Author Topic: Ukraine!  (Read 3612 times)

cthulhu

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2015, 11:18:25 PM »
putin has no interest in destabilizing europe. it's the nato and the transatlantic relationship which has interest in destabilizing europe. there were several attempts of russia to bond more with europe in the past, to build a transit road which would make commerce easier. that is seen as a danger in those transatlantic relationships. putin did hold a speech in german in front of the german cabinet in 2001 to show his attitude.
nato did encircle russia and broke treaties. "**** the eu" came from nuland. the financial crisis came from goldman sachs which is destabilizing europe.

george friedman from stratfor is explaining that one of the main goals of us politics was to undermine relationhip between russia and germany for almost a century:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaL5wCY99l8

and here is stratfor wargaming russia's military options in ukraine:
https://www.stratfor.com/video/wargaming-russias-military-options-ukraine

There's a sentry in a uniform to watch the VIPs along the hall
Strategical discussions taking place behind the steel plated wall
The agents issue the statements to the waiting press who circulate the words
Justification, propaganda, Western foreign policy across the world




i'm not on the russian side nor am i on the nato side.

i'm just screaming loud i am not at war





« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 11:42:27 PM by cthulhu »
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Rusco

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2015, 09:46:58 AM »
Something's coming.

The fact is, a war is coming. Not this "little" war, something bigger and uglier.

And how are they and the rest going to solve all these  things later? When there's bitterness and if nothing gets solved but only new contracts created, people will remember the consequences again for tens of years.

But to the point about Russia moving towards other nations, like Baltics; Latvia, Estonia or something as you assume...? No, I don't believe that they'd invade a Nato country. That's just too much and all of the ways to communication would be lost.

In the Cold War era the nations and different quarters could retain their power by ruling either with fear, contracts and trade. Not by attacking to the center of enemies.
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Billy T

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2015, 01:21:28 PM »
putin has no interest in destabilizing europe. it's the nato and the transatlantic relationship which has interest in destabilizing europe. there were several attempts of russia to bond more with europe in the past, to build a transit road which would make commerce easier. that is seen as a danger in those transatlantic relationships. putin did hold a speech in german in front of the german cabinet in 2001 to show his attitude.
nato did encircle russia and broke treaties. "**** the eu" came from nuland. the financial crisis came from goldman sachs which is destabilizing europe.

george friedman from stratfor is explaining that one of the main goals of us politics was to undermine relationhip between russia and germany for almost a century:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaL5wCY99l8

and here is stratfor wargaming russia's military options in ukraine:
https://www.stratfor.com/video/wargaming-russias-military-options-ukraine

i'm not on the russian side nor am i on the nato side.

i'm just screaming loud i am not at war

That's just silly. For 50+years NATO protected Western Europe from some truly horrible things. Stalin committed a genocide with more than twice as many victims as Hitler's. 13 Million Ukrainians, Moldovans, Tatars, Balts and others, murdered. A crime which Putin and Russia's apologists are still trying to hide. The shield that spared millions from this was NATO.

Today the Baltics, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and others are living free, their journalists can write as they wish with out fear of being murdered, gay citizens can live without being beaten and humiliated at every turn, and the average man or woman is able to put a full meal on the table for their children. ? Also this idea that NATO encircled Russia out of malice is foolish. NATO did not force Poland or any of the new member states to join, they didn't have to, these countries had a long history and understanding of what it was like to live under Russian oppression. They came to NATO not the other way around. Are these people not free to chose for themselves or they are only free to choose for themselves if it doesn't bother Mr. Putin? Are you saying that Poles, Balt's, Czechs etc. are too stupid to figure out things for themselves and so had to be duped into "encircling" Russia?

And 2 more things, no treaty was ever signed limiting NATO expansion, verbal promises were made indeed, but no treaties. Russia has broken, badly it's treaty with Ukraine over it giving up it's stockpiles of nukes.  You may say, ok both sides have broken promises,and that's true, but the important distinction, is that NATO attacked no one, all new NATO members are there voluntarily, Putin did attack. An important difference. Also NATO is never going to launch a first strike against Russia, will never happen, and the Russian's know this too. So all their whining is simply pissing and moaning over lost Empire

All of this in NATO countries and what of Russia....Journalists critical of the regime are murdered, gay citizens have a parade-get attacked by thugs and the police rush into beat up the parade, not the thugs......For twenty years Russia was making money had over fist, and outside Moscow almost nothing was spent to improve the lives of its own people.....45km from the Kremlin, it's still hard to find indoor plumbing....No investment was made in the future, only stealing. NATO will not need to bring down Mr. Putin, time and economics will do that, it's only a question of how many people he kills while we wait for that to happen.



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Billy T

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2015, 01:37:44 PM »
Something's coming.

The fact is, a war is coming. Not this "little" war, something bigger and uglier.

And how are they and the rest going to solve all these  things later? When there's bitterness and if nothing gets solved but only new contracts created, people will remember the consequences again for tens of years.

But to the point about Russia moving towards other nations, like Baltics; Latvia, Estonia or something as you assume...? No, I don't believe that they'd invade a Nato country. That's just too much and all of the ways to communication would be lost.

In the Cold War era the nations and different quarters could retain their power by ruling either with fear, contracts and trade. Not by attacking to the center of enemies.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't think this is likely. But I also don't think it's impossible if it's what Putin feels the regime needs to do to survive. I'm not certain NATO would put up a unified front if it came to pass, so maybe Putin's not either.

I'm also far from alone in thinking it's a possibility. Lithuania reinstating conscription, Poland creating self defense citizens militias, Germany bringing 100 tanks back into service and on and on. The mood I'm seeing all over Eastern Europe is something bigger and uglier is coming, perhaps the mood on the street is affecting my thinking.

The Lithuanian Govt. shut down a Russian language (also Russian state owned) media outlet this week for broadcasting propaganda. This is how Putin is already attacking the Baltics, (google doctrine of hybrid warfare in Russia) An attempt to create discord within the borders of countries with large Russian minorities. And don't discount the effect of this propaganda. My Moldovan buddy got yelled at by his neighbor the other day for supporting the Nazi death camps in Ukraine......The neighbor of course is mono-lingual and all his news comes from one source-the Kremlin.  They propaganda we got on N1 (Russia's biggest station) said that in the Donbas, Ukrainian government troops were lining the roads with crucified babies and children. Not a single photo or video exists of this, but trust us, who else can you?

Putin and his cronies have stolen too much to ever leave office and be safe from each other or one day the Russian people.....Never discount what desperate men may do. Among Putin's biggest fears has got to be a Maidan style movement in Russia, so I don't think anything is 100%off the table.....

And seriously what would the reaction be in Europe if Obama said every day for the past few weeks, he would nuke Russia to get his way. Minds would be lost. Putin is plainly and openly threatening nuclear war to secure his goals.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 01:40:37 PM by Billy T »
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cthulhu

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2015, 02:25:40 PM »
i will only comment on your statement that putin did attack. i think this is the only crucial difference here, so let's talk about it.

as i see it:
there was some demonstrating goin on, which escalated. the sovereign party leader had to flee, because it got very violent. he was not out of business though. a replacemt government was installed in which fascist partys were involved. one of their first political actions was to forbid russian as an official language. people of the crimea got afraid because of the tensiones and did prefer to vote to be under protection from russia.
this is really put in simple words from me.
fact is, it is not solved and cleared until now, who, which party, escalated the tensions by shooting in the crowd.
fact is, that the us said it put over 5 billion dollars into the interest of an new government in ukraine.
fact is that fascist and nazi groups take part in the momentary government.
fact is, that there were votes by the crimean people.
fact is, that the crimea region was just 1954 given by chrustchow to the ukraine.

whe i say fact is i don't mean that i am in right with my opinion. i just cannot see a russian aggresion here. i see a reaction to a difficult situation. and please watch the videos i posted to put that into context.

we should be very careful to blame just putin for the situation. i think this cannot be right and fuels the real danger of a bigger war.

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Pumpkin

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2015, 02:41:01 PM »
I completely agree with Billy T and have expressed similar sentiments over the years here about NATO, an organisation I fully support. The reason we actually have an enlarged NATO and EU today is simply because of NATO standing up to Soviet aggression and drawing a line in the sand during the post-war era. If not for NATO, Soviet forces would have been much further west.

The new EU states wanted to join NATO and the EU and why not? All you need to do is look at what happened to the western half of Europe in light of Hitler’s defeat and compare it with the Soviet spoils further east. Dire. Why did West Germany progress and East Germany regress further? To this day, Germany is still paying for re-unification through taxation such is the effect of it all.

It would be fair to say that WWII didn’t end in eastern Europe until 1989. This is where Putin comes in: a KGB man in East Germany when the wall came down unable to secure any form of help, because Moscow had realised the game was up. His superior killed himself, the state collapsed to 'capitalists' and Putin had to go home. He still speaks bitterly of this and remains determined to reverse what he considers is Russia’s greatest humiliation. Much of what is going on now can be tied to this and Russia’s losses after WWI. Hence, the clever mixture of communist and royalist sentiments now present. 

Poland has warned Europe of Russia’s impending aggression for a long time and Europe passed it off as paranoia. The wise realised this was true when Putin started to crackdown on political opponents more than a decade ago and see himself as a new 'tsar'; the sceptics realised there was something to it when Georgia was invaded in '08; the Putin apologists still can’t see it with Crimea and parts of eastern Ukraine under a vulgar mixture of Russian nationalists / royalists / communists. Unfortunately, the EU is somewhat afraid of Putin and unwilling to take much of a stand, simply hoping that the shit will settle down now that he’s supposedly been ‘pacified’ with an illegal land grab etc…

There is a very good reason why Brussels has to listen to Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Ukraine – lest for the fact that Soviet ‘liberation’ was anything but and significant Russian minorities pose a threat if they dance to Putin's jig. It’s obvious that Ukraine’s lack of EU and NATO membership precludes it from so-called genuine help, and this is entirely regrettable for so many reasons, but the former countries have this.

Should Putin be mad enough to chance his hand in the hallway of the newer NATO member states, then he will have no one else to blame but himself for unleashing war. NATO is justified in defending an attack on any of its member states. The sad thing is that, given how he raped the Russian economy for his own personal gain, I can easily see him doing the age-old prank of pre-fabricating a set of circumstances which ‘excuse’ and ‘justify’ further Russian expansion to safeguard the ancient Kremlin paranoia that The West is out to get it. See Crimea and the bullshit song and dance that the Kremlin wasn't really interested in it...

When you have Stalin as your role model, nothing is beyond your wildest dreams, especially when Europe seems as hesitate to act now as it did in the 1930s and early 1990s.

We are still paying the price for not doing to Russia what was done with Germany and Japan after they lost WWII. 

cthulhu

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2015, 03:50:14 PM »
wow, i didn't know i was in a nato propaganda front here. ;-)

but, if you want to discuss, please just answer the questions with the examples i gave, to give this a solid ground. so this one question, this is about ukraine.

who attacked ukraine?

and another question when the subject is nato.
you mean the organisation which had sleeper cells all over europe which conducted terrorism?
they sponsored fascist groups, again, which made false flag terror attacks in italy in the 70s to blame it on communist groups. all done in fear of an russian aggression. as they put it always. and they did most likely at least one terror attack in the 80s here in germany. the oktoberfest attack which is just now being reopened because of new facts. these facts are about "gladio" natos secret armys, the nato operation of the sleeper cells.
dr. daniele ganser wrote about it and uncovered it. he is the founder of the swiss isntitute for peace and energy research.

so, as i don't see a russian aggresion since the ww2, and i think it was a german aggresionn then anyway, the nato had maybe the right to exist as long as the warsaw pact was intact. since then the nato for me is nothing but an arm of the military industrial complex with the only justification of a fear of a russion aggression. you need enemys if you want your weapons to be sold. that is the context i see the nato in.

in the recent past i have terribly aggressive statements heard only by nato commanders and not from putin. since the maidan happened all diplomatic attempts are being bombarded with the only arguement that putin is evil and therefore cannot be trusted. they don't want to protect. you can judge a litlle by the way some is talking. and nato is aggressive in that way.

but again, who attacked ukraine? what is action, what is re-action?



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Billy T

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2015, 04:26:20 PM »
i will only comment on your statement that putin did attack. i think this is the only crucial difference here, so let's talk about it.

as i see it:
there was some demonstrating goin on, which escalated. the sovereign party leader had to flee, because it got very violent. he was not out of business though. a replacemt government was installed in which fascist partys were involved. one of their first political actions was to forbid russian as an official language. people of the crimea got afraid because of the tensiones and did prefer to vote to be under protection from russia.
this is really put in simple words from me.

Partly accurate. There was a demonstration against the scrapping of the EU trade deal by some students, but not by the wider population. Then Yanukovich ordered the demonstrators beaten, students who were protesting non-violently. This is the spark that set the larger fire. People were tired of rampant corruption and of generally living in a way where they felt they had no dignity. So they decided enough is enough and the rest is history. It's true that Western Govts. and the Serbian Organization OTPOR rushed into aid as they could, but the spark and the bulk of all this anger was not some foreign coup. To date not a single one of my Ukrainian friends has gotten a check from the CIA for what they feel is a battle for the soul of their country

We'll get to what a bold faced LIE that 5 billion dollar figure is in one moment

There were far right parties brought into the new government, no more than in France, Britain or dozen other European countries' Less in fact. These far right parties were also largely cleared out in the new elections, with Ukrainians opting for moderates, widely opting. The language law- an unmitigated bit of stupidity. But remember it passed the Rada, the then President vetoed it and it never became law. It also never will.

Quote
fact is, it is not solved and cleared until now, who, which party, escalated the tensions by shooting in the crowd.

That is true

Quote
fact is, that the us said it put over 5 billion dollars into the interest of an new government in ukraine.

Fact is, that is an edited statement doctored by Putin apologists. A LIE. If you read/hear the entire statement what is said is that since 1992 the USA has invested 5 billion dollars into Ukraine. It was spent in various areas trying to develop civil society. No different was done in Poland and dozens of other Eastern European countries in the same time.

Not defending Nuland, I think she's a loathsome little war troll, but this great and grand admission you Putinista's think you've found is just another lie.

Quote
fact is that fascist and nazi groups take part in the momentary government.

A dressed above, largely cleared out during the elections. May I ask what country you are from? Any fascists in your government? Chances are, yes.

Quote
fact is, that there were votes by the crimean people.

Agreed. I do believe that a majority of Crimeans would have voted to join Russia. Thing is we will never know for sure because a real vote wasn't held. Just the population of Ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars who have fled Crimea puts the lie to the 98% figure. It most likely would have been around 70%, but Moscow doesn't like real votes and was taking no chances so they put masked men with machine guns at every polling station. Sounds legit.

Quote
fact is, that the crimea region was just 1954 given by chrustchow to the ukraine.

What the hell does that have to do with anything? Soviet leaders routinely adjusted borders. The leaders of all the former Soviet States themselves agreed to abide by these borders when the CIS was formed following the collapse of the USSR. If historical claim to land is our benchmark, then the Russians need to get the hell out too and leave it for the Tatars.

Quote
whe i say fact is i don't mean that i am in right with my opinion. i just cannot see a russian aggresion here. i see a reaction to a difficult situation. and please watch the videos i posted to put that into context.

we should be very careful to blame just putin for the situation. i think this cannot be right and fuels the real danger of a bigger war.

There are Russian soldiers and weapons uninvited on the territory of Ukraine, there are no tanks or forces from Ukraine on the territory of Russia. But there's no Russian aggression here? You are either lieing or deluded.
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Billy T

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2015, 04:33:01 PM »


in the recent past i have terribly aggressive statements heard only by nato commanders and not from putin. since the maidan happened all diplomatic attempts are being bombarded with the only arguement that putin is evil and therefore cannot be trusted. they don't want to protect. you can judge a litlle by the way some is talking. and nato is aggressive in that way.


Then clean out your ears if you're not hearing them.

On Friday, as Russian Federation tanks and troops poured across the border into eastern Ukraine, Vladimir Putin talked about his country’s most destructive weaponry. “I want to remind you that Russia is one of the most powerful nuclear nations,” he said. “This is a reality, not just words.” Russia, he told listeners, is “strengthening our nuclear deterrence forces.”

That same day, Putin used a term for eastern Ukraine meaning “New Russia.” So when he refers to repelling “any aggression against Russia” and speaks of “nuclear deterrence,” as he did on Friday, the Russian president is really warning us he will use nukes to protect his grab of Ukrainian territory.

For more than a generation, nuclear weapons were considered defensive only. In a few short sentences on Friday, however, Putin made these devices offensive in nature, just another tool to be employed by an aggressor. And to highlight his threat, on Aug. 14 at Yalta, the Crimean city he had seized this year, Putin mentioned “surprising the West with our new developments in offensive nuclear weapons about which we do not talk yet.”


I can post more provocative stuff in Russian language if you like

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/31/putin-threatens-nuclear-war-over-ukraine.html
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cthulhu

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2015, 05:05:08 PM »
of course there are russian soldiers and weapons in ukraine, because they've already been there. legally.

and i don't like being called a liar. just tried to state my point of view and to give it some solid grounds on which i base them.

to me this whole thing could not have happened without the maidan incident. and since this is not solved, you cannot put putin as an aggressor here. just follow the timetable of incidents.

but you seem to have an agenda and i leave you with that.

 
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Danny

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2015, 08:57:40 PM »
ctulhu, don't waste your time, now even a famous troll who used to poison this board with his shit-stirring but seemed to have fucked off in recent times has resurfaced... let him/her have the last word and (s)he'll disappear under his rock again

Pumpkin

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2015, 08:52:55 AM »
so, as i don't see a russian aggresion since the ww2, and i think it was a german aggresionn then anyway, the nato had maybe the right to exist as long as the warsaw pact was intact. since then the nato for me is nothing but an arm of the military industrial complex with the only justification of a fear of a russion aggression. you need enemys if you want your weapons to be sold. that is the context i see the nato in.

Russia’s post-war aggression is legendary: Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Iran, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Germany, Austria, Manchuria, Korea, Afghanistan, Japan etc… In some cases the outright response was to push the USSR’s borders further out at the expense of other nations – ironically forcing the pro-western part of what is now Ukraine into the USSR from Poland. The result: a little known anti-Soviet guerrilla war which lasted for over a decade. I’m not really sure why you would see some aggression originating from Germany at this time.

The Soviet regime, especially under Stalin, was hell bent on conquest.  They were determined to reclaim the entire former Russian Empire. This is what Putin greatly admires. NATO’s creation was in response to Soviet aggression and the fact it missed the boat on Hitler, because of the prevalent policy of appeasement which proved disastrous. The fact so many former Moscow ‘clients’ are happy under NATO’s umbrella speaks volumes. Not one of them would wish to re-join a Moscow alliance, would they?

Ganser’s work on NATO is interesting, I must admit that. However, I don’t think justice is done, saying that operations were conducted in a uniform manner throughout The West. In other words, the allegations of ‘terrorism’ cannot and should not be equally applied through all member states, some of which were clearly Soviet sympathisers at times and/or had significant pro-Soviet political parties. There was war: cells operated differently, depending on the circumstances.

If a war is on the cards against Russia, you will see the most determined fighters coming from eastern Europe. There is a very good explanation for that: they greatly value their newly won freedom and know the price is high to retain it when Putin has already shown Georgia and Ukraine what the consequences are of moving towards a pro-Western agenda.

Estonia now wants a permanent NATO force, despite the guarantees of the NATO-Russia Founding Act. Why? Because they don’t trust Putin and Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia live with the legacy of WWII. Sweden and Finland want closer ties and have increased co-operation. They never really considered the option during the Cold War. Russia is largely perceived as a grave threat to European peace – not NATO.  In response, NATO has so far declined to station troops on a permanent basis, or indeed provide missile defence batteries in The Baltic States. 

Putin didn’t need Maidan to interfere in Ukraine. The bottom line is that Russia has never really had any interest in an independent, especially pro-Western, Ukraine. The sooner it ceases to exist, the happier Putin, the nationalists, the royalists and the communists will be. It's also an important stage to recreating the empire.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 09:04:42 AM by Pumpkin »

cthulhu

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2015, 09:25:51 AM »
these are interesting opinions, but no one ever answered my question about the ukraine. as i stated, it is very important to regard the timetable of events to get to conclusions about who is acting and pushing and who is reacting to that actions.

what about my question regarding the stratfor "freudian" slip, admitting, that the main goal of us imperial politics, was to destroy and prohibit the commerce and trading and relationships between russia and germany. you can put europe instead of germany there.

there were several attempts from russia to get even closer and friendly with europe, for trading purposes. but this is seen as a danger to the us empire and they put a great effort in there to not let that happen. and it seems to be working. but it only seems.

i think the arguement of the states wanting to join nato is wrong in sight of the population. its always money and business and politicians who want such agreements, not the people. "in the name of the people" all of this is done. if you join nato you have to spent more on military equipment. that's the main point.

the fear of a russian agression is the product of the military industrial complex, their propaganda, who needs enemys to justify spending for weapons, even if the states have no money to keep their infrastructure intact, but have money for tanks and bombers.

we had several incidents of exposed propaganda in germany. and it was always to make putin and russia look bad and be evil and be the aggressors. i mean, these incidents were exposed by real jounalists and shown that they were just lies. propaganda. the main tv stations and mainstream press was and is involved.

you always refer to the very past, the soviet regime etc... this is legit. but then you have also to put in context the other side of the story.
who used nuklear weapons?
who started to explore nukes again after the agreement to not do this? calling them mini-nukes and bunkerbusters?
who is moving towards his called enemy?
who has the most miltary bases ind foreign countrys?
who spends the most money on military?

so who is the danger here?

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2015, 10:32:47 AM »
Some interesting points there cthulhu and Pumpkin.

"a little known anti-Soviet guerrilla war which lasted for over a decade". You are right there.  Western history books about the war seem to have omitted events in the East post 45. In Poland the vast resistance groups in the East of the country did not disband till the late 40's still loyal to the Polish government in exile in London, around 200,000 Poles killed in post-45 fighting. My own Great Uncle who fought with the Russians from Lenino to Berlin only to be killed by the Russian in 1947.

"you always refer to the very past, the soviet regime etc... this is legit. but then you have also to put in context the other side of the story"

that is true, but the past has made the situation of East-West tension that has never really ended even after the end of the cold war. -- cthulhu, you use history in your point, "who used nuclear weapons". Of coarse it was the States, but I truly believe this is down to the fact they got there first. The U.S., U.S.S.R, and the Nazi's all wanted the nuclear bomb. I feel sure if Hitler had it in 1942, he would have used it on Moscow, and if Stalin had it in 1944, he would have used it on Berlin.

"who has the most miltary bases ind foreign countrys?
who spends the most money on military? "

Being armed and prepared does not necessarily make you the aggressor, maybe it makes you the one who believes they have more of a threat to defend against. In 1944 the allies had many more times the military capability that the Nazi's, but who were the aggressors in that war ?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 05:57:49 PM by Shush »

cthulhu

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2015, 11:02:48 AM »
i think what i'm trying to express is this:

if you are really interested in peace. if you really want to solve problems without just murder your opposition, you just have to be able to put yourselve in the opponents position and point of view.
so even if you don't have aggressive actions in mind, you have to acknowledge that your actions could be seen and felt like that by the opposition.

russia has the right to feel threatened by the recent evolving of history. it is the nato, which came closer to its borders. it doesn't matter if the countrys joined on their free will. it just matters that there was a treaty, in which the nato just promised not to do that and did it. this doesn't produce trust.

so if you have an opponent who feels threatened, but would not have to, you should start giving him something, for the sake of both sides, to gain trust. but if you see the opponents actions distached from your own actions and then call him aggressor, you won't ever solve a problem.

i really think the nato, displayed by the recent statements of their changing leaders, rasmussen for example, has no ability to have some self criticism and self judgement.

i demand these abilitys in every leader. but if you have an army, if you are the army, you just need and want to fight, that's your job.

and why should the nato states feel threatened anyway? just watch this graphic:
(how do i change the size or how can i upload it from my pc?)



ever tried. ever failed. no matter.
try again. fail again. fail better.
(samuel beckett)