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General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: Amandistan on September 03, 2015, 11:11:30 AM
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So Currently there are Refugees form Syria. Thousands of them sitting outside of a park in Belgrade. It's a refugee camp. They are making their way to what they think are the best countries. Germany and the UK.
They go from Greece, through Macedonia to Serbia. A fellow traveler was just in Belgrade and was bewildered and heartbroken be this site and that their is nothing that we can do to help the situation.
Imagine being at home with your family and fearing for your lives every day? then in desperation you flee even if it will kill you? We don't know how it feels because we are born in safe western countries.
Now Hungary is putting up barb wired fences to keep them out, leaving the Balkan countries to fend for themselves and care for them. Let's face it Balkan countries aren't exactly that well off economically already? It's incredibly selfish that an EU Hungary expects Serbia, Macedonia and Albania to do this on their own. these countries have their own economic migrants. But clearly the leader of Serbia actually cares about fellow human beings.
Clearly the politicians in western Europe think that there are too many to help but something needs to be done. They can not just be left to die. In a perfect world, The U.S., Canada, Russia and Australia would team up with EU to help these people but they won't get involved. The US and Russia are all about self interest.
Do you have any ideas of how to help these people? The Serbian leader is directing them to go through Croatia and Bulgaria but what if they build fences? Does anyone know if they are taking volunteers to distribute food or something?
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Well I can't disagree with a lot of what you post.
But we do seem to get a hell of a lot of flak as the EU. I would add to your Russia sentence, which I agree with. What about the Arabian states, Northern African countries, all of which are nearer that the UK is for example. Logistically and economical it makes more sense to help them there.
Now I know it isn't a competition to see who does most, but we need to widen it much further than the EU I think.
In the end I thought a comment made I heard today on the news from a commentator was good, he said we are mixing up immigration and migration, those two things are very different!
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All we can do as individuals without much power is too make as much fuss as possible. Let our governments know that were not happy with the current situation. How much longer is Cameron and co going to sit back and watch people die. Don't pass the buck it's time to step up and do our bit.
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It's difficult. Asylum speakers escaping for their lives are not typical immigrants. It's also hard to tell the difference of economic migrants and people fleeing for their lives. there are just so many but when I saw the photos from Serbia it really hit hard with me. Of course Serbia is not their final destination. What I don't understand is hear in Romania their is lots of land, not so much money. However the EU are paying for better roads and it's making it look worse. Why not use that money to make a village for asylum seekers?
Why do they just want Germany and the UK? Why don't they want the balkan counties as well?
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Europe is in a state of flux it seems at the moment over this, I even heard mr farage on radio 4 say today that great Britain should take its quota of displaced people!
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I heard someone make a comment today that the US should take some of the brunt of this, seeing as their intervention in the middle east has caused so much of the problem... a country that huge and that wealthy could easily take in a couple of million...
Oh wait, like THAT would ever happen... :-[
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"Why do they just want Germany and the UK? Why don't they want the balkan counties as well?"
Sinti and Roma refugees - they prefer Germany now (still remembering what happened 1935 -45), because they are not welcome in the balkan countries, where they are born and brought up, have to live there under very bad conditions, often victims of crime against their life
Rumania is member of the EU, but what does Rumania do for their own Sinti and Roma living there? This people are not only want to live here in germany to become rich (as members of an EU country they get less money and help than refugees outside EU), they want to be safe and a chance to live without too much discrimination ...
A camp for people from Syria in Rumania and to give them there a chance of a new home - not the best idea to soöve that problems me thinks :(
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But you can't blame the Balkan country's for the nazis genocide.
The truth is they are just as discriminated against in Western Europe. They are known best in europe as thieves. this is the stereotype. In Romania it's not uncommon to be robbed by Roma groups especially in farms. They also tend to blame them for all theft.
There are also still refugees from Kosovo.
I am thinking of where there is Space for them. I don't think Germany can take them all.
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Good points Amanda about other large, rich nations getting involved and offering assistance to these people. They could almost be my words. This may be a European issue but it's a world crisis and as such all should be pulling together to help.
Maybe write to Obama, your governor, newspapers, radio and tv stations and to your American based friends on Social Media to let taken know what is really going on. It may not make a lot of a difference but it will surf as hell get them some facts.
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It's not really just a European issue, and it has been opened up wider than just the EU. Turkey has taken in 1.9million Syrian refugees so far, the Lebanon 1.2million, and Jordan has taken in thousands too.
We shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking they are all coming to Europe.
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That is true Tony.
They may or may not have been inspired by a conversation with you Maggi. But something must be done. Obama does not seem to care nor will he read what I have to write. the damn conservatives will just complain about losing jobs to refugees while watching their flat screen tvs.
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It appears that Cameron is 'committed' to taking a few thousand Syrians... but what about the rest of them?
I hear that Germany has pledged to take in 800,000 people, no matter where they're from...
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The last few days has brought the issue into tragically bright spotlights. But finally the sheer numbers involved is hitting home. Europe thinks it's being overun but now the numbers of refugess in nearby countries are filtering into wider awareness. Statistics showing which country (globally) has taken what number of refugess are quite telling - go and ask Mr Google. When you total up the numbers it's quite large!
Now, the rights and wrongs, the different sides, the who did what who caused it and who's worse can be debated forever but I think it's fair to say that what has happened in Syria is at least in part a result of global affairs. As such the global community has a responsibility in this and to me that means the UN. This isn't about individual countries. Globalization wasn't just about sharing the pot of the gold at the end of the rainbow, it was about taking care of each other too, or it should have been. So my ha'penny's worth is that the United Nations should step in.
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Fine words Anna...
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The last few days has brought the issue into tragically bright spotlights. But finally the sheer numbers involved is hitting home. Europe thinks it's being overun but now the numbers of refugess in nearby countries are filtering into wider awareness. Statistics showing which country (globally) has taken what number of refugess are quite telling - go and ask Mr Google. When you total up the numbers it's quite large!
Now, the rights and wrongs, the different sides, the who did what who caused it and who's worse can be debated forever but I think it's fair to say that what has happened in Syria is at least in part a result of global affairs. As such the global community has a responsibility in this and to me that means the UN. This isn't about individual countries. Globalization wasn't just about sharing the pot of the gold at the end of the rainbow, it was about taking care of each other too, or it should have been. So my ha'penny's worth is that the United Nations should step in.
Perfect. Completely agree. Who did what is not relevant. And the castigating of this country is wrong. we have a proud history of taking in refugees. It HAS to be a world solution. Lets not forget, and I did not support the war. in the end Iraq and Libya had an opportunity for democracy and decided for civil warm and religious genocide.
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You know Amandistan, the times are a bit special here on these days. It hasn't always been like this as it's now. Well there's always been immigration to Europe at quite high level but nothing like this. EU created the Schengen system to allow people inside it to move freely but to build also bigger walls around it. And now they're perceiving the Schengen as it's not working as well enough so they propably will change something in future... But in generally to most of the people being on behalf of freedom, left wing, antifascist etc. they will see the Schengen system itself as a step towards police state and dividing people in to "legals" to protect for and "illegals" to keep out.
Why do they just want Germany and the UK? Why don't they want the balkan counties as well?
We have them here in Finland too. Some of these people have arrived here via northern Sweden, then crossing the borders near to lapland and then moving with busses to southern Finland. There are approx 100 people coming each day. Well, I'm happy to see not all the natives are intolerant here.
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It didn't seem to get so much media attention until the horrific photo of the dead toddler face down in the sand.
When people see it, it really hits home. It's a very powerful and horrific photo.
You can send care packets to the refugees but it's Syria that is the issue. As Anna said the UN must get involved. No matter what your political views are, nobody wants massive amounts of people to suffer.
What angers me is that America and Russia are keeping out of it.
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Russia is on ever the retreat from Europe under Putin.
USA is bombing ISIL...they can't keep out of anything.
The EU can address this properly, I mean you could build a new city?
Why not there are swathes of Europe uninhabited?
The root of the problem is that people are finally finding their voice in Syria/Iraq knowing through the internet / media that there is an escape.
We owe all those living in fear an answer to that.
The criminal gangs trafficking people HAVE to be stopped, as do the criminal element within the refugees.
The EU have to step up, simple as that, there is a ridiculous amount of wealth within the union....more than you could dream of.
TXP
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This is a world issue not just Eu issue. Serbia, Turkey, Macadonia are not EU. Nor it Syria
America is damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they fight they are imperialist, if they stay out they are inhumane. I think blowing ISIS away is not so bad considering that they have done.
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I fail to see how this is a EU issue.
Many countries including the wealthy ones, the immediate and close neighbours are doing next to nothing. Some countries have the wealth and space to do a shed load more. The only way to rise above the political is accept a global responsibility.
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'Blowing ISIS away'...
Well, pumping the Middle East full of bombs hasn't traditionally worked out all that well, so far...
How do you fight an invisible enemy without killing shitloads of innocent people along the way? Which might be why so many of them are fleeing the Middle East in favour of 'better places' and subsequently drowning along the way?
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It looks a bit weird that the "countries" fighting them seem to be USA and the Kurds. :-\
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Well, what the hell can you do? If ISIS is not stopped, then more and more refugees will flee for their lives.
Something must be done to destroy this sick ******* extremist group. Probably a million people. The solution is to fix the issue in Syria if this group burns people alive, beheads and tortures, how do you destroy them without violence?
They would kill us all if they could. This group risks the lives of everyone in Syria and wherever else they hide.
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Well, what the hell can you do? If ISIS is not stopped, then more and more refugees will flee for their lives.
Something must be done to destroy this sick ******* extremist group. Probably a million people. The solution is to fix the issue in Syria if this group burns people alive, beheads and tortures, how do you destroy them without violence?
They would kill us all if they could. This group risks the lives of everyone in Syria and wherever else they hide.
Agreed, A! If I could click my fingers and every last one of these bastards was sent straight to Hell, I'd do it! They are utter c-words and they should be destroyed, like you said!
But, realistically, how can that be achieved? By bombing and killing, over and over again, thus creating more innocent casualties, thus creating more under-educated extremists, thus creating more terror..?
The War On Terror is utterly unwinnable, that's a fact. It might work in big Hollywood action movies but not in real life. Sorry if that sounds a bit patronising, but it's true.
What's the alternative? I have no f-ing idea. It's a broken and fukked up world.
Peace will never be achieved in the Middle East.
:'(
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Lets not forget that it was the uk and America that certainly helped fuel the power of Isis and basically created the situation we find ourselves in. Ray is right it would be nearly impossible to destroy a mind set, the more we kill them the more hatred we get against the west.
I like to think of myself as a peaceful person and that war and killing is wrong except in the most extreme cases, just why have the west sat back and allowed this to happen though. Are air strikes enough ? Is it time for ground troops to go in , at least special forces ?
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It's wrong. I agree but we are dealing with two issues. Extremists groups who hate everyone that is not like them, they are will to commit genocide, they torture, terrorize innocent people. Another is the government in Syria, It is corrupt. There was a horrible draught so food and water and resources are not in abundance.
When you are dealing with a group like ISIS or a government who terrorizes it's own people, How do you solve the issue without violence? Being peaceful won't help as they will just take more lives everyday.
Perhaps out governments have contributed but it's not the citizens. We can not control what Bush and Blair did in the past. It's out of out hands. It's not like this is a minor problem. People have seen them in thousands.
Then Hungary treats them so horribly.
I have never seen refugees before or knew how serious the issue was until now.
They are also in Ukraine. They go from Eastern Ukraine to the west. It's not just in Syria.
Then what about when winter comes? It's already cool in Eastern Europe, how much time do they have?
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Ok here's my twopenneth on this and I don't know what it contributes to the discussion but it gets it off my chest....
As I see it the situation is incredibly complex in Syria and the whole region and I doubt anyone really knows exactly what the truth of it is - least of all me. The main issue is the whole Sunni and Shi'ite thing on which is one of the main cancers that rots the middle East and will never be resolved. The Iranians and Saudis use Syria as a proxy battleground for this conflict. Then you got all the other myriad of factions with their agendas that are using the chaos to carve out their own areas. As happened in Iraq and Afghanistan the countries are only united when they have a mental fcker like Saddam, Ghadafi or the Taliban in charge and/or an external enemy to fight like the Soviets, the USA etc. Otherwise they'll fight each other and that's fact - look at the history of these countries. As someone else posted the countries in the region are doing little from a humanitarian aspect although they'll be supporting their chosen fighters. Russia will do fck all from a humanitarian aspect - they've literally made a killing in supporting Assad's regime so they want it to last as long as possible and ship as much weaponry as possible.
I can't help but wonder on the irony of Germany and Austria being so welcoming to all the refugees and pointing the finger at the UK. I kind of find that hard to swallow when the activities of the Greater German Reich v3 led to the worst genocide in history and ultimately to the foundation of Israel which of course has futher added to the poison in the region. But at least they've learnt I suppose. I really feel for the Hungarians and Balkans countries who are having to cope with the migrants on their way to Germany and Austria. They are screwed whatever they do - condemned as cruel and uncaring just for trying to retain some control in their own countries
However, maybe I've gone off the point. Of course when you see the pictures of these poor people then who can blame them for wanting to get out and have a life elsewhere. The numbers involved are bewildering and hand on heart does any country want to take in hundreds of thousands of a people and all the potential issues that's storing up for the future? What about the longer term issues when these people want housing, health care, schooling, work, state support till they die etc. But then get back to it's people's lives then and what can we do but help - although of course if we had wanted to take out Assad's regime we'd be bombing the beJesus out of the same people and not giving it a thought. Bombs in one plan and food in the other, it's a mental world it really is.
Ok that's enough. I really think that this crisis is a turning point in world history. The EU's attitude to the UK will only give more voice to those who wish to pull out of the EU. And I believe that right wing and nationalistic groups throughout Europe will gain from this as they will capitalise on the fears (possibly well founded) of an Islamification of Europe. These are the events that make Americans want to follow more isolationist policies and although the USA has done plenty of things of regret I truly believe that the world is a better place with American engagement than without. Interesting and possibly frightening times. I suppose this is where I end with a JS quote - but that's a bit obvious. Sweet dreams everyone.
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Actually according to this Russia had helped Serbia.
[url]https://www.rt.com/news/313134[url]
Though the way they treat the Ukrainians suggests that Putin does not care about human rights.
Serbia part of the Balkans has actually welcomed them well. It's Hungary that is the gate way to the Schengen zone/ common travel zone that is blocking them.
Bloody link it not working so copy/paste if you would like to see. sorry
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Russia helps Serbia because Russia is the self appointed champion of the Slavic world - one of the principal causes of WW1. Russia supports Serbia whatever.
Interesting footnote, when travelling to work this morning a couple of Muslim guys first described the migrants wanting access to Western countries as "trying it on" and then saying that the deliberate strategic aim of the Iranian and Shia militia is to displace the Sunni Muslims so they can repopulate with Shi'ites and seemed quite pleased that it's working, apart from there displeasure at the though of more Sunnis over here. Ain't religion great :'(
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Ok here's my twopenneth on this and I don't know what it contributes to the discussion but it gets it off my chest....
As I see it the situation is incredibly complex in Syria and the whole region and I doubt anyone really knows exactly what the truth of it is - least of all me. The main issue is the whole Sunni and Shi'ite thing on which is one of the main cancers that rots the middle East and will never be resolved. The Iranians and Saudis use Syria as a proxy battleground for this conflict. Then you got all the other myriad of factions with their agendas that are using the chaos to carve out their own areas. As happened in Iraq and Afghanistan the countries are only united when they have a mental fcker like Saddam, Ghadafi or the Taliban in charge and/or an external enemy to fight like the Soviets, the USA etc. Otherwise they'll fight each other and that's fact - look at the history of these countries. As someone else posted the countries in the region are doing little from a humanitarian aspect although they'll be supporting their chosen fighters. Russia will do fck all from a humanitarian aspect - they've literally made a killing in supporting Assad's regime so they want it to last as long as possible and ship as much weaponry as possible.
I can't help but wonder on the irony of Germany and Austria being so welcoming to all the refugees and pointing the finger at the UK. I kind of find that hard to swallow when the activities of the Greater German Reich v3 led to the worst genocide in history and ultimately to the foundation of Israel which of course has futher added to the poison in the region. But at least they've learnt I suppose. I really feel for the Hungarians and Balkans countries who are having to cope with the migrants on their way to Germany and Austria. They are screwed whatever they do - condemned as cruel and uncaring just for trying to retain some control in their own countries
However, maybe I've gone off the point. Of course when you see the pictures of these poor people then who can blame them for wanting to get out and have a life elsewhere. The numbers involved are bewildering and hand on heart does any country want to take in hundreds of thousands of a people and all the potential issues that's storing up for the future? What about the longer term issues when these people want housing, health care, schooling, work, state support till they die etc. But then get back to it's people's lives then and what can we do but help - although of course if we had wanted to take out Assad's regime we'd be bombing the beJesus out of the same people and not giving it a thought. Bombs in one plan and food in the other, it's a mental world it really is.
Ok that's enough. I really think that this crisis is a turning point in world history. The EU's attitude to the UK will only give more voice to those who wish to pull out of the EU. And I believe that right wing and nationalistic groups throughout Europe will gain from this as they will capitalise on the fears (possibly well founded) of an Islamification of Europe. These are the events that make Americans want to follow more isolationist policies and although the USA has done plenty of things of regret I truly believe that the world is a better place with American engagement than without. Interesting and possibly frightening times. I suppose this is where I end with a JS quote - but that's a bit obvious. Sweet dreams everyone.
These are very good points. To which I'd add, Islam is a thoroughly abhorrent religion, a point only emphasised by the behaviour of Mohammed himself, political Islamists and the brutal sectarian divisions within Islam itself commanded on behalf of Saudi Arabia (Sunni) and Iran (Shia).
Syria is in many ways special in the context of Arab nations, simply because the sectarian divisions are/were better managed and it has a large minority of various Christian denominations. Most importantly perhaps is the fact that it is a secular state which never tolerated political forms of Islam.
Syria and Iraq have been targeted by ISIS/ISIL, the Shia Iranians, full of hatred for secularism yet fuelled even more by hatred for Sunni Islam, and the Saudis (themselves full of hatred for Shias) who unapologetically fund and arm most Islamist movements under the even worse Islamic ideology of Wahhabism.
With nothing less than exuberant joy at the prospect of an ‘impending’ Armageddon and doing Allah’s work of killing the Infidels, ISIS/ISIL and some of their important backers must be rubbing their hands with untold glee at the chaos, anarchy and destruction of the Shia and Christian communities across the entire Arab World, Iran excepted. To add to that, it's Europe that is bearing the brunt along with Lebanon and Turkey, neither of which are considered to be properly Muslim at any rate in ISIS doctrine.
The flood of genuine refugees, asylum seekers and some outright chancers, some of whom may well have direct contacts with ISIS/ISIL and unquestionably have their hands in the well for people smuggling, is not going to stop just because The West wants it to. It simply isn’t going to stop (right) now.
Europe taking in millions of people is not the answer. Merkle has already shit herself after throwing open the German borders and demanding that everyone else should do likewise. The Balkans certainly don't need such upheaval in light of trying to come to terms with its own wars only 20 years earlier. Eastern Europe simply doesn’t want to know about refugees. The EU, as usual, cannot find agreement on anything – yet it’s supposed to be a political union. No, thanks.
Most other Arab countries wouldn’t even consider taking in fellow Syrian Arabs, Muslim or otherwise. The refugees, particularly the Arabs, themselves only want Europe, and mostly selected Western European countries at that.
Arab Christians, by now an absolute minority everywhere in the region, know that the game is up in The Middle East and they can’t go back. It’s been in the making for decades – just ask the Jews, many of whom have been driven out of the entire region. It also can’t always be up to Lebanon and Israel to be the only countries to offer Arab Christians refuge. Maybe the home of Christianity (Europe) has to step up and be counted, least the entire Eastern half of its historic congregation slips into planned extinction.
Knowing what is really behind Islam, the ensuing civil wars in Syria and Iraq and bringing an end to the continual denial, for lack of a better word shall we say, that Saudi Arabia doesn’t have its royal hands drenched in blood over this and beyond it would be a start. The problem is that The West now realises rather late that secular dictators who ruled with an iron fist, however repulsive and brutal, are a much better alternative to Islamic fundamentalist Jihadists. Didn’t we already learn this back in the 1980s?
Anyway, we could begin to correct ourselves now by doing what should have been the case initially: support al-Assad. The problem is that Hezbollah, Russia and Iran are already doing so. Either way you slice it: each belligerent has rather unsavoury elements supporting it, so it may not be such a leap now to back al-Assad after all. Waving at the devil that we know…
This crisis is a turning point, a very significant one, but it has been too long in the making.
PS Another very important point here is the role of the Kurds who have proven to be very effective in fighting ISIS. The 'problem' with that is the potential reward of statehood to one of the world's largest groups of people without a state. It comes at the expense of Iraq, Iran and Turkey, and the latter under Erdogen has shown that it might be more willing to let ISIS get the upper hand over a potential Kurdish homeland.
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It looks a bit weird that the "countries" fighting them seem to be USA and the Kurds. :-\
Umm - Iraq, Saudis, Turkey (although they much prefer blowing away the Kurds), the UK has stepped up involvement, and now their noses in it. Not just the US and Kurds.
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Why should i care?
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It looks a bit weird that the "countries" fighting them seem to be USA and the Kurds. :-\
Umm - Iraq, Saudis, Turkey (although they much prefer blowing away the Kurds), the UK has stepped up involvement, and now their noses in it. Not just the US and Kurds.
Yeah you're right. I admit my point was about some news and media that seem to be underlined more than the others at times.
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Why should i care?
Ayup mate. You care or you don't. Entirely up to you, old son.
For the record, there are a lot of world issues that I don't care about, sometimes because I don't respect the general viewpoint, sometimes because I'm not convinced about the logic behind it all, sometimes because I think there are bigger fish to fry in a general world-view. And some might fall out with me because of it.
Freedom of speech, eh? :)
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Because Syria is not a safe place to live and people must flee. Massive numbers or people are displaced.
Maybe care because other human beings live in a war zone and must flee.
Or maybe because you have compassion.
I don't share the same attitude as Ray. Freedom of speech does not mean to get rid of compassion.
I don't think there are much "bigger fish to fry." this is one of the most important issues in the world right now.
I am tired of people with western privilege to say this is not important.
I figured people here would care about this considering the band has written about similar topics.
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Because Syria is not a safe place to live and people must flee. Massive numbers or people are displaced.
Maybe care because other human beings live in a war zone and must flee.
Or maybe because you have compassion.
I don't share the same attitude as Ray. Freedom of speech does not mean to get rid of compassion.
I don't think there are much "bigger fish to fry." this is one of the most important issues in the world right now.
I am tired of people with western privilege to say this is not important.
I figured people here would care about this considering the band has written about similar topics.
And how much attention is this stuff getting in the US? Do people 'care' there? Are they terrible people because of it?
And I do care, I think I've said many words to that effect on this and many other threads.
One of our number doesn't feel the same way. He stated his opinion. I don't agree. Other opinions are equally valid.
Again, that 'Freedom of speech', eh? ???
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Why should i care?
Because you are a human being? Because if you fell on hard times, you would hope others care? Because caring about others plights is morally the right thing to do? Because we played a part in some, not all, of why the refugees are refugees? Because if no one cares about anything or anyone, what sort of world would it be?
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And how much attention is this stuff getting in the US? Do people 'care' there? Are they terrible people because of it?
And I do care, I think I've said many words to that effect on this and many other threads.
One of our number doesn't feel the same way. He stated his opinion. I don't agree. Other opinions are equally valid.
Again, that 'Freedom of speech', eh? ???
Interesting you single out the US, MR, the biggest givers of aid in the world by far! :)
Whilst it is a kosher question, me I want to know where Russia, China, Japan etc sit in all this. Why does no one ask Brazil a massive BRICS member what it thinks and what is going to contribute. I'd be interested in what other middle east countries have to say.
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I don't remember saying i don't care, i simply said why should i care.
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Blimey...
First off, I think it was me that fell on hard times, not 'ruckedout'...
Secondly, apologies about the US reference, still think they could do a lot more to rectify this situation...
Thirdly, and most important... our friend RO made a valid personal question, albeit one that many of us on this thread would disagree with.
Compassion? I got shitloads of it in abundance. I do worry about the whole Syria situation and not just what it means for Europe but the world in general. This little blue planet is changing...
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Why should i care?
Why shouldn't you care?
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I don't remember saying i don't care, i simply said why should i care.
I think ldopas gave a fair answer to that question. I would add, if someone does care, do something about it. There are several charities set up. Writing to your MP is always an option. If you don't care, don't do anything. :-\
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Its very difficult to care about everything passionately, we all put our problems first family health money etc and there is lots of other bad things happening as well. There is thousands of worthy charitys out there . Yes I watch the news I feel angry, sad and helpless at times. I know this is a major issue and these people are fleeing extremists that we aren't doing much stop. Extremists who are more than capable of blowing up buses and trains yet again or worse. That's why we should worry, give them a safe home to return to and make our homes and streets safer as well
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Its very difficult to care about everything passionately, we all put our problems first family health money etc and there is lots of other bad things happening as well. There is thousands of worthy charitys out there . Yes I watch the news I feel angry, sad and helpless at times. I know this is a major issue and these people are fleeing extremists that we aren't doing much stop. Extremists who are more than capable of blowing up buses and trains yet again or worse. That's why we should worry, give them a safe home to return to and make our homes and streets safer as well
This x
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Totally agree with Pol. Everyone has the right to choose what they care about. But this issue should worry everyone. I suppose if you are really wanting to try and make a difference go and fight ISIS/ISIL. Interesting programme on this last week on C4, IIRC. Turned it on expecting to see some real gung ho fools, but the fellas seemed very considered and sincere with what they were doing. Made me think about the guys that went to fight for the International Brigades in Spain against Facisim and which was obviously the precursor to WW2. And then I can't shake the thought that what we're seeing could in all probability lead to the next major conflict. In any case the Middle East is even more destabilised with Europe reeling from the humanitarian fallout. The Central European countries are not prepared in any way for what they are being asked to cope with. And Germany threatening them with economic measures to force them to take more refugees is not going to help. Be interesting to see if referendums were held now to see who wanted to stay or leave the EU what the results would be. The Greek crisis and the migrant crisis just highights the differences in Europe not the similarities. The US and Russia need to start talking seriously before anything can be done to resolve Syria. Nothing will move forward without that.
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A Refugee Crisis Made in America
Will the U.S. accept responsibility for the humanitarian consequences of Washington-manufactured wars?
By Philip Giraldi • September 9, 2015
On April 29th, 2008 I had a Saul on the Road to Damascus moment. I had flipped open the Washington Post and there, on the front page, was a color photo of a two year old Iraqi boy named Ali Hussein being pulled from the rubble of a house that had been destroyed by American missiles. The little boy was wearing shorts and a t-shirt and had on his feet flip-flops. His head was hanging back at an angle that told the viewer immediately that he was dead.
Four days later on May 3rd a letter by a Dunn Loring Virginia woman named Valerie Murphy was printed by the Post. Murphy complained that the Iraqi child victim photo should not have been run in the paper because it would “stir up opposition to the war and feed anti-US sentiment.” I suppose the newspaper thought it was being impartial in printing the woman’s letter, though I couldn’t help but remember that the neocon-dominated Post had generally been unwilling to cover anything antiwar, even ignoring a gathering of 300,000 protesters in Washington in 2005. Rereading the woman’s complaint and also a comment on a website suggesting that the photo of the dead little boy had been staged, I thought to myself, “What kind of monsters have we become.” And in truth we had become monsters. Bipartisan monsters wrapped in the American flag. Bill Clinton’s Secretary of State Madeleine Albright once said that killing 500,000 Iraqi children through sanctions was “worth it.” She is now a respected elder statesman close to the Hillary Clinton campaign.
I had another epiphany last week when I saw the photo of the little Syrian boy Aylan Kurdi washed up on a Turkish beach like a bit of flotsam. He was wearing a red t-shirt and black sneakers. I thought to myself that many Americans will shake their heads when looking at the photo before moving on, more concerned about Stephen Colbert’s debut on the Late Show and the start of the NFL season.
The little boy is one of hundreds of thousands of refugees trying to get to Europe. The world media is following the crisis by focusing primarily on the inability of unprepared local governments to deal with the numbers of migrants, asking why someone somewhere can’t just “do something.” This means that somehow, as a result, the vast human tragedy has been reduced to a statistic and, inevitably, a political football.
Overwhelmed by thousands of would-be travelers, Hungary suspended train service heading towards Western Europe while countries like Serbia and Macedonia deployed their military and police along their borders in a failed attempt to completely block refugees. Italy and Greece have been overwhelmed by migrants arriving by sea. Germany, to its credit, is intending to process up to 800,000 refugee and asylum applications, mostly from Syria, while Austria and Sweden have also indicated their willingness to accept many more. Immediate neighbors of the zone of conflict, notably Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan are hosting more than three million of those who are displaced, but the wealthy Arab Gulf countries and Saudi Arabia have done little or nothing to help.
Demands for a European unified strategy to deal with the problem are growing, to include sealing borders and declaring the seas off of preferred departure points in North Africa and Asia to be military zones where undocumented ships and travelers will be intercepted and turned back. One also has to suspect that the refugee crisis might be exploited by some European politicians to justify NATO “humanitarian” intervention of some sort in Syria, a move that would have to be supported by Washington. But while the bickering and maneuvering goes on, the death toll mounts. The recent discovery of 71 dead would-be migrants who suffocated in the back of a locked truck found in Austria, to include five children and a toddler, horrified the world. And that was before the dead three year old on the Turkish beach.
Many of the would-be migrants are young men looking for work in Europe, a traditional enterprise, but most of the new arrivals are families escaping the horrors of war in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yemen. Their plight has been described in the media in graphic terms, families arriving with nothing and expecting nothing, fleeing even worse conditions back at home.
The United States has taken in only a small number of the refugees and a usually voluble White House has been uncharacteristically quiet about the problem, possibly realizing that allowing in a lot of displaced foreigners at a time when there is an increasingly heated debate over immigration policy in general just might not be a good move, politically speaking. But it should perhaps be paying some attention to what caused the problem in the first place, a bit of introspection that is largely lacking both from the mainstream media and from politicians.
Indeed, I would assign to Washington most of the blame for what is happening right now. Since folks inside the beltway are particularly given to making judgements based on numerical data they might be interested in the toll exacted through America’s global war on terror. By one not unreasonable estimate, as many as four million Muslims have died or been killed as a result of the ongoing conflicts that Washington has either initiated or been party to since 2001.
There are, in addition, millions of displaced persons who have lost their homes and livelihoods, many of whom are among the human wave currently engulfing Europe. There are currently an estimated 2,590,000 refugees who have fled their homes from Afghanistan, 370,000 from Iraq, 3,880,000 million from Syria, and 1,100,000 from Somalia. The United Nations Refugee Agency is expecting at least 130,000 refugees from Yemen as fighting in that country accelerates. Between 600,000 and one million Libyans are living precariously in neighboring Tunisia.
The number of internally displaced within each country is roughly double the number of those who have actually fled and are seeking to resettle outside their homelands. Many of the latter have wound up in temporary camps run by the United Nations while others are paying criminals to transport them into Europe.
Significantly, the countries that have generated most of the refugees are all places where the United States has invaded, overthrown governments, supported insurgencies, or intervened in a civil war. The invasion of Iraq created a power vacuum that has empowered terrorism in the Arab heartland. Supporting rebels in Syria has piled Pelion on Ossa. Afghanistan continues to bleed 14 years after the United States arrived and decided to create a democracy. Libya, which was relatively stable when the U.S. and its allies intervened, is now in chaos, with its disorder spilling over into sub-Saharan Africa.
Everywhere people are fleeing the violence, which, among other benefits, has virtually obliterated the ancient Christian presence in the Middle East. Though I recognize that the refugee problem cannot be completely blamed on only one party, many of those millions would be alive and the refugees would for the most part be in their homes if it had not been for the catastrophic interventionist policies pursued by both Democratic and Republican administrations in the United States.
It is perhaps past time for Washington to begin to become accountable for what it does. The millions of people living rough or in tents, if they are lucky, need help and it is not satisfactory for the White House to continue with its silence, a posture that suggests that the refugees are somehow somebody else’s problem. They are, in fact, our problem. A modicum of honesty from President Barack Obama would be appreciated, perhaps an admission that things have not exactly worked out as planned by his administration and that of his predecessor. And money is needed. Washington throws billions of dollars to fight wars it doesn’t have to fight and to prop up feckless allies worldwide. For a change it might be refreshing to see tax money doing some good, working with the most affected states in the Middle East and Europe to resettle the homeless and making an honest effort to come to negotiated settlements to end the fighting in Syria and Yemen, both of which can only have unspeakably bad outcomes if they continue on their current trajectories.
Ironically, American hawks are exploiting the photo of the dead Syrian boy to blame the Europeans for the humanitarian crisis while also demanding an all-out effort to depose Bashar al-Assad. Last Friday’s Washington Post had a lead editorial headlined “Europe’s Abdication,” and also featured a Michael Gerson op-ed urging immediate regime change in Syria, blaming the crisis solely on Damascus. The editorial railed against European “racists” regarding the refugee plight. And it is not clear how Gerson, an evangelical neoconservative former speech writer for George W. Bush, can possibly believe that permitting Syria to fall to ISIS would benefit anyone.
We Americans are in something approaching complete denial about how truly horrible our nation’s recent impact on the rest of the world has been. We are universally hated, even by those who have their hands out to receive their Danegeld, and the world is undoubtedly shaking its head as it listens to the bile coming out of the mouths of our presidential candidates. Shakespeare observed that the “evil that men do lives after them,” but he had no experience of the United States. We choose to dissimulate regarding the bad choices we make followed up with lies to justify and mitigate our crimes. And still later the evil we do disappears down the memory hole. Literally.
In writing this piece I looked up Ali Hussein, the little Iraqi boy who was killed by the American bomb. He has been “disappeared” from Google, as well has the photo, presumably because his death did not meet community standards. He has likewise been eliminated from the Washington Post archive. The experience of Winston Smith in George Orwell’s 1984 immediately came to mind.
Philip Giraldi, a former CIA officer, is executive director of the Council for the National Interest.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/a-refugee-crisis-made-in-america/
Washington has decided to do something. They are moving 20 new nuclear warheads, Typ B61-12, to germany. Germany is flying now fully armed tornado fighter jets over the balkan. These jets can be armed with nuclear warheads. What a sign to russia and to the world.
Faster, faster, like a whirling dervish spinning round
Faster, faster, until the Centre cannot Hold
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The comment actually does reek of pure Apathy.
No, i don't know what RO has been through in life but I know that it's nowhere near what the refugees are going through. We have all had struggles but would never ask this. People in Western countries should care as these are also actual human beings. Imagine if it were members of your family or people in the UK fleeing and a Syrian said "Why should we care?" It would not be so nice.
It's not just an opinion, it expressing apathy of a very important issue. When people have that attitude they over look horrendous acts such as genocide.
Maybe I am just more passionate about it because I have lived in a Balkan country for a month. I have seen the racist attitude that is here in Romania at the moment. They have a massive amount of unused land.
It just really pisses me off to read "Why should we care." when people risk their lives to get to safety.
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amanda, you seem a little bit like a water pistol man/woman
Water pistol man full of ammunition
Squirtin' at fires on a worldwide mission
But did you ever think to stop to squirt
The flowers in your own backyard
(disposble heroes of hiphoprisy)
maybe this approach can do some good
your headline is really too big and can only be answered with: nothing
you can help organize something
you can ask at places where refugess are, what you can help
you can donate clothing, stuff that is needed
but i also see no duty to do so
first you have to get your own life on track, general speaking
i'm not a fan for self sacrificing for others
if you have the resources, the time, if you're really able to help without loosing yourself even your mind you should do it
but you cannot take every big problem in the world on your shoulders and you shouldn't
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Someone has to do something. I can't do much of anything.
Caring is the first step. If everyone did care including ******* politicians, then we could get somewhere.
Even if it's sending items to refugees or speaking or cooking for them.
I thought about donating my car, my last thing of value that I own but that won't do them any good.
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Cthulhu speaks the truth. Far more elaborately and more eruditely than I did.
A, you posted 'What can we do to help...' and just said 'I can't do much of anything'... think you just answered your own question?
We can only do the little charity bits that may do little or nothing. Nothing more. It's out of our helpless hands and to take that weight and worry onto your shoulders is to invite yourself to go crazy.
Pol also touched on the point (that I made, rather clumsily, admittedly) that as upsetting as these issues are, sometimes people have their own shit going on. Worse than the Syrians? Probably not. But people are still struggling in the UK and having a roof over your head and feeding yourself and your loved ones would take prescience over political / humanitarian issues. It ain't a 'whose worse off than who' contest. It's survival when you're forced into a corner.
Do what you need to do to soothe your soul. I hope it helps. Just don't get angry with others because of their own circumstances. Many of us have offered you advice / condolence in the past when shit went south for you. I hope you can reciprocate. :-\
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Everyone probably has their own causes that they like to give to I personally give what I can to Ayrshire cancer care who mainly help people transporting them to hospital for treatment and doing what they can. The reasons it helps people locally and everyone who works there is a volunteer unlike some other charitys.
Amanda were all with you, nobody is against you. I think everyone is trying to say to you please don't try take the weight of the worlds problems on your shoulders , your far too young for that and its a cross that nobody can possibly bare. Your obviously a very caring person and the world needs more people like you, do what you can but don't let it get too much
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It's simple to say not to worry about it personally but if you do, you do.
One can't choose what concerns them.
Perhaps everyone is right though.
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Washington has decided to do something. They are moving 20 new nuclear warheads, Typ B61-12, to germany. Germany is flying now fully armed tornado fighter jets over the balkan. These jets can be armed with nuclear warheads. What a sign to russia and to the world.
Oh poor little Russia!
But hold the phone, whats this:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/10/poland-warning-europe-russia-aggression-ukraine-smolensk-plane-crash
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-10/europeans-blink-as-putin-puts-pressure-on-nato-polling-finds
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/may/14/russia-aggression-prompts-estonia-latvia-lithuania/?page=all
See I think that taking one side, like we do in home politics, without looking at all the issues will always give us either the wrong solution or have us disappearing up our own backsides doing nothing. And all the while people flee and people die.
Just my take. :)
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Looks like i have provoked some answers here worthy of a 'Space' comment.
A couple of months ago an old lady fell over and hit her head on the kerb right outside the front of our house. I only knew it happened because my fiance screamed as she saw it happen in real time through our bedroom window. I ran across the road partly dressed in the middle of the morning to help. I brought her into our house (even though i didn't really know who she was) and proceeded to stem the blood flow. I then called for an ambulance which later took her away. She was OK.
What makes that lady less important than anyone else in distress?
Is it because my experience involved an innocent person on the receiving end of an accident?
Is it because of the fact that she didn't deserve my attention because she didn't die?
Is it because the government failed her?
Is it because she didn't have a choice?
Is it because she came from a war torn country and had to escape?
Surely my comment about why should i care has a deeper meaning. I am humane and don't like to see anyone suffer but what gives people the right on here to suggest that i should focus my efforts on the Syrian crisis?
Unfortunate things happen and have been happening for thousands of years.
I just don't have the time to care about everything, especially the things i find out of my control.
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Anyway, on that same story. The lady that i helped said that she was very religious as she was going to church at the time. Her parting comment was that she would pray for me as i was the person that helped her in a time of need.
That same night i went over to the local Spar shop, bought a scratch card and won £100.
Since then i have hung around the church purposely tripping old ladies over in the hope i win again.
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RO, just PM'd you before reading this... ignore!
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That same night i went over to the local Spar shop, bought a scratch card and won £100.
See what goes around comes around! ;)
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Good questions.....hope my answers are ok!
What makes that lady less important than anyone else in distress? It doesn't, however she was there at your house and you could take action to ensure a positive outcome. It surely isn't whether people are worthy, but what can you personally do which makes the highest impact and outcome.
Is it because my experience involved an innocent person on the receiving end of an accident? How do you know she is "innocent" she could be an axe murderer? ;) Joking aside, innocent or not she needed your help and you were at the scene to give it.
Is it because of the fact that she didn't deserve my attention because she didn't die? There are two negatives here, so I got a little lost about what you were trying to ask! If you take the negative out it basically says she deserved your attention if she did die, which I'm sure is not what you meant? :)
Is it because the government failed her?b The government gets blamed for everything theses days, but surely this is not one of them. The legal term for this is an "act of god". So lets blame god. However if the pavement was broken we could blame the council. But my money is on god!
Is it because she didn't have a choice? It doesn't sound like contributory negligence, so I'm guessing she did not have a choice. If she did have a choice, I'm betting she would rather not have slipped and nearly killed herself.
Is it because she came from a war torn country and had to escape? Did she?
Surely my comment about why should i care has a deeper meaning. I am humane and don't like to see anyone suffer but what gives people the right on here to suggest that i should focus my efforts on the Syrian crisis? No one is suggesting that, I certainly didn't. But you sounded like you really did not care about anything. Perhaps we read too much into it? Perhaps a few more words before or after your sentence might have clarified that?
Unfortunate things happen and have been happening for thousands of years. Yepp, unfortunate, evil, good, wonderful things have happened as far back as we can know.
I just don't have the time to care about everything, especially the things i find out of my control. Ah now here is the rub. I agree with you in part. But it isn't the caring, as some here have said, it is what you are going to do about it. So really you are saying if you feel you can do nothing, then why care about something? Interesting point, many might argue you can do something about anything. With Syria you could donate, you could go over there to help, you could write to your local MP....some big things, some very little, but all things we could do? Whether any of us is up to the individual and a complex cocktail of motivations.
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Excellent answers.
I agree, i could have elaborated a little on my 'Why Should I Care' comment. Thank's Idopas for taking the time to try and unravel what i actually meant.
I don't usually post much on here as i don't really like the way posts can be taken out of context. Mind you though, my initial comment that provoked all this was not exactly a masterpiece. Probably the reason why i got some stick for it.
For the record, i am a nice guy!
Got my ticket through for Nottingham, look forward to seeing those fans who manage to get there!
All the best
Matt
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Sorry if it my comments were a bit aggressive and acted like you don't care.
The answer is that the woman needed saving but in reality someone would have called and helped her.
As opposed to the Syrians still in Syria. If they cry or are murdered by extremist groups nobody helps.
That's the difference.
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I think we're going around in circles here.
We can do what little we can, Amandastan.
Unless you fancy a trip to Syria and 'help'?
:-\
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Amandastan still has the passion and anger at all things wrong with the World that comes with being a young adult. You can't fault that really. You learn with time you cannot fix all that is wrong as much as you might want to.