The official NMA board
General Category => New Model Army => Topic started by: Barty on September 21, 2013, 08:56:21 AM
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Just got the new album through the door....first impressions are that I'm going to love it. A special mention for the song Knievel - it's just made me fill up....I hardly EVER cry but it set something off - my word, what a stunning piece of music.
Right, back to the CD player :)
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This song for me is among the very best NMA has ever done. It's so stripped down and simple but at the same time so amazingly touching both musically and lyrically. I just learned how to play it on my accoustic and I can't stop playing along :)
There's only one problem with Knievel - it's much too short ;)
Btw, fantastic album - already love it.
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It is a great song and gets you first listen, which is rare in any song by any artist so some achievement I think
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Pleased it wasn't just me who shed a tear Barty, first listen made me well up instantly.
An incredible song.
Had me Googling Evel Knievel to find out the significance of "gone for 29 days", which was the number of days spent in a coma following the Caesars Palace Crash.
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Definately a stand out track.... Right up there with Marrakesh...........
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Thought provoking lyrics in that song. I remember watching Evel Knievel doing his London bus jump at Wembley Stadium in May 1975 on telly. I was only four at the time, but for lads of that age it was a big thing. A very 1970s event, especially with Evel dressed in Elvis Presley type clothing.
You were watching to see him do the spectacular massive jump, but you kind of did want to see he fail and crash at the same time. I think there would have been a collective sense of disappointment if he had cleared the ramp and landed upright. I suppose the same can be said when watching similar stunts and dangerous magic tricks. Remember the News showing his crash repeatedly in slow motion, and regular updates on how many bones broken.
here is the London jump. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkbD4P6pTFA
Still have fond memories of my Mattel Evel Knievel doll, bike, and launcher.
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he does get a good thump from the bike right at the end, oooooooouch ;D :'(
(one of each so you'll never know if i watched it to see him fall or fly)
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Here it is...a GREAT video for "Knievel":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuqE8rWeE6Y
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Wow, very cool video, thanks for the link!
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Yes let's celebrate a song about a thug.
From wiki...
"According to a witness to the attack, Knievel struck repeated blows at Saltman's head, with Saltman blocking the blows with his left arm. Saltman's arm and wrist were shattered in several places before he fell to the ground unconscious. It took numerous surgeries and permanent metal plates in his arm to eventually give Saltman back the use of his arm.
After the assault of Saltman and time served in jail, Knievel lost most marketing endorsements and deals, including Harley-Davidson and Ideal Toys. In 1981, Saltman was awarded a $13 million judgment against Knievel in a civil trial, but never received money from Knievel or Knievel's estate."
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Indeed, thx for the link Guillaume - one of my many fave's from the new album.
Had me Googling Evel Knievel to find out the significance of "gone for 29 days", which was the number of days spent in a coma following the Caesars Palace Crash.
And cheers MARKXE, that brings it all together now.
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So NMA do a song about a thug that uses a baseball bat for vengeance. Sorry but my sympathies are with Shelly Saltman.
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Mersey, can't help but agree with you on this one. At first I really liked the song but the more I listened the more I remembered the actual man he was shown to be. While the song does not exactly glorify the man neither does it vilify him. Also watching the recent live videos i heard it said he was an interesting man, not a nice man but an interesting man - slight understatement. I also believe he was a poacher who would guide hunting parties onto Yellowstone National park.
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So NMA do a song about a thug that uses a baseball bat for vengeance.
come on ;)
JS said many times that the song wasn't neither praise nor bashing of Knievel, JS was interested by a particular part of Knievel's life, his daredevil attitude to life i guess ("the money i've won, the money i've lost"), the way Knievel put his life on map each time for his "job"...
what i want to say is that you can make songs on "not so cool" people if you want, all depends of your point of view and the angle/side the writer chooses for his own song.
Myself i quite like songs like the ones written by Faith No More and Trust starring Hitler and the french public enemy Jacques Mesrine ( "Crack Hitler" and "Le mitard")...are they really "dodgy" songs because of their subjects? ;)
depends on your point of view...and the writer's point of view! ;)
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Whilst I agree that Knievel was not a particularly nice man there are other songs written about controversial subjects and people who were controversial and not neccessarily "nice" people. I think it shouldn't detract from how good or bad the song is. If a song is good... it's good whereas if it is bad then it is bad. This particular song is really good in my opinion.
Nearly all people however good or bad have good and bad traits and aspects to their character. I don't know who said it but I remember hearing the phrase "Good people do bad things and bad people do good things" I think the song is really more about the showman side of Knievel's character and less about the deeper darker side of his personality that is less well known.
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I don't get it. You could apply the same logic to "nothing touches". a point of view from an elitist, royal son of empire. bastard!
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Oh come on...
I know this isn't going to be popular but...
I believe nothing should be taboo in the arts. But if you write or sing about a person or subejct that is emotive then it needs to be in perspective or qualified.
The recent comments give me the impression that it is ok to sing about Evel Knievel because the song is about his daring-do or his personal challenges. Denis Nilsen and Myra Hindly had poblematic lives and faced personal challenges. Howzabout a song about that nice Mr Saville. I've always admired his work for charity and he had personal challenges working in the mines as a Bevin boy during the war.
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To be honest, there is no doubt he was right bastard. But then the song doesn't say he was an angel does it?
"You only get from me, what you pay me for!".....
It just just lays out a collection of interesting trains of thought, about him, in the third person and sometimes from the first person. The chorus "Do they come to see a man fall, or to see him fly?" is such a strong and very prophetic question on all the high octane motor sports. Let's be honest, Formula 1, Superbikes, Motorcross, Stock Cars, Rallying... What ever sport it is, the corners are where the stands are most full. The straights are full of corporate guests 90% of the time, those people are the passing interest folks. The punters who pay their own money, regularly will be on the corners, "where the action is!"... Or "where there is crashes...", that's a well known fact........
What ever drove him to using a baseball bat who can say?
None of that should detract from the validity of what I see as a great song, that chorus carries so much weight, melodically and more importantly philosophically that alone gives the song alot of weight. To me anyway. Interesting topic for sure........
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Oh come on...
I know this isn't going to be popular but...
I believe nothing should be taboo in the arts. But if you write or sing about a person or subejct that is emotive then it needs to be in perspective or qualified.
The recent comments give me the impression that it is ok to sing about Evel Knievel because the song is about his daring-do or his personal challenges. Denis Nilsen and Myra Hindly had poblematic lives and faced personal challenges. Howzabout a song about that nice Mr Saville. I've always admired his work for charity and he had personal challenges working in the mines as a Bevin boy during the war.
You make an interesting point. Before he died, Saville was regarded as a Saint, not the most prolific sex offender the country has ever suffered
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In fairness, I always thought Saville was a creepy bastard. My mum n dad met him a few times at St Gemmas Hospice do's and we've had some rows about the "revelations"......... They won't have it that there was unpleasantness in the creepy get. I've met folks who saw him going into his St James Hospital "flat" with teenage girls in the early hours alot........ Sick old get, good riddance.
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Video for Knievel is now on youtube. Here is the link :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuqE8rWeE6Y&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL1UJwU23-kCjy9agb7bta-1jiqluSSY1O
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To be honest, there is no doubt he was right bastard. But then the song doesn't say he was an angel does it?
"You only get from me, what you pay me for!".....
no, but the last line does say he is in heaven
in all honesty i think it is that line that doesn't sit right with me.
p.s. Stoney, was that you in Bishop car park on friday afternoon?
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It was indeed mate, you shoulda said sumat, I was enjoying the dubious pleasure that is Bishop Auckland on foot mate........ Afriendly face makes all the difference! lmao
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It was indeed mate, you shoulda said sumat, I was enjoying the dubious pleasure that is Bishop Auckland on foot mate........ Afriendly face makes all the difference! lmao
i wasn't sure it was you as i think your beard is much longer since last i saw you, neither did i have my glasses on so your little group were a little blurry , plus as i'm sure you are aware the faster you get out of bish town centre the better
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To be honest, there is no doubt he was right bastard. But then the song doesn't say he was an angel does it?
"You only get from me, what you pay me for!".....
no, but the last line does say he is in heaven
in all honesty i think it is that line that doesn't sit right with me.
p.s. Stoney, was that you in Bishop car park on friday afternoon?
Since the song was written as if Knievel is telling the story,he probably expects to go to heaven(if there's such a place)Bet hell is full of people who expected to be in heaven.Christian Militia springs to mind.IMHO it's a great song and an interesting thread.Suppose there's loads of songs with touchy subject material.Diane by Husker Du/Therapy springs to mind
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So, as long as it is "a good song" then thats ok then. Sorry.
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At the end of the day I don't think the song is deifying Knievel, perhaps we're looking too deeply into this subject...if you look deeply into anyone's life you will see things you don't like. I'm vegan and despise mistreatment of animals but that's not to say I refuse to associate with mere veggies(!) and meat eaters...I don't, for one second, condone the bad things Knievel did....I just think that we maybe shouldn't dwell too much on the man's life, from high upon our saintly perches. None of us is perfect, we've all caused suffering, directly or indirectly to other beings.
If people don't like the song or subject matter, fair enough. But I don't think it's meant as some glorification of nastiness.....I don't assume the band hyper-analysed the man before writing it.
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Barty, I love this and may just steal it as a quote mate!
I just think that we maybe shouldn't dwell too much on the man's life, from high upon our saintly perches. None of us is perfect, we've all caused suffering, directly or indirectly to other beings.
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Be my guest, Stoney ;)
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So, as long as it is "a good song" then thats ok then. Sorry.
IF Justin hadn't penned the lyrics to this song,I(for one)would never have known more about Knievel(via this thread)To me he was just a bloke who drove over buses etc.I now know all about the baseball bat attack etc and what happened afterwards.Yes he was an unsavoury character,but should that mean we can't write a song about him.The song doesn't glorify him IMHO,it just tells a story(or part of a story)of a man who put his neck on the line every time he went to work,knowing that most of his income came from people half hoping he'd fail.
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Blimy Barty, that's uncharacteristically deep of you !!! , but very good point, well said old bean :)
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I think we all know by now we shouldn't be lured into personal judgmeñts about songs - JS' is coming from a perspective that's all! It is however a remarkable song - first listen = hooked :)
TXP
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I love the song and I do feel that really if anyone really wants to look deeply into the man behind the song and somehow feels offended by it then it's like those people who moan about sex and violence on TV... you have an off button.
Don't listen to it.
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I do not understand the view that “as long a it’s a good song that’s ok” OR “! personally love this song.”
Nothing is taboo but if you write a song about an emotive subject then you have to be careful.
Regardless of whether it’s a good “tune” or not then I challenge anyone to stand next to Shelly Saltman’s children at a NMA gig and explain whilst NMA play Knievel.
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Sorry mate, not trying to be a goon or anything, but I would. I honestly don't think there's is any real glorification in the lyrics. It's not saying, "here's a hero worship him".... or "look how hard done by he was".....
It's just, "here's his story....... take it or leave it!"......
there's books exploring the relative merits of Rommel as a general, there's no doubt he fought on the wrong side, but his tactics and the way he treated his men were and are known to be ahead of his time in alot of ways. Montgomery was by all account a right bastard to those who worked directly under him. As I recall anyway.....
"The winners re-write history..." it's just the way it is.
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The chorus "Do they come to see a man fall, or to see him fly?" is such a strong and very prophetic question on all the high octane motor sports. Let's be honest, Formula 1, Superbikes, Motorcross, Stock Cars, Rallying... What ever sport it is, the corners are where the stands are most full. The straights are full of corporate guests 90% of the time, those people are the passing interest folks. The punters who pay their own money, regularly will be on the corners, "where the action is!"... Or "where there is crashes...", that's a well known fact........
To me, THIS is the only thing the song is about, and not about glorifying Evel. It is simply about the spectator in us that really wants to see a crash and not to see someone achieve. Many (most?) people in those stands are ONLY there for the crashes. This, on a deeper level, can applied to many areas of life, no?
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The chorus "Do they come to see a man fall, or to see him fly?" is such a strong and very prophetic question on all the high octane motor sports. Let's be honest, Formula 1, Superbikes, Motorcross, Stock Cars, Rallying... What ever sport it is, the corners are where the stands are most full. The straights are full of corporate guests 90% of the time, those people are the passing interest folks. The punters who pay their own money, regularly will be on the corners, "where the action is!"... Or "where there is crashes...", that's a well known fact........
To me, THIS is the only thing the song is about, and not about glorifying Evel. It is simply about the spectator in us that really wants to see a crash and not to see someone achieve. Many (most?) people in those stands are ONLY there for the crashes. This, on a deeper level, can applied to many areas of life, no?
Exactly. And so many people came to see Knievel crash, that he - on a personal level - well and truly did. Was it this that made him into the man he was? I think there is so much more to the lyrics of this song than meets the ear....
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Think I must be in the minority on here, but I don't rate the song at all (subject matter aside). One of the two on the album that I skip.
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Just read through this thread, some interesting points of view and thoughts on a man who I must say was a legend when I was growing up.
Given the tabloid presses last couple of years I'm very suprised that more reporters are not beaten up, Milly Dowlers case leaping to mind as a starter for ten.
Not that I would condone any such action, just saying.
The song surely is just about a man, who was living a life on the edge, in search of fame and fortune it does not glorify him, its just a short condensed and bloody good song about one of lifes legendry figures. Live it is an amazing track.
Anyway an explanation of the song is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5kiwZ986hU
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I must be naive, because I never even realized until now that Evel Knievel was such a world-wide celebrity. He seemed almost purely an "American" thing growing up in the '70s. Maybe it was that jumpsuit. ;-)
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I must be naive, because I never even realized until now that Evel Knievel was such a world-wide celebrity. He seemed almost purely an "American" thing growing up in the '70s. Maybe it was that jumpsuit. ;-)
Really ?, I though the Wembley jump over London busses was his most famous, but I suppose that's from the view point of the little lad I was in mid 1970s England.
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So NMA do a song about a thug that uses a baseball bat for vengeance. Sorry but my sympathies are with Shelly Saltman.
I suppose of lot of this depends of how you want to judge someone. By their good deeds or bad deeds. Knievel certainly was a good show man, loved by kids across the world in the 70s for his daring deeds- Marshall Gill being one of them, hence the song. Yes he was bad in his other actions as you point out. But surely overall such a well know figure and icon should be more remembered for his job as a stuntman rather than his mistakes.
It kind of makes me think of Gazza. Is he to be remembered as one of the England greats, or a man with a severe drink problem?
Overall for me the song raises the moral question from the line, did you come to see a man fall, or to see him fly. To me this is not just applicable to dangerous sports or stunts, but in life in general. Do we enjoy watching people fail, or fall from grace. ?
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Yes he was bad in his other actions as you point out.
I always find it interesting how people tend to judge other people based on what someone else said or wrote. Especially if they never even met that person. I mean, come on, we are not talking about a mass murderer here.
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Well, yes, that was the point I was trying to make. Feel mis-quoted :D
So, I will quote myself
"But surely overall such a well know figure and icon should be more remembered for his job as a stuntman rather than his mistakes. "
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The song is about Knievels life in general and his life was lived in a blaze of media attention around his acts of careless bravery. The chorus is not just about the stunts. In a lot of ways the song represents anyone who lives their lives in the media spotlight.
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Yes he was bad in his other actions as you point out.
I always find it interesting how people tend to judge other people based on what someone else said or wrote. Especially if they never even met that person. I mean, come on, we are not talking about a mass murderer here.
Out of curiousity what were his other misdemeanours? Im aware of the Saltman incident and can even remember reading it at the time and the reasons for it. His criminal activity in his youth which you cant condone, you could argue was counterbalanced with the positives of his showjump career. It strikes me the two are at either end of his career.
I think he was a greedy showman with a special skill who set out to make a lot of money. And with money and fame comes its own problems. The little I do know or have read, personally I think he was a very unpleasant man who also did some good deeds and his skills were used in a positive way. I cant say he meant a lot to me at the time though.
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The chorus "Do they come to see a man fall, or to see him fly?" is such a strong and very prophetic question on all the high octane motor sports. Let's be honest, Formula 1, Superbikes, Motorcross, Stock Cars, Rallying... What ever sport it is, the corners are where the stands are most full. The straights are full of corporate guests 90% of the time, those people are the passing interest folks. The punters who pay their own money, regularly will be on the corners, "where the action is!"... Or "where there is crashes...", that's a well known fact........
To me, THIS is the only thing the song is about, and not about glorifying Evel. It is simply about the spectator in us that really wants to see a crash and not to see someone achieve. Many (most?) people in those stands are ONLY there for the crashes. This, on a deeper level, can applied to many areas of life, no?
I really must take exception to some of these comments. Rather than being a well known fact, I think it's a common misconception that motor racing / motorsport fans just want to see crashes. Having been to countless motor racing meetings over the years ranging from club level events to F1, and some bike meetings, and also spectated at rallies, I think I can speak from experience, and say that the majority of people who go regularly to these events, i.e. genuine motorsport enthusiasts, are either following a particular driver or team, or enjoy a particular series, and go to as many rounds as they can, or just enjoy watching racing. Primarily, the action that most want to see is great racing, with brilliant overtaking moves, and seeing someone winning. Crashes, when they happen, undeniably get the pulse racing I won't deny, but the primary response when that happens in front of you is shock, and concern that the driver, or rider is ok. I can definitely say there is NO enjoyment in seeing a crash for most genuine followers. There may be a few who want to see this no doubt, but to my mind they are not real motorsport enthusiasts. To say that "many (most ?)" are ONLY there for crashes is just plain wrong.
I do think the fall or fly (failure or success) lyrics apply far more to the kind of stunts that Evel used to perform. These were marketed as being dangerous challenges for one man - will he or won't he do it? More like a motorised circus performer such as a trapeze artist or tightrope walker. With these sort of stunts / jumps, it's far more likely that what people want to see is someone risking all for the glory, as that was what they were all about.
Having said all that, I for one love this song for it's atmospheric sound, and Justin's singing, and whatever Evel did in his time that was bad is irrelevant to the song. As people have said, it doesn't seek to glorify him in any way.
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That's why I said "many" (and "most?" because I am only making an assumption). Of course this is not the attitude of the true fans/enthusiasts of the sport, but isn't the speed and danger itself a big part of the attraction with this type of thing? I mean, if the cars only went 40mph, who'd watch it? Not that people want to see anyone get hurt or killed, but there is always real danger and everyone watching is aware of that.
The same goes for the man in the high-wire in the circus. No one wants him to fall and die, but if he was only two feet off the ground doing the exact same thing, who'd watch?
How many people watch hockey for the game and how many for the fights? How many for both? All my friends are hockey fans and DO like the sport, but when there are no fights they all seem to complain, haha.
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The speed is certainly part of the excitement I agree, and the noise, but I'd much rather see a car dancing right on the edge of adhesion round a corner, but with the driver controlling it and making it round, than running wide and hitting the barriers. It's seeing someone controlling and mastering the speed / danger that's most impressive.
Ironically, you often get the best actual 'racing' with slower cars. Whenever you have very fast single seater racing cars going round somewhere like Brands Hatch, such as F3 or above they tend to just get strung out, and you don't see much close racing. Some of the best races I've seen with lead changes every lap and jockeying for position at most corners have been with things like Minis, or Caterhams that have the aerodynamics of a brick !
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Well, you cerainly know your racing. ;) :D
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Form what I heard so far of the new album the quote of Justin (that one which underlined that it was nit the typical rock band in a room or something like that) perfectly fits. The songs and lyrics are beautiful and somehow more "
thoughtful". The use of drums is very different they are very much present through most of the songs in a more marrtial and tribal way at the same time. Guitar much less.
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Well, you cerainly know your racing. ;) :D
'tis my favourite sport ! :)