St Patricks Day

[Heno]

so we are from a little town called wicklow. Just south of Dublin. legend has it that wicklow was the place where patrick returned to ireland in order to bring christianity to the pagan irish. he landed at a beach called travelahawk. in the picture below the beach is in the foreground. in the background is the local castle what is in total ruins but artists have reimagined what it would look like if it were still complete. when patrick and his cohorts arrived in ireland, in wicklow, our ancestors stoned them on the beach. they didn't want them. there was one man with patrick who suffered his teeth being knocked out by the stones. he was called mantain, which is literally "toothless one". wicklow's name in the irish language is cill mhantain or church of mantain since being the good christian fellow that he was patrick left maintain  behind to establish his church in wicklow since he was the one that was hurt worst by the pagan irish.

so, simply, patrick's association with ireland happened right here on our little beach.

[Master Ray]

Very interesting post, Heno and that first picture?  That's where you live?  Bloody jealous, mate, it looks lovely...

Side-stepping slightly... I was in Manchester yesterday afternoon with my mate and the whole St Patrick's day thing was in full swing.  A huge parade was in progress, there was a big fair going on outside the Town Hall and everywhere you looked, there were folks in costumes, make-up, etc... good luck to them too, hope they all had a lovely day!  God knows we need one in the current economic climate...

But it was probably a tiny percentage of the assembled crowds who had anything like Irish blood in them...

Yet somehow, St Georges Day is a minor footnote in most peoples diaries...

Can I ask, with no agenda, why any of you lot think that similar events are not in progress for the English folks, who made up the majority of that same crowd?

Please understand, I'm not a Daily Mail reader who's currently undecided about whether to get involved with either UKIP or the BNP... I'm a rational minded fella who's struggling to understand why there isn't a celebration of English-ness (is that a word?) and pride in that same country.  We ain't perfect, not least in view of the fact that we have a government who seems to be intent on destroying so much that is good about the UK (the gleeful destruction of the NHS, for one...) but I have mentioned this with other folks on other forums and, apparently, it makes me a bit of a 'racist'... 

I'd love to get some input on this from you lovely lot because I'm struggling to get my head around it...

[Heno]

yeah, its a nice place. i'll get some time to post other pictures in the future.

i am not sure about your question. as in i don't have an answer.  i do know that being an ethnic minority in the UK made people very aware of the celebrations of irish culture etc. then maggie took it away.

in englands case then there would have been massive celebrations in the past. the queens coronation. the queens birthday etc are all things that are visible. and in the past there were even more celebrations in the colonies about their englishness. i just odder has it anything to do with a distinct lack of a national identity? england is such a mixed society that it may not be able to choose what to celebrate.

what culture do you think would be celebrated anyway?

[Master Ray]

Cheers, Heno.  You're right.  There have been many celebrations over the last few years, but most of them relating to the Royals, and in one-off events.  I'm talking about a regular celebration every year in the same vein as the St Patricks Day celebrations...

Been thinking about it since my last post and I think you nailed it when you mentioned 'a distinct lack of national identity'.  I've never been to Ireland and therefore I have no idea about the mix of 'nationals' to 'immigrants' over there, so please excuse my ignorance.  Obviously, the UK is a massively multi-cultural society... and I think that might be the problem.  The likes of the BNP and the EDL (or your casual, everyday racist c-word)  have hi-jacked the English flag, much less the Union Jack.  They parade that same flag whilst chanting their hateful words.  Which much make the likes of non-white communities shy away from any celebration that might be, yes, 'English'... never mind that they are just as English as those total c-words...

it sickens me.  There should be a celebration of this country like the one done on March 17th, but total fucktards have put paid to that.  Very sad... 

[Heno]

probably any colonial power has the same challenge. what is it to be english? or is there a stereotype that you can point to? england is an extremely diverse society even within the white anglo saxon realm.


it has gone from the romans, to settled vikings to the normans and on through different dilutions based on invasion or conquering. it has amassed a society laden with many ethnic minorities. a lot of these people would feel that celebrating englishness is reminding them of the atrocities that were carried out in the name of king/queen and country against their people in their homeland. france would be very similar.

[Pol]

Wow where you live looks awesome
Being Scottish we have some big st. Patricks things Yes the Fingers still play the Barrowlands every year lol Sadly being from the west the whole rangers Celtic religious thing still raises it ugly head to a certain extent.
On the National identity issue ok Scotland has it tartan etc, we don't celebrate st Andrews day to any extent we seem to go for Burns night (rabbie not Jake lol)
No Rays point wanting to have a national identity certainly doesn't make you a racist you wouldn't be a nma fan if you was The union jack and the st George's cross seems to have been hijacked by certain right wing elements though.
. Ok hope you guys and girls have a good night

[Shush]

M/Ray, if you do find an answer as to what English culture is today, please let me know, cuz I'm buggered if I can find it.

Maybe Danny Boil had the answer when he celebrated England / Britain in the opening and closing Olympic ceremonies. A history of invention which has shaped the modern world, and of recent decades, music.

In that respect, NMA are English culture, and you can't fall out with that 

I do find it very sad that people today are ashamed to say, or confused about being proud to be English. It is a shame we only ever dare fly flags during football tournaments.   A total contrast to what I have seen and felt in the States, where flag flying and patriotism is part of everyday life, even though the country is vast and so very much varied from one end to the other, it is still a country with a well defined identity. Also in modern Poland. Such a vast and morbid history of occupation and oppression, but since the country became free again in 1989, they call it the third republic. Every Government building, or school seams to have an enamelled eagle plaque above it, and the flags are everywhere. --  I suppose in that instant, you don't know what you have till you have had it taken away from you so many times.

As a nationality in our identity, I think we still tend to look to the past to find pride, not just in world domination, but in invention and creativity. We need to look to find what is good in England today. 

[szmurf]

Today, everyone is Irish.  It's in full swing in the US too.  Mind you, we don't have any US Saints Day, so can't comment on your question.  We do have MLK JR day, and while not a Catholic Saint, he is what some consider a Secular Saint.  I'd like to see that day become a more universal celebration in the states.

[Knievel]

hehehe - s'funny how raising any 'English'ness is seen as rascism huh?  Howdo Ray - Howdo folk - I finally logged on again - there was a glitch with my sign in but I'm glad its sorted out now on this far side of Paddys day.
Not that I've got anything to say - just want to say hello

regarding Saint Patrick - I know very little of the guy but I do know that when I was living in Ireland there were very few folk who saw him as Irelands figurehead.  Most folk didn't like what he'd brought to Ireland but that was my friends of vagabonds children and (ex)prisoners forever.  I'm sure conservative Ireland love him.

I'm interested now - gonna have to find out about the guy...I'll write to my Mom - she usually gives me good misinformation - doesn't matter how flawed it is - that's history innit!

While I'm on this - my great grandad didn't like the English - my mom used to say to him (as a kid) 'But I'm English Grandad!' (she was born in England) and he'd reply (in English) 'Darst rohst yer gerl dars nod a drop o 'Glish blood in yer'

We celebrated neither an English nor an Irish day.  I'd say that Paddy's day is celebrated by drinkers of any nation - maybe it's Pans way of reclaiming what Patrick tamed.

[Rusco]

Heno, very beautiful sights from there and it's an interesting topic.

In that respect, NMA are English culture, and you can't fall out with that 

You know I like to get deep-hearted sometimes and I don't mean this to be taken too seriously, but... 
It's a thing that brings to mind at times: I see it so that there are lots of reasonable and healthy things that have distincted NMA from nationalist side. NMA's name, history and concept are of course definately connected with your culture, but I can't see any reasons why some similar parts of it couldn't actually happen in other nations too. The ideals make it. Being honest; grading honouring of life, and same time recongnizing your/our own roots/culture within us is the key point which has maybe prevented NMA drawing nationalist extreme group's interest. They can be jealous there freely, we don't have to bother. 

I do find it very sad that people today are ashamed to say, or confused about being proud to be English. It is a shame we only ever dare fly flags during football tournaments.   A total contrast to what I have seen and felt in the States, where flag flying and patriotism is part of everyday life, even though the country is vast and so very much varied from one end to the other, it is still a country with a well defined identity.

I've heard an explanation about the flag thing in US, that most people actually doesn't "see" them because flags are used nearly everywhere.

[Shush]

You know I like to get deep-hearted sometimes and I don't mean this to be taken too seriously, but... 
It's a thing that brings to mind at times: I see it so that there are lots of reasonable and healthy things that have distincted NMA from nationalist side. NMA's name, history and concept are of course definately connected with your culture, but I can't see any reasons why some similar parts of it couldn't actually happen in other nations too. The ideals make it. Being honest; grading honouring of life, and same time recongnizing your/our own roots/culture within us is the key point which has maybe prevented NMA drawing nationalist extreme group's interest. They can be jealous there freely, we don't have to bother. 

THE New Model Army, might well have been used by the far right, but never has. After all, it  was employed as specialist assault force to defeat enemies of England, fought with  ferocity in Scotland 1649, and   guilty of unpleasant deeds in Ireland 1649-50.
Also, The New Model Army was the first English force to wear the famous "red coat", worn by the British army as it dominated large parts of the World, and worn right up until 1885 in the Sudan War. 

I think The New Model Army has not appealed to the far-right , as its primary function was as the fighting force in what was a social revolution in England.

[Heno]

I was in a veterans for war bar in in bourne in cape cod once. I had a new model army t-shirt on. it was really cheap beer, pool table and jukebox. full of really old vets, like 80s and 90s and stuff. walking back from the jacks and this old guy sees me with me bald head and tee on and says - how you doing son, what division were you in? I just said the Bradford battalion and he said he never heard of them and walked off

last year  I was walking through Atlanta airport and they were checking passports. same thing; nma teeshirt, short hair and the girl doing security stopped me and said "mr henry, I'd just like to thank you for keeping our country safe overseas"

[Master Ray]

My mate (who is not active on this forum so can't post it for himself... Hi, Dan!) told me how he was in the US a couple of months ago, also wearing an NMA t-shirt and people seemed to think he was part of some gun-crazy cult... 

Some brilliant responses right here on this thread.

[szmurf]

Yeah - I get some looks when I wear a NMA tee in Nashville.

[Heno]

man so true. but some of the leftover crack shirts just amaze people. like the shoot the kids at school one leads people to believe you are advocating shooting kids at school.

I gotta lose a little weight so I can fit back into some of my more disturbing tees