The official NMA board
General Category => New Model Army => Topic started by: Johnz on October 11, 2013, 11:15:39 AM
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Seeing Vengeance pop up in a recent setlist made me think about this. Don't get me wrong, I love the song but I must admit that 29 years on from first hearing it, my attitude has changed and I just can't sing 'I believe in vengeance' out loud anymore and actually believe it. It's funny because it's one of the songs that first got me into them.
I remember JS a few years ago saying something to the effect of there being enough vengeance out there which is why he felt no need to play it anymore and I thought the same.
Now this is not about whether the band should play it or not but about how people personally relate to its sentiment. I'm not so sure anymore which is why I'm interested to hear what others think.
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I think it's more about the perspective from which you view the song. Sure, taken straight-up, it's pretty aggressive (and I believe, rightly so)...
But I still love it. I feel like people who do bad things deserve bad things, and while the song may express that in a blunt manner, the sentiment is a good one.
What goes around, comes around. Not that I'm an active seeker of vengeance, but I can't say I complain when bad things happen to those who deserve them ;D
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I've always found the lyrics of this song slightly uncomfortable because they paint the world in a very black and white way (and yes I know the Cause), and paint justice in what you might describe as an "Old Testament" way - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, without any chance of redemption / rehabilitation/ second chance/ two sides of a story/ or the chance that the accuser is simply mistaken about the identity of the accused (ref the french postman burned to death in Mauritius the other day, having been accused of a dreadful crime and then killed out of hand).
But that hasn't stopped me loving the song for a long time. I like its power, I like the challenge the lyrics provide, and when was I teenager, it shocked my parents that I was playing a song with the word "bastards" in it (if they ever used the word, it meant illegitimate child only and they pronounced it with a short a sound even though we lived in Kent)
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I've always found the lyrics of this song slightly uncomfortable because they paint the world in a very black and white way (and yes I know the Cause), and paint justice in what you might describe as an "Old Testament" way - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, without any chance of redemption / rehabilitation/ second chance/ two sides of a story/ or the chance that the accuser is simply mistaken about the identity of the accused (ref the french postman burned to death in Mauritius the other day, having been accused of a dreadful crime and then killed out of hand).
I think that just about sums up my feelings. Although I do feel as we get older we seem more able to stop and think rather than just blindly react to something.
Still a great song.
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There's an old saying 'When you seek vengeance, dig two graves.' It probably sums it up. If you believe in vengeance and they believe in vengeance, where does it end. Having said that, it's a damn fine song.
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I remember JS a few years ago saying something to the effect of there being enough vengeance out there which is why he felt no need to play it anymore and I thought the same.
yestarday it was someone's request, dedicated to that person by Justin, but dont remember his/her name
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I posted something a while back about how I was put in hospital a couple of years ago in a random street attack from someone I'd never met... I was repeatedly punched in the face, kneed in the balls, had the base of my spine repeatedly kicked, whilst all the time the bastard was screaming 'I'M GOING TO KILL YOU, YOU ****' for, again, no reason whatsoever, I'd never seen him before... I was wearing a light-coloured jumper and had to throw it away because it had so much blood on it...
The police found him and his punishment?... a 'caution' (which, as we all know, means f-all, it's the equivalent of waving your finger in someones face, you can have thirty of forty of them without a single penny leaving your pocket, yeah, but if your dog shits on the pavement,you'll be paying out...)
And why was he given this sad finger-waving excuse for punishment? Because, and I quote exactly, 'he said he was sorry...'
:o
That ain't good enough. There's no such this as karma. Bastards who hurt people will go on to hurt again because they're allowed to get away with it. It's all they know. That incident has changed me from someone who believed in the inherant decency of people to someone who suspects every stranger.
My neighbourhood (where I've lived for fifteen years) is turning to shit around me and it breaks my heart. It makes me so angry.
Sorry, I usually try and post light-hearted messages, but if you ask my opinion on this subject...
I believe in justice. I believe in vengeance. I believe in getting the bastard.
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Fact of the matter is we have all, at some point, felt the deisre to bluntly deliver retribution. Its a human instinct. NMA captured that sentiment perfectly with youthful exuberunce. A naive song? violent intent? too basic? Not enough context? Maybe.
Nonetheless it a magnificent song, a stomping tune and still has its place in a NMA set, albeit for 3 mins!! JS today would be far more poetic in his lyrics which shows how well he has developed as a lyricist, but vengeance as a song captures a moment perfectly.........
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Personally, I can honestly say it still rings true. I can gladly scream along ad infinitum with it....... It's a universal theme of retribution, you can aly it to any cause just abouts......
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Ray, This happened years ago when I was younger and dumber. I was waiting for a taxi at about 2 in the morning in a long queue. A bloke towards the front of the queue started punching his girlfriend and I mean punching her. Her face was bleeding and it all happened in a few seconds. No one did anything, so I grabbed him and pulled him backwards off her. He went absolutely mad. I could not fight him, he just punched and kicked me down the street. I was bleeding, black eyed and couldn't properly walk. There were maybe 30 people in that queue. No one helped her or me. The worst thing was a taxi turned up and he muscled into it and she got in after him. There's that thing on telly where you throw one punch and knock someone out. It wasn't like that at all.
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The lyrics do deal with anger at some pretty big moral issues - Protection of Nazi war criminals by bribed governments, dealers selling smack outside schools. Its not like advocacy for beating up a guy who stops for a drunken wee in a shop doorway at 2am or something ;)
Thematicaly, its revisited in 'The Hunt', and I bet nobody can resist singing that so hard that your heart plops out of your nose!
Personaly, I have punched plenty, and forgiven plenty over the years. Some I punched I now wish I hadn't, and some i forgave I now wish I had punched. But most I feel I got just right 8)
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I've always found the lyrics of this song slightly uncomfortable because they paint the world in a very black and white way (and yes I know the Cause), and paint justice in what you might describe as an "Old Testament" way - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, without any chance of redemption / rehabilitation/ second chance/ two sides of a story/ or the chance that the accuser is simply mistaken about the identity of the accused (ref the french postman burned to death in Mauritius the other day, having been accused of a dreadful crime and then killed out of hand).
But that hasn't stopped me loving the song for a long time.
Thanks for the replies.
Some interesting views and stories. I think the above sums up the way I feel about it. I understand that the song is intended as a gut reaction and tackles some pretty despicable issue and it does that well. Maybe it's just the word believe that I have issues with because while I certainly know the urge for vengeance it is just not something I believe in as a means of settling conflict anymore.
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I remember posting about the same subject some years ago and being blasted by some members of the "Family". I said something to the effect that I didn't agree with Justin's then introduction to the song,"The only good Fascist is a dead Fascist", because in saying so you are on the same level as the Fascists themselves. Death or in this case the implied death penalty can never be the answer. Believe me, as a teacher of History and Ethics I know what I'm talking about.
To me there's no problem with the song itself as it shows the perspective of an extreme character - as indeed does The Hunt as someone pointed out - and should not be mistaken as being the songwriter's opinion.
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is justice vengeance? is vengeance justice? or, is it vigilante justice he is talking about?
don't get me wrong i do like the song, but i know people who know the band only slightly and think this is how the singer feels because he is the one singing it:-
"To me there's no problem with the song itself as it shows the perspective of an extreme character - as indeed does The Hunt as someone pointed out - and should not be mistaken as being the songwriter's opinion."
and i have heard him say at gigs he does belive in vengeance, which is backed up by the old intro
""The only good Fascist is a dead Fascist", because in saying so you are on the same level as the Fascists themselves."
again, don't get me wrong i do like the song, but for me there are other lyrics which i find it harder to understand
today is a good day - i have said this before but, i still can't understand how someone can say that was a good day, when all the financial system went tits up and we the tax payer had to bail out the banks and the age of austerity began, i also wonder how many NMA fans sat there thinking that, or did they begin to think it was a good day after the song was released? and yes i have heard justins comments and arguements when i have previously mentioned it but still can't agree
falklands - "They think that they died for you and me, Oh God, what a farce, what a farce"
"They think they fought for peace and freedom Poor boys, what a farce, what a farce"
well, no, i think they died for the peace & freedom of the falkland islanders, who are eternally gratefull for that.
again, don't get me wrong, i do think it is absolutely sh*t that in this so called modern world that we sometimes have to go to war & i am eternally gratefull that i have not experienced it, but, still don't get those lyrics
BRING ON THE FLAK!
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I remember reading a JS interview where he says he wrote Vengeance after watching a Klaus Barbie documentary. So I think it's pretty much what he felt at the time and not someone else's story.
I personally don't take offence to the TIAGD lyrics even though, like many, I am still suffering the economical burden of its aftermath. To me, the 'good' thing in the song is that the crash revealed the shortcomings of capitalism to everyone and not the fact that millions lost everything. Admittedly, it is a bit 'there you have it/told you so' but it's also very true.
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Personally I do believe in vengeance and when the time comes to deal with it I will.
The reason I'm saying this because of something that happened to me at a scooter rally in July 2012
I manage a Lambretta scooter racing team in my spare time and we've been going 3 years.
When we started we had a young lad racing for us and in the first year he did okay but went downhill rapidly in the second year,he was given plenty of warnings and chances but young lads being young lads he though he knew better,so i got the team together and told him that he one more chance to get his act together and sort himself out as he was becoming a danger to himself and other riders on the track.
His last opportunity came and nothing changed so i told him that it was over and that was it.
fast forward a month or so and I'm at a national scooter rally in Lincoln and wake up on the Sunday morning to find my Lambretta vandalised, every panel sctratched and gouged.
Over 4000 people there and a couple of thousand scooters and mine was the only one touched.
He was there along with his club and family,I have no proof....yet but it looks as though his father and friend are the main culprit,there's a lot of circumstantial evidence but nothing concrete.
I had to get the scooter reprayed so got this on it
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/WRCscootlyrics.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/WRCscootlyrics.jpg.html)
This is what happened to it!!!!
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism10.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism10.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism9.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism9.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism6.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism6.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism7.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism7.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism5.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism5.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism3.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism3.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism1.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism1.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism2.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism2.jpg.html)
It may seem trivial to you but I've been into the scooter scene since 1984 and this thing shouldn't happen for whatever reason.
Friends on the scene and also people I've never met were so disgusted with this they set up a donations page to help me get the scooter resprayed etc and I received over £3500 in 2 weeks, which restored my faith in the human race.
So do I believe in vengeance?
yes I do
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Personally I would have to say I have never been comfortable with the lyrics of Vengeance ever since I first head it in the 1980s. Do not have a problem with vengeance or the seeking of justice, but I think the Holocaust is not suitable material for what is basically a pop song. A very good song, important musically to many people, but still just a song.
Maybe I am completely wrong on this, and perhaps music should be used as a platform for people to express their feelings on such issues, having few other outlets for such thoughts.
I would be curious to know how the song would, or has been received in Israel. Would it be taken as offensive or distrust , or would it become a clarion call for justice, a tribute to the work of Mossad and the work of Simon Wiesenthal ?
Either way, me personally I never felt comfortable with the lyrics of the first paragraph. Its just too important for song lyrics.
On the other hand, the second paragraph on drug dealers, wonderfully followed up in the Hunt, I like very much. The idea of the man on the street dealing with what the Police do not, in their own community does sit well with me.
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I can't agree with "the subject being too important for song lyrics", I can't at all..........
The Free Nelson Mandela song, trite as is may be, still helped in some small way scream for attention against apartheid. Pride by U2? God help us all, even BAND AID......... (sorry, but though I hate the song, it's benefits are undeniable)......
I don't think any subject should be considered "too important", protest songs are EXACTLY the point of punk, hardcore lyrics, the beat poets of the sixties had the same agenda, spirituals from the Mississippi Delta helped keep people sane while working unforgiving hours in horrendous conditions. From there you get the blues, then eventually here we are.........
Vengeance is as valid now as ever, to me anyways...... Be a nazi, a rapist, a drug dealer preying on weak minded impressionable youths, whatever........ If the law isn't helping what then????????? The song isn't validating the statement either, it's not saying YOU MUST FOLLOW ME AND TAKE UP ARMS, it's saying "WELL ME, I believe in Vengeance" ...... If it said "WE BELIEVE..." and in 84 Mr S carted have the Queens Hall punters off into Buttershaw to kick doors in, then maybe the point would be more valid. Not the case tho....
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All valid points Stoney, and I can't disagree with what you have said. Completely agree the power and influence songs can have such as the Mandela song and Band Aid can not be over stated. I was reflecting on how that song made ME feel. I was not offended by the song at all at that time, just uncomfortable. Having a Polish back ground, I used to talk to many old lads who experienced the horrors first hand. It just did not feel right to me listening to references to it in a song.
Again, must entherise, uncomfortable, not offended. If you have or do chose to write songs on the subject, then that is your place to express your feelings, and that is all for the good.
As such, and again purely for me personally I kind of resent the song Vengeance , as at first, it put me off NMA. It was due to the insistence of a good friend of mine that I looked further into the band because he knew I would like them based on what else I was listening to at the time. --- and he was dead right . :)
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God help us all, even BAND AID......... (sorry, but though I hate the song, it's benefits are undeniable)......
It definitely helped the 80s record industry - though its actual benefits for Africa are less clear..
Anyway.. back on topic.. there's been quite a few posts from people who (understandably) felt the need for revenge - any experiences of actual revenge (and not just trashing an ex's record collection) - did violent retribution feel good and justified - or just empty & pointless?
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Ironontour, what happened to your bike is really disgusting.
Its just too bad. Hours of someone's skilled dedication to do, then seconds for some numpty to ruin.
In my mind, part of the punishment for the **** that did it, make him go on a coarse learning how to do such artwork for a while. When he has finally leant something and do the best piece of work he can, make him drag a Stanley knife across it.
Like what you said about your fellow enthusiasts clubbing together to get it sorted out. Always seems to be the case that bad things can bring out the best in good people.
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I posted something a while back about how I was put in hospital a couple of years ago in a random street attack from someone I'd never met... I was repeatedly punched in the face, kneed in the balls, had the base of my spine repeatedly kicked, whilst all the time the bastard was screaming 'I'M GOING TO KILL YOU, YOU ****' for, again, no reason whatsoever, I'd never seen him before... I was wearing a light-coloured jumper and had to throw it away because it had so much blood on it...
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I believe in justice. I believe in vengeance. I believe in getting the bastard.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that, Master Ray.
That's just... awful. I can't believe he got away with it. Makes me feel sick.
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Personally I do believe in vengeance and when the time comes to deal with it I will.
The reason I'm saying this because of something that happened to me at a scooter rally in July 2012
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It may seem trivial to you but I've been into the scooter scene since 1984 and this thing shouldn't happen for whatever reason.
Friends on the scene and also people I've never met were so disgusted with this they set up a donations page to help me get the scooter resprayed etc and I received over £3500 in 2 weeks, which restored my faith in the human race.
So do I believe in vengeance?
yes I do
Not trivial in the slightest. You have every right to be damn well p*ssed off. Sorry that it happened at all, and I hope they get the b*stards!!!
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It's interesting to see this topic still being raised 31 years after the song was written and I'm happy to see it discussed here. For my own part, there have been many moments in my life when I have wondered about it. It doesn't sit easily with how I see myself or how I see life in general. Mostly I believe in forgiveness. However it was written for genuine reasons (after seeing a documentary about Klaus Barbie) in a moment of pure anger. It's a primal reaction, not a philosophy, though I do believe that some kind of justice has to be seen to be done for society to function. 'The Hunt' and, perhaps even more, 'My People Right or Wrong', also express gut reactions that I don't necessarily agree with in my clearer moments but that doesn't make them invalid - often I write from other people's points of view anyway. I've never seen song-writing as expressions of 'philosophy'. Songs should be about emotions and emotions are contradictory. We all like both love and hate songs. 'Vengeance' has been a millstone around the necks of the band from the very beginning; it meant that we couldn't be trusted by the mainstream because they didn't quite know what we were going to say or do next - and still don't. But in that one sense it made us free. We never acknowledged its 'popularity' or let it become a signature song and we stopped playing it live for many years but sometimes it's played because of a special moment or just because it is a four minute blast entirely true to itself.
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Sometimes its just good to vent. Its important that when fucked up shit happens in the world, it makes us at least angry enough to vent, and I think 'outrage' is the right word for what the vibe and sentiment of the song evokes.
How many times have any/all of us read about someone like Joseph Fritzle, or Ian Huntley, and had the conversation with friends 'If I could just have 5 minutes alone with him....'. In reality, if presented with a guy hogtied in a room, a baseball bat, and impunity to act without consequence, most people's hardwired moral compass would make it very difficult to administer extreme harm to another human being, no matter what they had done to 'deserve' it. Its just good to feel that outrage as it comforts us with the knowledge that we are different to those we would not wish to become.
I remember hearing about the murder of Eugene Terre'Blanche on the news and i instantly played 'Red Earth', not because I 'celebrate' his demise, but I understand why it happened, and there is something satisfying about nasty people reaping what they sew.
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When you played it at Strummercamp I don't I've ever seen you more motivated to play it! Truly risen from the ashes of adversity......... I, and alot of others have loved your millstone, and will for a long time to come. One of many highlights in the canon for my money anyways......... Contradictory or not. 8)
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I, and alot of others have loved your millstone, and will for a long time to come. One of many highlights in the canon for my money anyways.........
Fuckin A 8)
Contradictory or not. 8)
It seems so simple but they just dont get it,
he meant what he said at the time that he said it ;)
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Sometimes its just good to vent.
It IS good to vent. I like to think of myself as a decent and good person, but when I think of what that utter c-word did to me, the blood starts to boil. Sorry if my bad language offended anyone.
Some stories here about how bad acts were met with nothing even approaching punishment. This happens a lot. I'm the son of a (retired) copper and he dispairs of how little the public are protected nowadays (BTW, I hope nobody here subscribes to the whole ACAB ideal... that's just ridiculous...)
I genuinely hate the way that society nowadays excuses ANY kind of behavior . I live in a town where so many idiotic, swaggering, simean-looking f***wits DEMAND that silly vague thing from me called 'respect' whilst offering nothing simliar in return. I've had kids who looked about 12 years old call me a c**t and then thow a mayo-smeared kebab in my face because I was smoking a fag outside my local pizza place and I didn't go to the off-licence over the road to buy them some booze... and then they threatened to stab me.
I am so bloody sick of of UK society nowadays...
And, as I mentioned before, if you want Vengeance, you should go out and get it because, God knows, no-one else will give a shit...
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Thanks again for the replies, especially to JS for sharing his thoughts. I appreciate that this is not the first time this topic has been raised.
I'm also sorry to hear some of the experiences described here and the bitterness that they caused. While there are plenty of things that make me mad or question my faith in humanity, my belief in forgiveness has never really been tested, at least not to my mind.
The song most certainly is 'a four minute blast entirely true to itself' and I can like it for that.
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after reading JS reply, and to bring in another thread - could it be because of this song why they have not been asked to do 'Later' ?
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Hi Toronto. I have often wondered whether the band would have crossed over completely into the mainstream without this song, or perhaps without the infamous chorus. I think it branded them and if you are not interested in lyrics, it would be very easy to misinterpret the song. Having said that, Christian Militia and Spirit of the Falklandsin particular were still songs that swam against the tide of popular opinion in the early 80's. Also on a different note, The Intense Humming of Evil on The Holy Bible by the Manics is a very powerful holocaust song. I think that whatever keeps that subject in the public conciousness isfor the good. Even the deniers raise awareness that it happened.
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Personally I do believe in vengeance and when the time comes to deal with it I will.
The reason I'm saying this because of something that happened to me at a scooter rally in July 2012
I manage a Lambretta scooter racing team in my spare time and we've been going 3 years.
When we started we had a young lad racing for us and in the first year he did okay but went downhill rapidly in the second year,he was given plenty of warnings and chances but young lads being young lads he though he knew better,so i got the team together and told him that he one more chance to get his act together and sort himself out as he was becoming a danger to himself and other riders on the track.
His last opportunity came and nothing changed so i told him that it was over and that was it.
fast forward a month or so and I'm at a national scooter rally in Lincoln and wake up on the Sunday morning to find my Lambretta vandalised, every panel sctratched and gouged.
Over 4000 people there and a couple of thousand scooters and mine was the only one touched.
He was there along with his club and family,I have no proof....yet but it looks as though his father and friend are the main culprit,there's a lot of circumstantial evidence but nothing concrete.
I had to get the scooter reprayed so got this on it
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/WRCscootlyrics.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/WRCscootlyrics.jpg.html)
This is what happened to it!!!!
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism10.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism10.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism9.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism9.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism6.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism6.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism7.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism7.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism5.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism5.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism3.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism3.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism1.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism1.jpg.html)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/LammyVandalism2.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/LammyVandalism2.jpg.html)
It may seem trivial to you but I've been into the scooter scene since 1984 and this thing shouldn't happen for whatever reason.
Friends on the scene and also people I've never met were so disgusted with this they set up a donations page to help me get the scooter resprayed etc and I received over £3500 in 2 weeks, which restored my faith in the human race.
So do I believe in vengeance?
yes I do
Looks like this now :)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm179/RACred/WRCScoot.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/RACred/media/WRCScoot.jpg.html)
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Ironontour the new paint job is top drawer! Hopefully it'll spur you onto better results and a big two fingers up at the scrote who keyed the old paint job.........
As for Vengeance keeping NMA off Later..., I can't see it. Since they did Tube and Top Of The Pops after it...... However, they were "awkward" from Auntie Beeb's point of view, with playing live anf the great "ONLY STUPID BASTARDS USE HEROIN" shirt scandal...... Maybe THAT is the issue at the Later... offices?
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Anyway, it remains an important song in a gig set, full of energy, received by the public with great pleasure.
:o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJFzqvZDUH8
Cheers,
François
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What a wonderful do that was at Rockers last year. Hope there are going to be as many people again this Xmas. Looks like you filmed that from the balcony francois ? did you film it when Stoney got on shoulders ? remembering a cheer went through the crowd when he went up. Would like to see that again :)
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What a wonderful do that was at Rockers last year. Hope there are going to be as many people again this Xmas. Looks like you filmed that from the balcony francois ? did you film it when Stoney got on shoulders ? remembering a cheer went through the crowd when he went up. Would like to see that again :)
I had actually forgotten that! =) just made me smile the hugest grin in ages remembering that! ;D
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Remember nudging the missus telling her ,look over there, she did pass comment on how sorry she felt for whoever was underneath !!, after all, you is a big lad ;D
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What a wonderful do that was at Rockers last year. Hope there are going to be as many people again this Xmas. Looks like you filmed that from the balcony francois ? did you film it when Stoney got on shoulders ? remembering a cheer went through the crowd when he went up. Would like to see that again :)
Got Stoney on shoulders of course....Coming tomorow for your pleasure. 8)
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Remember nudging the missus telling her ,look over there, she did pass comment on how sorry she felt for whoever was underneath !!, after all, you is a big lad ;D
16 stone n more to love! :D
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As someone with a deal of Jewish blood, then yes, in this case I do believe in vengeance. There are still people alive in the world who were complicit in the Holocaust and I do belive that they should be held to account. Murder is murder, genocide is genocide, no matter how long ago it took place and justice should be served.
For me, this song carries a lot of weight. This doesn't mean, however, that I believe that the perpetrators of the Holocaust should neccessarily be put to death, or that in the wider scheme of things that vengeance always solves the issue.
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With you on that Jack. I would find it hard to get much pleasure watching old men in their 80s and 90s being put to death, but at the same time, it bothers me that such men on their death beds can think to themselves, I got away with it. At any age, they should be held to account for their actions.
Not wanting to dwell too much on the Nazi holocaust, I have to say, for me it kind of validates the song to me now knowing it was inspired by JS watching a documentary on Claus Barbie. While being responsible for around 14,000 deaths, which would have been a relatively small tally for SS commanders in the east, the Butcher of Lyon was an active sadist who took great pleasure in his work, not just passing on the orders, but getting involved with the torture, not just of the Jewish, but also the French in his prison system. What was more surprising, after the war, the Americans who recognized his abilities in seeking out groups of people employed him for anti-Communist work, and gave him full protection. I seem to remember reading somewhere that after he emigrated to Bolivia, it is suspected he may have been involved with the Americans in the capture of Che Guevara, as part of continued anti- communist activity in South America. Understandably, when the French found out where he was, they wanted him. It took many years to get him back to France, a man who was indeed protected by money and powerful friends.
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They played it in Wroclaw last week; as it happened I had visited Auschwitz-Birkenau that very morning. I have never sang along with as much vigour in my life.
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I said what I said at the time when I said it..............or something like that.......u know the song right?
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I remember the days around the time when we finally captured and killed Osama Bin Ladan. There were comments on the web from around the world about how America was "overreacting" with celebrations in the street and things of that sort. I wasn't one of those that went that far, but I have to admit, I was VERY happy and relieved that we got the guy.
I'm basically a pacifist. I'm not one that seeks vengeance or ever sees violence as the answer. I think what comes around goes around. But in this particular case, I believed in "getting the bastard" 100% and had a definite feeling of satisfaction and closure that came out of his death.
So in a way, this song took on another meaning for me after the events of 911.
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Another even that made me "believe" in vengeance was a few years after the 911 attack. Around Washington DC, there was a sniper that was randomly killing people who were just going about the daily lives. At a gas station, at a home improvement center, etc. Everyone in the area was terrified. I saw mothers cradling their babies and running into grocery stores.... because you never knew when the next attack would come. They killed 10 people. It affected everyone around here. Was going to a record store to see what new albums just came out really worth the risk?
One day my wife and I had a wedding to go to and on the way there we passed the gas station where one person was killed a few days before. On the way back, we passed a restaurant where he had just killed another one. Who knows, we might have been driving right next to them and had never known.
It was certainly an interesting time but I never want to go through anything like that again.
They finally caught the two fuckers that were responsible (they captured them alive) but I would have been just as happy to have seen them taken down in a hail of gunfire.
So yea, I believe.
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I remember that gunman. It was reported daily here to on the News. I agree, that kind of situation, sometimes is good to hear they were not taken alive. Just like our very own Michael Ryan. Just wish when they woke up that day, they turned the gun on themselves at the beginning of the day rather than at the end
I visited ground zero in 2003, have to say, I don't think I been to a more haunting place. Even though it was a massive wide open space in the middle of one the worlds most busy cities, it was dead silent and very sombre.
I do remember the news showing crowds in the States cheering away when the finally found him. Personally, I would not have wanted to take that satisfaction from those crowds, they deserved it
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been thinking more about this alot, and i think those who believe in vengeance should have a longer think as vengeance works both ways which means that those who believe will be ok with people exacting vengeance upon them.
Ironontour, you stated you sacked the lad for good reasons, he obviously did not see it that way and exacted his vengeance (rightly or wrongly) on your scooter - you see vengeance is also available to idiots - i learned recently that the part of the brain that makes people incompetent also makes the same people not realise they are incompetent so this lad obviously felt wronged by you and took revenge (again rightly or wrongly), then you feel like getting vengeance back on them and then them back on you - and it then seems we are back in the times of Huckleberry Finn where fueds & back & forth vengeance lasted for generations
i hope that makes sense
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got some troubles with the so called justice these days. it seems that someone believed in vengeance..............