Author Topic: So... an NMA track you REALLY don't like..?  (Read 7944 times)

Whirlwind

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In actuality they probably completely understand it
.
No, in actuality they probably completely misunderstand it.

8

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Seems I'm not understanding the line that worries me most, from "Notice Me"...
« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2019, 06:11:24 AM »
"I'll kill myself while you are watching"   from   Notice Me

8, I don't want to be rude but you clearly have no understanding of that line.

Why are you trying to stoke up controversy?  That was rude.  How do you know they don't understand what it means. that was not the question; to explain its meaning. They were saying they don't like that line, it affects them.  In actuality they probably completely understand it and that is what fires something up in them to not like it, perhaps it pertains to their experience.

Wow, I am simultaneously deeply moved and at a loss for words.  A genuinely kind, good person - gentleman - in you... Thank you SO much for this, ldopas.  :)


"I'll kill myself while you are watching" from Notice Me
8, I don't want to be rude but you clearly have no understanding of that line.

Ok, floor's yours Mark, explain the line to me then... please.  It's one of the lines that has crushed me ever since first hearing it, in a tearful, worrisome, sad and helpless, kind of way.  So an explanation, from anyone really, would be genuinely appreciated, welcomed.
'Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you will always long to return.'

'Just as courage imperils life,
fear protects it.'


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Whirlwind

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Ok, floor's yours Mark, explain the line to me then... please.  It's one of the lines that has crushed me ever since first hearing it, in a tearful, worrisome, sad and helpless, kind of way.  So an explanation, from anyone really, would be genuinely appreciated, welcomed.
.
I would actually explain the line to you and perhaps ease your mind a bit, but you ask Mark to do it. You play silly internet games calling me someone I am not (as if I need some other account to be who I am. Do I really come across as someone who is afraid to be who I am?). No, you asked Mark to explain the line. So let Mark do it.

8

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I would actually explain the line to you and perhaps ease your mind a bit, but you ask Mark to do it.  You play silly internet games calling me someone I am not (as if I need some other account to be who I am.  Do I really come across as someone who is afraid to be who I am?).  No, you asked Mark to explain the line.  So let Mark do it.

lol.  ;)  Ok, allow me to correct myself then...  The floor's yours Whirlwind, please explain the line to me.  It's one of the lines that has crushed me ever since first hearing it, in a tearful, worrisome, sad and helpless, kind of way.  So an explanation, from anyone really, would be genuinely appreciated, welcomed.
'Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you will always long to return.'

'Just as courage imperils life,
fear protects it.'


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ldopas

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Ok, floor's yours Mark, explain the line to me then... please.  It's one of the lines that has crushed me ever since first hearing it, in a tearful, worrisome, sad and helpless, kind of way.  So an explanation, from anyone really, would be genuinely appreciated, welcomed.
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I would actually explain the line to you and perhaps ease your mind a bit, but you ask Mark to do it. You play silly internet games calling me someone I am not (as if I need some other account to be who I am. Do I really come across as someone who is afraid to be who I am?). No, you asked Mark to explain the line. So let Mark do it.

Again as I said before. Why are you so reactionary to everything that people say. Its like you get off trying to stir things up, start arguments. I say this as someone who has done that in the past on this board. And I've been posting on this board and earlier iterations of it for 15 years plus.

Why do you get off doing it?

Whirlwind

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….The floor's yours Whirlwind, please explain the line to me.

"Or I'll kill myself while you are watching" is the line in question.

Has to be looked at in context of the whole song. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you may be seeing it as a line about suicide. It really isn't.
 
I'll take any drug in the whole damn world if you'll only notice me
Mainline poisons by the score - please will you notice me
I'll break any law, hurt anybody - for God's sake notice me
Cut my wrists and slash my face for Christ's sake notice me
I'll drink anybody into the ground if you'll only notice me
I'll kick the teeth out of anyone here - come on and notice me
I'll wear the clothes and cut my hair - please will you notice me
I'll be a pop star and I'll stand on stage - for God's sake notice me

Ch:
Who told him that it mattered?
Who told him that anyone cared?
He's got an overgrown sense of his own importance
No one's really bothered around here
He was such a quiet boy, never any trouble before . . .

I'll get a big car and drive like a maniac - please notice me
I'll make a lot of money and tread on you if you'll only notice me
I'll tell you any lies you want to hear - for God's sake notice me
Or I'll kill myself while you are watching


The song is simply about an immature lad who has no idea how to fit in. He wants to be noticed, which he believes will make him significant, part of the group, whatever. "He's got an overgrown sense of his own importance" is how the others feel about him. This lad threatens to do everything in a big way: get a big car and drive like a maniac, drink anybody into the ground, beat up people, make a lot of money...anything big to be noticed. And he ultimately goes to the most stupid way to be noticed -- suicide.

He sees suicide as "look at me." He's not depressed, he's not sad, he's just an idiotic immature lad who has no idea what it takes to be accepted. To him suicide is no different than having a lot of money, driving a big car. Just a way of being noticed.

You may be looking too deeply into the kill myself line. It really is no different than the wearing clothes, cut my hair, break any law, be a pop star lines. Kid just wants to be noticed. Ignored so he thinks these are the ways to be noted.

Song and that line is not about suicide. Just about a mixed up kid who doesn't understand that a friendly smile, a kind gesture, a good wit (some here lack that),  hitting a home run in a game, acing a geometry test, helping at a soup kitchen...those are the ways to be noticed. The dope in the song is clueless to that.


I had a friend in high school, Don, who was exactly like the kid in "Notice Me." We'd walk into 7/11 and Don would just punch a guy who was walking out the door right in the face. He would drive like a maniac, he would eat slugs (ate a toilet cake once...you know those things in the urinals to freshen up the urinal), challenge anybody to a drinking contest, bent over and ran head first into a gas pump to break the glass...We knew why Don would do that stuff...he just wanted to be noticed. He was messed up in that he couldn't believe people would be friends with him unless he did crazy things. (Arm chair psychiatry here: Don did have an older brother who was an athletic God around town. We all knew that's why Don did his crazy stunts. Insecurity.)

If you are distressed over "suicide" in "Notice Me," don't be. The song has zero to do with a youth killing himself. About insecurity.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 07:23:44 PM by Whirlwind »

Whirlwind

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Again as I said before. Why are you so reactionary to everything that people say.

Go look up the fable about the scorpion and the frog. It will explain to you a lot about New Yorkers.
 It's our nature!


8

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Quote from: Whirlwind link=topic=8699.msg175231#msg175231date=1547576861
"Or I'll kill myself while you are watching" is the line in question.  Has to be looked at in context of the whole song.  I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you may be seeing it as a line about suicide.  It really isn't.

You are correct in your assumption, I am seeing it as a line about suicide.  How can one not?  It's such a strong declaration / statement, that I cannot help but to take it, in such a manner.   :-[

I'll take any drug in the whole damn world if you'll only notice me
Mainline poisons by the score - please will you notice me
I'll break any law, hurt anybody - for God's sake notice me
Cut my wrists and slash my face for Christ's sake notice me
I'll drink anybody into the ground if you'll only notice me
I'll kick the teeth out of anyone here - come on and notice me
I'll wear the clothes and cut my hair - please will you notice me
I'll be a pop star and I'll stand on stage - for God's sake notice me

Ch:
Who told him that it mattered?
Who told him that anyone cared?
He's got an overgrown sense of his own importance
No one's really bothered around here
He was such a quiet boy, never any trouble before . . .

I'll get a big car and drive like a maniac - please notice me
I'll make a lot of money and tread on you if you'll only notice me
I'll tell you any lies you want to hear - for God's sake notice me
Or I'll kill myself while you are watching


The song is simply about an immature lad who has no idea how to fit in.

I don't know, Whirlwind, but "immature" seems a bit harsh.  I would say, young and inexperienced, perhaps.  Maybe the boy or young man (in the song) might've been a victim of rejection, neglect / abandonment, misguidance, frustration, hopelessness, desperation... all things of which would definitely cause anyone, be they male or female, to become highly insecure.   :-[

He wants to be noticed, which he believes will make him significant, part of the group, whatever.  "He's got an overgrown sense of his own importance" is how the others feel about him.  This lad threatens to do everything in a big way: get a big car and drive like a maniac, drink anybody into the ground, beat up people, make a lot of money...anything big to be noticed.  And he ultimately goes to the most stupid way to be noticed -- suicide.

I don't know about that either, circumstances must've been extremely negative, dark, hopeless, desperate, for the boy / young man in the song to contemplate suicide... even if under the guise of getting attention / being noticed.  Perhaps he's had all that he can take, stomach, handle.  The boy / young man is screaming out.  It's an emotional cry out for help, maybe even love, and acceptance...   :-\   well, it very much seems so to me, at any rate.

He sees suicide as "look at me."  He's not depressed, he's not sad, he's just an idiotic immature lad who has no idea what it takes to be accepted.  To him suicide is no different than having a lot of money, driving a big car.  Just a way of being noticed.

Actually, I think on some seriously deep level, the boy / young man in the song might very well be heavily depressed.  One would have to be, to cry out in such a way.   :'(

You may be looking too deeply into the kill myself line.  It really is no different than the wearing clothes, cut my hair, break any law, be a pop star lines.  Kid just wants to be noticed.  Ignored so he thinks these are the ways to be noted.

No, I disagree with you here, Whirlwind.  The boy / young man in the song is having a gut, emotional reaction to his predicament, and that's how he's manifesting it, via such heavy words / statements.  The boy / young man seems to be in serious turmoil, crying out, reaching out... to anyone, anywhere.    :'(

Song and that line is not about suicide.  Just about a mixed up kid who doesn't understand that a friendly smile, a kind gesture, a good wit (some here lack that), hitting a home run in a game, acing a geometry test, helping at a soup kitchen...those are the ways to be noticed.  The dope in the song is clueless to that.

Hmmm, I wouldn't call the kid / young man in the song a "dope" or even clueless.  I'd say he's lost and is seeking some sort of help,  :-\  relief... maybe even some form of love  (no, not sexual in kind).

I had a friend in high school, Don, who was exactly like the kid in "Notice Me."  We'd walk into 7/11 and Don would just punch a guy who was walking out the door right in the face.  He would drive like a maniac, he would eat slugs (ate a toilet cake once...you know those things in the urinals to freshen up the urinal), challenge anybody to a drinking contest, bent over and ran head first into a gas pump to break the glass...We knew why Don would do that stuff...he just wanted to be noticed.  He was messed up in that he couldn't believe people would be friends with him unless he did crazy things.  (Arm chair psychiatry here:  Don did have an older brother who was an athletic God around town.  We all knew that's why Don did his crazy stunts.  Insecurity.)

Well, you know what they say... bullies bully because they themselves are being bullied OR are around bullies.   :-\   But what do I know.

If you are distressed over "suicide" in "Notice Me," don't be.  The song has zero to do with a youth killing himself.  About insecurity.

Nothing has changed unfortunately, I still am distressed about the song, by that line especially.  I too, see the song as being about insecurity, but an insecurity that has reached its boiling point, for lack of a better term / phrase.   :-[
'Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you will always long to return.'

'Just as courage imperils life,
fear protects it.'


  .~.↝*↜.~.
⁂ Da Vinci ⁂

Whirlwind

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Re: So... an NMA track you REALLY don't like..?
« Reply #128 on: January 16, 2019, 12:16:53 AM »
I'll take two of your points:

"desperate, for the boy / young man in the song to contemplate suicide..."

He is not contemplating suicide. Nothing in the song indicates that. When he says "I'll kill myself while you are watching" it is just another in a long line of attention grabbing behavior. Drive like a maniac, wear clothes, cut my hair, make lots of money, break any law, become a pop star....those are all just a long laundry list of attention getting ploys. Those are the things that he believes would get others to notice him. The suicide is just as stupid a suggestion as "be a pop star and stand on the stage." I ask you, do you honestly think he is contemplating being a pop star? Exactly how does one become a pop star? Is there really a college degree that one earns and then you become a pop star? See my point? It's all just a  stupid fantasy, for lack of a better word, for this guy. Become a pop star, suicide...these are just things in his mind that he thinks will make people notice him. It's not real. Tell me how real are the prospects of becoming a pop star? And the other things - drink anybody into the ground, get a big car, make lots of money... - are all fantasy, too.


"The boy / young man seems to be in serious turmoil,.... "

No, he's not. He's merely a kid who wants to fit in. Welcome to the club. Every human on Earth goes through that. Dude, there are songs out there that do express feelings of suicide or destructive behavior (Pearl Jam's "Jeremy," for instance). If you listen to them and then listen to "Notice Me" you'd see the New Model Army song is not a song about suicide.

8

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I'll take two of your points:

"desperate, for the boy / young man in the song to contemplate suicide..."

He is not contemplating suicide.  Nothing in the song indicates that.  When he says "I'll kill myself while you are watching" it is just another in a long line of attention grabbing behavior.  Drive like a maniac, wear clothes, cut my hair, make lots of money, break any law, become a pop star....those are all just a long laundry list of attention getting ploys.  Those are the things that he believes would get others to notice him.  The suicide is just as stupid a suggestion as "be a pop star and stand on the stage."  I ask you, do you honestly think he is contemplating being a pop star?  Exactly how does one become a pop star?  Is there really a college degree that one earns and then you become a pop star?  See my point?  It's all just a  stupid fantasy, for lack of a better word, for this guy.  Become a pop star, suicide...these are just things in his mind that he thinks will make people notice him.  It's not real.  Tell me how real are the prospects of becoming a pop star?  And the other things - drink anybody into the ground, get a big car, make lots of money... - are all fantasy, too.

Yeah, but the suicide line just isn't bullshit or fake to me.  melancholy lost lol, I'm getting SO much more confused, now.   :-[  What do the rest of you floating here think and feel about the line  :(  song  "Notice Me"?  Anyone know whether Mr. Sullivan has ever spoken about this particular song, in an interview, either in print   :-\  or on film?  Care to comment, help me understand? 

"The boy / young man seems to be in serious turmoil,.... "

No, he's not.  He's merely a kid who wants to fit in.  Welcome to the club.  Every human on Earth goes through that.  Dude, there are songs out there that do express feelings of suicide or destructive behavior (Pearl Jam's "Jeremy," for instance).  If you listen to them and then listen to "Notice Me" you'd see the New Model Army song is not a song about suicide.

NMA's  "Notice Me"  may not be about suicide, but the "I'll kill myself while you are watching" line, if anything, stands out like no other to me.  Why does Mr. Sullivan close the song with that line, though?  Why?  What does it mean?  And, what about the  "he was such a quiet boy, he was never any trouble before"  line?  Something obviously must've changed in the boy / young man (in the song) to react in such a desperate way, make such a declaration... no?   ???
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 01:10:53 AM by 8 »
'Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you will always long to return.'

'Just as courage imperils life,
fear protects it.'


  .~.↝*↜.~.
⁂ Da Vinci ⁂

Whirlwind

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Re: So... an NMA track you REALLY don't like..?
« Reply #130 on: January 16, 2019, 01:39:17 AM »
Quote
"but the suicide line just isn't bullshit or fake to me."

But the lines "be a pop star and stand on the stage," "make a lot of money," are bullshit or fake to you. Do you see what you are doing? You are cherry picking one line rather than put it into the context of all the lines. ALL THE LINES ARE BULLSHIT! Do you really think he is going to beat up everybody? Do you really think he is going to be a pop star? But you pick one line and say that's the true one.

Once again, all the lines are just in his mind what he thinks would get people to notice him. How can he actually do half of them? How can he kick the teeth out of everybody? How can he be a pop star? He can't and won't. Same goes for the suicide line. All the lines are bullshit.

 I will say this. If in the song the main character actually did all the crazy behavior, then that final line about suicide would be a scary line. "I take any drug," "I break any law"... All his destructive behavior is reaching the final stage....suicide. But the song uses "I'll" --  I will --  a future tense. None of it is happening. "I'll beat up everybody," "I'll be a pop star"... Wishful thinking. It's all bullshit.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 01:41:57 AM by Whirlwind »

8

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Lost in translation...
« Reply #131 on: January 16, 2019, 02:48:34 AM »
"but the suicide line just isn't bullshit or fake to me."
But the lines "be a pop star and stand on the stage,"  "make a lot of money," are bullshit or fake to you. 

I neither said nor implied that, Whirlwind.


Do you see what you are doing?  You are cherry picking one line rather than put it into the context of all the lines.

Yes, I am cherry picking, as you put it.  As I mentioned from the get go, the  "I'll kill myself while you are watching" line is THE only line that has ever made me feel unsettled, uneasy, most worried.


ALL THE LINES ARE BULLSHIT!  Do you really think he is going to beat up everybody?  Do you really think he is going to be a pop star?  But you pick one line and say that's the true one.

NONE of the lines are bullshit.  What I meant was that the  "I'll kill myself while you are watching"  line seems the most real of all of them.  I can't articulate it any better than that, properly... sorry.


Once again, all the lines are just in his mind what he thinks would get people to notice him.  How can he actually do half of them?  How can he kick the teeth out of everybody?  How can he be a pop star?  He can't and won't.  Same goes for the suicide line.  All the lines are bullshit.

How can you be so sure of this?  What in the song tells you this?  You, like me, are just making an educated guess, assumption of sorts.  None of us will ever truly know, unless Mr. Sullivan officially addresses the line in question / the song, at some point down the road.


I will say this.  If in the song the main character actually did all the crazy behavior, then that final line about suicide would be a scary line. "I take any drug," "I break any law"... All his destructive behavior is reaching the final stage....suicide.

That's where I'm coming from, how I'm interpreting it.  It certainly is a very scary song, terrifying line, when you look at it from this angle. 


But the song uses "I'll" --  I will --  a future tense.  None of it is happening.  "I'll beat up everybody,"  "I'll be a pop star"... Wishful thinking.  It's all bullshit.

I suppose the "I'll" thing you're on about could be true.  But we don't really know the boy / young man in the song do we?  We are just painted a bleak picture of the boy / young man, by Justin.  However, if we pay closer attention to how and the way in which the song is actually delivered unto us - both in musical and vocal terms - then, we get a truer sense of what the boy / young man's mindset, turmoil, despair, inner pain really is like... get a clearer picture of the boy / young man's character, inner demons, workings, what-have-you.
'Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you will always long to return.'

'Just as courage imperils life,
fear protects it.'


  .~.↝*↜.~.
⁂ Da Vinci ⁂

Stephanie

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Yeah, but the suicide line just isn't bullshit or fake to me.  melancholy lost lol, I'm getting SO much more confused, now.   :-[  What do the rest of you floating here think and feel about the line  :(  song  "Notice Me"?  Anyone know whether Mr. Sullivan has ever spoken about this particular song, in an interview, either in print   :-\  or on film?  Care to comment, help me understand? 
I don't think I can help you to understand...but the thing is - I feel I don't have a right to even try.
The way I see it, what makes lyrics really good is that they speak to different people in different ways. We are all different, have had different experiences in our respective lives.
Regardless of what the writer of any given song might have had in mind when writing it (well, sometimes it's plain obvious, but not always), for one reason or another they might mean something completely different to me. And then something else entirely for someone else. And none of that is wrong or bad. It's what makes lyrics great, the fact that they touch people, reach them, ring true for them.
I have even had it happen that one and the same song meant something else for me when I was young than it does now.
And that is ok.

As far as this specific song is concerned, I have always interpreted it as some young, probably very insecure person being obsessively in love with someone (as you often are when you are still young)- and getting all worked up by their feelings not being requited (is that the correct term to use in this context?). So this person is being all dramatic, imagining what they would do to get the object of their desire to finally notice them.
Dunno, I think we have all been there to a degree, haven't we?  ;)
BUT, depending on how insecure someone is, and depending on whether or not there are more mature, grounded people in that person's life, it is easy to see how such feelings/ways of thinking can get out of hand and indeed become more serious.

Until I had read your posts it has never ocurred to me to consider that the song might be about someone who has already gone a step further - into morbid obsession, or indeed even depression - but I see how, depending on maybe personal experiences, this is a very possible way of looking at it.
And yes, I can also see how this can make you feel very sad and uncomfortable.

I don't feel that way about this song - but if you do this is perfectly legitimate, whyever wouldn't it be?

And if our dear Whirlwind interprets the song in yet another way - excellent.  8)

I don't recall reading about Justin Sullivan saying anything about this song, sorry.

But I think it's perfectly fine to interpret songs in your own way...and it can be really interesting to talk about the different ways in which people understand lyrics.

Whirlwind

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...
I have always interpreted it as some young, probably very insecure person....this person is being all dramatic, imagining what they would do to get the object of their desire to finally notice them.
Dunno, I think we have all been there to a degree, haven't we?  ;)

Until I had read your posts it has never ocurred to me to consider that the song might be about someone who has already gone a step further - into morbid obsession, or indeed even depression -

Bingo.

8, as I said at the start, you are misunderstanding that lyric.

But, hey, you can interpret any song the way you want. If you want to think "Smalltown England" is about London, have at it.

Stephanie

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8, as I said at the start, you are misunderstanding that lyric.
And that is just not true - none of us can know for sure what the exact meaning is, unless we get to ask Mr. Sullivan to explain what he had in mind when writing that song.

It is entirely possible that 8 has it just right and we do not - or maybe we all got it wrong - only what I said is that there can never really be a right or wrong with these things, that's the beauty of really good art.

But...it's fine, if you need to be right, so be it - as per my definition I can't and won't discuss this any further.  ::)