I believe in vengeance, or do I?

[Johnz]

Seeing Vengeance pop up in a recent setlist made me think about this. Don't get me wrong, I love the song but I must admit that 29 years on from first hearing it, my attitude has changed and I just can't sing 'I believe in vengeance' out loud anymore and actually believe it. It's funny because it's one of the songs that first got me into them.

I remember JS a few years ago saying something to the effect of there being enough vengeance out there which is why he felt no need to play it anymore and I thought the same.

Now this is not about whether the band should play it or not but about how people personally relate to its sentiment. I'm not so sure anymore which is why I'm interested to hear what others think.

[sozbot]

I think it's more about the perspective from which you view the song. Sure, taken straight-up, it's pretty aggressive (and I believe, rightly so)...

But I still love it. I feel like people who do bad things deserve bad things, and while the song may express that in a blunt manner, the sentiment is a good one.

What goes around, comes around. Not that I'm an active seeker of vengeance, but I can't say I complain when bad things happen to those who deserve them 

[c]

I've always found the lyrics of this song slightly uncomfortable because they paint the world in a very black and white way (and yes I know the Cause), and paint justice in what you might describe as an "Old Testament" way - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, without any chance of redemption / rehabilitation/ second chance/ two sides of a story/ or the chance that the accuser is simply mistaken about the identity of the accused (ref the french postman burned to death in Mauritius the other day, having been accused of a dreadful crime and then killed out of hand).

But that hasn't stopped me loving the song for a long time. I like its power, I like the challenge the lyrics provide, and when was I teenager, it shocked my parents that I was playing a song with the word "bastards" in it (if they ever used the word, it meant illegitimate child only and they pronounced it with a short a sound even though we lived in Kent)

[DannySan]

I've always found the lyrics of this song slightly uncomfortable because they paint the world in a very black and white way (and yes I know the Cause), and paint justice in what you might describe as an "Old Testament" way - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, without any chance of redemption / rehabilitation/ second chance/ two sides of a story/ or the chance that the accuser is simply mistaken about the identity of the accused (ref the french postman burned to death in Mauritius the other day, having been accused of a dreadful crime and then killed out of hand).

I think that just about sums up my feelings. Although I do feel as we get older we seem more able to stop and think rather than just blindly react to something.

Still a great song.

[peternotbaldyet]

There's an old saying 'When you seek vengeance, dig two graves.' It probably sums it up. If you believe in vengeance and they believe in vengeance, where does it end. Having said that, it's a damn fine song.

[-Janek-]

I remember JS a few years ago saying something to the effect of there being enough vengeance out there which is why he felt no need to play it anymore and I thought the same.

yestarday it was someone's request, dedicated to that person by Justin, but dont remember his/her name

[Master Ray]

I posted something a while back about how I was put in hospital a couple of years ago in a random street attack from someone I'd never met... I was repeatedly punched in the face, kneed in the balls, had the base of my spine repeatedly kicked, whilst all the time the bastard was screaming 'I'M GOING TO KILL YOU, YOU ****' for, again, no reason whatsoever, I'd never seen him before... I was wearing a light-coloured jumper and had to throw it away because it had so much blood on it...

The police found him and his punishment?... a 'caution' (which, as we all know, means f-all, it's the equivalent of waving your finger in someones face, you can have thirty of forty of them without a single penny leaving your pocket, yeah, but if your dog shits on the pavement,you'll be paying out...)

And why was he given this sad finger-waving excuse for punishment?  Because, and I quote exactly, 'he said he was sorry...'

 

That ain't good enough. There's no such this as karma.  Bastards who hurt people will go on to hurt again because they're allowed to get away with it.  It's all they know.  That incident has changed me from someone who believed in the inherant decency of people to someone who suspects every stranger.

My neighbourhood (where I've lived for fifteen years) is turning to shit around me and it breaks my heart.  It makes me so angry.

Sorry, I usually try and post light-hearted messages, but if you ask my opinion on this subject...

I believe in justice.  I believe in vengeance. I believe in getting the bastard.

[Frank]

Fact of the matter is we have all, at some point, felt the deisre to bluntly deliver retribution. Its a human instinct. NMA captured that sentiment perfectly with youthful exuberunce. A naive song? violent intent? too basic? Not enough context? Maybe.

Nonetheless it a magnificent song, a stomping tune and still has its place in a NMA set, albeit for 3 mins!! JS today would be far more poetic in his lyrics which shows how well he has developed as a lyricist, but vengeance as a song captures a moment perfectly.........

[Stoney]

Personally, I can honestly say it still rings true. I can gladly scream along ad infinitum with it....... It's a universal theme of retribution, you can aly it to any cause just abouts......

[peternotbaldyet]

Ray, This happened years ago when I was younger and dumber. I was waiting for a taxi at about 2 in the morning in a long queue. A bloke towards the front of the queue started punching his girlfriend and I mean punching her. Her face was bleeding and it all happened in a few seconds. No one did anything, so I grabbed him and pulled him backwards off her. He went absolutely mad. I could not fight him, he just punched and kicked me down the street. I was bleeding, black eyed and couldn't properly walk. There were maybe 30 people in that queue. No one helped her or me. The worst thing was a taxi turned up and he muscled into it and she got in after him. There's that thing on telly where you throw one punch and knock someone out. It wasn't like that at all.

[Impuri-D]

The lyrics do deal with anger at some pretty big moral issues - Protection of Nazi war criminals by bribed governments, dealers selling smack outside schools. Its not like advocacy for beating up a guy who stops for a drunken wee in a shop doorway at 2am or something 

Thematicaly, its revisited in 'The Hunt', and I bet nobody can resist singing that so hard that your heart plops out of your nose!

Personaly, I have punched plenty, and forgiven plenty over the years. Some I punched I now wish I hadn't, and some i forgave I now wish I had punched. But most I feel I got just right 

[Johnz]

I've always found the lyrics of this song slightly uncomfortable because they paint the world in a very black and white way (and yes I know the Cause), and paint justice in what you might describe as an "Old Testament" way - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, without any chance of redemption / rehabilitation/ second chance/ two sides of a story/ or the chance that the accuser is simply mistaken about the identity of the accused (ref the french postman burned to death in Mauritius the other day, having been accused of a dreadful crime and then killed out of hand).

But that hasn't stopped me loving the song for a long time.

Thanks for the replies.

Some interesting views and stories. I think the above sums up the way I feel about it. I understand that the song is intended as a gut reaction and tackles some pretty despicable issue and it does that well. Maybe it's just the word believe that I have issues with because while I certainly know the urge for vengeance it is just not something I believe in as a means of settling conflict anymore.

[wilf]

I remember posting about the same subject some years ago and being blasted by some members of the "Family". I said something to the effect that I didn't agree with Justin's then introduction to the song,"The only good Fascist is a dead Fascist", because in saying so you are on the same level as the Fascists themselves. Death or in this case the implied death penalty can never be the answer. Believe me, as a teacher of History and Ethics I know what I'm talking about.

To me there's no problem with the song itself as it shows the perspective of  an extreme character - as indeed does The Hunt as someone pointed out - and should not be mistaken as being the songwriter's opinion.

[Toronto Popular Front]

is justice vengeance? is vengeance justice? or, is it vigilante justice he is talking about?
don't get me wrong i do like the song, but i know people who know the band only slightly and think this is how the singer feels because he is the one singing it:-

"To me there's no problem with the song itself as it shows the perspective of  an extreme character - as indeed does The Hunt as someone pointed out - and should not be mistaken as being the songwriter's opinion."

and i have heard him say at gigs he does belive in vengeance, which is backed up by the old intro

""The only good Fascist is a dead Fascist", because in saying so you are on the same level as the Fascists themselves."


again, don't get me wrong i do like the song, but for me there are other lyrics which i find it harder to understand

today is a good day - i have said this before but, i still can't understand how someone can say that was a good day, when all the financial system went tits up and we the tax payer had to bail out the banks and the age of austerity began, i also wonder how many NMA fans sat there thinking that, or did they begin to think it was a good day after the song was released? and yes i have heard justins comments and arguements when i have previously mentioned it but still can't agree

falklands - "They think that they died for you and me, Oh God, what a farce, what a farce"
                  "They think they fought for peace and freedom Poor boys, what a farce, what a farce"
well, no, i think they died for the peace & freedom of the falkland islanders, who are eternally gratefull for that.
again, don't get me wrong, i do think it is absolutely sh*t that in this so called modern world that we sometimes have to go to war & i am eternally gratefull that i have not experienced it, but, still don't get those lyrics


BRING ON THE FLAK!

[Johnz]

I remember reading a JS interview where he says he wrote Vengeance after watching a Klaus Barbie documentary. So I think it's pretty much what he felt at the time and not someone else's story.

I personally don't take offence to the TIAGD lyrics even though, like many, I am still suffering the economical burden of its aftermath. To me, the 'good' thing in the song is that the crash revealed the shortcomings of capitalism to everyone and not the fact that millions lost everything. Admittedly, it is a bit 'there you have it/told you so' but it's also very true.