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General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: Amandistan on August 07, 2015, 07:14:20 PM
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So I did a language immersion program in Poland. It was wonderful.
I however noticed the palace of culture in Warsaw.
It's Stalin's building and basically screams occupation and mass murder. Many Polish would agree.
Do you think such a building should be torn down out of respect?
The man basically ordered his troops to let the nazis come in and wipe-out the entire city of Warsaw.
He is not better and killed more people than the nazis.
The same with other symbols. Like the confederate flag in America?
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Interesting debate.. the flip-side of the coin is something like Auschwitz, left up as a 'never again' kind of thing... bulldozing something into dust just guarantees that it'll be forgotten within a generation or two...
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I agree. I think Auschwitz is good to remind people that it did happen and it must never, ever happen again.
I learned so much from the people of Poland in the past week. I just find it hear to imagine that within 100 years, they were terrorized by two brutal occupations. It's just very heavy and speaking to people who have experienced the soviet occupation personally and who have family that experienced the nazis, is humbling. It's something that makes us feel our own issues are meaningless.
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I agree. I think Auschwitz is good to remind people that it did happen and it must never, ever happen again.
I learned so much from the people of Poland in the past week. I just find it hear to imagine that within 100 years, they were terrorized by two brutal occupations. It's just very heavy and speaking to people who have experienced the soviet occupation personally and who have family that experienced the nazis, is humbling. It's something that makes us feel our own issues are meaningless.
And perhaps that's something to be remembered when you're feeling as low as you often do, judging by some of your posts here?
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Flip side of the coin. The Taliban/ISIS destroying heritage sites as they dont fit in with the way they think. Kind of the same argument I guess but from another perspective.
Im not sure i agree with bulldozing anyones past completely. Sometimes you have to know what has been before.
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So I did a language immersion program in Poland. It was wonderful.
I however noticed the palace of culture in Warsaw.
It's Stalin's building and basically screams occupation and mass murder. Many Polish would agree.
Do you think such a building should be torn down out of respect?
The man basically ordered his troops to let the nazis come in and wipe-out the entire city of Warsaw.
He is not better and killed more people than the nazis.
The same with other symbols. Like the confederate flag in America?
The Palace of culture is indeed a saw point with the Poles. A "gift" from Stalin as a thank you to the Poles for the help in defeating Nazi Germany. First of all, to built it they had to clear away foundations of important Warsaw buildings that could otherwise have been re-built. When the Polish Republic was re-established in 1989, the Warsaw population did discuss whether or not to pull it down. At the end of the day the building now is part of Poland history, so the decided to keep it. You do get a good view of the city from the top also.
Amanda if you are interested in learning more about such things, out of the city centre, not quite in the tourist zone you can visit the Warsaw Rising Museum. A wonderful museum built out of an old factory and visited daily by groups of Polish school children
As for the banning of flags and symbols, I would say no. I remember in the 1980's naughty boys would draw a swastika on a wall for shock. You never see them around here anymore. The last time I saw one was on a wall was in Munich -- where it is banned and still has shock value. If you ban such things you give them a sense of mystique and danger and dare. You make them attractive and exciting to the week minded.. Better to maintain and teach. It is like the whole question of Auschwitz camp. A disgusting insult to humanity that should have been burned in 1945 ---- or the most important historical site in the world that should be preserved and shown to all as proof of what happened and as a deterrent for the future
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You do have a good point. I talked to some polish people who would not mind if the building was burned down.
One older polish man said that he won't visit Auschwitz ever because it might make him hate the germans. He did not want to do that. I think I will try to visit it in the next two weeks.
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As for the banning of flags and symbols, I would say no. I remember in the 1980's naughty boys would draw a swastika on a wall for shock. You never see them around here anymore. The last time I saw one was on a wall was in Munich -- where it is banned and still has shock value. If you ban such things you give them a sense of mystique and danger and dare. You make them attractive and exciting to the week minded.
Absolutely right, I agree!
We MUST see, hear, read shit that we believe to be offensive and outrageous. How else can we see the problem and challenge it. Banning only makes it sexy to a section of society and also some people seem happy (often online sadly it seems) to push revolting views because it is banned by "authority", as if they are somehow freedom fighters.
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Its not the symbols that's the problem, its the people who hijack them. I would say that the sale of nazi memorabilia should be banned in the UK as it is in other countries .
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Its not the symbols that's the problem, its the people who hijack them. I would say that the sale of nazi memorabilia should be banned in the UK as it is in other countries .
Is that not a contradiction ?
Also, banned where ? Ebay is not the be all and end all of the retail world.
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my dad passed away just a few days before his 80th and Christmas last year. he had a girlfriend to his dying day. me and my sister knew this of course and accepted her. we knew she was polish and that's all we knew. it seemed that was all he wanted us to know, so, we respected that. she never showed us her "tattoo" until after his funeral. she was a little older than him. he went into national service in the royal navy in the 1950s so I would imagine she is about 10 years or so older. We keep in touch with her often and treat her as a member of the family as if ours. but she never says anything. im sure my dad took those secrets to the grave with him, and would never speak of it either.
martin
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A moving story, Martin, thanks for sharing.
Pol, I have to agree with Shush, but I suppose it depends on what you do with it. If someone gets hold of, say, a rusty Nazi-related dagger as a piece of history then fine. If they regard it as something admirable and it fuels their fire then that's a problem... but how can that be regulated? And lets face it, a rusty British Army knife could be equally exciting to someone from the BNP...
Ideals, not relics, are what's dangerous... :(
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A moving story, Martin, thanks for sharing.
That goes for me too
Anna
x
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Poland now and Poland in the past
The frontiers of Poland now where drawn after WW II by the winners of that war
My father and my mother are germans, born before 1939 in germany before the war and today their place of beeing born and raised up for some yeras is poland
They were refugees and met here after the war, living in a camp for a while
My mother visited her old village 3 or 4 times not long ago - a lot of the old village and buildings still exist (in a bad status, a kind of frozen time), the people are now living in her old home weren`t asked if they want to live there ..., they are refugees and victims of that time, too ...!
During that WW II and after that a lot of people where neither german nor polish nor rusian ?? (staatenlos) -a wild mix because of the politians decision- and they didn`t care much about the problems they caused to people without political interests and only want to survive ..
Symbols shoulnd`t be banned by a minority and religions reasons
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You do have a good point. I talked to some polish people who would not mind if the building was burned down.
One older polish man said that he won't visit Auschwitz ever because it might make him hate the germans. He did not want to do that. I think I will try to visit it in the next two weeks.
It is interesting that in other posts you want to let everyone move anywhere and go on about oppression, call me conservative, yet here you start a post about banning things and symbols you or others don't agree with. Just a point? ::)
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A moving story, Martin, thanks for sharing.
Pol, I have to agree with Shush, but I suppose it depends on what you do with it. If someone gets hold of, say, a rusty Nazi-related dagger as a piece of history then fine. If they regard it as something admirable and it fuels their fire then that's a problem... but how can that be regulated? And lets face it, a rusty British Army knife could be equally exciting to someone from the BNP...
Ideals, not relics, are what's dangerous... :(
Yes, that's my point. For the record, I do not believe owning collectibles from WW2 or any war is banned in any country. Displaying Nazi images in banned in several countries, most rigidly enforced in Germany. However, some of the worlds most respected dealers in Nazi war collectibles are indeed in Germany, their market largely North America. The typical collector a middle aged well paid man who has a room where he keeps his collection to go and look at and usually mixed with items from other nations including their own. The collecting of war souvenirs as old as war itself. Even our own legendary Victoria Cross medal is made out of bronze from a Russian cannon captured at Sevastopol.
Pol, you may want to imagine a BNP or C-18 bullyboy is the market for war memorabilia , but for example a genuine SS helmet will set you back £2000- £15000 depending on its rarity and condition. If you want to gather with like minded nutters in someone front room and wear one, you can buy a good replica for £50.
If we are going to band artefacts from Nazi Germany, then we have to ban items from Communist Russia, Imperial Japan, and maybe even from our own British Empire. Banning antiques , I do not believe will have much effect on the state of mind of extremists around today, but if we do destroy all such items, maybe people will start to forget the past a little easier, and maybe start to deny it.
One of the rarest artefacts from the Nazi period is original arm bands which amongst others Jews were forced to wear. There are still some in existence -- should we burn them? The only ones I have seen personally were in the Anne Frank museum / Jewish centre in Amsterdam, The rise of Nazism Museum in Munich, and in several Museums in Warsaw. Burn em', why not,the far-right have elements that are convinced the holocaust never happened. - lets give em' a hand !!
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Its not the symbols that's the problem, its the people who hijack them. I would say that the sale of nazi memorabilia should be banned in the UK as it is in other countries .
And what about the hammer and sickle, what about Che Guevara t-shirts (I mean he shot many people and was as reviled as revered), also should we ban t-shirts like Jesus is a ****, the infamous Cradle of Filth shirt which I saw someone wearing some months ago? Where do we stop? See what I mean? :)
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The sale of nazi stuff is banned in Germany and Austria. And I'm sure we would all agree that the swastika is a extremely powerful symbol. Yes show it in museums etc don't sell it for profit is all I'm saying
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Sorry but you are mistaken. You are confusing the issue with the fact that the Swastika cannot be displayed in Germany or Austria in any form. It cannot appear on a book cover or anything. One for Heno, the computer game "return to castle wolfenstein" comes in a German version without Swastika's. There are many collectors of WW2 items in Germany, believe me.
As for profit, the first people to profit were the WW2 allied soldiers who brought stuff home in their kit bags. Years, decades later they found that old helmet or dagger was actually worth big money.
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Poland now and Poland in the past
The frontiers of Poland now where drawn after WW II by the winners of that war
My father and my mother are germans, born before 1939 in germany before the war and today their place of beeing born and raised up for some yeras is poland
They were refugees and met here after the war, living in a camp for a while
My mother visited her old village 3 or 4 times not long ago - a lot of the old village and buildings still exist (in a bad status, a kind of frozen time), the people are now living in her old home weren`t asked if they want to live there ..., they are refugees and victims of that time, too ...!
During that WW II and after that a lot of people where neither german nor polish nor rusian ?? (staatenlos) -a wild mix because of the politians decision- and they didn`t care much about the problems they caused to people without political interests and only want to survive ..
Symbols shoulnd`t be banned by a minority and religions reasons
That's an interesting read Lotus, thank you. My family originate from the former East of Poland, namely the town Boryslaw ( today Boryslav) annexed by the Russians in 1939 and 1945. What remained of my family after the war , in fact only my Great-Grandmother was not sent as far as Pomerania, but somehow managed to relocate to Krakow.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the swastika found as long ago as Roman times / artifacts and has become a sacred symbol in such religions as Jainism and Buddism?
It isn't an evil symbol just because some evil cnuts got hold of it and appropriated it to their own sick ends.
And haven't white supremacists taken Christian symbols to further their ideals whilst trying to convince everyone that 'it's what God wants and we're RIGHT?' >:(
Bottom line, IMO, they're all just silly symbols and open to interpretation / misuse.
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These are some very powerful stories. What i don't understand is why people don't write Stalin off as just a big a monster as Hitler. Che Guevara was a revolutionary. He did not commit genocide and kill millions. The hammer and sickle are a bit different as in they symbolize a philosophy founded by Karl Marx. The philosophy is actually about equality. The Russian revolution was fought for a valid reason. The majority could hardly afford to eat because of people who lived a life of luxury. They needed to be defeated. Sadly to my understanding most of Russia is still like that. The people who do not live in Moscow can't afford to eat.
I don't think it's liberal or conservative. It's about respect and sensitivity. If you fly a swastika flag outside your home, you are an asshole. If such symbols are associated with mass genocide, then it is common decency to avoid them.
Even the hammer and sickle. If you wear a shirt with that when walking around Warsaw, then you are an asshole.
The palace of culture is a gift from stalin to thank them for their help in world war two. Helping meant sacrificing an entire city to be slaughtered by the Nazis. Stalin lets the nazis just destroy the uprising. Honestly he was just as evil as Hitler. He even fucked over his own comrades. I just don't get why Stalin is not seen to be as bad as Hitler.
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These are some very powerful stories. What i don't understand is why people don't write Stalin off as just a big a monster as Hitler. Che Guevara was a revolutionary. He did not commit genocide and kill millions. The hammer and sickle are a bit different as in they symbolize a philosophy founded by Karl Marx. The philosophy is actually about equality. The Russian revolution was fought for a valid reason. The majority could hardly afford to eat because of people who lived a life of luxury. They needed to be defeated. Sadly to my understanding most of Russia is still like that. The people who do not live in Moscow can't afford to eat.
I don't think it's liberal or conservative. It's about respect and sensitivity. If you fly a swastika flag outside your home, you are an asshole. If such symbols are associated with mass genocide, then it is common decency to avoid them.
Even the hammer and sickle. If you wear a shirt with that when walking around Warsaw, then you are an asshole.
The palace of culture is a gift from stalin to thank them for their help in world war two. Helping meant sacrificing an entire city to be slaughtered by the Nazis. Stalin lets the nazis just destroy the uprising. Honestly he was just as evil as Hitler. He even fucked over his own comrades. I just don't get why Stalin is not seen to be as bad as Hitler.
One mans revolutionary is another mans terrorist. History can be read how you choose to read it and it softens over time.
The Swastika is a Hindu symbol. I remember rubbing it off the step of a shop with my shoe, thinking, and checking to find it was the shopkeeper who drew it.
Im not convinced Stalin is looked at favourably tbh. Just a neccessary evil at the time, which then led to a huge backfire.
In the 80's the hammer and sickle was a symbol of oppression, depending on where you lived.
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Because,,, from 1941 Stalin was the main allie of GB, and then later in 1941, part of the big three, Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin in the war to defeat Nazi Germany which together they successfully did. During the war, G.B. and U.S.A. were made aware of the atrocities carried out by Stalin such as the Katyn forest massacre where all of the Polish Army officers captured in the battle of 1939 were murdered, around 15000 men, and the mess murder of his own people, but at the time, Churchill and Roosevelt were prepared to turn a blind eye and concentrate of the defeat of Nazi Germany. After the war, the west were prepared to sell the east out to Stalin to bring things to a conclusion, but the whole situation did lead to the cold war which lasted another 45 years.
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With both Poland was fucked.
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Amanda. Dont take it as a criticism but as you go country to country, you make judgements on a snippet of info. Clearly you have a big heart and thats commendable, seriously, but the book is as good as the chapter. Think about it mate :)
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I have to say Amanda, you are very re-active to the places you visit. I remember the impact visiting Ireland had on you and some of the history being dragged up having an effect on you. Now in Poland you are being exposed to the Russian oppression still felt there very strongly. You are like an emotional sponge soaking up the ghosts of the past.
But, you have started some interesting topics that have lead to some interesting posts. After all, on here, how many times can you say you love NMA ?
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With both Poland was fucked.
yes, and for the 4th time. Germany and Russia started carving Poland up in 1772 !!! Freedom 1918-39, 1989 --- ?
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I admit to doing that. If someone i sit down and talk to tells me horrible things of their past, how can I not feel anything.
It is obvious that Poland has gone through so much in the past 100 years. Just the genocide of the Polish jews and the Warsaw ghetto is far too much for anyone to endure. Much less Stalin allowing the nazis to come in a murder the uprising. Then the soviets invade. I even learned that many people did not even have use of phones in the early 80's.
When you visit a country with this much heartbreak in recent history, you do feel something.
I was there on the 71st anniversary of the uprising. It was very moving. Then after learning of Stalin, allowing the nazis to wipe out the uprising, I see the palace of culture. I spoke to one person who actually wish the building would be bombed. It's shoving the defeat in their faces and that is not okay. I heard if they tear it down, then Putin would be pissed off.
They never said anything bad about the People of Russian. They say they are friendly and most are poor.
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And this one is different than the Irish one. People are in agreement that the nazis and soviets had committed unethical crimes against humanity. We are also in agreement that this happened in Poland.
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There has been many issues raised in this thread for me it boils down to would you feel angry or intimidated by someone wearing or showing certain things and I mean the vast majority of people. Now here in Scotland you would be risking violence upon yourself by wearing the Irish tricolour, the Ulster flag , union jack etc maybe even the Scottish saltire in wrong place at the wrong time but it would be impossible to ban any of these
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Amanda. Dont take it as a criticism but as you go country to country, you make judgements on a snippet of info. Clearly you have a big heart and thats commendable, seriously, but the book is as good as the chapter. Think about it mate :)
Absolutely right!
And while Amanda goes on about Poland, lets not forget many Poles collaborated with the Germans in the concentration camps.
Every country has a lot to be proud of, and a lot to be ashamed of. We cannot forget about one countries negatives because we dislike another country more. History is messy and complex and that is why it is fascinating!
And Amanda. I think you said you were in Romania next, read up about Vlad the Impaler prior to going. Staking/impaling 20,000 innocent men, women and children alive to deter the Turkish army (it worked as well) is pretty obscene?
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But, you have started some interesting topics that have lead to some interesting posts. After all, on here, how many times can you say you love NMA ?
Completely agree! I love a bit of "banter", and banter here is good. :)