Some sort of a gallup

[Bunny]

Idopas. I could have rambled on for ages too. Its obviously a subject everyone has a vested interest in.. I do agree with a lot of things youre saying too.

Healthcare. Well from my personal experience their are good and bad and down right couldnt care less. I know of one consultant who refused someone a cancer scan because it cost so many hundreds of pounds. Im not gonna thunder on about it. Yes it is free, well discounting national insurance and tax. But equally their is so much financial waste in the NHS that ultimately could cost a life.  But is it the best without paying a small fortune? Why is someones health better looked after if they pay more for it??

By employment im referring to several things. Without boasting, Im well paid for what I do. However I havent had a pay rise in three years now because of the recession. Whilst I have struggled along, it galls me that the cost of living hasnt fallen or that finance companies, energy companies etc are raking in millions. So how is everyone in it together?I dread to how those less fortunate than myself cope. Meanwhile council services are cut, which by and large affect the less fortunate. My point I guess is not everyone is rewarded for hard work, simply cos of the nature of work they do.

I know Im coming across as moany but honestly Im generally a happy chappy. I enjoy what I do and I know that its not all bad....but that doesnt mean things cant be better. Or I have Seasonal Affectance Disorder and am craving the sun!!! Anyhoo. Soap box is away for good. Honest

[Anna Woman von NRW]

It's been a good read this thread, seeing it develop.

Taken on a global level it's patently obvious to any brain capable of thought that Britain/Europe are right up there in the Champions League in regard to quality of life but that's just the way it is, we got lucky with the life dice. But that doesn't mean we don't have a right to demand an equitable and just share of the pie (obviously individual definitions of that will vary) and that we see an improvement and expansion in our quality of life. But that's bollox though innit? Because right now it seems there's less and less equitable and just anything, there's scant evidence I can see of improvement or expansion.  Several other posters have noted how we're pretty much moving backwards as far as any sort of financial/economic situation is concerned Danny's post in particular resonated. I earn a decentish wage (although believe me the Gender pay gap IS real - promise you), but the costs of everything put together just to keep a minimal quality of life for me & my son with a  few special things each is now pretty much impossible to balance with income and when the next round of increases in everything comes in April ......

The idea that we are in it together and that while wages have stagnated/shrunk and while cost of living has increased to atone for the financial disasters and the idea that those responsible or who benefited from the good times have also shared the costs is simply laughable. But such is the way of the world for those of us in western Europe at least so Ruscoe - Give or take a few variations here and there pretty much everywhere is the same - have I helped ? 

[Rusco]

(This post concerns mostly Finnish things here, but hope you can forgive that. I'll answer some quotes to things 'above' in the text. Hopefully we can talk about things in a wider scale too. How about you Germans, people from States, Spain, France etc. there...?)

And we moan, Idopas. That's for sure . We've moaned always, but silently behind the doors.
There's even a certain, tens of years old radio program where people (mostly retired or drunk) call by a phone, they moan some minutes about the living and no one can interrupt that. Really. Like talking to a telephone answer. The program lasts two hours and that's it...once in a week.  I don't mean to boast but asquiescence and humility 'til death, as well as adamancy about working have always been kind of our key characteristics. When a big boss tell 'you' should save, save and save because there's a recession and they're raising taxation every year - we'll do that always but moan behind. There are only few demonstrations people dare to go to or organise. This applies mostly my age and especially older people. The new so called Y-generation seem to be a bit different and they're probably gonna change many things.

Incidentally Rusco, the taxi drivers at work just in my small area of the world will wholly outnumber the Police.. Therefore if you're a victim of crime, call a cab 

Haaha . Well nowadays there are less both police and ambulance here and we're prompted to take a taxi because they'll come sooner anyway.

From what I know about it, my direct experience of the place the few times I've been and what I hear from my Finnish friends, compared to Finland the quality of life (in terms of welfare and services provided by the state) DOES suck here. The UK, especially England and most especially the south east of England, is becoming more and more a great place to live if you're rich (look at all the scumbag bankers that caused the crisis we are still paying for, the Russian mafia bosses, sorry I mean oligarchs, and oil sheiks, all of whom prosper and practically own the whole of London between them) and a terrible place to live if you're not.

At first, I have to tell you Danny you actually made me to reassess my thoughts thorough.
Yes, we have a huge healthcare system which has been created in a way no one should drop out of it. Education, schools and day care for children have reached top levels in a comparison if not the best once, they say. There's also a level of so-called "happiness" that's compared between nations and once Finland was ranked very high in it. <- When I heard that from news, my first reaction was a laugh: this country of melancholic & suspicious angry backwood moaners.

Well we're too credulous and have sold huge domains to foreign companies like to a French mining firm who instantly started to mine uranium and no one couldn't be aware about that. Our laws depending on mining were 100 years old! (Oh FS what idiots we've been to.) The majority of people have still been on behalf of nuclear power which is something I'm very ashamed about. There are big territories in Lapland too where some foreign companies are starting to make big business. We're afraid they'll spoil the earth there.

There's a certain amount in us being suspicious and it has a LOT to do with the two wars we've had in 2000th century (70 and 90 years ago and most of the 1900th century). Many might say we hate all the conquerors due the past... And once my Australian friend, an Australian-Finnish pair, moved back to Australia after trying to live here few years. They said people are too racist and suspicious here to believe enough in their skills at their occupation. There's something true in what they said and quite many would admit there's a problem.

As Idopas said about the money spent on to EU, I think the amount has been bigger earlier. We have a rightwing government nowadays and there are some quarters and ugly parties trying to benefit about it and spreading their anti-EU views. They've met also with UKIP in searching for a co-operation inside EU.
We really should be aware about them. The earlier governments before 2008 created many great systems for healthcare and f.e. to a quick aid for mental health directed for youngsters, but the present government cut those resources because they're in a frenzy of modifying the system towards middle-conservative rightwing ethics. They made serious mistakes and we're paying the cost now. 

Fair means different things to different people. And of course those who try to define fair in their eyes which usually means it's laced with lashings of political bias, economic viewpoint, situational position, emotional experiences, love and/or hatred, and prejudices good or bad (though even that is subjective).

Well said that. 'Fair' is a difficult word when you combine things like trust and parliamentary politics. Politics is after all taking care of every one's lives, organising and making decisions. But I think we could say also; every politician is a populist regardless what side they are - in a situation that populism means benefitting about saying exactly whatever people seem to want to hear - to reach the intended purpose he/she had.

I  think all we can do is keep trying, look at how we perform globally to see it we are at or near the top of the good league and look after our fellow brothers and sisters best we can.

Totally agree with that. 

[ldopas]

Rusco, thanks for that post. In the end we are lucky to live in two good countries, certainly compared to a lot of the world. that we can say.

My comparison wasn't to say anything bad about Finland, it sounds great, I was really saying "c'mon UK people lets realise it could be much worse in the world........MUCH worse". 

[ldopas]

It's been a good read this thread, seeing it develop.

Taken on a global level it's patently obvious to any brain capable of thought that Britain/Europe are right up there in the Champions League in regard to quality of life but that's just the way it is, we got lucky with the life dice. But that doesn't mean we don't have a right to demand an equitable and just share of the pie (obviously individual definitions of that will vary) and that we see an improvement and expansion in our quality of life. But that's bollox though innit? Because right now it seems there's less and less equitable and just anything, there's scant evidence I can see of improvement or expansion.  Several other posters have noted how we're pretty much moving backwards as far as any sort of financial/economic situation is concerned Danny's post in particular resonated. I earn a decentish wage (although believe me the Gender pay gap IS real - promise you), but the costs of everything put together just to keep a minimal quality of life for me & my son with a  few special things each is now pretty much impossible to balance with income and when the next round of increases in everything comes in April ......

The idea that we are in it together and that while wages have stagnated/shrunk and while cost of living has increased to atone for the financial disasters and the idea that those responsible or who benefited from the good times have also shared the costs is simply laughable. But such is the way of the world for those of us in western Europe at least so Ruscoe - Give or take a few variations here and there pretty much everywhere is the same - have I helped ? 

I agree with much of what you post Anna.

But a couple of points. you talk about "those responsible". Yepp banks, politicians etc were at the core, but so are we. We personally ramped up too much personal debt, we took out credit we couldn't afford, we spent more than we had thinking we could pay it back, we extended ourselves further than our abilities would ever allow us to recoup. That wasn't the banks fault, in the end some personal responsibility has to come back to those that spent too much in better times, not because we needed to to survive, but because we wanted to. And I hold my own hands up along everyone else here. I know there is heroin available in certain pubs near me, doesn't mean I've got to take it though! 

You say

But that doesn't mean we don't have a right to demand an equitable and just share of the pie (obviously individual definitions of that will vary)

.

That is a great sentence and I note you also pointed out that it will mean different things to different people. and you are 100% correct. What is equitable? What just share? And by far the biggest question to me; what right?

If we postulate on those 3 from left to right, and let me say straight away I don't have an answer, I have a viewpoint. That there is the real problem we all have. Someone is going to have to impose their viewpoint on others, which can be kryptonite to democracy I'm afraid (though I'm sure some would argue that is happening anyway).

Equitable? the easier of the 3 probably. I think we can all agree that the minimum wage needs raising. But how high. If I were an employee I would have one answer, but as an employer which I am I can give you a ceiling over which I would struggle to keep my business going. So who feels lucky punks?  (BTW I pay salaries monthly not minimum wage OK!!!!).

Just share? Now it gets much much harder. I can only use my business as a template here, and perhaps that can extrapolate? I started my business with my business partner (a woman Anna, 50/50 ok equal!  ), with what we had in our bank accounts which wasn't much, loans from family converted to shares and a bank loan (with guarantees attached they would take everything I own if it failed). We worked all the hours god sent in the 1990s and now it is a decent SME employing people. So here is the pop quiz? If someone joined in 2002, should I give them part ownership as a just share? Nope is my answer. Because they took no risk to start it, me and my partner and the shareholders did.

The difference being I get risk reward of ownership I'm always thinking worrying doing business, employees get (from us) a decent salary for a set number of hours and then they can leave their work behind and go home. If it fails they lose a job, I lose a job and everything, plus future earnings garnered to pay back the bank. And I believe, though luckily not had to test, as a past director I would struggle to access benefits I would need to survive, that the employees would be able to. I also have the burden of responsibility for them, which I take very seriously. But hold the phone....the Green party want automatic company ownership by employees. Just? That is the question!

The impossible question,and you alluded to it is Rights? Do people have a right to demand money from my business, which they did not struggle to create or take risk in. Yes and no is my answer.

Yes, I and the company believe we as a civilised society must protect anyone not as fortunate, so I happily (well my accountant would say I moan but hey-ho) pay all my taxes. I do not believe in tax avoidance, though I do not blame companies for doing it though and before you all start shouting, all the government need to do if they are serious is close the loopholes we do not need permission from other countries for us to do it ourselves. so appealing for morality to the corporate world is hit and miss. Blame the politicos! Having said that we are the 3rd highest taxed country in the G20!!!

But there are people in society, a minority true, who actually contribute very little. Should they have a right to take over my company or raid the coffers? If so, why? If the answer you give is yes, then it would be easier for me to shut it down, and join their ranks, I might get a free weekend now and again! 

Again I've droned on....but to me these excellent things Anna poses are answerable, but not in our current polarised political world. We seem to tattoo "socialist", capitalist", "eco-warrior" etc onto our foreheads and n'er the twain shall meet. Most solutions, the best are compromise and mixes of ideologies, like a good dish. but at the moment I don't think we are grown up politically as a nation to make those decisions

[ldopas]

PS poor Rusco! He askes a simple question now he is getting War and Peace quoted back at him!!! 

[Rusco]

No worries. I'd not call it that unless you don't take flamethrowers from your pockets  . It's interesting to share our views internationally about the topics and explore the words like progress, welfare and happiness what they actually are in the modern world.

I like to think and talk about things with a deep heart. But I know I've made some threads in the past concerning topics that went too far. I've learned...

[Bunny]

And ultimately, we learn from understanding others experiences and views. Everyday's a school day 

[Danny]

We personally ramped up too much personal debt, we took out credit we couldn't afford, we spent more than we had thinking we could pay it back, we extended ourselves further than our abilities would ever allow us to recoup.

I did none of that - I have no debt whatsoever, a) cos I'm now lucky enough to have a decent job that allows me to pay for everything I need (which like I said is more than quite a few other people can say), b) cos I'm doubly-lucky that my parents hammered into me from a very young age that if you can't afford it you don't buy it, end of, and that there's no shame in that - something I can never thank them enough for, and c) cos yet again I was lucky to have been born in a system and a country which - at the time, now it's very different - allowed access to education (including university) and healthcare to everyone, not just the millionaires (ok, healthcare might still be free at present, but the toryscum have already started privatising it and if they win the next election I'm pretty sure it won't be any longer), so I didn't need to run debts when I was younger and had less money.
Yes, some people took out too much, but not everyone; and of those who did many only did it cos it was freely available and they often felt they were actively pressured (almost forced, in fact, in many ways) to do it... by the banks and the whole system, which was based on that; so the blame for the crisis still lays squarely at the feet of the scumbags in the city and at Westminster, certainly not the people who are being made to pay for it now.