EU Referendum

[JS]

The mention of TTIP earlier is a very good point. It is in many ways more of a threat to democracy than the EU because it potentially cedes all control of all public services not to an elected government or to an association of elected governments but to corporate/financial institutions. And who has been gunning hardest for this in EU? The UK and both wings of the Tory party. And when the Leave campaign leaders talk in flowery tones about separate trade deals between the UK and the US, let's remember that this is exactly what they have in mind; it could even be agreed (with great fanfare) within a couple of years and you can bet there will be no Referendum on it.

There is no general election planned for after the Referendum and so if the Leave side wins, we will have no say in what kind of 'Leave' it's going to be. So whoever wins it's going to be a Tory vision, protection of wealth and privilege and the continued flow of public funds into private hands. So much for the great democratisation. JS

[Semmelnknödöln]

Thanks, NMA, for a most eloquent and balanced summary of the situation... I had composed a lengthy message for this thread earlier today but that one got lost in BT's continuously failing broadband infrastructure.

I have to echo how disheartening, and nasty the debate has become... and I wholeheartedly agree that it's mostly down to this simplistic tunnel vision on net pay, control (what bollocks that entire topic is...) and immigration driven by a rampant, populist, right-wing agenda. It was to be expected and one can blame Cameron for not realising this before he thought of this referendum. The same happens elsewhere (e.g. in Switzerland), popular votes foster populism. That is not to say that there are reasons for debate about the value and implementation of the EU from all angles, but Brexit is not about this (leaving has only one certainty: uncertainty... is this desirable?). Can't help myself seeing this as nothing but a last attempt by a dwindling empire to regain old glory - a rather emotional affair and dangerous game given that the decision will be dumped onto the future generation of this country.

It seems obvious that a possible Brexit will not lead to any benefits for those affected most by inequality (Billy Bragg: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/english-working-class-victims-brexit-vote-false-patriotism ), rather much the opposite given the political swing to the right this will cause... a prime minister Boris is a nightmare in my book, and I don't see how years of insecurity, nasty discussions with EU states on common treaties will benefit the people. Inequality in the UK is not a consequence of EU politics. It is plainly wrong how Pumpkin (as usual) attempts to tweak his agenda into others' words ("many of Brexit’s arguments on a right-wing agenda") - no matter what arguments were there in the first place, if they have been hijacked and will further be abused by those in future power after Brexit, it will have little to do with "important wider arguments". Having said that, I still do not to see a convincing realistic, sensible argument for what Brexit will *actually* deliver and improve... and that is not to say I defend the EU.

If one is skeptical of something, running away fixes it? If Germany is powerful now, how do you expect it to be after Brexit, with Frankfurt becoming the defacto financial center of Europe and the UK having zero say inside the EU? I cannot stand Schaeuble's austerity and snide stabs at other countries, but this will not disintegrate by one member state running away. TTIP is scandalous, but what will Brexit do against it? You truly believe Johnson wouldn't jump into getting exactly the same kind of deal with the US? The only point would be that the US will not be very interested in rushing into a deal with an insignificant country such as the UK (compared to the scale of Europe, China etc). But yes, Brexit will propel Germany to a huge increase in power and influence, politically and economically. Equally, security and peace only work via international cooperation, building higher walls has the opposite effect. UK science/technology/education (that's my sector) will take a massive hit and probably throw the UK way behind: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2015/12/05/debunking-the-myths-about-british-science-after-an-eu-exit . That's not scaremongering, but facts.

Neoliberal, undemocratic, bureaucratic? I can immediately think of a number of countries including the UK for which these descriptors are spot-on, e.g. the very vote today excluding millions of citizens, and Thatcher probably being the one to blame for introducing this neoliberal fallacy to Europe in the first place. EU political culture is only a reflection of national politics, it is not a country. Is this all a reason to run away from it? I'm all for a fundamental change of the system as this neoliberal syndrome is not sustainable. But not via something so ill-posed and poisoned as Brexit. Pumpkin, you couldn't be more wrong in blindly assuming that out means you can fix it. Where has this ever worked? I trust the EU has followed this debate with open ears, and the most productive course of action would be to work on issues together. You forfeit the opportunity by running away - the EU will not run after the UK should it decide to sail away in isolation.

I'm quite surprised as to how many board members on here subscribe to these nationalist emotions (sorry, that's what such a vote is about), and it is shocking for a European living in the UK how racist and xenophobic large fractions of society actually are (sadly of course, this happens all over the place). Being a German citizen, I am constantly reminded of the early 1930s these days. We're in this together on this most blood-thirsty continent...  to try and avoid escalation at all cost. Brexit will only foster this, and that is a core reason why I cannot see "leave" as a viable option whatsoever, and believe it's a hugely dangerous path to take. It's not a vote of good against bad, it's about the less worse.

I found this summary of the key concerns quite accessible:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-five-questions-to-answer-before-you-vote?CMP=fb_gu

And here's how this whole saga feels:
http://newsthump.com/2016/06/20/majority-of-lemmings-in-favour-of-jumping-off-cliff/

[Anna Woman von NRW]

I dropped out of this thread a while back when (in common with the wider debate in the real world) the temperature started rising but now here we are on the only day that actually matters.

At the start I was leaning towards remain and now I'm pretty convinced it's the best option for the UK.

The link that Semmelnknodoln gave us to the summary of key concerns is very good.

If you are going to vote leave please just take a moment to calmly consider whether it is really the EU which is responsible for the things that are wrong and if you are prepared to accept what an exit vote will bring in the future.

BTW - postal vote was Remain

[Pumpkin]

The mention of TTIP earlier is a very good point. It is in many ways more of a threat to democracy than the EU because it potentially cedes all control of all public services not to an elected government or to an association of elected governments but to corporate/financial institutions. And who has been gunning hardest for this in EU? The UK and both wings of the Tory party. And when the Leave campaign leaders talk in flowery tones about separate trade deals between the UK and the US, let's remember that this is exactly what they have in mind; it could even be agreed (with great fanfare) within a couple of years and you can bet there will be no Referendum on it.

There is no general election planned for after the Referendum and so if the Leave side wins, we will have no say in what kind of 'Leave' it's going to be. So whoever wins it's going to be a Tory vision, protection of wealth and privilege and the continued flow of public funds into private hands. So much for the great democratisation. JS

TTIP is an incredibly important point. Labour’s silence on the issue is deafening, and UKIP is the only UK party opposed to it in the European Parliament from what I can see – dubious reasons acknowledged. I am amazed there is not more opposition in the UK and EU. The European Parliament voted 436 to 231 to accept TTIP, and the UK would do likewise – given the widespread absence across the political spectrum of those against it.

You’re absolutely right: there will be no referendum on TTIP and ISDS (the Investor State Dispute Settlement mentioned earlier). However, both desperately need to be openly debated in public across all the member states. There needs to be serious consideration of what all this implies and what its effects will be. Again, no real discussion – even the negotiations are conducted in secret. 

If “Remain” wins, then Cameron will celebrate his second referendum victory and portray himself as the master navigator who twice steered away the threat of the dissolution of the UK – either in the form of Scottish independence or withdrawal from the EU. He will crank his own pedestal higher.

Should he lose, the Tories seek his replacement and a general election is likely called. Corbyn will also have to reconsider his position – win or lose. He was elected, partly because of the rising dissent from traditional Labour supporters, but he really has failed to deliver and further alienated many Brexit supporters in the party who thought he was a sure bet to lead a Brexit campaign.

[c]

There is no general election planned for after the Referendum and so if the Leave side wins, we will have no say in what kind of 'Leave' it's going to be. So whoever wins it's going to be a Tory vision, protection of wealth and privilege and the continued flow of public funds into private hands. So much for the great democratisation. JS

to be fair we did have a general election in 2015 which the Tories won. So we as a country voted for a Tory vision. And in their manifesto was a promise of an In-Out Referendum, within the life of the current parliament, so the country's already voted for that vision.

Having said that the same could be said for the Scottish Referendum. That became very much an independent Scotland = the SNP's vision for Scotland. I felt that the pro-Independence party could have generated a greater appeal had they emphasised that independence meant their own choice over all things - whether that was the SNP's vision, Scottish Labour's vision, or a revived Scottish Tory party. But that's looking from the outside in.

I guess the Leave party have made a good deal of noise about taking choice back into our own hands. And if the Leave campaign do win, then they will have 4 years to the next election when if the general population wants it they can kick them out. The same for Remain.

And for those who want a bit of good news, the Mirror referenced a poll carried out upto midnight last night that showed a 55% remain vote.

[Pumpkin]

@ Semmelnknödöln

The argument for Brexit has been increasingly associated with right-wing populism, yet it fails to take into consideration long-standing Euro-scepticism on the left – where it has always been stronger.

There is a certain UK MP who supposedly claims that only the UK should decide "how many immigrants we have, who we deport, what the levels of taxation are and what our foreign policy should be". It isn’t Nigel Farage either. Immigration is a key issue, and there are very large rumblings in Labour about the effects of ‘cheap, mobile labour’ which doesn’t sit well with many UK workers. UKIP have exploited it, simply because Labour doesn’t know how to handle it in public. In private, it’s a different matter.

Regardless, the issue of Euro-scepticism has long been rampant across the political divide here for different reasons. Brexit is clearly not about left and right.

I am not ‘blindly assuming’ anything. I am not interested in being a member of it in its current form. I’ve already made my case for that. I think the best direction is to leave and it is not a decision to run away which constitutes different implications altogether.

The Americans had the same idea about reform not being open to negotiation in 1776, and they hardly collapsed as a nascent nation after leaving the might of the British Empire against all odds. In fact, the opposite happened. The decision made then caused the UK to re-examine its foreign policies altogether, or risk losing further colonies.

It’s debateable whether the EU would see one member state’s decision to leave as a call for further consideration of reform, but it is certainly bound to galvanise other movements which are sceptical of the EU. For example, would Syriza and others not see Brexit as a boost for themselves? As justification that another member state opposes EU directives? Anti-EU parties are gaining momentum everywhere. This decision could make or break them.

[Pol]

Well I've made my mark  ( wee wax crayon n awe that) (ref Tommy Sheridan) . I'm all for free trade and the free movement of the right workers. What I'm against is regulations made by non elected officials. Personally I thought that the EU was ok if flawed until the tpd came along, totally biased I know. As a employee I want good rights but I want small businesses to be able to employ people as well, don't forget they make up 85% of the employment market.
Anyway I think remain will win.

[Bunny]

First time ive been to the polling station and theres queues. Right hive of activity. Well if nothing people feel strongly. I wonder if this will be a bigger turn out than the Election!?

[Wessexy Witch]

First time ive been to the polling station and theres queues. Right hive of activity. Well if nothing people feel strongly. I wonder if this will be a bigger turn out than the Election!?

I'm thinking this to.
 

[Bunny]

Well if it is the case, its probably cos folks actually beleive they can change something!

[Master Ray]

The result is supposed to announced from Manchester at 7am tomorrow.

Sorry to be a depressive, untrusting and possibly paranoid fool, but who else suspects that if it doesn't go quite the way Cameron and his pals want, there might be some kind of 'technical problem with the results'... 

It wouldn't be the first time it happened in politics.

[MARKXE]

I voted out and regardless what you voted I hope you did it for what you believe to be right.

One thing that has really pissed me off me is the constant slandering of Brexit voters to some how have some right wing agenda.
I can assure anyone that I have absolutely no problem with Immigration or Refugees and last year invited the local German Refugee housing woman to my house with a couple of newly arrived Syrians to sort them with curtains, crockery and other such household stuff so please do not tar me with the baldy headed knuckle dragging fraternity.

For me the EU referendum was about getting away from the corrupt unelected and unaccountable monster that Brusssels has become nothing more and nothing less.
Its a train crash waiting to happen and we had the chance to get off.

Our politicians are no angels but at least we can vote them out every few years if we choose to.


What ever the outcome the world will keep turning and we will still find excuses for war. There is no profit in peace.


Straight on for the days ahead.
Whatever you voted for good luck and cheers.

[Master Ray]

Vote cast.  Completely at peace with my decision, regardless of end result.  Accepting of the future.  Immensely glad that the utter fooktwattery of the whole thing will finally be over.

 

[Sheena]

Agreed Ray, me too.

[Pol]

Its not over yet, we need to put up with that smug bastard Cameron gloating for several months now, I wonder if the queen will be purring this time. At least Scotland got some extra powers lol