NMA Kings of the middle 8!

[huwcamden]

This is probably a bit of a muso topic but as a songwriter myself I've often marvelled at Sullivans awesome "middle 8's"..for those not familiar with this term it's a part of the song often lasting 8 bars, normally after the 2nd chorus that takes the song in a new direction briefly..anyhow music lesson over!..here's my top 3..a

1 Lurhstaap
2 Tomorrow came
3 Stupid questions
 

[huwcamden]

The middle 8's in Lovesongs,  vanity and the charge are pretty damn good also...anybody have an opinion? ( even if it's shut up you boring t**t)..Its a bit sad that I'm I have to reply to my own posts!

[8]

This is probably a bit of a muso topic but as a songwriter myself I've often marvelled at Sullivan's awesome "middle 8's"..
for those not familiar with this term it's a part of the song often lasting 8 bars,
normally after the 2nd chorus that takes the song in a new direction briefly..
anyhow music lesson over!..
here's my top 3..a

1  Lurhstaap
2  Tomorrow Came
3  Stupid Questions

The middle 8's in

Love Songs
Vanity
The Charge

are pretty damn good also... anybody have an opinion?
(even if it's shut up you boring t**t)..
Its a bit sad that I'm I have to reply to my own posts!

Greetings huwcamden!

First off, you are far from boring!  So, don't you dare ever shut up or stop creating threads, posting!  Okay?

I'm not a musician; however, this kind of musical detail is of extreme interest to me, as well.  I'm quite embarrassed to mention that I don't understand or know what middle 8's are.  So I'm naturally intrigued by your wonderful thread and the whole idea of middle 8's altogether.

I'm hoping to learn more about and grasp what middle 8's actually are.  Thank you for kindly inserting examples.  I have to go back and listen to your six song picks over and over multiple times, so that I can feel a bit more confident that I understand middle 8's, before I attempt a reply.

Like you, I am hoping the good folks and musically-inclined people on and of this forum will reply to your seriously awesome thread!  I'm always into learning new things, especially where music and NMA are concerned.  I find it keeps visiting this forum fresh, engaging, vital, interesting and exciting! 

Keep dropping more NMA song examples into this thread, everyone.  I don't want middle 8's to go over my head as most musical details do.  However small, I'll always be into and appreciate a musical lesson, NMA-related ones especially!

Fantastic thread topic, huwcamden!

[huwcamden]

Many thanks for replying 8...maybe others will on this now exceptionally quiet forum..anyhow the reason NMA'so middle 8's are so killer is that Sullivan is such a profound lyricist..hence a couple of bars that are inserted into the song as a one off take on massive magnitude..often more so than the chorus eg "there comes a time in your life you gotta grow up fast" or "we're starting shooting for the final scenes"...the trick is not to over use them though..only the once and not in every song.

[Winterwulf]

I'll put a vote in for "Lights Go Out", though it's rather longer than eight bars - the lyrics really resonated with me when I got made redundant at the start of 2020 ( I walked straight into another job though)

[Stephanie]

"middle 8's"..for those not familiar with this term it's a part of the song often lasting 8 bars, normally after the 2nd chorus that takes the song in a new direction briefly..anyhow music lesson over!.

Ok, this was a totally new term for me - thanks, I will be checking that out now - I like being pointed to such fine details 

[8]

"middle 8's"
for those not familiar with this term it's a
part of the song often lasting 8 bars,
normally after the 2nd chorus
that takes the song in a new direction
briefly.

Hi there huwcamden,

I'm still lost. Please elaborate?  It would be most helpful to those of us struggling to pinpoint / grasp middle 8's.

  1.  Is the middle 8 referring to a lyrical OR musical 8-bar stretch of a song?

  2.  Are the middle 8 and the bridge the exact same thing, same part of a song, just using different terminology / phrasing?

Hopefully you (or someone else) magically understands what I'm trying to ask, and will pop-in to clarify things bit further?

[Bever]

"middle 8's"
for those not familiar with this term it's a
part of the song often lasting 8 bars,
normally after the 2nd chorus
that takes the song in a new direction
briefly.

Hi there huwcamden,

I'm still lost. Please elaborate?  It would be most helpful to those of us struggling to pinpoint / grasp middle 8's.

  1.  Is the middle 8 referring to a lyrical OR musical 8-bar stretch of a song?

  2.  Are the middle 8 and the bridge the exact same thing, same part of a song, just using different terminology / phrasing?

Hopefully you (or someone else) magically understands what I'm trying to ask, and will pop-in to clarify things bit further?

Maybe just link a few of  those middle 8's here from youtube? You can link a video to the second.

[Henning]

Very cool topic! On Surrounded there's also quite some great middle 8s. For you non-muso guys here's an example, let's take "Coming with me":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peQY7kriirk&t=170s

Around the 2:35 the middle 8 starts with "like kings of old...". There's a harmonic change with a set of chords and melody that was not in the song before. This change highlights the lyrics at this point, it's really top writing both musically and lyrically. The middle 8 ends at around 2:50 with  "they will never find us". So, now you know how to spot a middle 8. Try it out on the songs you like, you will be surprised how many cool middle8s there are in Justin's music.

[Stephanie]

Very cool topic! On Surrounded there's also quite some great middle 8s. For you non-muso guys here's an example, let's take "Coming with me":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peQY7kriirk&t=170s

Around the 2:35 the middle 8 starts with "like kings of old...". There's a harmonic change with a set of chords and melody that was not in the song before. This change highlights the lyrics at this point, it's really top writing both musically and lyrically. The middle 8 ends at around 2:50 with  "they will never find us". So, now you know how to spot a middle 8. Try it out on the songs you like, you will be surprised how many cool middle8s there are in Justin's music.

Thanks, that helps a lot 

[huwcamden]

Hi there 8....A middle 8 can be lyrical or instrumental but in most cases it contains lyrics/melody as that creates maximum impact to the song especially as it's always a different melody to the rest of the song..(NMA's middle 8's are so good you could use them as chorus's in general though)..they differ from bridges in that they never appear more than once in the song.. (if they did by definition they would be a bridge)
The most obvious NMA middle 8 is in stupid questions..the "There comes a time in your life you gotta grow up fast" bit...
On the early albums they used them a lot. .less so now as more songs are based around drum beats and perhaps more proggy..maybe Rob Heaton had a knack for them as he was involved in a lot of the writing in those early days?..I'm really not sure..Songwriting is a funny thing though as you always plan to be free and anarchic and have no rules but then often end up falling into classic verse/bridge patterns anyway..Sullivan once said he'd never intentionally written a pop song which I'm sure is true but his blueprint is remarkably similar to the Beatles/stones school of pop when it comes down to it much of the time.

[Johnz]

Like the bit in Where I am, where he sings "and the wind blows the water.."? Is that a middle 8? If so then that is probably one of my favourites. I'm sure there are plenty of others though.

[huwcamden]

Hi there Johnz...I think the middle 8 in "where I am", is the bit which says " it seems like everyone wants to be somewhere else, everyone wants to be someone else"..the bit you like is over a verse but it does have a different melody so it's a bit ambiguous!...I'd say it was a verse with a bit of poetic licence taken.

[Johnz]

Hi there Johnz...I think the middle 8 in "where I am", is the bit which says " it seems like everyone wants to be somewhere else, everyone wants to be someone else"..the bit you like is over a verse but it does have a different melody so it's a bit ambiguous!...I'd say it was a verse with a bit of poetic licence taken.

Thanks Huw. I'm obviously not much of a musician but this is a great topic.

So is the "Today at the office..." bit in Lights Go Out a middle 8?

[huwcamden]

Hi there Johnz ..yes the bit with the " today at the office" line that starts with "History gave us a reason" and ends with "Gunning for a crown" is a middle 8 to my mind although it's a long one at 32 bars or so!..other phenomenal middle 8's for any of you new found middle 8 fanatics that stick out particularly in the pop world are Shakespears sister: Stay ( you better hope and pray bit).and .Bryan Adams: Summer of 69 (we were young and reckless bit)!!!