The official NMA board
General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: Amandistan on June 11, 2015, 10:15:26 PM
-
For instance someone is unhappy living in their nation of birth. They have traveled and know that their country and culture are horrible compared to others. That country has basic human rights, their country is years behind.
This person is inevitably stuck living in that country due to the fact that immigration is not accepted anywhere.
Unless you are married or have a skill that nobody in that country has.
How is this not unethical? The EU regards free movement as a basic human right yet only gives that right to people lucky enough to have been born there. It's a bit ironic.
There are really are not ways around it accept.
1. go there, work illegally and never leave because they will catch you at the border.
2. Become nomadic. Work yet move from place to place. Staying the legal visitors limited, then leaving for as ever long as needed for the clock to reset. Then return. T
Does anyone have any other suggestions?
Number 2 is the best way to try to get around a law that is morally wrong but the issue is the border guards are suspicious because you have committed the horrible crime of "Traveling too much for too long."
What are your views on borders. Do you think they should be open and free movement allowed?
-
Marry Master-Ray :)
-
Tough one Amanda and there is no easy answer. I'm not sure of the rules regarding skills for non eu citizens. Yes getting married and being settled is one solution n don't worry it doesn't have to be master ray lol only joking both parties. Of course some online research would help
-
1. go there, work illegally and never leave because they will catch you at the border.
2. Become nomadic. Work yet move from place to place. Staying the legal visitors limited, then leaving for as ever long as needed for the clock to reset
3. Quit moaning and expect everything to be handed to you on a plate. Knuckle down and develop the chef talents that you have to enable you to qualify.
4. Acknowledge that your experience of your own country is limited and that whilst the areas you are familiar with may have some "interesting" human rights, the vast majority of the country is much more progressive. Find areas in that country that do suit you more.
-
1. go there, work illegally and never leave because they will catch you at the border.
2. Become nomadic. Work yet move from place to place. Staying the legal visitors limited, then leaving for as ever long as needed for the clock to reset
3. Quit moaning and expect everything to be handed to you on a plate. Knuckle down and develop the chef talents that you have to enable you to qualify.
4. Acknowledge that your experience of your own country is limited and that whilst the areas you are familiar with may have some "interesting" human rights, the vast majority of the country is much more progressive. Find areas in that country that do suit you more.
I am working on developing that talent. However it's not a rare skill. People in the chosen country of immigration would easily fill it. Honestly Canada is more likely and more civilized.
Even if i move to a more progressive state, America is still not a safe country. You can't walk at nights as in say "The Netherlands." Or I could learn to teach english.
-
How could one resist Master ray? ;)
-
Or I could learn to teach english.
Oh the irony! ;-)
-
There are lots of US citizens living in and working and studying in Europe quite legally! (Albeit for a resticted time). They applied for the correct Visa, applied for jobs or study places or both and away they went.
Yes I understand the fact that you think it's "Unethical" that you can't live where you want without jumping through beaurocratic hoops but (like it or not) they are the rules that are in place at the moment.
Getting married to an EU national doesn't mean instant Visa anymore either.
Lucky escape there Master Ray! ;)
-
Hey, some countries prefer to learn American english over proper english. Like some Asian countries have buisness dealings with Americans. Therefore would rather learn American english.
The issue with the temporary work visas is that just applying costs a good bit of money. IF you are rejected you have paid for basically nothing.
I spoke to an English person at the pub last night. He had no ides that Americans could not work. He thought it was ridiculous. That's proof that not all citizens support this.
That said I hear my country of birth is similar
-
The think is Amanda that in country you have to powerful right wing element be it national front ukip etc who shout " gawd damm foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs etc" And though it might not be right it still happens. I couldn't go to America and work
-
America is bad as well. It seems no country openly welcomes immigration any more.
-
Ok. For my tuppence worth, and I'll add a world away from right wing. Immigration is a fantastic thing .....anyone who wants safety from persecution, Ill gladly welcome safe in the knowledge we're righting a wrong, anyone who comes to work for a better life Ill gladly welcome. Id love to beleive the happy EU family but there are too many cultural and national differences, which isnt a bad thing.
Im not entirely convinced that the EU open borders policy is neccessarily right, given the potential burden on the NHS and welfare system. Im not stupid enough to beleive all the foreigners are taking our jobs cos thats garbage. Im not stupid enough to say all foreigners are here to take benefits either, there are plenty already homegrown for one reason or another, have a lifestyle of living off the state, for both necessary and unneccessary reasons. I do think that an influx of people will add a financial burden regardless, in a country that cant, or won't support its own.
-
Ill add that foreigners should be in disparaging exclamation marks but my phone wouldnt let me edit the text. I hate that word!!!
-
Well firstly there are some sweeping statements in the first post. Like why it is "morally wrong"? Why is it morally wrong to suggest that if I came to your country I could immediately settle, get housing and obtain state aid, say, in the US when I've put not one red cent in to date?
I note that some of the posts do the PC dance that we have to do as any talk of immigration is immediately super glued to racism. The issues actually as DrummyB well put is actually resources. The number one problem the world faces in my opinion is not climate change it is overpopulation. The irony is the population rise fuels many issues; unrest, diasporas and ever increased resources needed which increases climate change.
Migration has to be controlled or countries resources will be overrun, whichever country that is. Look at mass immigration of those who flee from war torn African states into their neighbours for example, this isn't just a western problem.
However the emphasis from the original poster is as usual guns blazing at the "evil" US and West. Me, I thank my lucky stars I was born in the west, there are many other countries and continents I could have been born on where I probably would not have been writing this due to dying from typhoid, famine, lack of water or genocide. So I think we need to bear that in mind when prothletising about how bad it is over here! :)
-
Some people don't want to move to a country and be supported by it's government. Some are willing to work very hard and pay their way. In fact i think it's less common for immigrants to get government benefits. In my experience the mexican, south american and eastern european immigrants are the hardest workers i have ever seen.
The issue is that these people need work and should very well be allowed to live somewhere safe. Over population is world wide so everywhere it's an issue. If we opened all borders, would't we no longer have refugees?
They could just leave without dealing with immigration legal bullshit.
That said the common travel zones are horrible for nomads/ travelers. One can not see 26 countries in 90 days of a 180 day period.
-
Some people don't want to move to a country and be supported by it's government. Some are willing to work very hard and pay their way. In fact i think it's less common for immigrants to get government benefits. In my experience the mexican, south american and eastern european immigrants are the hardest workers i have ever seen.
The issue is that these people need work and should very well be allowed to live somewhere safe. Over population is world wide so everywhere it's an issue. If we opened all borders, would't we no longer have refugees?
They could just leave without dealing with immigration legal bullshit.
That said the common travel zones are horrible for nomads/ travelers. One can not see 26 countries in 90 days of a 180 day period.
So if I understand you right, you want free movement for everyone (which includes every disease, every terrorist) because its awful that "nomads" cannot go around the world. Well that's an easy one, the vast majority of people in all countries are not "nomads", they have homes, families, jobs, businesses, and most of all roots.
If we all opened our borders, how would you stop millions descending on, say, the Netherlands and how would the Netherlands cope then?
"Over population is world wide so everywhere it's an issue." Actually overpopulation is THE issue. and it is not an issue everywhere, Canada for example. Free migration will make it everyone's issue though. To say we can have free movement when people cultures, creeds, religions, beliefs, politics etc are all different is just not a reality.
-
I'd love to believe in a great big wonderful world where everybody could get along, regardless of cultural background, financial scenario, what we like / what we don't like and we're all open enough to appreciate our various good and bad points, have a lovely hug and sing 'We Are The World'...
Sadly, our world ain't like that, much as I would love it to be. People are pre-disposed to take care of their own because it's 'a world of shit' out there, thanks to the worldwide media throwing the frighteners up us on a daily basis... them foreigners? Taking our jobs, getting on benefits, blah de blah... :)
Unlimited intergration? Good luck with that. Sorry.
Am I now a massive racist? :(
-
This is a tough one. Every part of me screams let people move and do what they like. We don't have the right to be smug and selfish because of where we happen to be born. Yes we are the lucky ones.
Yet I realise that there has to sensibilities due to housing schools hospitals employment etc etc. Is it really a natural thing to look out for number one. I know that this issue affects other areas a lot more than where I stay so maybe I'm not best placed to comment
-
People are pre-disposed to take care of their own because it's 'a world of shit' out there, thanks to the worldwide media throwing the frighteners up us on a daily basis... them foreigners? Taking our jobs, getting on benefits, blah de blah... :)
Hold the Phone MR. I'm sorry but I think it is a wonderful world we live in. True, some people struggle, but the sun comes out, there are people out there who love us, the air is free, the vast majority of people would help you if you fell down in the street, we are discovering cures for lots of things all the time, knowledge and science are fantastic. If we kid ourselves "it's all shit" we are missing out on so much, because it isn't. If we look inwards, which in itself is self defeating then we are lost.
What was it Ghandi said; "Be the change that you wish to see in the world".
And of course a lot of the posts here are as usual of a self flagellation kind, ie it's always about our attidudes. There are many more countries who don't want migrants, especially if those wretched people don't adhere to stone age religions, or genocidal one party states.
For example Amanda is always quoting from a perspective as she "nomads" around the US and Europe where movement is not that tricky, until she tries to work in North Korea or various African countries, many pacific islands etc she will not see what real anti-migration means.
-
Idopas, mate, the world of shit comment WAS in quote marks, not meant as a big statement from myself... now, I am a rather gloomy person when it comes to the general state of the world nowadays, but I do appreciate that there is an awful lot of beauty out there...
What utterly pisses me off is the way that governments and general media play people off against each other and, yes, it's often the whole 'immigrants' thing to install fear in the easily-led. For the record, I live in a neighbourhood with an awful lot of immigrants and, bar a couple of folks, they all seem to be working every hour they can... a lot more than some of the indigenous people seem to do... ???
That said (and I'm going to potentially contradict myself here, so sorry...) most countries have a finite amount of resources, whether it be healthcare, housing, benefits, schools, whatever. The UK is a tiny island that is, basically, pretty broke. We can only take in so many people. There is no limitless reservoir of cash. And, despite what I said in the previous paragraph, there are neighbourhoods around the country where things aren't like what I have as my personal experience of immigration.
It isn't that much different to balancing your own personal finances. More outgoings vs Less incomings = a financial shit storm. Of course, the government could hammer the REAL problem, ie tax avoidance by the wealthy (tens and possibly hundreds of billions in lost revenue)... but then we're into Alice in Wonderland territory if we expect anything like that, eh?
So... yeah. I (sorta) love the world.
:-\
-
People are pre-disposed to take care of their own because it's 'a world of shit' out there, thanks to the worldwide media throwing the frighteners up us on a daily basis... them foreigners? Taking our jobs, getting on benefits, blah de blah... :)
Hold the Phone MR. I'm sorry but I think it is a wonderful world we live in. True, some people struggle, but the sun comes out, there are people out there who love us, the air is free, the vast majority of people would help you if you fell down in the street, we are discovering cures for lots of things all the time, knowledge and science are fantastic. If we kid ourselves "it's all shit" we are missing out on so much, because it isn't. If we look inwards, which in itself is self defeating then we are lost.
What was it Ghandi said; "Be the change that you wish to see in the world".
And of course a lot of the posts here are as usual of a self flagellation kind, ie it's always about our attidudes. There are many more countries who don't want migrants, especially if those wretched people don't adhere to stone age religions, or genocidal one party states.
For example Amanda is always quoting from a perspective as she "nomads" around the US and Europe where movement is not that tricky, until she tries to work in North Korea or various African countries, many pacific islands etc she will not see what real anti-migration means.
I know some Asian people who have difficulty even getting a visitor's visa. I spoke to someone over the internet who is having difficulty even getting a visitor's visa simply because they are from Pakistan. They are being branded as potential terrorist just from being from a primary muslim country.
I have looked into working in Asia or Africa as it's my next move. It's not earning any cash but really helping people. I get a place to sleep and have to pay for food because they are developing countries. I have actually never nomadic through America. It's my home country which i can't stand. I nomad through europe and get around immigration laws by going to a country that is not in the common travel zone for a period of time.
Fortunatley I am lucky enough to have a passport that allows me to travel to many countries without paying a lot for a visa. Basically I don't have an Asian or African passport because westerners don't even want them to visit because less than 1 percent are terrorist. Sadly if they want to attack they will find away. This just keeps out travelers.
-
You misunderstood my comment, when I said, "Oh The irony!" to your teaching English comment!
I was actually responding to your grammar error!
I don't care whether you teach Br or Am English. What I do care about is you doing it correctly!
Good to hear that you're getting your information from a (singular) man in the pub. Was this the same man that told you that Birmingham, Penzance and Bristol were the most dangerous places in the UK?
-
You misunderstood my comment, when I said, "Oh The irony!" to your teaching English comment!
I was actually responding to your grammar error!
I don't care whether you teach Br or Am English. What I do care about is you doing it correctly!
Good to hear that you're getting your information from a (singular) man in the pub. Was this the same man that told you that Birmingham, Penzance and Bristol were the most dangerous places in the UK?
Cutting but funny! :)
-
I have looked into working in Asia or Africa as it's my next move. It's not earning any cash but really helping people. I get a place to sleep and have to pay for food because they are developing countries. I have actually never nomadic through America. It's my home country which i can't stand. I nomad through europe and get around immigration laws by going to a country that is not in the common travel zone for a period of time.
Fortunately I am lucky enough to have a passport that allows me to travel to many countries without paying a lot for a visa. Basically I don't have an Asian or African passport because westerners don't even want them to visit because less than 1 percent are terrorist. Sadly if they want to attack they will find away. This just keeps out travelers.
Something that I'm aching to ask as you gallivant around the world. What is it you are trying to achieve or do? What is your ultimate aim, where are you going to settle ultimately? Most people I know/knew who do what you are doing usually did it while they were obtaining a degree or just out of school to get traveling out of their system before they started their real lives.
And as for the fact you hate your country the US, I'm sorry to hear that. The US, like most countries, has done plenty wrong, but it is still one of the most generous, scientifically forward, diverse places I've ever been to. The vast majority of people I meet there are fantastic and I go there a lot to different places for work and holiday. So I don't know why you hate it so much, but there you go. Perhaps a nomadic trip round your own country might show you that?