The official NMA board
General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: Pol on June 26, 2015, 09:40:01 AM
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Ok I haven't started a topic for a while and I'm having a bit of a buggles moment (Most of you know the reference)
Just wondering with the invention of gadgets like android tv box's , chromecast etc as well as all your illegal torrent sites and legal streaming plus what ever the future holds Will this kill off anyone investing in the future of these media. Now I'm not the most tech savey person but I can or could easily figure out how to use these gadgets.
I think there will be call for cinema and live performance but how many people are going to buy cds dvds get sky etc Currently you need to pay for a tv license yet you can watch it an hour later on catch up without one crazy or what
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It's a contentious debate, mate, and I can see both sides of the story, but it's one I have to get back to you when I'm a lot less tired and, er, 'refreshed'...
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I don'[t think these technologies will kill off film, music, tv etc but no doubt there will be fundamental changes to how they work.
People have always created art in various forms and most probably feel driven to do it to express themselves and create irrespective of whether or not they have an audience. I imagine only a minority set out to do it just to make money or gain fame. Take music for example: it seems that musicians have always existed be it wandering minstrels or whatever. But the phenomenon of the "popstar" is a very recent thing and perhaps is only a transitory situation. Maybe it will revert back to a more "normal" part of society ? I guess there has only been recorded artists for something like what - 80 years? Perhaps in time it will be seen as something like tulip mania or the goldrush.
The current "industries" must be brimming with people riding on the back of artists because they can make money ( or example I read that the entourage Kanye West took to Glastonbury was so large other artists Guest lists had to be cut ) and when that opportunity passes they move on to something else. Think about all those "next big things" who get dropped like hot coals when something else sells more. It will be the same for the current ways of selling film/music: they just have to figure out a way to moneterize new technology. Currently it seems this is by advertising but I guess there are some serious discussions taking place in corporate offices all over the world.
The difficulty is how do the artists themselves earn a living if we all want something for free? We ain't that altruistic to choose to pay for something if we can have it for nothing. Yes, yes I know here in la la land we will all buy everything NMA put out regardless and we are all saintly people but do you really think that represents wider society? No I don't think so either. If an artist can't earn enough to buy materials for the next project or even enough to live on then where does the next album/film come from?
I don't pretend to understand the way new technologies work but we want stuff for free without thought for how it arrives in the first place. There is always a price whether we see it or not.
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Terrific post, Anna.
OK, deep breath... I do occasionally illegally download. Never for music but often for films or TV.
But the 'business model' that so many media corperations relentlessly stick with is broken and outdated. Look at the most obvious example, 'Game Of Thrones', the most bootlegged show in history, I think. Sky keep it fairly exclusive. I think you can buy it for about £3.50 per episode on a Sky-related alternative channel. Now, I refuse to give me money to anything Rupert Murdoch related (not getting into that here, research it if you need to...) but I'm happy to pay premium prices for a lovely Blu-Ray set, as I always do when it comes out... nope, that same BR set always comes out about 10 months after the season ends. So I see it as 'watch now, pay later' (why should I pay £35 for the individual episodes when I'll pay £59.99 for that eventually released BR box set?) Is this so different to listening to a leaked version of an album then buying it when it comes out?
Another fave show of mine in 'Banshee'. US date for the third series? Jan 3rd. UK date? Early June. No indication of any BR release. Please, my money is in my hand, I'm waving it at you, please give me what I want (in the format I want) without having to pay ridiculous subscriptions to bloody SKY?
Yes, I know... I'm on somewhat dodgy moral ground here. I truly believe that artists deserve to be paid for their work, otherwise art would cease to exist. I get it. But Pandoras Box is open and it can't be closed again. My tiny flat is almost collapsing under the weight of DVDs and CDs that I buy relentlessly. I doubt a lot of regular downloaders can say the same.
And can I ask if anyone who disagrees with me has never borrowed a mates DVD to watch or a CD that you ripped to your iPod... that's getting entertainment that you never paid for, you know? ???
Three films have crossed the billion-dollar mark this year in less than two months.
The key here, I think, is to rethink that old business model...
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No, people will always watch films and listen to music. Possibly all digital but the industries will still thrive.
It could be good or bad for small bands.
1. The can easily get their stuff out there
2. So can everyone else which may make it difficult to reach fans.
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It's never been easier for new bands to get their stuff out there... but you're right, its a wash of new stuff out there. Still, better than relying on some bloody record company to do whatever they can be arsed to do and still take 90% of the revenue...
They need to get creative... isn't what the performing arts are all about?
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My main concern at the moment is android tv boxes with xbmc/kodi now I'm no expert but it basically seems that can watch most tv stuff for free if you know what your doing including pay for channels I personally don't use torrent sites I did you kazza back in the day about 15 years ago and like ray I did go out and buy a lot of stuff I liked, I guess it was a free sample. I know people that use torrents and for me I still struggle to get my head around the fact you can put a full season of any show on a small memory stick n plug it into a usb on your tv. I agree that sky etc are too greedy was thinking about watching blacklist its £2.50 per show but I can buy the 22 episode box set for £13 or then again ?
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I think that maybe the industries are just too far behind technology as it develops. I'm not that old (!) but I bet higher management etc in the leading sectors are older than me and I wonder if maybe they don't get it either.
I read this today and perhaps it is a way forward (Gonna crow a bit cos I actually know about Twitch as my Lad is permanently on it ;D )
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/chris-tt/what-the-arts-can-learn-from-twitch_b_7672456.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
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Thanks for that Anna - wow an extremely interesting read on something I've never even heard of, gawd I'm feeling old and out of touch now.
Was going to post something about what I done last night. Decided to watch the cult live whilst in bed and unable to sleep. So I get youtube going on my tablet and send it to my tv via the chromecast, it got me wondering why should anyone go out and buy a dvd of band they like. Now all of this perfectly legal and I do own a few cult cds and some vinyl so at least if contributed something to them
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Ha! We may be feeling old Pol but we ain't as old as The Who and they seemed to do allright :D
There was mention of how people will pay a modest monthly subscription to something they enjoy and want to be part of. Now, my Lad follows one guy on Twitch who doesn't have a massive amount of followers/subscribers but if each one is paying a couple of quid each month then this means a regular bit of "bread & butter" income. So, if a band could host it's own "channel" (?) with enough content to keep folks interested they cut out the middleman, have complete control over content and output and keep the cash !
Buying DVD's ? Dunno if this is a viable longer term market or not. Think back to how CD's were gonna kill off the music industry but it's still here. After all, people still buy prints of long dead artists work. I think folk do want tangible products but are far more selective in what they buy. Also people still go to to gigs, visit galleries for exhibitions or attend book readings/signings. I think they always will. My hunch is that it's about looking at new technologies and seeing how to use them to get your art out there. If it's good enough and connects with people then they will pay. People do want to be part of a "community".
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Yes your definitely right on a couple of points, maybe a few smaller bands could get together or a record label alternative tentacles cherry red etc. And being part of the nma community is a excellent thing.
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This reminds me of Marillion. They were one of the first, back in about 2003, to ask their fans to buy an album ('Marbles', as it turned out) a year before release in return for a deluxe edition when it was finished. They raised about £400,000 and they did it without any record company involvement whatsoever.
Classic example of a band with a cult following putting the power back in their hands and reaping the rewards (Marbles sold very well and most of the cash ended up in their hands...)
Also, John Lydon doing butter adverts to finance the last PiL album... you might laugh, but the album was pretty good and was made outside of the usual record company shenanighans...
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In the next twelve months or so, there wI'll be the start of a new revolution in entertainment technology wit the release of vr headsets such as FOVE and Occulus Rift. Parts of the film industry are already planning films around the New technology, but I've not yet read anything about what the Music industry intends to do wwith it.
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VR technology is still short of making anything considered an immersive experience. i think that they will need to consider augmenting users experiences with chemicals. otherwise our senses are still good enough to notice the flaws and poor production will plague the VR experiences.
plus, it will basically have to be a technology that can house a whole super dolby and imax capability on your head, and then some. not happening any time soon.
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Wow.. people want cinema / TV to be strapped / plugged into their ******* heads / brains, ie 'headsets'?
:o
What's wrong with looking at a screen a few feet away from you? Do you have that little respect for your eyes or brains? And what happened to the communal experience, with friends and family ?
Has nobody else seen 'Strange Days' (one of my fave films ever)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQoLWeXMdP0
What can I say, I don't even like 3D... :)
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OK, gonna BUMP this one...
... in view of the way so many people are choosing 'streaming' over actually buying a DVD or Blu or whatever...
I do appreciate the convenience of it all. Click on a link and it's right there for you! But I'd much rather have a hard copy of the entertainment I love (preferably with nice packaging and all, a solid artifact...)
Netflix, in the US, just deleted much of their movie choices to pay for their new programmes. Fine... Daredevil and Better Call Saul were excellent! But if you wanted to watch any of the films they deleted...?
Streaming is dependant on the whims of the people controlling the product. And as more corperations buy up more product, it becomes increasingly unlikely that at a full choice of things will be available...
Modern Technology? Fine... in it's place.
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I suppose it all comes down to money, I don't have Netflix etc, most of my hard copies I buy cheaply as possible second hand with a few exceptions once I've finished with them I normally donate them to the charity shop.
I do watch a bit of youtube live gigs etc it certainly makes me think twice a similar live dvd by a lot of these bands. The problem with Netflix is if you pay a bit extra you can share the account with friends etc , and if your smart you buy a android tv box, jailbreak a tv stick add kodi/xbmc and watch for free. The younger more tech savvy generation think its crazy to pay when they don't have to
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I think personally, despite all the noise, downloads etc have made no difference. Some films etc make tens of millions on their initial release. If downloads made such a difference would blockbusters still be possible?? I personally dont think so. I dare say there is some financial implication but I dont think its as big as being made out. Yes its illegal. But balance that with say the last Fantastic 4 film, which is apparently crap. If Id payed cinema costs, as some have, and found a film crap, Id have lost money. So for me its swings and roundabouts....(incidentally I havent seen it!!). Likewise music.
Buy an album/ cd scratched and you dont like it, or have to replace it and its money lost.
I think digital ownership is the way forward at prices that are affordable, particularily for home use.
And again, as Ive said before, who in the 80's didnt record from radio to cassette. Same principle. Illegal? Yes.
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Your blockbuster films are still going to be ok and you can't really repeat the whole cinema experience at home, its more the dvd market especially the smaller independent films that's going to suffer.
Same with music a few bigger bands and well established bands are going to be ok , its your smaller bands that are going to struggle though the internet can definitely help a few
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In the recent interview that can be found on here with JS, he talks about how modern technology is effecting music today. Something called spotify ??. No idea what it is so I asked my son. Apparently you can select songs to listen to for free. If you want to avoid having adverts in your play list, you can pay a little extra and just have the music. As JS was saying, there can be a new generation that does not own a physical record / CD collection and not even pay for what they choose to listen to. He also commented that bands these days make so little on record sales, hence so many bands are now touring more often to make it pay.
Personally, maybe its my age or my hoarding instinct, I like to have a brought and paid for collection of CD's / records even though I only really play it via MP3, I am comfortable with the knowledge I own a physical copy as back-up if needed.
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Your blockbuster films are still going to be ok and you can't really repeat the whole cinema experience at home, its more the dvd market especially the smaller independent films that's going to suffer.
Same with music a few bigger bands and well established bands are going to be ok , its your smaller bands that are going to struggle though the internet can definitely help a few
Yes Pol,
if you have only some hundred fans, free Spotify or Youtube are perfect to win some more fans - but to continue your work (music or cinema), you can`t continue with this "free downloads" - you have to sell real copies of a cd, dvd, right for streaming, a fan shop, tickets (cinema or gigs) ....
I have a normal job and want to get payed for my work to pay my bills - why should artists work for nothing and have no money to pay their bills to lead a "normal" live and working on things I love and forgetting all the bad things of my normal job for some hours?
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Thing is though - the genie is out of the bottle now. Technical wizardry stuff will not go away. Appealing to folks better nature to pay if they don't have to is like weeing in the wind ;D
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I have a normal job and want to get payed for my work to pay my bills - why should artists work for nothing and have no money to pay their bills to lead a "normal" live and working on things I love and forgetting all the bad things of my normal job for some hours?
I think you are assuming a purpose for music here that it doesn't really have. It is artistic expression first and foremost, very little without that. It is not necessarily work and it is not necessarily for your consumption, benefit or distraction. Those things are bonuses.
The notion that one has to go full time to be a successful musician on your own terms, let alone anyone else's, puts people off doing it. My band are going great at the moment and we'd be nowhere were it not for free distribution of our music and affordable technologies to make it with. But we don't do it full time. We work in offices, hospitals, bike shops... and frankly having done the touring circuit with some pretty large acts I prefer this.
If you can make a living just from your music then great, I'm happy for you. But I cannot abide people who slog away at it getting nowhere by whatever arbitrary yardstick they've adopted and then complain about it, as if there's some entitlement to be able to do it for a living, simply because you are good at it. The same is not true of any other vocation, most of which aren't governed by ficklenesses like taste and trend.
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In any case, the old model can't support the breadth of artists who are now able to make things by virtue of technology democratising creativity and allowing anyone with a PC to have a go.
This film explores the issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rvlaTg3vPg
Personally I'll gladly bid farewell to the guitar shop> rehersal room > pub > A&R ****** > Evil corporation > Top of the Pops route and enjoy the me > everyone route.
I've seen both from inside and I know which makes people happiest and least dysfunctional.
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Mike... couple of great and interesting posts there, thanks! And glad your band is doing well, good luck, I'm sure you've posted this info before, but what are you called, so I can have a listen and maybe check you out live if you're playing anywhere near me? Always glad to support the up-and-comers!
A couple of points (yeah, here I go... ;))
You mention how bands should work to keep their passion afloat. Rightly so! But what if there is little or no work where a band are? Zero-hour contracts, minimum wage if you're lucky, the dole queue if you're not. Roofs still need to be kept over heads and bellies still need to be filled. The world where I am (your experience may differ) is full of people right down to the bones of their arses, struggling to afford to keep their internet connection on, much less the technology to make music. Likewise, I used to be in a band (a long time ago :-[) and I still remember it costs money! Yes, rehersal studios, guitar strings, etc... What if you have no money? For all the usual stuff, not least transport to venues and petrol to put in the same van! Speaking of which, there are very few venues near me that want to put on original music, so you would have to travel a long way to play (for f-all money) in a van you can't afford... it's going around in circles now, isn't it? :-[
It's lovely to put the money thing out of the equation and do it for love. But some folks (and I suspect that NMA would be included, back when they were just young lads) want to devote themselves full-time to the whole music thing, bring their stuff to a wider audience and concentrate on developing their music and their art, not working in hospitals and bike shops and whatever. And for that, they need every scrap of cash that comes their way...
Again, sorry, this wasn't supposed to be a dismissive thread. And I wish you all the best.
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couple of impending realities
everyone will pay for everything. our generation are probably the last whereby the foundation of our media collections are in hard copy.
record labels, publishers, producers.....they are all going to work for the telcos at the end of the day. look at bt and sky in the uk. it is clear where its going. small number of massively powerful corporations that own the infrastructure for media. and the content is no different to light, electric, water, gas. they will simply meter you based on number of screens or speakers you have.
hdmi laid the foundation. it is the smartest thing the bastards have done and we've all lapped it up in the interests of device inter-operability and image quality. buried deep in the silicon of hdmi ports is a unique ID. unique in the whole world, not just to certain equipment manufacturers. and devices can read this ID which it turns they can say if the device is permitted to play the content or not.
and even when they day its free - its not really free. you pay for the internet connection. you pay for the data usage that is higher for streaming especially when using the likes of spotify where you will likely play the same song multiple times meaning it costs every time as opposed to once if you have a physical copy. you pay for the equipment. and the telcos love to serve you with the content because its easy to deliver and it some ways makes their pricing appear like value because of its opaque presentation.
to be honest, the live music industry would be so much more vibrant from an alternative or indie standpoint if we had more suited, better, cheaper venues and cheaper beer. for now fashion has won out.
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Thanks Heno,
my thoughts ...
HDMI, tv via internet, a smart tv - it`s nor free - I have to pay with my identity and money for the provider
a tv and usb or hdd recording - shite, you buy a new tv and in most cases all recordings are lost (all the devices say unknown format)
But it`s better to forget these old songs, movies - new new products are better (free trailers, free downloads to buy something in our internet shop)
Most of us try not to spent too much energy, but these internet server farms and our mobile devices need so much energy
That`s a kind of "putting out fire with gasoline" we all have to pay in the end for this
(perhaps my blueray player doesn`t allow me to watch my hard copy of Soylent Green in 2022) ;)
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Agreed totally with the last too posts , yes most of want hardware and its easy to get sucked into the consumer market, hey I do it myself. Now today I seen in paper a certain German supermarket selling a 40 inch 4k ultra hd tv for £299 n thought wow that's cheap.
Now to my point whilst nothing is free the money is going to wrong people artists need to survive to be creative without artists where does that leave us
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Interesting article about how the value of music has gone down due to technology and proliferation.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34268474 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34268474)
Interesting thing he says in that the only thing that we can't proliferate is time, so keep on going to those gigs.
Cheers
jc