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General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: Heno on January 28, 2014, 09:26:52 PM
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its a question that I am sure so many people in the world who believe in religion ask themselves all the time. the issue must be that others would have them believe that if it keeps them part of the flock (nott meant to be only Christian analogies)
Or maybe a realist. IMO, all religion is not good. It creates oppression, self loathing, division, and gives excuse and justification for so many conflicts past and present. I do find it strange that in these modern times of mass communication and hopefully, enlightenment that religion continues to prosper and dominate so many peoples lives. -- although as Heno pointed out, so often not by their own choice.
Live life now, not for the "reward" afterwards.
i'm not sure all religion is not good. i'm not saying its true or based on fact. but personal religion is a freedom of choice and as long as the doctrine is not militantly enforced, as long as it is not part of an organised religion and does not disadvantage you for not being part of it even if your fundamental beliefs are similar then it should be acceptable.
Well, let's see what Mr Capaldi thinks... ;)
Back on track... the whole religion thing makes me edgy. For the record, I DON'T hate anyone who has truly (and non-oppressive) religious beliefs... this ain't a great world to live in and if someone has some comfort from their beliefs, then good luck to 'em. For example, my Mum isn't dealing well with the death of my Grandad, but every now and again she finds a 'sign' (which I won't go into, it's a bit personal) and if that makes her happy, then fine.
I just can't stand this BS that excuses some truly horrific behaviour that, quite frankly, belongs in the middle ages and if you disagree with it, those who believe in it throw in the 'racism' card. It ain't racism. It's about believing in humanity and treating others well.
i can go along with this. i can tolerate the existence of religion and i do understand and appreciate what people get from it. there have been so many wrongs done in the name of religion but also many many rights. i accept that western religions are bashed about simply as a distraction from the activities of devious corporate and government interests. hell, the whole middle east conflict is staged for these reasons. that said, who are we to call out anyone else's religion. after all, religion is usually based on someone's words, someone's beliefs, and if you feel you can align with that then you might as well. but ones it becomes militant then its wrong.
i'm an atheist and i think i am somewhat spiritual but that's a personal thing. i dislike organised atheism as much as anything
for the record i think agnostics should get off the fence ::)
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Fine words, Heno... for the record, I was referring to the awful acts that I think we all know about and in the name (misguidedly) of what religion...
My opinion about 'going to hell...'? If you have led a decent life, been good to your fellow people and, basically, been a good person, then it doesn't matter what religion you tied your flag to, if any. You should take the upward staircase. Enjoy, I'm told it's nice up there.
Anyone who says otherwise has an agenda that probably doesn't relate to anything decent in the human world. So **** 'em.
IMO, anyway...
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music can say so much more sometimes
nofx - i'm going to help for this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXnhhs6tIvg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXnhhs6tIvg)
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While religion is not for me, I have always tried to respect the beliefs of others, whatever their religion may be. I am aware it does give people help and comfort in their lives. I can acknowledge that much good is done in the world in the name of religion, particularly charity work.
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While religion is not for me, I have always tried to respect the beliefs of others, whatever their religion may be. I am aware it does give people help and comfort in their lives. I can acknowledge that much good is done in the world in the name of religion, particularly charity work.
That pretty much sums up how I feel. I also agree with Master Ray that if you have led a fairly good life on balance and been nicer to people than not nice to them then I expect if there turns out to be a god he (or she) is not going to turn you away from the pearly gates just because you haven't followed some strict religious doctrine whilst you were alive.
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there is no such thing as god
but if there was i would imagine she'd be pissed off with the way people have used her name to impose their beliefs on everyone
but that said, this is more abut the injustice and oppression thats is totally supported by those in power. religion is no different to money and poverty is no different to being oppressed without recourse to the people who judge you.
when these controls fade we will see the new rules being enforced. rules that have been quietly put in place over the last while to ensure that your movement, your interests, your conversations etc are all liable to be monitored and that you can be arrested and held on suspicion for as long at they like. that will be the new fear. not hell after life but actually hell on earth.
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Personally I wish humankind had invented or discovered another way in which to come to terms with its own mortality. Not saying I have the alternative answer, but I wish there were one. In world history, its not that long ago we were burning "witches" in the name of god. Religion today is used to oppress peoples, especially women in a way that does not sit well with me, and still used as justification for many conflicts.
As to the question , will we roast in hell? , no we will not, because it does not exist. It was invented by people who wanted others to behave and act in their preferred way.
Again, must say, I do respect other peoples religious choices. I come from a staunch Catholic background, and know how important it can be to people.
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I'm glad we have the whole Hell thing settled. I was beginning to get scared by all this global warming talk going around!
As for religion, I find it fascinating to read about but sad in it's application. My reason for not believing is simple. If there was any kind of god out there, why would he/she make the world such a miserable place? Wars and disease seem to be out of control. Surely that can't be the plan.
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yeah, hell was never in the original line up. its use was to create huge fear in people from a very early age. it has worked. ireland, a very devout catholic country for a very long time, still suffers from the guilt associated with sinning in all parts of life even when things are not a sin against the church. its sad and the recent financial upheavals have only amplified this with people returning to god and also the god squad encouraging people to find solutions in their churches.
humans did find many ways to deal with mortality. they were just hijacked by those who nothing else to offer. life was based on functions that allows small settlements to thrive through an almost anarchic doctrine. inevitably there was surplus and whoever control this controlled everything. when things failed it had to be explained. enter the religious explanations: it failed because we have angered the god of the harvest. we must pay more tribute. and so religion took control as the success was associated with the same control.
heres a link to a bloke who reckons they have found life on mars and are afraid of the consequences. http://www.popsci.com/article/science/lawsuit-alleges-nasa-failing-investigate-alien-life? (http://www.popsci.com/article/science/lawsuit-alleges-nasa-failing-investigate-alien-life?)
i honestly hope that when we finally have proof that it does not show us as the most intelligent life form in the universe. that would be a sad day for everything
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We seem to be "singing from the same hymn sheet" ::) on that one
When life on other planets is discovered, I am sure the Churches will rewrite the history of the Universe to include that in God great plan. Just as it did 500 years ago when it was proven the Earth revolves the Sun, and not tuther way round.
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even then the greeks had proven it a long time previous and it was decided to suppress it. can't allow the rabble to think for themselves.
and yes, i think there a few of us on the same page on this subject.
now we need something with a little confrontation and conflict to get our creative juices flowing.
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Beleif in a God or Creator? Well something made us and put us here. Belief in a religion because another man says its the right one?? No not for me. A creator is too big a concept to even possibly understand, who or what it was and why people do very bad things if there is a God. And as for hell well I guess logically it was an early control mechanism, if you dont do what this book says you'll go to hell, although interestingly I recall Max Von Sydow in an interview saying in Scandinavia the devil was not looked on as an evil being, more a foolish one.
Personally I think when we die we create new life when whatever fluids are in us drain into the earth. Im not entirely convinced the spirit we talk about isnt just some brain function or chemical compound.
But then we'll never know til it happens ;)
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Maybe the Hindu's got it right. Hundreds of Gods to worship. Maybe not.........
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Make up your own God, its all good :)
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Just be the best you can. I think that about sums it up for me. Im fascinated with how lots of Gods for different things became one depending on what culture. Trying to make sense of it all from our very beginnings!!
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i've read so many books about it all. but the trouble is that they are all written by historians. not contemporaries. and that inevitably means theres interpretation rather than fact. what i do trust is the fact that religion was created to answer questions of the unknown. to explain things like nature and death. hence its fantastical stories. now that the unknown from years ago is actually known then religion looks stupid to some.
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I dunno. In some ways its a search for understanding. I dont think mankind has all the answers to our existance. Religion is just one.
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I dunno. In some ways its a search for understanding.
there ya go
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Am gonna keep my answer simple and not get into a big debate whilst respecting everyone's view point.
For me when your dead that is it ,there isn't any heaven or hell do not forget that only christians believe in the devil.
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Im not entirely convinced the spirit we talk about isnt just some brain function or chemical compound.
But then we'll never know til it happens ;)
There are tons of non-religious references to a person's soul. Whether it carries over in an afterlife is another story.
I'm a big fan of Bad Religion and love the line from The Handshake:
I believe in unity, and I am willing to compromise,
But I'm not gonna lie or sell my soul
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I used to take issue with the Christian teaching that those who do not believe in God won't go to heaven.
Over the years I have come to understand that they are right, for if what you believe shapes your entire life why wouldn't it also shape your afterlife. Especially if your afterlife may simply be your last thought or emotion which without the constraints of space and time may well be never-ending.
I'm not explaining this very well but it makes sense to me.
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I was brought up a devout catholic, and I have visited some places that have put me spiritually at peace with myself.
However, I am now lapsed very lapsed and have little faith in any organised religion, primarily because of the hatred and mistrust that extreme and fundamental beliefs in religion seem to bring out in people who believe and those that don't.
Do I try to be a good person who values and treats others as I hope to be valued and treated , I'd like to thinks so. To I have hatred of any particular religion? No. Do I have a dislike of people who commit atrocities in the name of one god or another or who use their place in the world to hold down others - absolutely
Do I think that we are the highest intelligent life forms in the the Universe….no probably not , but I don't believe there is an old bloke with a long white beard be it Jehovah , Mohammmed , God, Buddha what ever you want to call him/ her waiting to cast me in to eternal damnation because I don't believe or worship.
Man as a species requires to be able to explain their existence and will still be doing the same long after I have gone
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I used to take issue with the Christian teaching that those who do not believe in God won't go to heaven.
Catholic teaching used accept that, but Vatican II changed that. We accept that we're not the only true religion and now believe that other Christian, Jewish and Islamic faiths will go to heaven.
And I really like this new pope. He opens the door for Hindu, Buddhist, etc ... as well as atheist and agnostics.
Given that — and this is the key point — God’s mercy has no limits, if you go to him with a sincere and repentant heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.
Sin, even for those who have no faith, is when one goes against their conscience.
To listen and to obey to (one’s conscience) means to decide oneself in relation to what’s perceived as good and evil. And this decision is fundamental to determining the good or evil of our actions.
The question for those who do not believe in God is to follow their own conscience. Sin, even for a non-believer, is when one goes against one's conscience.
To listen and to follow your conscience means that you understand the difference between good and evil.
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I was brought up a devout catholic, and I have visited some places that have put me spiritually at peace with myself.
However, I am now lapsed very lapsed and have little faith in any organised religion, primarily because of the hatred and mistrust that extreme and fundamental beliefs in religion seem to bring out in people who believe and those that don't.
Do I try to be a good person who values and treats others as I hope to be valued and treated , I'd like to thinks so. To I have hatred of any particular religion? No. Do I have a dislike of people who commit atrocities in the name of one god or another or who use their place in the world to hold down others - absolutely
Do I think that we are the highest intelligent life forms in the the Universe….no probably not , but I don't believe there is an old bloke with a long white beard be it Jehovah , Mohammmed , God, Buddha what ever you want to call him/ her waiting to cast me in to eternal damnation because I don't believe or worship.
Man as a species requires to be able to explain their existence and will still be doing the same long after I have gone
Ive also been to spiritual places but usually these are remote places, where Ive come to realise there is a greater purpose and we're a very small piece in a bigger picture. Ive also met very religious people who have an aura about them. Maybe inner peace is the key to spirituality?
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I was brought up a devout catholic, and I have visited some places that have put me spiritually at peace with myself.
However, I am now lapsed very lapsed and have little faith in any organised religion, primarily because of the hatred and mistrust that extreme and fundamental beliefs in religion seem to bring out in people who believe and those that don't.
Do I try to be a good person who values and treats others as I hope to be valued and treated , I'd like to thinks so. To I have hatred of any particular religion? No. Do I have a dislike of people who commit atrocities in the name of one god or another or who use their place in the world to hold down others - absolutely
Do I think that we are the highest intelligent life forms in the the Universe….no probably not , but I don't believe there is an old bloke with a long white beard be it Jehovah , Mohammmed , God, Buddha what ever you want to call him/ her waiting to cast me in to eternal damnation because I don't believe or worship.
Man as a species requires to be able to explain their existence and will still be doing the same long after I have gone
Ive also been to spiritual places but usually these are remote places, where Ive come to realise there is a greater purpose and we're a very small piece in a bigger picture. Ive also met very religious people who have an aura about them. Maybe inner peace is the key to spirituality?
I know exactly what you mean I've watched the sunset in Formentara looking out to Es Vedra and felt a great tranquility, sat at the Grotto in Lourdes at Midnight and known that inner peace and watched the monk who walked the roads of Yorkshire fully at peace with himself and the world
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Do I try to be a good person who values and treats others as I hope to be valued and treated , I'd like to thinks so. To I have hatred of any particular religion? No. Do I have a dislike of people who commit atrocities in the name of one god or another or who use their place in the world to hold down others - absolutely
There's my philosophy in a nutshell.
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i'm an atheist and i think i am somewhat spiritual but that's a personal thing. i dislike organised atheism as much as anything
for the record i think agnostics should get off the fence ::)
We have absolutely no proof whether God/creator/gods etc. exists or does not and never will. It's impossible to kill/disprove abstract ideas that have been around since the beginning of humanity. If nothing comes from nothing, then where does nothing come from? ???
It's this reason why I can not be an atheists. It's not really being "on the fence" but the fact that we will never be certain of this . Though I very strongly believe that there is no hell or a God who controls everyone/everything. I personally believe that "God" is more than likely a metaphor for nature/universe and does not need to be worshiped. It just is. However I am not 100 % sure of this.
What people don't seem to grasp is that atheism also takes faith. It takes faith to be 100 Percent certain that nothing exists beyond this world. Agnosticism take none because it is basically uncertainty. If you are certain that God does not exist , then do we really even exist?
I was also brought up in a very Catholic house-hold and was a priests nightmare as an adolescence with all my unanswerable questions. ;D
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Fine words, Heno... for the record, I was referring to the awful acts that I think we all know about and in the name (misguidedly) of what religion...
My opinion about 'going to hell...'? If you have led a decent life, been good to your fellow people and, basically, been a good person, then it doesn't matter what religion you tied your flag to, if any. You should take the upward staircase. Enjoy, I'm told it's nice up there.
Anyone who says otherwise has an agenda that probably doesn't relate to anything decent in the human world. So **** 'em.
IMO, anyway...
I was going to respond to this post, but Master Ray, you've said everything I'd have wanted to say, anyway!
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Will we roast in Hell ?
I'm blummin roasting here now thank you !
(http://www.4smileys.com/smileys/seasons-smileys/hot_smiley.gif)
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What people don't seem to grasp is that atheism also takes faith. It takes faith to be 100 Percent certain that nothing exists beyond this world. Agnosticism take none because it is basically uncertainty. If you are certain that God does not exist , then do we really even exist?
I have to disagree with that first line. atheism is "without". it is without the concept of god. not without god. so no faith involved.
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What people don't seem to grasp is that atheism also takes faith. It takes faith to be 100 Percent certain that nothing exists beyond this world. Agnosticism take none because it is basically uncertainty. If you are certain that God does not exist , then do we really even exist?
I have to disagree with that first line. atheism is "without". it is without the concept of god. not without god. so no faith involved.
Think I agree with you there Heno. Atheism does not take faith in a belief, it takes conviction in the face of general belief ???
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Maybe not but I could not be an atheist and neither could many people. Maybe "faith" was the wrong word. Maybe i am getting spirituality mixed up with religion.