The official NMA board
General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: Pol on July 15, 2015, 05:47:34 PM
-
I just wanted to get others opinion on Oskar Groening the bookkeeper of Auschwitz.
Do you think it was right that a 94 year old man who uses a walking aid was given a 4 year sentence for his part in the death/murder of 300,000 people during his time at the nazi death camp. A guard who was a small cog in the machine. It now seems that he probably won't serve any time in prison.
So what do you think Should he have got longer, the death sentence even or was it all just a show trial where the money spent could have done far better things for the victims families
-
He knew people were being sent to the gas chamber next and he knew he worked at a death camp.
4 years is not long enough. He should be in a cell until he dies and not one of those nice, comfortable prisons like they have in the Netherlands. He needs to be subjected to misery in the last years of his life. It will never match what the victims of the holocaust have been through. Not even close.
-
Tough one but... we're assuming that everyone German in the 40's was an evil murderous bastard.
Now, I doubt that anyone there was unaware of what was going on. And it is one of the greatest horrors that ever happened on this planet. But these were hysterical brainwashed times from a country broken down after their failure in WW1 and are suddenly being told, from a charismatic and passionate new leader (and Hitler MUST have had that power!) they are the new leaders of Europe and they don't have to be broken anymore.
The best of people can become sheep when they're down on their knees. And they act accordingly.
I am not excusing, for a single f-ing second, the true horrors of the Holocaust. Watch 'Night Must Fall', a documentary that brought me to tears when I watched it. You will cry too.
But when the machinery gets going, some are given a job to do and do it because there is no other choice. This guy was about 20 when he was working there? A very small cog in a big machine. And if he refused in the face of those insane bastards? I suspect it wouldn't have ended well for this kid.
And hasn't he already been in documentaries about The Holocaust, talking about how awful it was? He's not exactly been secretive about his little involvement... ???
Bottom line... if it is proved that he murdered a single person, I say let the sentence stand. If not and he was just a kid keeping his head down in the face of utter f-ing evil / insanity, I'd say this whole thing is a waste of time and just some show-trial...
:o
-
Tough one but... we're assuming that everyone German in the 40's was an evil murderous bastard.
Now, I doubt that anyone there was unaware of what was going on. And it one of the greatest horrors that ever happened on this planet. But these were hysterical brainwashed times from a country broken down after their failure in WW1 and are suddenly being told, from a charismatic and passionate new leader (and Hitler MUST have had that power!) they are the new leaders of Europe and they don't have to be broken anymore.
The best of people can become sheep when they're down on their knees. And they act accordingly.
I am not excusing, for a single f-ing second, the true horrors of the Holocaust. Watch 'Night Must Fall', a documentary that brought me to tears when I watched it. You will cry too.
But when the machinery gets going, some are given a job to do and do it because there is no other choice. This guy was about 20 when he was working there? A very small cog in a big machine. And if he refused in the face of those insane bastards? I suspect it wouldn't have ended well for this kid.
And hasn't he already been in documentaries about The Holocaust, talking about how awful it was? He's not exactly been secretive about his little involvement... ???
Bottom line... if it is proved that he murdered a single person, I say let the sentence stand. If not and he was just a kid keeping his head down in the face of utter f-ing evil / insanity, I'd say this whole thing is a waste of time and just some show-trial...
:o
And the people who did speak out about it were probably afraid of being killed
-
[
not one of those nice, comfortable prisons like they have in the Netherlands.
O yes, Dutch prisons are like hotels. I can hear Geert Wilders saying that, but why do you???
-
Agreed, A... so perhaps a revision of your original opinion? :(
-
sorry. but i pick up headlines online. i tend not to read the detail since it changes from site to site and paper to paper.
the bloke is a 94 year old retired bookkeeper. what a great age. his crimes are 70 years old. is he the poster boy of stormfront? or the bnp? or the rest of the fascist scum?
probably not. why don't they go after those that are alive today? the evil that is everywhere around us. why not hunt them down in the name of the innocents in the middle east, in south east asia, in central and southern america, in africa, europe and north america. why not hunt down the bankers and executives who have caused some of the worst hardship in human history over the last 20 years when the 95% of the world that are third world can see the affluence of power on their mobile phones.
genuinely no disrespect but i guess its easier to publish the story of an evil monstrous nazi bookkeeper than it is to publish the name of your bosses cronies.
He was there. he didn't cause it. he couldn't end it. he was probably only surviving during those times. and is ashamed of himself ever more.
-
Personally I think its all a bit of a farce and perhaps a bit insulting to the countless victims of numerous atrocities who's perpetrators are not even perused.
I think its also a bit sad the reason Groening was brought to public attention is because he made his role at Auschwitz publically known in order to dismiss ridiculous claims by the far right that the holocaust never even happened.
The pursuit of those who actively took part in the holocaust has always been a just cause. From the naming of war criminals at the Nuremberg trials, and later the work of Simon Wiesenthal and Mossad. But, if this particular SS office worker or accountant is to be held responsible, then every one of the many many thousands involved with the holocaust from admin in Berlin, the German Police, transport, every member of the Allgemeine SS, SA, etc etc should have been held responsible and dealt with in the relevant decades after the war. In law today it is a serious offence not to report a murder. From that should we hold a large portion of the wartime German population to account ?
We have never sought justice or revenge for the millions of slave labourers working in German factories and farms during the war. factories like BWM, AEG, Opel, etc all surviving production demands and bombing raids through their forced labour workforce which also faced atrocities on a daily basis, numerous thousands dying in the process. But, we have never sought members of the R.A.D , all the wartime admin, politicians or any of the factories that profited and survived the war to grow from strength to strength.
If an accountant at Auschwitz is worthy of trial, why not every single member of Waffen-SS division Dirlewanger and every other major SS related atrocity. And if for WW2 genocide it is right to imprison an accountant, should we start to finally look into the millions of victims of countless atrocities committed by the U.S.S.R by the likes of the N.K.V.D. such as the 1941 Katyn forest massacre. The Japanese in China, numerous genocides in Africa and rest of the World since the war, the list is never ending.
This is a case of an old man trying to do the right thing in dismissing the holocaust deniers, and maybe in a small way try to atone for his part in it. A show trial for modern Germany to distance itself from its regrettable past.
-
I don't care how old, I don't care how close to Deaths door. Put them on trial and if guilty = Life imprisonment. If I agreed with the Death penalty ...
You won't change my opinion, I'm not trying to change yours. But Pol asked for opinions and that's mine.
Go listen to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d2xpjoP63Q
-
but
is it enough to say you are guilty because you stood by probably for fear of your own life. and having been raised in a strict orthodox environment where questioning superiors was a disgrace? if we try to put ourselves in the same position, and strip back the effects of the propaganda we have been saturated with since birth, then surely we can see that there is a chance that this man was not complicit at all. he just couldn't stop it.
help me here a little anna
if i work somewhere like that. and everyday i see things happening that shouldn't. and also know that to speak out would mean certain death for me. certain death. and that my death if i do speak out makes no difference. so i do nothing. the same nothing that we all accept today. am i then as guilty of crime as this man? i don't think so.
**** martyrdom
we should be exploring this mans memories that are contemporaneous with some of the most tragic and despicable human behavior ever (apart of scouse suits at fa cup wembley '96) and value the insight we can gain.
that is of course if he was just a bookkeeper
-
Lets not excuse this man too much Heno. After all, he was a member of the SS and would have gone through the same selection process of other members even if a book keeper. But, there were at its peak around 1 million members of the SS. An SS accountant has been sentenced when there are still alive members of SS death squads. This is what I am struggling to come to terms with, especially when this accountant has exposed himself in order to dismiss the modern day extreme right-wing.
Would it not make more sense having this man take part in group talks, information gatherings with young people at schools, colleges etc. In the face of ridiculous far-right claims that the holocaust did not happen, we have someone here prepared to say - yes it did, I was there, I witnessed it .
Anna, not sure if your post was aimed at me or Heno but, I would want to hear your opinion, not change it I would not want to try to force mine on you. At the end of the day, say what we like about this or anything else, its not going to change anything.
Regards the link to the song Vengeance and its related lyrics, it was written about Klaus Barbie. Senior SS officer, mass murderer, sadist, rapist who escaped justice in 1945. Rather than being executed for his many crimes after the war he was employed by the U.S. secret service. Not a shining example of justice. As I said in my last, the work of Simon Wiesenthal and Mossad perusing the high ranking decision makers in South America in particular was all for the good. The lack of effort by the wars victors in post-war years in decades past to find these men, not very impressive.
-
Thatte author=marius link=topic=8859.msg151561#msg151561 date=1436993291]
[ not one of those nice, comfortable prisons like they have in the Netherlands.
O yes, Dutch prisons are like hotels. I can hear Geert Wilders saying that, but why do you???
[/quote]
I say that because I am repeating a dutch person.
they said even murders stay in comfortable prisons.
-
The "you" in my post was a general one and not aimed at anyone in particular. I posted the link to reinforce how strongly I feel about this.
Systematic extermination of 11 million people didn't happen just because of a handful of leaders. It takes a lot of people to make it happen. If someone was part of the process then stand them in front of a court and hold them to account.
And if found guilty they should be punished.
-
so we're for getting the bastard
-
I would like to thank everyone for their opinions and viewpoints and they are much appreciated and its good to know that lively debate is still alive and kicking. Everyone's opinion has been very much respected.
I started the post because I was angry and confused at myself for somewhat feeling sorry for him and thinking why am I feeling like this
Please keep your views coming n thanks everyone
-
Anyone seen the film Good? An interesting film about a supposedly good man who gets seduced by Nazism.
-
Not seen that one, but what you say kind of reminds me of the film, Apt Pupil --
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118636/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_29
-
lets explore punishment. should it fit the crime?
not talking eye for an eye or anything
when genocide and ethnic cleansing are involved then one death is as bad as a 1000. its the motive that should dictate penalty.
i don't know enough about post war consequences for nazi foot soldiers and administrators. did everyone in germany get a 4 year jail sentence when the war ended?
-
The German people did well and truly suffer after WW2. Facts and figures are very varied, largely because so little true information has come out of Russia in post-war years, but around 11 millions Germans died after WW2 as a result of WW2. Stalin, the most evil man in history wanted his pound of flash out of Eastern Germany. Countless thousands of Germans disappeared after the war to the Russian Gulags never to be seen again. Almost every wartime German soldier, policeman, official of any kind was interrogated and then dealt with as the N.K.V.D. saw fit. Millions dying of starvation on the selection of who will and who did march west as Stalin heaved Poland westwards. Starvation in Eastern Germany in the immediate aftermath of the war. Thousands of rapes, false imprisonments, on the spot exactions.
The German army captured by the Western allies held in camps till the late 40's also suffered and died in large quantities. Millions of German soldiers still in captivity in the USSR never to return home. With all this, all the major cities in ruins by allied bombing, I think it is one of the most miraculous aspects of the 20th century that Germany emerged as economic power house it is today.
I am English but with Polish heritage. In terms of history, I am Polish. I have studied Polish history as a hobby of mine sine the 80's. Back in the 80's when I was in contact with exiled Polish ex-servicemen in the U.K I was very anti-German and believed the country should not have been allowed to exist in post-war years. . There was Poland which suffered more than any other nation during the war at the hands of the Russians and the Germans still basically an occupied country sold out by the West to the Russians while at the same time West Germany was a free and wealthy country.
Since then I have come to realise several things. Germany also suffered greatly during and after the war. No country is without blame or without a history of wrong doing. I have met many Germans in recent years, visited the country a few times and I like the Germans a lot. To me at least they are a very moral and honest people. Are we going to ram WW2 down their throats for ever ? Most Germans alive today were born post-45. "They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind" well I think they have reaped it enough now. Uncle Joe , the RAF and USAAF made sure of that. "I believe in vengeance" , I do to, but for the right people, the guilty individuals. Nations are made of peoples, and most people just want the basics of life.
-
the world is truly a terrible place. beyond imagination
i've read some pieces on the events of the days when the US sat by and permitted the russias 3 or 4 days of whatever they wanted in germany. some estimates at 250000, some as high a 750000 chiildren born as a consequence of russian soldiers raping their mothers.
the controls to stop this happening again are getting better but there are many psychopaths out there just dying to get into power and get off on power
-
It's not about nationalities. It's about individual responsibility.
This thread was not about other horrific events. It asked about involvement in a specific occurrence.
-
Groening was not acting as an individual. He was part in a massive regime. Groening and his part in the holocaust has to be viewed in context to the whole event.
-
if
at any one moment
during this blokes participation in these atrocities
and that does not imply him being complicit
if he ever thought life is good and i like the benefits of being part of this
then he should spend the rest of his days being denied of his basic human rights
not sure how we can judge this though. since very few of his contemporaries from either side are still with us
and that raises an other issue
probably captured by "you weren't there"
we can all with our intelligence
seek to think what it was like. but if you weren't there then you are the same as all other commentators
ignorant of the facts and the emotions and the memory of basic human instincts that are chemically burned in our brains
-
probably captured by "you weren't there"
Probably right, 'cos none of us were.