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General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: Pol on September 14, 2014, 02:59:19 PM
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Would like to hear other peoples opinions about this
What would this mean for the rest of the UK would the north of England demand more powers either way Would certain Spanish and Canadian regions demand a vote of there own.Would Scotland be able to make a go of it on its own.
Ok before i give my opinion i will give you a bit of my background. I was brought in a labour voting moderate left wing working class family in a council estate in Kilmarnock.When i first left school i voted labour like most other people in the town. As i got a bit older my father in law was a SNP local councillor and listening to him i started voting SNP. At the last European elections i voted for the Green Party.
So its probably hardly surprising that i will be voting yes on Thursday. My main reason for this is that hardly anyone voted conservative in Scotland yet we again we ended with them in Government. Tony Blair also sold the sole of the Labour party with getting into bed with George Bush its certainly not the Labour party that my parents voted for.
Now im not saying for a second that if it happens everything will be great, yes there might be hardships along way but lets face it things aren't too great right now. A yes vote would be the opportunity to change things and if it did go tits up at least we took the chance If we vote no we can never complain again when the torys hit us with another bedroom tax or anything else
Can't believe some of crap some people have been saying the last week or so Asda n co trying to frighten us by saying prices might go up, why the Fck should they and why the Fck would we shop there if they did Anyone else hear that German banker saying Scotland would turn into pre war Nazi Germany if we vote lol n wtf
One bad thing though the rest of the UK would probably be left with a conservative government for good if we do vote yes
Lets hope after Thursday whatever the outcome we can all get on and build for the future
Say Aye !
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Good post, Pol... and I think that if the Scottish folks truly demand it, they should get what they want.
I can't claim to be an expert on Scotland and all things Scottish... so if anything I say is ignorant, please don't take offence!
I just worry that much of the 'yes' vote is based around being ruled by a government that the vast majority of English folks aren't very happy with... the Scotland independence vote isn't something that can be reversed by a new government coming in next year. It's permanent. And I'd love to know how the Scottish economy will react if all UK funding is cut off... what is the principle industry there? I know that there are oil fields out there somewhere.. is that enough?
I'm sure that Scotland will then go to the EU... well, that hasn't worked out well for other countries, assuming that Scotland get in, which is not a guarantee seeing how the likes of Greece and Ireland have gotten on recently... the EU overlords might be looking at those countries and thinking 'hmmm, perhaps we should be a bit more selective...'
And it seems like there's a bit of unpleasantness going on if people want to vote 'NO'... OK, it might be media hyperbole, but if someone is being threatened for their opinions then that's bullying and I ******* hate bullies...
Bottom line... I'm not convinced that it might be the best way to go. But if what the Scots want, then that's what they should get. If Hadians Wall needs to be rebuilt, then so be it. And I wish Scotland all the best, I genuinely hope it all works out well for you guys.
:)
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The other big earning industries are whiskey food and tourism
And yes nobody should feel bullied or intimidated into not expressing their opinion
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Pol,you seem to be basing your vote on protest grounds? This thing is bigger than that, and will be historically significant surely? :)
Im half Welsh and half English, and also want to vote yes. England doesn't usually get what it votes for either as far as parties are concerned, Scottish people tend to forget that. plus it is totally outrageous that Scottish MPs sit in Westminster voting on issues that effect me, and I have no say on what is decided in the Scottish government. It is also disgusting and undemocratic that Cameron/Milliband/Brown are going to give huge powers to Scotland if you vote no, powers the Welsh, Irish and English will not get and did not vote to give away. So I'm sorry but it very much feels like a win/win for you either way.
I think you should vote yes and lets get started on our own destinys as friends, not siamese twins! :)
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In Great Britain you can't get much further south from Scotland than me! To set my own stall out. I feel an affinity and identity to Kent - it's where I was born, bred and live. Beyond that though I don't feel English, British, European or anything. Personally I don't get it but I certainly do understand why it's important to others.
But I am English and within this United Kingdom/Great Britain it's probably fair to say that out of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, on balance England came out Top Dog. Not a boast or sneer, just how I see it. So if I came from one of those parts of the Union that had been co-opted in and not done quite so well I'd probably look and see myself as living in one of the last crumbs of the British empire and wonder why the rest of the bleedin' world had got independence but we were still governed from Westminster. I don't think I'd like that. I'd have to vote yes.
What practical difference it would make and what the implications of a Yes vote would be I have no idea, quite frankly no-one seems to really know and it all depends on whether they are trying to inspire people or frighten them and seeing as I don't get to vote I cant't be arsed to follow it all ;D
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i'm sort of the fence on this one. i'm concerned for peoples future if they cut the cord with england. national pride doesn't put food on the table for those that don't have a job. its the start of an economy and so there will be massive incentives for companies and entrepreneurs to start there. but the consequence must be increased taxes and less benefits, which is a real problem for those who depend on the state.
why wouldn't they propose a proper steadfast plan that eases scotland to standing alone over an extended period of time?
i get the idea that scotland has no love of tories so where will the opposition come from in their own parliament?
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Its an interesting one. The UK is pretty much what London wants but a million miles away from the rest of England, so for Scotland I can only imagine how alienating it is. I guess its already got its own laws and I can see how its appealing to self govern itself.
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read this morning that the bookies are offering 5 to 1 on for a no vote
i think everyone with a sterling business is in favour of a no vote and between banks, bookies, industry, they are all looking at economics and not nationalism as being the issue. one more step to a global government i guess
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"quite frankly no-one seems to really know and it all depends on whether they are trying to inspire people or frighten them and seeing as I don't get to vote I cant't be arsed to follow it all "
Best sentence I've read here. Fantastic. I cant and wont, as I am not Scottish, say what will happen to them in depth if it a yes vote. I think they will struggle, but it wont be my business. Fact is as Anna says for the rest of us I suspect we just carry on carrying on and xmas is on the way! :D
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To be honest, I'm trying to get to the bottom of what would be a good idea for Scotland, but it's getting pretty muddy the more you read up on it... ???
Now I'm no economist (to put it mildly) but my understanding of the situation so far is that Scotland wants to be independent from the UK... fine... but they're still trying to wrangle it so that The UK will still have to bail them out if it all goes tits-up... not to mention expecting guaranteed acceptance into the EU (excuse me, The UK is a member of the EU, not Scotland, you're a new country, you'll have to make do until you're accepted... no guarantee that will happen...)
Um, sorry guys, if you want to be out on your own, then you're out on your own!
Again, please correct me if I'm being stupid, but it seems like they're wanting it both ways... :-\
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I got to disagree that we would expect anyone to bail us out if it all goes tits up. Its a big gamble we could end up doing well for ourselves. Think you may be referring to the banks moving their names plates to London so that they can have Bank of England lender of last resort.
On the European issue yes i think most people expect to allowed into the European union fairly quickly the flip side to that is if Ukip and the tory back benchers get their way we will get voted out of Europe and most Scots definitely don't want that.
Look its a matter of who you trust and who you don't for every negative there is a positive There will be a whole load of issues to work out if it does happen UK , European and worldwide
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I got to disagree that we would expect anyone to bail us out if it all goes tits up. Its a big gamble we could end up doing well for ourselves. Think you may be referring to the banks moving their names plates to London so that they can have Bank of England lender of last resort.
On the European issue yes i think most people expect to allowed into the European union fairly quickly the flip side to that is if Ukip and the tory back benchers get their way we will get voted out of Europe and most Scots definitely don't want that.
Look its a matter of who you trust and who you don't for every negative there is a positive There will be a whole load of issues to work out if it does happen UK , European and worldwide
As I said, Pol, I'm not an expert so hopefully no offence caused.
Lets see what tomorrow brings, eh? All the best, whatever happens.
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I said up there how I felt about this. And that is my truth but if I was being selfish I'd have to plead with every Scottish Person to vote Yes. Purely in the hope that a Yes win might kick off a wave of change across this whole bloody Island. It might just force us out our apathy. Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, England - yeah lets all grab power back from the greedy slugs in Westminster. Because as it stands none of us get the government we vote for - it was rigged back in history.
Have a good day tomorrow Pol, hope the Sun shines for you all up there :-*
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No offence was taken Ray I don't proclaim to know half of it either
Thanks Anna i believe your right things definitely need to change
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If Scotland leaves Great Britain, will we then be
Little Britain ???
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If Scotland leaves Great Britain, will we then be
Little Britain ???
LOL. Yes, I was wondering that.
On a more serious note, I was wondering who actually gets to be Scottish. Or is that already established? Is it everyone who lives there now or who was born there or has Scottish ancestry? Can you be Scottish and, say, English? I guess the same goes for who actually gets to vote. Excuse my ignorance if this is a stupid question.
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Everybody 16 and over who lives in Scotland was entitled to vote.
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Thanks Pol.
So have the criteria for citizenship been discussed yet or is that something that will be decided if or when it happens?
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The English living in Scotland can vote, but the Scottish living in England cannot. They were interviewing people from the Midlands living and working in Scotland. They said they would be moving back if goes "yes".
Assume Scots in England will be pondering the same issue. Apparently in my region alone there are around 67,000 Scots. That said, if you are Scottish or English, then you are where ever you live.
Interesting times though.
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Scottish independence- that often reminds me of this song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLitqmgj6jA (Stivell/Kerr- Scots are right)
Conflicts and history? Are both celts? Religion? Is that still present and important?
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Religion and bigotry are still sadly present especially in the west of Scotland. Yes its small minority and things are definitely improving I'm in Glasgow every week nearly and have never had any problems Ok I'm non religious and proudly wear a pentagram and go to rock pubs I like Glasgow the people are friendly ok you get the odd bam like everywhere else
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The English living in Scotland can vote, but the Scottish living in England cannot. They were interviewing people from the Midlands living and working in Scotland. They said they would be moving back if goes "yes".
Assume Scots in England will be pondering the same issue. Apparently in my region alone there are around 67,000 Scots. That said, if you are Scottish or English, then you are where ever you live.
Interesting times though.
Thanks Shush. Yes, certainly interesting and potentially quite messy, I guess. Would that mean that somebody who was born and raised in Scotland but doesn't live there would no longer be Scottish unless they actually moved back to Scotland?
I'm probably over-complicating things but I can see how these factors could become issues in the future depending which direction the new Scottish government takes. Basically, at some point they will have to draw a line in the sand and decide on who is Scottish and who isn't which won't be as easy or obvious as it may seem right now.
Living on the other side of the world, I really don't have an opinion on the referendum. It's up to the Scottish to decide their future and there are good arguments for and against. However, identity has always intrigued me and cases like these always provide interesting examples of identity being redefined.
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oh well i guess the majority didn't want it
but what happens now? having such a huge percentage of the population voting yes and remaining part of the union might cause problem. what do you reckon Pol, as the nma resident spokesman and on the ground reporter for "the scottish situation"
after all he did mel gibson aint going to be impressed by the way. maybe he should've kept the movie back in line to release with the election
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look on the bright side Pol. In the future you are not going to need to find you Passport to come down here and watch NMA ;)
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Yeah as Justin said in Glasgow last time nma aren't good with visas.
I'm pretty gutted right now and very disappointed i guess to many people were frightened and waved to the devil they knew. Too early to say what is going to happen next. Good news for the rest of the uk i think hopefully the tories will get voted out now at the next election. I think the north of England might get more a say maybe a English parliament as well At least we dared to dream
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Sadly i think your right Danny Those who voted no will get there wake up call soon One of my main reasons for voting yes was at least if it went wrong it went wrong on our terms not with someone we didn't vote for calling the shots Scotland only has 1 tory mp At least i can laugh at those who voted no next time they moan about getting fcked over by the tories
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Just read that Alex Salmond has announced he is to quit as SNP leader and First Minister.
On the whole, I feel sorry for the 45% of people who voted who haven't got what they wanted, but I'm pleased for the 55% who wanted to remain in the UK. I want us all to get along with each other on this island of ours. For the record, I am English with some Scottish (direct line on my father's paternal side) and Irish ancestry. Wish I had a bit of Welsh too !
My brain can't cope with trying to work out the logistics of what would happen if the vote had been Yes. How long would it have taken to prise apart all the ties that bind us !?
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Yeah as Justin said in Glasgow last time nma aren't good with visas.
I'm pretty gutted right now and very disappointed i guess to many people were frightened and waved to the devil they knew. Too early to say what is going to happen next. Good news for the rest of the uk i think hopefully the tories will get voted out now at the next election. I think the north of England might get more a say maybe a English parliament as well At least we dared to dream
Pol, this mantra from the left is getting a bit stale if you don't mind me saying and it's not accurate. You put "Good news for the rest of the uk i think hopefully the tories will get voted out". That isn't good news for England. I didn't vote Tory, but I know that most of England did in the last election look at this; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/2432632/UK-General-Election-2010-political-map.html.
We might not like the truth, but here it is anyway. Until we understand that England is mostly Tory, Wales is a mix of Tory, Labour and Plaid Cymru, Scotland is SNP and Labour and Ireland is Labour and other Irish parties and NO ONE ever gets the government they voted for, we cannot attempt to put it right.
However in looking at devolving powers to Scotland, though totally undemocratic as they are still part of a Union and Ireland, Wales and England were never consulted about this, which is a disgrace, perhaps we can start to look at devolving power to the other countries, and only allowing say English MP constituents to vote on English issues etc.
For example keeping the old Barnett formula is a disgrace. It's an insult to England, but did you know its actually Wales who lose out most under this old, unfair and ridiculous formula.
My thoughts right now as a half English, half Welsh person. I'm sick of hearing Scottish demands, seeing Scottish flags waving on the TV, hearing some unjust accusations being flung at mainly the English. I'm sorry, but I don't want to hear any more Scottish opinion for a little while, I want to hear and it's now time for Ireland, Wales and England to say something now.
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Sorry to hear that Alex has stepped down though not totally surprised He was a strong leader and a excellent communicator whether you liked them or not Personally I prefer what the Scottish Green Party have to say.
Don't think that the ties that held the uk and the Irish together will ever be broken
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I'm tired to give you a proper reply but will get back to you
For the record though someone else asked my to start the thread i didn't think this was the proper place for it and were all entitled to our own opinion Ps I proud to be a leftie
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I'm tired to give you a proper reply but will get back to you
For the record though someone else asked my to start the thread i didn't think this was the proper place for it and were all entitled to our own opinion Ps I proud to be a leftie
Hi Pol, I'm not trying to be rude I assure you. We should all be proud to believe in something, no problem there.
I'm just quoting facts and echoing what I've heard a number of English and Welsh folks say.
In the end Scotland has got a win-win I think, you may have not voted yes, but there will be a power shift. however as a leftie, surely you agree in parity so it should go for all the countries, yes?
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Firstly i can totally assure you i voted Yes I'm not liar
I totally believe that it can be good for the rest of the country Its up to the rest of the uk to voice their opinions and make the country a better place for everyone.Yes i will fight for my country be it Scotland and the UK
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Ooh, ding-dong! It's all kicking off, Excellent. Fight Fight Fight!!!!!!!!! ;D (sorry it's Friday night, not gotta deal with that fracking idiot of an MD for 2 days and I'm feeling a bit silly)
In regard to the constituency boundaries in the UK which proscribes how many MP's we get and where they come from lets be clear: it is neither a left nor right issue, it's everyone. What we vote in is a historical carve up of OUR Albion according to ancient feudal bullshit. Baron La De Dah of La-La Land had an estate covering X hundreds of square miles and would provide X number of "men" to the Warband/Militia/Army when the call came - so he got to have 5 MP's. Earl Poncey Woncey Knobhead of Narnia down the road only had a bit of land and only ever sent a few expendable village idiots armed with sticks to the latest bloodfest so he only got 1 MP. Meanwhile, Marquis Didn't He Do Well of ******* You Overville had thousands of acres, sent entire Regiments to the glory killing complete with crockery, cutlery and crystal glasses - him and his mates basically got the House Of Lords. Things got tweaked and smudged along the way to now but pretty much nothing has changed and it won't, how can it? The same power blocs and influences are still firmly entrenched.
I know that's cynical, scathing and dismissive (it's supposed to be) but it's not ignorant because (and I don't know if I've said this here before) I spent the first 7 years after leaving school in the Civil Service, in the Houses Of Parliament, in the Private Offices of 2 Cabinet Ministers - think "Yes Minister" and you've pretty much got where I worked. And I read - a lot ;).
Back to Scotland - Bugger >:( Really is a blow for all of us but that's the way the dice came up. There'll be shhitloads of talk and words written in the next few weeks but by Christmas we'll all have forgotten it happened. What a waste.
Sorry Pol- can't get you a beer but you can have this :-*
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Ok I'm going to remove this thread soon give anyone interested a chance to reply.
I come on this forum because i love nma people know me where i stay as that guy who is into nma lol.
I don't want to fall out with anyone maybe hope to make a few friends who i can buy a pint at a gig sometime Being a nma fan sometimes makes it hard to avoid politics I would like to add that Justin said he supported Scottish independence and wanted high to be our new national anthem which would have been very cool
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Of coarse its yours to remove mate, but I don't think Idopas meant to offend. I asked you to start the topic because I thought it would be worth the debate, and it has been. Maybe a bit patronising to ask you because I know you are a Scot, but you are, were seeing things there first hand. IMO, the defeat is not a complete defeat. After all, now the powers that be have to come to terms with the solid fact, 45% of the populous are not happy.
And if you are coming to Notts in December, you can buy me a pint :)
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I wouldn't remove this thread Pol. Discussion is important and has been somewhat absent from this forum in recent years. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. It forces you to think and deal with other perspectives. To me it disagreeing with someone and disliking someone are entirely different things. I fundamentally disagree on a number of issues with some of my best mates but we're still best mates. I don't think anyone here is having a go at you personally and I for one am interested in what you have to say on the topic.
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Another NMA-Forumite who doesn't want this thread deleted... ???
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Ok will agree to leave it
Thanks to everyone for your support
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Good on you Pol. :)
With such an even split, it will be interesting to see what the future holds.
It looks like Catalonia is next. It wouldn't surprise me if that one succeeded. Sadly, there seems to be a lot more animosity there.
But back to Scotland. What happens now? With so many people wanting fundamental change surely it can't just go back to business as usual?
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Thanks Shush. Of course I didn't mean to offend, read my posts everyone...they are hardly nasty or combative.
It is a little worrying when you put a contra argument, which of course is absolutely crucial in a democracy, people instantly start saying they will delete the topic. Wow! Shades of Vladimir Putin strategy there! ;)
A dialogue is about to start about federal democracy in this land, and that is fantastic. It is neither a right nor left issue it is everyone's, and that also is fantastic! Lets not stifle dialogue if inconvenient truths are mentioned! :)
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I wouldn't remove this thread Pol. Discussion is important and has been somewhat absent from this forum in recent years. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. It forces you to think and deal with other perspectives. To me it disagreeing with someone and disliking someone are entirely different things. I fundamentally disagree on a number of issues with some of my best mates but we're still best mates. I don't think anyone here is having a go at you personally and I for one am interested in what you have to say on the topic.
Absolutely spot on! I've been on this forum and previous incarnations of the NMA matrix like sites since 2003. There actually, for a band and its followers who are passionate, intelligent and politicized, are not enough topics about important things these days I think.
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i feel for scotland and the scottish people
the history is no different to the other parts of the union and the empire in general. it is never good to go back over things too much but in this case there are 45% of the people who wanted an independent scotland, a sovereign country restored to what it was 300 odd years ago. right now they are people without a country and the right to self determination. they might get more powers but they will still be on a leash.
disgusting that the eu didn't step up too. they should have welcomed scotland with open arms as a member state as they do most others. they should've lined up the process that would kick if scotland voted yes.
every last minute threat was made by politicians and corporations to swing it to the no vote. it was disgusting how barefaced they were about saying your sovereignty is not worth as much our corporations profits. scotland has vast natural food resources and supermarkets said that food could get much more expensive. social welfare and health and education were all used. just enough to ensure that they got the result. all areas where they spend their time preoccupying the citizens.
they all could have done so much more to support the scottish people in gaining sovereignty, or at least stay neutral and declare support for what the scottish people chose
keep the faith Pol. We know you are scottish.
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i feel for scotland and the scottish people
the history is no different to the other parts of the union and the empire in general. it is never good to go back over things too much but in this case there are 45% of the people who wanted an independent scotland, a sovereign country restored to what it was 300 odd years ago. right now they are people without a country and the right to self determination. they might get more powers but they will still be on a leash.
disgusting that the eu didn't step up too. they should have welcomed scotland with open arms as a member state as they do most others. they should've lined up the process that would kick if scotland voted yes.
every last minute threat was made by politicians and corporations to swing it to the no vote. it was disgusting how barefaced they were about saying your sovereignty is not worth as much our corporations profits. scotland has vast natural food resources and supermarkets said that food could get much more expensive. social welfare and health and education were all used. just enough to ensure that they got the result. all areas where they spend their time preoccupying the citizens.
they all could have done so much more to support the scottish people in gaining sovereignty, or at least stay neutral and declare support for what the Scottish people chose
keep the faith Pol. We know you are Scottish.
Well I don't think all the economic arguments were just threats. If you look at the demographics and economics of the situation, they would have lost on sheer economy of scale possibly.
However that still doesnt alter the fact that people voted no. I know a lot of Scots, and cowards they are not. So I believe the people who voted no did not do it out of fear, but because they wanted to vote no. We need to start understanding that and stop deflecting the reason for the result on everyone else!
There was a clear democratic process, and the people of Scotland voted no. So lets move on I say to the future!!!
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its not deflecting the reason to anyone else. its not blaming anything. its examining a situation. you can't really move on until you understand it.
and they were threats. very real threats. and threats that scottish people obviously took seriously enough to reject independence
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Ok its probably time for the dust to settle a bit and see where things go from here. The people have spoken and said no whose who did each had there own reasons for doing for which they were many some right and maybe some wrong.
Personally speaking its time to move on and make the best of what we have and make the UK a better place for everyone. I hope the people of the UK will take heart from the Scotland and speak out and stand up for a better fairer place for everyone to live
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I want to add this link this is what i believe in and what i vote for
http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/policy/
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its not deflecting the reason to anyone else. its not blaming anything. its examining a situation. you can't really move on until you understand it.
and they were threats. very real threats. and threats that scottish people obviously took seriously enough to reject independence
There were real and actual threats on both sides. You logic goes for the yes side as well!
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Ok its probably time for the dust to settle a bit and see where things go from here. The people have spoken and said no whose who did each had there own reasons for doing for which they were many some right and maybe some wrong.
Personally speaking its time to move on and make the best of what we have and make the UK a better place for everyone. I hope the people of the UK will take heart from the Scotland and speak out and stand up for a better fairer place for everyone to live
THAT I can completely agree with!
Fair is an interesting word though, politicians use it a lot. It doesn't really mean much if you think about it as my fair may not be your fair? :)
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There were real and actual threats on both sides. You logic goes for the yes side as well!
of course it does. thats the point.
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they should get if they want it. at least the majority. as well as catalans, basques etc. not to mention kurds.......but that is even more complicated as for poor palestinians.
then they should for sure manage by themselves.
unfortunately for they did not make it.