The official NMA board
General Category => New Model Army => Topic started by: Stefanie225 on November 19, 2013, 04:33:35 PM
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Hi all,
I've listened to New Model Army since 1987. Perhaps some of you know my NMA Song Archive. I started it in 1999 as a collection of NMA and Justin Sullivan lyrics that was as complete as possible. Back then, before the Lost Songs or Vengeance - The Complete Story compilations came out, there were a lot of unreleased songs and unpublished lyrics. Even today I have some lyrics that are not on the official site (from 'Motorfunk' to 'Stoned, Fired and Full of Grace') plus everything I know of the band or Justin have ever covered (from The Kinks to The Spice Girls).
Later, I also started to collect background information, things the band said about the songs in interviews or at gigs, the origin of biblical or literary quotations, historical or geographical information.
I was very busy for some years and didn't find the time to update the site as often as I would have liked to. But now I have uploaded some major additions to my site, including of course all the Between Dog and Wolf lyrics plus annotations. If you've always asked yourself who Billy McCann was, why '225' was called '225', what 'Caslen' meant or who lied buried by the church in 'Summer Moors', please visit my Annotated New Model Army Song Archive (http://www.ne-ne.de/nmasongs/index.html)!
I would love to hear what you think, and of course help with the lyrics or some background information is always very welcome! Thanks and have fun with my site!
Stefanie
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Not seen this site before. Very interesting, can see myself spending much time referring back to it. Clearly a labour of love.
A thought on your notes linked to the song, Modern Times. You have pinned --
Give unto Caesar what is due:
Biblical reference: "Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."
- Source: The Bible. Matthew, 22.21 -
New Jerusalem:
Jerusalem is today the capital and largest city of Israel. It is a sacred town in the Islamic, Jewish and Christian faiths. Christians believe that a New Jerusalem, a physical or spiritual reconstruction of the historical town, will appear on earth after Judgement Day as the place where all true believers will spend eternity with God.
I maybe wrong, but I have always thought this song is about a Parliamentarian defeat during the English Civil War, given from the perspective of defeated Parliamentarian soldiers.
Certainly the Parliamentarians won the war, but of coarse, not every battle. As the song refers to a bitter defeat, and saying some surrendered easily, I have thought it was a reflection of the Battle of Adwalton Moor 30 June 1643. The potential interest from Justin's point of view being that the battle was centred around Bradford. A heavy defeat for the Parliamentarians which at its height saw the Parliamentarian army fleeing back to Bradford, and lead to the Royalist forces having control of most of Yorkshire.
The potential English Civil War references being "new Jerusalem to be built with love and guts and truth". This I have thought was a reference to the Hymn Jerrusalem, the idea of building a better England, which was the aim of the Parliamentarian cause.
Also, the line "We give unto Caesar what is due and harbour the bitterness of defeat and daydreams of revenge", possibly a reference to King Charles. The war starting on August 22th 1642 when the king raised his standard, or flag at the gates of Nottingham Castle with the legend -GIVE CAESAR HIS DUE- written on the standard, the King declaring his divine right by God to rule the country unchallenged.
That's what the song says to me, but my judgement maybe clouded through my interest in the history of the English Civil War. Would love to know if this was or not what JS was writing about. If not then just confirms that his superb lyrics can mean different things to different people.
shite, look at the time, I,m goin to bed
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Hi Shush,
thanks for your reply. As far as my site is concerned, I try not to interpret but mostly state more or less confirmed facts. So for example, I explain where 'New Jerusalem' comes from, but not what it might stand for in this particular song.
I find your interpretation of 'Modern Times' very interesting. There are a lot of things in it I did not know, e.g. the 'Give Caesar his due' reference, that I'd like to include on my site. I always thought the song refers back to Justin Sullivan's years as a kid and young man, the spirit of liberation, optimism that societies were moving in a good direction (the civil rights movement in the late 60s, punk in the 70s). Then Thatcher, Reagan, Kohl came and destroyed it all, and even some of the old companions had never been too serious about it ('it was just the fashion').
I believe that both interpretations can be true at the same time. Like in 'The Charge', for example, which is about a then current event (the miner's strike in 1984) that is compared to a historical occurence (a battle in the Crimean War), using lines from a classical poem ('The Charge of the Light Brigade' by Tennyson).
That is what I love so much about NMA's lyrics! They are so multi-layered, dense and deep. 'Modern Times' is really universal, it might just as well be applied to the change in Eastern Europe in the late 80s, or to the Arab Spring and how the liberals, feminists etc. in the region must feel about it now.
Cheers,
Stefanie
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It's very interesting stuff Stefanie. I think I will be visiting your site quite a bit in the next few weeks :)
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Stephanie... thank you!
This is obviously a labour of love and is appreciated by myself and all the rest of us who are touched by NMA more than any other music. Well done. I'll be scouring your archive as I listen for months/years to come.
And yes it is kinda nutty/obsessive but in a good way.
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Not seen this site before. Very interesting, can see myself spending much time referring back to it. Clearly a labour of love.
A thought on your notes linked to the song, Modern Times. You have pinned --
Give unto Caesar what is due:
Biblical reference: "Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."
- Source: The Bible. Matthew, 22.21 -
New Jerusalem:
Jerusalem is today the capital and largest city of Israel. It is a sacred town in the Islamic, Jewish and Christian faiths. Christians believe that a New Jerusalem, a physical or spiritual reconstruction of the historical town, will appear on earth after Judgement Day as the place where all true believers will spend eternity with God.
I maybe wrong, but I have always thought this song is about a Parliamentarian defeat during the English Civil War, given from the perspective of defeated Parliamentarian soldiers.
Certainly the Parliamentarians won the war, but of coarse, not every battle. As the song refers to a bitter defeat, and saying some surrendered easily, I have thought it was a reflection of the Battle of Adwalton Moor 30 June 1643. The potential interest from Justin's point of view being that the battle was centred around Bradford. A heavy defeat for the Parliamentarians which at its height saw the Parliamentarian army fleeing back to Bradford, and lead to the Royalist forces having control of most of Yorkshire.
The potential English Civil War references being "new Jerusalem to be built with love and guts and truth". This I have thought was a reference to the Hymn Jerrusalem, the idea of building a better England, which was the aim of the Parliamentarian cause.
Also, the line "We give unto Caesar what is due and harbour the bitterness of defeat and daydreams of revenge", possibly a reference to King Charles. The war starting on August 22th 1642 when the king raised his standard, or flag at the gates of Nottingham Castle with the legend -GIVE CAESAR HIS DUE- written on the standard, the King declaring his divine right by God to rule the country unchallenged.
That's what the song says to me, but my judgement maybe clouded through my interest in the history of the English Civil War. Would love to know if this was or not what JS was writing about. If not then just confirms that his superb lyrics can mean different things to different people.
shite, look at the time, I,m goin to bed
I think both explanations could be right at the same time in that biblical language and allusion was very much part of life in the 17th century. Charles I's banner was a direct reference to the biblical quote; Jesus said this when questioned by the pharisees whether people should give money to the government or to the temple - his answer was effectively "both".
the poem Jerusalem is of course later in time than the Civil War but the allegory of the New Jerusalem as the ideal place was not as far as I know new to Blake - I could be wrong.
Personally I thought that Modern Times was another reference to the fading away of the idealism of the early/mid 80's and echoes of NMA's own experiences, very much in the vein of RIP and even Brave New World. But even there the allegories could be read in either direction. And that is part of the skill of Justin's lyric writing - thought provoking and capable of interpretation in many ways.
As long as people don't start quoting Justin to "prove" an argument about something else (in a pseudo biblical way)....I've seen it done in the past and it made me cringe!
And more importantly to the thread, good site Stephanie :)
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Thanks for letting us know about your site, Stefanie - fascinating stuff and good on you for creating and maintaining it so well. I shall definitely revisit it regularly.
Cheers
Barty
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Thanks for a great site, Stefanie - I have stumbled across it in the past, will have to take a look at the new songs...
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A very informative site, very well organised.
Thank you !
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Not seen this site before. Very interesting, can see myself spending much time referring back to it. Clearly a labour of love.
A thought on your notes linked to the song, Modern Times. You have pinned --
Give unto Caesar what is due:
Biblical reference: "Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."
- Source: The Bible. Matthew, 22.21 -
New Jerusalem:
Jerusalem is today the capital and largest city of Israel. It is a sacred town in the Islamic, Jewish and Christian faiths. Christians believe that a New Jerusalem, a physical or spiritual reconstruction of the historical town, will appear on earth after Judgement Day as the place where all true believers will spend eternity with God.
I maybe wrong, but I have always thought this song is about a Parliamentarian defeat during the English Civil War, given from the perspective of defeated Parliamentarian soldiers.
Certainly the Parliamentarians won the war, but of coarse, not every battle. As the song refers to a bitter defeat, and saying some surrendered easily, I have thought it was a reflection of the Battle of Adwalton Moor 30 June 1643. The potential interest from Justin's point of view being that the battle was centred around Bradford. A heavy defeat for the Parliamentarians which at its height saw the Parliamentarian army fleeing back to Bradford, and lead to the Royalist forces having control of most of Yorkshire.
The potential English Civil War references being "new Jerusalem to be built with love and guts and truth". This I have thought was a reference to the Hymn Jerrusalem, the idea of building a better England, which was the aim of the Parliamentarian cause.
Also, the line "We give unto Caesar what is due and harbour the bitterness of defeat and daydreams of revenge", possibly a reference to King Charles. The war starting on August 22th 1642 when the king raised his standard, or flag at the gates of Nottingham Castle with the legend -GIVE CAESAR HIS DUE- written on the standard, the King declaring his divine right by God to rule the country unchallenged.
That's what the song says to me, but my judgement maybe clouded through my interest in the history of the English Civil War. Would love to know if this was or not what JS was writing about. If not then just confirms that his superb lyrics can mean different things to different people.
shite, look at the time, I,m goin to bed
I think both explanations could be right at the same time in that biblical language and allusion was very much part of life in the 17th century. Charles I's banner was a direct reference to the biblical quote; Jesus said this when questioned by the pharisees whether people should give money to the government or to the temple - his answer was effectively "both".
the poem Jerusalem is of course later in time than the Civil War but the allegory of the New Jerusalem as the ideal place was not as far as I know new to Blake - I could be wrong.
Personally I thought that Modern Times was another reference to the fading away of the idealism of the early/mid 80's and echoes of NMA's own experiences, very much in the vein of RIP and even Brave New World. But even there the allegories could be read in either direction. And that is part of the skill of Justin's lyric writing - thought provoking and capable of interpretation in many ways.
As long as people don't start quoting Justin to "prove" an argument about something else (in a pseudo biblical way)....I've seen it done in the past and it made me cringe!
And more importantly to the thread, good site Stephanie :)
I am reliably informed,,, its about things going wrong in general ;)
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Hi,
Modern Times is about the aftermath of the miners strike. The Charge II if you will. Justin has said so. Put it in that context and it makes beautiful, perfect, simple sense.
Cheers.
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Hello Ragamuffin,
I am sure you are right, but when I added
"I am reliably informed,,, its about things going wrong in general" ,
I was quoting Justin on what he said just before he sang it a few hours earlier. He did say that with a rye smile on his face. Most probably wishful thinking on my part, but I thought he may well have said that after reading this very discussion.
All I would add is I think it is a compliment to an excellent song, that the thought provoking lyrics, even if written about one thing directly, can mean different things to different people.
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And in the Anthology booklet Justin says "Modern Times" is "about facing up to the failure of all the idealistic dreams and causes of my youth". Does he even know himself what he writes about? ;)
Cheers,
Stefanie
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"it doesn't matter what you say
because they'll always find some meaning in it anyway"
[icon - henry rollins]
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I have never visited the site before but it's fantastic.
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Morning folks, first day of the holiday for me so I've got some time! Dug out the burned dvd of the 20th anniversary gig and found the reference I was thinking of. After The Charge JS say "And this song is how we all dealt with that defeat, this called Modern Time."
However, as has been said often over the intervening years "Nothing is ever meant to last, No mirror no shadow." ;)
I reckon that JS had the strike in mind when it was written but the lyric is ambiguous enough to apply to being on any losing side in almost any conflict. ???
Either way, or perhaps a different way, the outcome of all this is that I'm now sat on my fat arse (considerably fatter than my thin arse I can see on my mate's shoulders!) Watching the 20th anniversary DVD. Someone's gotta do it I suppose... :D
Happy holidays!!! :)
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I suppose its good thing when a song about something in particular doesn't always tie itself down to a direct time or period, such as Spirit of the Falklands and Snelsmore Wood do.
Modern Times can evolve as time goes on, where as the above two are fixed to the date they are set. It reminds me of Grandmothers Footsteps. I am sure JS wrote this thinking of U.S. overseas influence, but it could relate to any Country, even our own with a foreign policy of domination, and not just of the modern age.
Stefanie, I can see now why on your site you do not try to interpret meanings of the song lyrics, and just stick to known facts. To interpret. You would have many different answers that would neither be wright or wrong.
Interesting stuff.