Jeremy Corbyn

[Pol]

On the issue of moving to make your vote count. What if you voted ukip as over 12% of people did or the greens as 4% did . Add those votes together and 1 in every 6 people voted for those parties over 16% of the electorate and what did they get 1 seat for ukip surely this can't be right

[ldopas]

On the issue of moving to make your vote count. What if you voted ukip as over 12% of people did or the greens as 4% did . Add those votes together and 1 in every 6 people voted for those parties over 16% of the electorate and what did they get 1 seat for ukip surely this can't be right

Well I can't disagree with you at all there, even from my (slight I think) right of centre position. You are right it doesn't make any sense really.

But what we do about it is the real debate I guess. It is a minefield. We could add regions into it as well, Wales, England and Scotland all vote differently. I hear left leaning people say they would move to Scotland because England would vote Tory, and they do. We really cannot have our cake and eat it in reality. Perhaps that is the problem with people these days, we cannot accept that compromise is always required.

[Pol]

It would definitely have to be regional, if it did ever happen, my suggestion Scotland, Wales and northern Ireland separate for obvious reasons, England maybe up to 5 or 6 different regions , putting a very rough generalization on it I would say that London is fairly spilt, the rest of the south mainly tory , the midlands can go either way and the north labour
Anyway who the fck I'm I to say
Oh one more point, I know people won't care that ukip only got 1 seat with 12% of the vote, but next time or time after it could be a new party say a labour party split - democratic socialists maybe that the same thing happens to .
Even with just 4% of the vote the greens would have over 20 seats in parliament giving them a decent voice and a chance to grow stronger

[Danny]

Once again I'm in complete agreement with Pol. I personally hate UKIP as much as I hate the tories, but you can't be democratic only when it suits you, like certain elements seem to be; if people voted for them they need to be represented in parliament. And as you said, the greens would have 20-odd seats instead of 1 which would be enough to cause problems to the big parties in some cases.

And by the way weak governments are good in my book, because it means they generally can't enforce the worst of their policies cos everyone else gangs up against them and votes them down.

[Pol]

I think history might well show that the libs Dems were good for the country keeping the Tories on the lease to a certain extent. Ok they have copped the blame in the end especially with the uni fees. Just look how much more aggressive and arrogant the Tories have become since they got full power though

[Anna Woman von NRW]

The PR issue is unfortunately not that much of an issue at the moment though is it? I don't see any real appetite for revisiting that debate. The risible referendum the other year was it - even though the option put forward was unlikely to fly with the electorate - most people just ain't that bothered even if it would mean a far more representative parliament. And yes that does include UKIP because much as I may dislike their views there is a sizeable part of the electorate that is all but unrepresented, likewise the Green Party.

I think a similar sense of lack of representation is what gave Corbyn his win. An expression of "give us something else" as opposed to full on endorsement of his politics. He doesn't come from inside the usual political establishment where it's impossible to spot the difference on all sides.

Whether or not this is anything more than a brief moment remains to be seen, personally I'm pessimistic about him lasting more than a year or two. I can't see the party bigwigs letting him actually lead them into a general election. But if a very centrist labour was rejected at the last election I fail to see how being even more tory lite is much of a plan. Can you really nick enough tory voters to win?

But maybe there's a wider message to both labour and tory here. They both assume a natural right to "be in charge"  and that only they know what to do and how to do it. Maybe that used to work when there was connections between "them and us" but that doesn't seem to be true any more and there is a widening disconnect between the world of politicians and the world the rest of us live in. Populist movements are forming in many countries from all parts of the political spectrum. Perhaps this is the first sniff in the breeze of somthing stirring here? Mind you, that don't sound very much like the English does it 

[Pumpkin]

And by the way weak governments are good in my book...

That's not a very leftist idea at all. How can a far left government rule without being strong, especially if they are going to nationalise and keep the capitalists in check? I don’t think Corbyn/McDonnell, the unions or the far left would really share your view on that.

Whether or not this is anything more than a brief moment remains to be seen, personally I'm pessimistic about him lasting more than a year or two. I can't see the party bigwigs letting him actually lead them into a general election. But if a very centrist labour was rejected at the last election I fail to see how being even more tory lite is much of a plan. Can you really nick enough tory voters to win?

I don't think it's really down to the party bigwigs. Smith and Blair had a huge job to persuade Labour to become more centrist, but they succeeded and the far left, including Corbyn, was all but marginalised. A career politician, Corbyn stayed on. A career chancer and egoist, Galloway sought different pastures. As much as the Labour far left might have praised Galloway, few followed in his footsteps. This is an important point: Corbyn's approach worked better from within.

This drift to the centre for Labour continued simply because it produced electoral success and this was further accomplished by picking up the votes of more centrist, disgruntled Conservative supporters who could see that by '97 Major had lost his touch and that Hague subsequently wasn't cut out for the job or even the subsequent jobs that followed - if one is to be painfully honest. A long list of poor to inefficient Conservative candidates, especially the ever irritating IDS (who should have and could still be re-branded as IBS) followed and posed little threat to the New Labour juggernaut until it also had run its course and left a void in the political scene. Who capitalises on the discontent with Labour? Certainly not the Greens.

The thing is that Cameron isn't wildly popular in the various Conservative circles, so there is certainly disgruntled Conservative voters looking for something more robust. (Cameron stays if Labour doesn't mount much of a threat.) Now the real question is will that be UKIP or a moderate, centrist Labour party that benefits from those less than enthusiastic with Cameron's running of the Conservatives and the country?

If Corbyn doesn't moderate his views on certain things, Labour loses a large percentage of the disgruntled Conservative vote. They will need to maximise that section of the electorate if they are ever to win the next election.

[JohnnyM]

If Corbyn doesn't moderate his views on certain things, Labour loses a large percentage of the disgruntled Conservative vote. They will need to maximise that section of the electorate if they are ever to win the next election.

So the media consensus would have you believe - but what about all the seats the "red tories" lost in Scotland in no small part due to their tory-lite ways?

BTW Corbyn was a pretty middle of the road Labour MP in the 80s/90s - its the rightwing shift in English politics that has had him portrayed (wrongly) as a raving marxist

[Pol]

Personally I think that labour lost their seats in Scotland for a few different reasons
A backlash against them siding with the Tories in the independence vote
There leadership and party in Scotland being in disarray
Snp having the policies that appealed more to Scottish voters
People being pissed off with them doing fck all for them when they had the chance

[Pumpkin]

If Corbyn doesn't moderate his views on certain things, Labour loses a large percentage of the disgruntled Conservative vote. They will need to maximise that section of the electorate if they are ever to win the next election.

So the media consensus would have you believe - but what about all the seats the "red tories" lost in Scotland in no small part due to their tory-lite ways?

BTW Corbyn was a pretty middle of the road Labour MP in the 80s/90s - its the rightwing shift in English politics that has had him portrayed (wrongly) as a raving marxist

It doesn't really have much to do with the media in this regard. Pol has already highlighted some reasons for Labour's defeat in Scotland. The Conservatives aren't going to be able to capitalise on discontented Labour supporters in Scotland, but the SNP certainly can. The same logic applies to Scotland: the Conservatives aren't going to win much anywhere in Scotland unless they can provide a wider appeal to discontented Labour and SNP supporters.

The fact is that as far back as Kinnock and Smith the penny dropped when it came to why Labour were so isolated and, more or less, unelectable in the 80s. It was also obvious that they were not able to build on earlier electoral success or draw significant numbers of new party members. Times changed and Labour was stuck in the past and engulfed in a virtual civil war. Kinnock spent much of his time sorting out the party and Smith made significant efforts to modernise it.

Corbyn actually wasn't a middle of the road MP back in the day and that's much of the consensus from within Labour itself. Meeting Gerry Adams and sitting down with Sinn Fein/IRA in 1984 only weeks after the Brighton Hotel Bombing wasn't something of which Kinnock approved. If I remember correctly, he was staunchly against it and didn't want the party associated with Corbyn's 'initiative'. Kinnock recently refused to back Corbyn's attempt to lead the party and many of the reasons were down to Corbyn's politics and his behaviour in the 80s. Did Labour under Michael Foot support the Conservatives' actions in The Falklands? Where was Corbyn on this issue? The reason why the SDP was created and why the left of centre vote was split back in the early 80s was Labour's attitude to what is now the current EU. Where was Corbyn on this issue?

He was on the fringes of the Labour Party back in the 80s and, by all accounts from the currents MPs, he is on the fringes of it now. This is something you don't expect in a party leader, but most of the Conservative leaders during the New Labour era were likewise. It doesn't bode well for electoral success unless the governing party implodes. There's not a single MP who doesn't realise this.

Does Corbyn see himself as a Marxist, or is it a media fabrication?

[Pumpkin]

So...why the U-turn on EU membership?

[Adrian]

Great bloke. Met him in London a few weeks back at a book signing. Very humble.  Everything you wouldn't expect  from a politician.