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General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: Johnz on November 14, 2015, 07:20:50 AM
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My condolences to anyone affected by the tragic events from last night.
Be safe
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I second this. horrible, horrible what happened
Imagine going to a gig on a friday night and this happens?
You just to think like that. What do these people hope to achieve by killing innocent people?
To all here in Paris and the surrounding areas, please stay safe
We all care a great deal and are deeply saddened by this tragedy. :'(
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At morning when I read the tens of news regarding the pure insane attack in Paris I instantly shed tears. This is totally insane and sick thing. I'm sending my condolences too to the people in Paris.
Earlier in the world it was wars between the nations. Now it could be everywhere where people gather together. But we can't stop believing in trust.
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Yes its totally sick and depraved what's happened. Innocent people out for drink, meal , gig , football match slaughtered for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. What kinda religion do you call that. So frightening what next where next. Time to wipe this evil off the planet.
My heart and thoughts goes out to everyone involved
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New age of fear
A direct attack on the way we live our lives in the West. Refuse to accept it. Go to gigs, football matches and out for a meal. But keep and eye out for that "black bag in the corner"
VIVE LE FRANCE !!
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Hi gentle Vagabonds
Here in France, we are all shocked after these attacks.
Our thoughts specially go to the victims of the Bataclan.
In not so old times, I remember a wonderful NMA gig in this place.
Peace.
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Sad, very sad.
They won't win you know. Because they're cowards in any religion.
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Beyond horrific.
Something that made me a bit sad is how many forums seem to be commenting on 'oh, this is what happens when you let people in from those parts of the world', etc...
Newsflash, numbskulls, the people who are flooding in from 'those parts' are running from the people who are doing exactly this kind of shit back there... I would bet vital parts of my anatomy that the dead terrorists, once identified, were long term French residents, if not actual French nationals...
:'(
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Makes me sad too watching the news today right now first questions was can that happened in Germany aswell ...
So sad word failes me :'(
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Sadly it could happen anywhere, certainly all major cities
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Beyond horrific.
Something that made me a bit sad is how many forums seem to be commenting on 'oh, this is what happens when you let people in from those parts of the world', etc...
Newsflash, numbskulls, the people who are flooding in from 'those parts' are running from the people who are doing exactly this kind of shit back there... I would bet vital parts of my anatomy that the dead terrorists, once identified, were long term French residents, if not actual French nationals...
:'(
Well I back your sentiments about genuine refugees, but unfortunately your bet is a bit premature my friend. The news has just said that one and maybe two did indeed get into France as refugees through Lesbos.
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Fair enough, mate... but let's see the long-term report, eh? Can the evil cnuts just show up and get big nasty weapons within a week or two or could they be plugged into an evil network for a good long while? ???
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I fear that there will be more of this in the future. It's pretty hard to stop.
It was always likely that some terrorists would use the recent refugee situation to get access into Europe. However, as these attacks show, there are plenty of radicalised people within Europe already, willing to commit these atrocities.
It's a mess but right now it's just sad.
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Sadly it could happen anywhere, certainly all major cities
I think so to, and I am sure that is what they hoped will would all think. The shadow of fear to cover all Europe and the States. I refuse to change my activities in response. I work in a major city - and will continue to do so.
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New age of fear
A direct attack on the way we live our lives in the West. Refuse to accept it. Go to gigs, football matches and out for a meal. But keep and eye out for that "black bag in the corner"
VIVE LE FRANCE !!
It is a direct attack on many of the ideals of what the West stands for, especially the concept of secularism which is something France proudly upholds.
I'd add to this that Islamists do not view anyone as "innocent". As far as they're concerned, it is a black and white world. See the concepts of Dar al-Islam and Dar al-harb...the latter is justified to be subjected to a state of jihad. Then we have dhimmis, those conquered who have accepted the supremacy of Islam and converted, and harbis, those to be subjected to further pressures to convert. Islam's intention is simple: to convert the whole world, using violence if need be.
The other problem is when this particular group can run around praising Allah and his cruelty and using Mohammed's own particularly vulgar behaviour as an unquestionable justification for their own actions. Mohammed, the so-called 'prophet', was never a man of peace. Amongst his many atrocities committed in conquering foreign lands was the torture and murder of those who failed to submit to him. Persecution of Jews and Christians was, and still is, commonplace. Being a second-class citizen because you are not Muslim was, and still is, commonplace. Concubines were, and still are, a regular trophy for 'his troops'. This is a man who justifies death on account of apostasy in many of the Hadiths and this itself is widely considered one of the immutable laws under Islam.
Religion of Peace? Read the Koran and the Hadiths...
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" (Koran 8:12)
"And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." (Koran 17:16).
If any of this sounds a bit like ISIS, why would you be surprised when the 'holy book' and the 'holy prophet' give violence against all non-believers the thumbs up. Did we really have to 'wait' for the official confirmation? It certainly wasn't the work of the Salvation Army.
We need to understand what 'justifies' this behaviour, then look at it through the eyes of those who perpetrate it and why they believe in doing so.
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Exactly the reaction and viewpoints the terrorist, whoever they really were, wanted to produce. the borders are being closed, state of emergency, state of war and more hatred against religions, islam, refugees. who benefits?
not only one hour after the incidents, again many, many uncertainties what really happened, the media presented the villains. how convenient that a syrian passport was found. again those people were said to be under surveillance by the police. again more restrictive measures will be taken to shape society into a place with lesser rights for persons in sake of so called security.
and pumpking comes along and quotes the koran to explain the evilness of the terrorist, to blame it on islam.
this is stupid and playing directly into the hands of the terrorist. this is what we need the least. this is right-wing hate speech. this is blaming religion again, without looking at oneself.
i'm an atheist and a religious person. religion, the word, means, finding a way back to yourself, to humanity, to conciousness in an unexplainable universe. i don't need no institution for that and i have a problem with believers who are not open to thinking.
but there are millions under accusation of what you wrote, when you just quote the things you did. millions of brave, honest people, who just adapted their religion where they were born and would never do anybody harm.
i just can't start qoting the west religion, the christ-insanity, the crusaders and the cruelness of that religion in its roots just because you tried to do that with islam, because i'm terrified by your argueing, by your naiveness in believing the press, your blindness to see the chess that is played with that kind of incidents and your clever argueing to show, that evil lies in the roots of islam. f**k that!
stop pointing the finger at religion or race. its always some mad and brainwashed persons who do such things and they have to be produced with a great effort and the vast majority of humans isn't even capable of doing such things. so don't put millions of people under suspicion, because something happened and we even don't know the real agenda. no, you weren't there.
A Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, a Pagan and an Atheist
all walk into a coffee shop....
...and they talk, laugh, drink coffee and become good friends.
It's not a joke. It's what happens when you're not an asshole.
Blame the mad assholes for that in Paris.
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I keptf thinking this week end especially about the poor people who were trapped inside the Bataclan venue, how it must have been awful and during these three long hours...and the post-traumatic stress after the events for the people involved now awaiting them.
How can such inhuman things can still happen in France and in the others countries, in the 21st century?
I go quite often to Paris to see friends and for work, and i know very well the area where all of this happened...very sad feelings...
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Hi gentle Vagabonds
Here in France, we are all shocked after these attacks.
Our thoughts specially go to the victims of the Bataclan.
In not so old times, I remember a wonderful NMA gig in this place.
Peace.
Thought I rcognised the name wanted to go to that one but didn't in the end, shows when your numbers up.. Though with all at this time
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cthulhu
Sorry I do not understand the nature of your post. :)
You talk about people who are angry and posting hatred against Islam, yet your post seems even angrier and you even include a nasty paragraph against Christianity, so are you not doing exactly the same thing?
I too am an atheist btw.
Pumpkin did quote the Koran, you are right, though I don't think for one minute he implied all Muslims are with this atrocity. In fact I suspect most Muslims are even more sickened than we are at the bastardization of their religion. But whichever way you look at it these attacks have something to do with Islam, yes a moronic incorrect reading of it, but it IS at its core. So do we not mention it?
You also say we are stepping up security, (though I haven't yet heard we have declared a state of war that you quoted). So what are the French meant to do when there has been a massacre, with the threat still there, do nothing? Would that not be a dereliction of their duties to protect their people.
So in summary I think calling anyone who looks for the origin of this massacre a racist is not helpful. But on the other hand anger and extreme emotion at this time is also not helpful imo. :)
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I think anger directed toward ISIS does help however. They need to be blown off the face of the earth.
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...and pumpking comes along and quotes the koran to explain the evilness of the terrorist, to blame it on islam.
this is stupid and playing directly into the hands of the terrorist. this is what we need the least. this is right-wing hate speech. this is blaming religion again, without looking at oneself...
The Koran is full of such quotes. Have you ever read it? I recommend that everyone should read it in full. I have: cover to cover thrice. Whether you like it or not, Islamic terrorist groups often take the Koran word-for-word to justify their actions. Where would they be otherwise? What would justify their actions? What is directly playing into the hands of such organisations is thinking that there is no correlation between the two.
By the way, you need to understand that it has always been the left that dislikes religion and criticises it. I can clearly remember a time when the left often rightly spoke out against religion, but we all know that the left has since entered a self-imposed ‘blind spot’ when it comes to objectivity against Islam in particular. You do realise "Islam" means submission, don’t you? As a religion, it has nothing to do with what you claim about religion, i.e “finding a way back to yourself, to humanity, to conciousness in an unexplainable universe”. It is clear what it stands for throughout. The great Arab mathematicians and astronomers, who were once world leaders in the study of such fields, were quickly silenced under Islam which removed their freedom of inquiry, something sacred to the pursuit of science itself and often obstructed by religion. How long did the Vatican maintain the world was flat?
To echo what ldopas said, cthulhu, are you not being very subjective? You’re annoyed I criticise Islam, yet you fail to recognise the subtleties of political Islam and Muslims. You then proceed to claim to “have a problem with believers who are not open to thinking”, and yet you refer to Christianity as “Christ-instanity”, without a single admission of the rather ‘uncomfortable’ truth of violence in Islam, current or otherwise. You want equality in faith...yes? Yet you debase Christianity right off the bat. Speaking of looking at oneself...
You do realise that you can afford to be an Atheist in the comfort of your own country, Germany, simply because of the success over the past few centuries in gradually removing the Christian Church from people’s everyday lives in Europe. In fact, Luther laid the foundations in the 1510s for the ability to question the Vatican. I still applaud this in 2015. The Treaty of Augsburg progressed towards secularism...eventually. Can we not now choose our religion or whether we even want to be arsed with any, simply because of the success of secularism throughout much of Western Europe. It came at a hell of a price though, didn't it? Now, do you think people in Islamic states have that same freedom of choice as we do? Do you think if you’re born a Muslim, you actually have the right to change your religion in an Islamic state? How easy do you think it is for an Arab to be a Christian? I would look in to it.
The Bible has plenty of vile in it, but we can talk freely about it without persecution. We need to be able to do likewise with The Koran, which must be open to questioning and criticism in our secular societies. Just because it is the religion of a minority makes little difference about the need to question its tenets and premises. Doing so is not a hate crime; Doing so does not equate to racism.
We also need to recognise where these jihadists get justification for their actions. If we stifle debate, we will pay a huge price.
I greatly value secularism and I’m not prepared to sacrifice it for any religion. I’m not prepared to ‘submit’ to anyone’s god.
I can quite clearly think for myself, but I’m grateful for your concern.
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I think anger directed toward ISIS does help however. They need to be blown off the face of the earth.
I'm with you there A!
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Hi gentle Vagabonds
Here in France, we are all shocked after these attacks.
Our thoughts specially go to the victims of the Bataclan.
In not so old times, I remember a wonderful NMA gig in this place.
Peace.
Thought I rcognised the name wanted to go to that one but didn't in the end, shows when your numbers up.. Though with all at this time
That does put things into perspective doesn't it. Another tour scheduled or an album tour year ,,,,,
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I think anger directed toward ISIS does help however. They need to be blown off the face of the earth.
I'm with you there A!
But doesn't blowing the **** out of the Middle East result in more innocent deaths, thus more folks turning radical, thus more terrorism etc etc etc... and let's not forgot, those folks in the Middle East are so rich that they utterly and completely control the purse strings of the world... why else were the Bin Laden family protected after 9/11? One word from those people and the financial situation of the Western World collapses into a massive depression that makes the 1930's looks like Thatcherite Britain in the 80's...
We are utterly at the mercy of the power mongers of the Middle East.
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I'm not one for killing people, vengeance if you want but where do you draw the line on this. One thing is for sure no one is gonna sit back and do nothing. Already tonight the French and the Americans have sent in more bombers. We can never defeat a mind set but we can't give up and let them win. This has changed things for good as music fans and gig goers' we will never be able to forget what happened at the eagles of death metal gig n not that makes any of the other deaths less important.
This attack has frightened me more than any other and left me totally sickened by what happened
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The truth is none of us are safe. This is not new and has been happening for decades. Initial shock will fade into indifference. Till the mouth of the snake rests up to take another bite.
The complexity of the Syria problem is mind boggling. Radicalised youth in Western Europe eager to follow a cause is the hardest thing to stop. Is it different to a 16yr old discovering punk?
IS want these young disillusioned Muslims for their own ends. To do gods work and the Internet is the main tool for this mis-education. The men who killed Lee Rigby being just another willing soldier, as per the young man in Sousse.
Unless the western governments start being transparent and honest about the situation in Syria/Iraq this will never stop. They need to engage with the European Muslim population and start exposing their policies so that there can be some counterbalance to the IS indoctrination.
But hey ho, blanket coverage of a revenge strike by the French. Nothing short of blood lust ! I understand the feelings to even up the score but in the long term it just means we'll all be discussing this again during Ramadan next year.
But maybe in Madrid, London etc.
In a 1000 years they'll look back at us and think ...'bloody idiots'
TXP
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Seen many many gigs there ... ran a bar really close to the venue ... Had many drunk nights, 2 decades ago, with the owner of the first restaurant that was shot ... my oldest friend left the Bataclan just before the shooting (he worked there) ... all of this is like a chaotic storm in my head ...
That is an event that we don't really measure for the moment. And yes, for the moment, the three identified persons responsible were french.
And there's hatred in every religious book, religion is not about love, it's about bringing the fury of God to your opponents. This being said, most of believers in the world are able to set aside the violence in holy books and to live there faith using the positive side of those writings.
And there's stuff like ISIS. I haven't read the full article, just a translation in french of 2/3 of it, but that was a REALLY interesting reading. So here is "what ISIS really wants :
-> http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
Sorry if I'm not clear enough, and for misspelling, hope this is understandable, slept so little this week-end and right now the kids are screaming around waiting to go to school
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But doesn't blowing the **** out of the Middle East result in more innocent deaths, thus more folks turning radical, thus more terrorism etc etc etc... and let's not forgot, those folks in the Middle East are so rich that they utterly and completely control the purse strings of the world... why else were the Bin Laden family protected after 9/11? One word from those people and the financial situation of the Western World collapses into a massive depression that makes the 1930's looks like Thatcherite Britain in the 80's...
We are utterly at the mercy of the power mongers of the Middle East.
Hi MR, hope you are feeling better! :)
We didn't say the Middle East MR, we said ISIS! If you look at the news, there is a civil war going on there at the moment, especially people fighting ISIS.
I also don't think that because they own a lot of wealth we shouldn't do something, in fact we must do something.
For me the solution is we need to think the unthinkable. Agree with countries like Iran (who after all are next in the firing line geographically) and Russia who are also close and others to agree a strategy. What that might be I'm no expert. But if most of the powers in the world converge on this, and perhaps economically put pressure on these states, perhaps military (though I hate to say that as like the rest of us I will be sat at home watching other massively brave people do the fighting). But we do need to do something, nothing is now not an option.
Personally considering they are most at risk as they are in the region, a lot of the middle eastern states need to up their game. I'm surprised they have not, or more worryingly, perhaps I'm not surprised.
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The truth is none of us are safe. This is not new and has been happening for decades. Initial shock will fade into indifference. Till the mouth of the snake rests up to take another bite.
The complexity of the Syria problem is mind boggling. Radicalised youth in Western Europe eager to follow a cause is the hardest thing to stop. Is it different to a 16yr old discovering punk?
IS want these young disillusioned Muslims for their own ends. To do gods work and the Internet is the main tool for this mis-education. The men who killed Lee Rigby being just another willing soldier, as per the young man in Sousse.
Unless the western governments start being transparent and honest about the situation in Syria/Iraq this will never stop. They need to engage with the European Muslim population and start exposing their policies so that there can be some counterbalance to the IS indoctrination.
But hey ho, blanket coverage of a revenge strike by the French. Nothing short of blood lust ! I understand the feelings to even up the score but in the long term it just means we'll all be discussing this again during Ramadan next year.
But maybe in Madrid, London etc.
In a 1000 years they'll look back at us and think ...'bloody idiots'
TXP
Good post, I agree with most of it until the last line. Personally I think we will be looking back at THEM in 50 years and saying bloody idiots.
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When I said 'us', it was s in humanity !
Because this religion stuff list from the ark (literally)
Plus they will have de-bunked religion by then and it will hopefully be a secular world !
I'm sorry to offend but the sooner we consign religion to the dark past, a happier safer world it will be.
TXP
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Completely agree with that Pete. I do find it amazing that in this comparatively enlightened modern age there is a religion that is on the rise whereas others are in decline. People are being beheaded today as infidels. Is that much different from people being burned as witches in Europe 400 odd years ago. The search for god is responsible for so much evil.
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I think we have to remember that is religion can be a good thing for very many people.
I'm sure that we all have friends and family who are religious to some extent. I know for a fact that my mum and dad found a lot of comfort in their faith especially in later life. Think of all the good that religion can do christian aid , salvation army, the innocents to name a few. What is the first thing most of us do when a loved one is seriously ill etc , we say a prayer. Just because most of us here don't believe and I include myself in that doesn't mean its a totally wrong thing.
And fck yes many have used it as an excuse to commit evil acts it doesn't make all religious groups bad people
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[...] They need to be blown off the face of the earth.
Amandistan, I don't mean to be rude but to be fair I think we should think for a moment again before going shout that kind of things in a social media. Not that I would be a person that waves peace signs in lollipop colours but still...
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[...] They need to be blown off the face of the earth.
Amandistan, I don't mean to be rude but to be fair I think we should think for a moment again before going shout that kind of things in a social media. Not that I would be a person that waves peace signs in lollipop colours but still...
I agree; that sounds a bit, well, fundamentalist, and we all know that's the root of the evil here. Not Islam, not politics - fundamentalism.
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Seen many many gigs there ... ran a bar really close to the venue ... Had many drunk nights, 2 decades ago, with the owner of the first restaurant that was shot ... my oldest friend left the Bataclan just before the shooting (he worked there) ... all of this is like a chaotic storm in my head ...
That is an event that we don't really measure for the moment. And yes, for the moment, the three identified persons responsible were french.
And there's hatred in every religious book, religion is not about love, it's about bringing the fury of God to your opponents. This being said, most of believers in the world are able to set aside the violence in holy books and to live there faith using the positive side of those writings.
And there's stuff like ISIS. I haven't read the full article, just a translation in french of 2/3 of it, but that was a REALLY interesting reading. So here is "what ISIS really wants :
-> http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
Sorry if I'm not clear enough, and for misspelling, hope this is understandable, slept so little this week-end and right now the kids are screaming around waiting to go to school
That is a very interesting article. Thank you very much for sharing it and strength to you and everyone else after these awful events.
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Well what do you expect us to do? ISIS tortures people, burns people alive. Films it all.
They terrorize the locals, terrorize everyone who opposes them.
Such groups deserve to die. they are so brainwashed that they are beyond saving.
It's not fundamental. If we don't defeat them then how many more attacks will there be?
There was on in Beirut the day before, then one in Paris. there have been attacks in turkey. People are fleeing their homes. These people behead and burn people who they oppose. They will kill all of us in a heartbeat. innocent people who just want to live their lives. How else can you deal with ISIS if you don't kill them?
There is no other way. IT's not being fundamental, it is a war. and ISIS members do not deserve to be alive.
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Another way of looking at it...
Uneducated folks live in a fuckin' desert and struggle for every scrap of comfort. They have absolutely no idea about the 'real world' (as we would call it), just what the vile bullshit that us lot call 'religion', pumped into their heads, over and over again... and also that evil thing called 'The Western World', all rich and gloating and white and throwing down incinerating bombs that murder families, all in the name of a city called 'Paris', that you've never heard of... but you've seen the corpses and heard the screams and smelled the cooking blood... :'(
So, some powerful people, your Holy Men that you worship, come down and call the western world 'The Devil'. Who wouldn't want to kill The Devil, especially if (a) you're utterly ignorant of world issues, (b) you've seen so much destruction and (c) THE DEVIL IS COMING TO KILL YOU!!!
Plus, you will go to Heaven if you destroy yourself, end your miserable life and relax in Paradise forever...
I'm not, for a single second, excusing what has been done, but let's please look at what's ben put to those poor ignorant people... RELIGION is just an awful thing...
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It looks like the majority of the suspects grew up in our midst, albeit in disadvantaged neighbourhoods. So to stop the flow of home grown terrorists we need to work harder on why integration has failed so badly and what can be done to overcome this. It's a very difficult task but it needs to involve more dialogue and mutual respect and understanding.
As for the situation in Syria itself; it's a mess and many different and powerful parties seem to be involved in it in ways that are not very transparent. Who sells the arms and the Toyotas? Who buys the oil? It seems that bleeding IS dry shouldn't be all that difficult but is a lot less profitable than benefitting from both sides of a war.
This is just one aspect of a multi-facetted mess though.
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And that is unfortunate but they are beyond saving. With that mind set, they will continue these attacks.
I don't think people get this but ISIS does not care if they survive. They don't care about their own lives.
Actually after doing more research they are aiming for the apocalypse because some book tells them this.
If they had their way everyone would be dead.
Why is it so bad for us to kill people who will kill themselves if it means killing innocent people?
We handed nazi war criminals to Israel to be killed. Why are people so against the idea of fighting ISIS and potentially killing them? After all their horrendous crimes, do they really deserve to be alive?
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It's not about whether it's good or bad but rather about what does and doesn't work.
First, we sell weapons to these homicidal maniacs. Then we buy their oil at cut rate prices which enables them to buy more weapons and keep fighting. We call the people who are responsible for this the pillars of our society. Something is very wrong here and it needs to be addressed.
However, this is only part of the problem and it doesn't mean that IS can be reasoned with in any shape or form. They are fanatics of the highest calibre. But what is happening right now in Syria is the same retaliation that we saw in Afghanistan after 9/11. And that paved the way for what we saw last Friday.
Like I said, it's a mess and I don't have an answer either but blowing IS off the face of the earth hasn't worked so far and involves far more than a series of airstrikes. Right now it just feels like we're poking a hornets' nest which was probably the intention all along.
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The Koran is full of such quotes. Have you ever read it? I recommend that everyone should read it in full. I have: cover to cover thrice. Whether you like it or not, Islamic terrorist groups often take the Koran word-for-word to justify their actions. Where would they be otherwise?
This is true I'm afraid. If you are a peace loving humanitarian who wants to find guidance from their religion, the Quran will speak to you. If you are a mentally ill, hateful lunatic who wants to kill, then the Quran will also speak to you.
What I find interesting / distressing about this is the reaction of Muslim communities in Europe and the UK to what is being done in the name of their religion. If you listen carefully, they stick to one narrative whenever there is an ISIS attack in Europe :
"ISIS is not Islamic. They have nothing to do with religion. Islam is a religion of peace. But now we are all going to suffer increased Islamaphobia. Now we are all going to be hounded by the Government and the media. And your foreign policy is making all this happen".
There are some valid talking points within that stance. But the whole response fails to deal with things that are at they very heart of this that they cannot and will not acknowledge. ISIS is VERY Islamic. Islamic teachings, sayings from the prophet and religious text are at their very core. ISIS members constantly quote these justifications all the time. They frame everything they do in an Islamic context. Their leader, Al Baggdhadi, has spent his whole life studying Islam in his childhood and as an academic. He knows nothing else. But all this is ignored in a desperate attempt to claw back the agenda and narrative from the alleged misrepresentation of their religion. Deep internal problems within Islam in Europe are totally ignored in favor of protecting this house of cards. It is very telling that the main mobilization of Western Muslim leaders has not been around how to fight extremism from within - it is around campaigning to make the Media use the word "Daesh" instead of Islamic State. Their reasoning is that ISIS is not Islamic, so they should not be referred to as such. But at the core of this campaign is their need to try and guide people away from thinking there is anything rotten at the core of their beliefs, to totally wipe away and discourage any critical thinking whatsoever about their religion.
We all know that western Foreign Policy is complicit in all this and has helped create the monster coming from the Middle East. But a holistic approach is needed. Islam needs to look within itself while constantly peering out of the window looking for snipers to blame while their house burns.
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We all know that western Foreign Policy is complicit in all this and has helped create the monster coming from the Middle East. But a holistic approach is needed. Islam needs to look within itself while constantly peering out of the window looking for snipers to blame while their house burns.
I agree Tariq. The link that Valstar Superstar posted addresses some of that in a lot of detail and makes a well presented case that IS extremely Islamic rather than not Islamic. I found it an interesting read. I guess it is very comparable to the crusades which could easily be dismissed as un-Christian but have all their justification in the bible. The difference is that the crusades occurred a very long time ago.
Islam does need to take a good look at itself much in the same way that Christianity did. It could be argued that Europe may be the most suitable place for Islam to reinvent itself and take on a more moderate guise. Sadly, these recent events suggest that it may actually be the exact opposite.
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It could be argued that Europe may be the most suitable place for Islam to reinvent itself and take on a more moderate guise. Sadly, these recent events suggest that it may actually be the exact opposite.
Some academics have tried to put forward a case for a brand of Western Islam that might integrate and flourish in a more positive way. A guy called Tariq Ramadan (no, that's not me btw!!) has written a whole book about it. It all falls on deaf ears though because, as mentioned before, most Muslim leaders and communities in the UK are too focused on external factors and trying to convince people that Islam is perfect to devote any thought to anything progressive.
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What I find interesting / distressing about this is the reaction of Muslim communities in Europe and the UK to what is being done in the name of their religion. If you listen carefully, they stick to one narrative whenever there is an ISIS attack in Europe :
"ISIS is not Islamic. They have nothing to do with religion. Islam is a religion of peace. But now we are all going to suffer increased Islamaphobia. Now we are all going to be hounded by the Government and the media. And your foreign policy is making all this happen".
There are some valid talking points within that stance. But the whole response fails to deal with things that are at they very heart of this that they cannot and will not acknowledge. ISIS is VERY Islamic. Islamic teachings, sayings from the prophet and religious text are at their very core. ISIS members constantly quote these justifications all the time. They frame everything they do in an Islamic context. Their leader, Al Baggdhadi, has spent his whole life studying Islam in his childhood and as an academic. He knows nothing else. But all this is ignored in a desperate attempt to claw back the agenda and narrative from the alleged misrepresentation of their religion. Deep internal problems within Islam in Europe are totally ignored in favor of protecting this house of cards. It is very telling that the main mobilization of Western Muslim leaders has not been around how to fight extremism from within - it is around campaigning to make the Media use the word "Daesh" instead of Islamic State. Their reasoning is that ISIS is not Islamic, so they should not be referred to as such. But at the core of this campaign is their need to try and guide people away from thinking there is anything rotten at the core of their beliefs, to totally wipe away and discourage any critical thinking whatsoever about their religion.
Excellent post.
ISIS is certainly nothing less than very Islamic. The response from Muslim communities in the West is wholly inadequate at best and nothing short of an attempt to sweep a very serious problem under the carpet. "They do not represent us!" Islamaphobia is simply a buzzword to stifle healthy, necessary debate about very important issues in Islam. There is a very poor appetite for integration on behalf of many Muslims which straddles all of Western Europe and is not a particular problem of one country. Islam welcomes religious conversion, yet punishes apostasy with death. It is a very conservative religious philosophy which struggles with many of the concepts of liberal, 'secular' democracies which we take for granted.
I couldn't agree more with the need for critical thinking about the very core of Islamic beliefs. The first place to start is with Mohammed himself through the Koran and the Hadiths. The second place to start is on the vicious sectarianism within Islam itself, both Sunni and Shia. The third place to start is with Saudi Arabia's own stated desire to make Sunni Islam even more orthodox and conservative under the tenets of Wahhabism.
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Well, the significant majority of western Muslims of course reject everything ISIS stands for, and many of them are integrated and part of their wider communities. And they do openly condemn their behaviour while also rightly pointing out the part the West plays in this toxic situation. But when it comes to taking the next logical step – ie looking inwards and perhaps exploring how the religion and texts might feed into this – they recoil and deny. Their narrative always comes back to the West and Islamaphobia, because looking in other places would mean dismantling their beliefs somewhat. Anyone who calls themselves a Muslim, or of any religion, will find it hard to make this step. Throughout history, there have been enlightened Muslim scholars who have questioned the authenticity of the Quran itself, and have employed some critical thinking. Lots of them have been killed for doing so, others driven to exile. You say Islamaphobia is simply a buzzword….and yes it is used as such, but I think we should accept that it does exist on some level…although that level is usually always The Daily Mail and Fox News, who basically hate everyone and are just two outlets and yet are held up as representing “The Media” in its global entirety. I have a very Muslim name and can honestly say I’ve never experienced any negative reaction to it, or feel I’ve been treated differently because of it. Maybe I’ve just been lucky. It may well happen one day. Maybe I’m not in situations / places / amongst people where it would be a problem. Maybe I don’t scour the news looking for examples of it that fit my narrative and attracting it to myself.
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Uneducated folks live in a fuckin' desert and struggle for every scrap of comfort. They have absolutely no idea about the 'real world' (as we would call it), just what the vile bullshit that us lot call 'religion', pumped into their heads, over and over again... and also that evil thing called 'The Western World', all rich and gloating and white and throwing down incinerating bombs that murder families, all in the name of a city called 'Paris', that you've never heard of... but you've seen the corpses and heard the screams and smelled the cooking blood... :'(
There's a bit of confusion between France and USA there. French don't bomb those countries for decades, and even refused some of the US wars (Irak ...).
BUT, the real problem is the awful way french treated immigrants from arabic countries, immigrant that french asked for when there was full employment and used from their colonies to liberate France during WW II (look for Montecassino battle for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino were french throw to butchery colonies arabic that were taken away from their village instead of sending french soldiers or other allies).
the problem is not bombs on ISIS, that is already a retaliation. the problem is the waythat french from arabic origins, that are most of the time 3rd generation immigrants, are treated. Those people are pointed for every trouble in france all the time, parked in suburbs with nothing to do, can't find a job just because of their names on a resume, and, at school, with the same grades than a "white" french, are sent on special schools to learn a job instead of finishing regular school (and believe me, as a social worker for the national school system, I see that on a daily basis).
So, France pay the failure of the integration of french from arabic origins, that will go train to ISIS camp and then go back to france to commit attacks. That was the same kind of people last january, and a few years ago with a guy named Mohamed Merah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootings#Profile_of_terrorist).
Hope I was clear enough typing this a little bit quick while cooking for the kids
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Amandistan, generally taking my point was about bearing in mind things like common net writing ethics and forum rules, not to doubt the horrendous crimes that have happened. Although the net allows us free speech I think your quote wasn't maybe too far away of an urge to act (in a way you did) that is criminal in most of countries.
I'm worried the writing here may draw those lunatics attention. After all it's a New Model Army home site.
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It's criminal to say a hate group who kills innocent people deserve to be blown off the face of the earth?
It's not even a threat. NMA wrote a song called Vengeance. It was an emotional response to nazi war criminals. How is this any different? It's a pure emotion fueled response.
II am not a world leader, have no power and know nothing of modern warfare..
I am simply saddened and angry that this has happened.
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Another way of looking at it...
Uneducated folks live in a fuckin' desert and struggle for every scrap of comfort. They have absolutely no idea about the 'real world' (as we would call it), just what the vile bullshit that us lot call 'religion', pumped into their heads, over and over again... and also that evil thing called 'The Western World', all rich and gloating and white and throwing down incinerating bombs that murder families, all in the name of a city called 'Paris', that you've never heard of... but you've seen the corpses and heard the screams and smelled the cooking blood... :'(
So, some powerful people, your Holy Men that you worship, come down and call the western world 'The Devil'. Who wouldn't want to kill The Devil, especially if (a) you're utterly ignorant of world issues, (b) you've seen so much destruction and (c) THE DEVIL IS COMING TO KILL YOU!!!
Plus, you will go to Heaven if you destroy yourself, end your miserable life and relax in Paradise forever...
I'm not, for a single second, excusing what has been done, but let's please look at what's ben put to those poor ignorant people... RELIGION is just an awful thing...
I get what youre saying BUT religion is a great thing. Helping fellow man, beleiving in being a better person. All fantastic ideals. However people kill in the name of religion. People also kill with no religion. Its the person thats at fault.
In the same way Christians and Catholics killed in the name of religion, ISIS do likewise. Because it gives power and power is a great corruptor. If people didnt have religion, it would be something else to kill for.
As for ISIS, someone somewhere is funding this. You dont rally an army and supply it with a beleif. It amuses me that us "Devils" have all the wealth. Really?? So theres no money in the Arab world at all from us buying oil? No billionaire Saudi's or Egyptians?
I think ultimately its a clash of cultures that are miles and miles apart.
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OK... I take back the stuff about religion. Got personal issues with those concepts but I'll put them to one side...
I stand by my ideas that poor ignorant people are being pumped full of utter bullshit to the extent that that subsequently love the idea of death more than life by utterly evil bastards who, surprisingly, don't kill themselves but rest in financial comfort and chortle as their twisted beliefs cause untold suffering... >:(
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Yeah. Im with you there. A lot of the middle East still operates on a tribal level.
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Now they landed two planes from Paris due to bomb threats. The found explosives in a German sporting match.
They need to be dealt with or thousands will die. Like 9/11.
They are ruining the entire world and taking away the human Right to feel safe.
I don't care abouth their religion or how they live or grew up. They need to stop.
People can not be afraid to go to gig, sporting event or a cafe. Nor afraid to fly.
these are not human beings. They are scum.
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OK... I take back the stuff about religion. Got personal issues with those concepts but I'll put them to one side...
I stand by my ideas that poor ignorant people are being pumped full of utter bullshit to the extent that that subsequently love the idea of death more than life by utterly evil bastards who, surprisingly, don't kill themselves but rest in financial comfort and chortle as their twisted beliefs cause untold suffering... >:(
I don't think we should shy away from saying religion is an awful thing if that's what we think. I happen to agree.
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Of course religion isn't a awful thing. I respect your opinion but in my opinion your talking utter nonsense. My oldest daughter is a Mormon and know what I'm very happy for her to life her life that way. Yes she met and fell in love with a guy of that faith and converted and got married. I still love her just as much and I'm proud that she chose that life style. One that promotes healthy living without drugs and alcohol.
Just what the fck is wrong with that, should have told no marry some non religious junkie criminal arsehole instead
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Religion is a huge and complex subject. It will mean different things to different people and it's difficult to express concisely without broad strokes.
To be religious , to choose a life of faith and devotion according to belief is of itself no bad thing. It's what is done in the name of that religion which brings the problems. Interpretations of religion and it's meaning are still being debated in those religions themselves, how else would there still be scholars, seminaries etc....?
Let's be clear here. All three of the major Abrahamic faiths could, if taken literally, exhort believers to kill, maim and expunge from the face of the Earth all non-believers, sinners and assorted devils. People like me would be cast out and consigned to the 99 depth of Hell to burn for all of eternity. Although, interestingly the Ayatollah did issue a decree proclaiming we were all part of gods plan - which was nice ;D. Anyway my point is that calling this an intrinsic problem of Islam is a bad misdirection. It is not. Fundamentalism and extremism exist within church, mosque and synagogue.
Daesh and their affiliates have taken things to whole new level without doubt But nonetheless it is a specific interpretation and viewpoint that takes a religion twists, warps and distorts it to justify it's own desires. By invoking "God" it permits righteousness and superiority. It allows the release of bloodlust, power and barbarity to impose control over others. That's not religion it's depravity and psychosis . Religion is an excuse, a cloak used to dignify the actions of murderers and personally I think we should stop calling it such. Terrorism is Terrorism regardless of the flag it is done under.
Of course. for the innocent people murdered in Paris it doesn't matter what we call it.
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Now they landed two planes from Paris due to bomb threats. The found explosives in a German sporting match.
They need to be dealt with or thousands will die. Like 9/11.
They are ruining the entire world and taking away the human Right to feel safe.
I don't care abouth their religion or how they live or grew up. They need to stop.
People can not be afraid to go to gig, sporting event or a cafe. Nor afraid to fly.
these are not human beings. They are scum.
Tell me more about the two planes FROM Paris that were diverted and also about the explosives found in Hanover please!
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Valstar has raised some great points here. Please believe this is not said with any sense of smugness as the atrocities committed on Friday have completely demoralised me, but France has very complex and deep rooted problems almost unique to France regarding it's Muslim population that go right back to the colonisation of their African colonies in the 19th century and subsequent wars of decolonisation. It is no excuse for what was done but so many French Muslims are completely alienated and disenfranchised. And when those evil scum bags come along and fill young, disenfranchised and angry people with a purpose then you get what happened on Friday. In many ways to me seems little different to what happened in Germany in the 1920s and then 1930s and we all know what happened next. To me radical Islam or National Socialism are little different, just a label for evil people to justify their vile actions.
ISIS and organisations like them need to be stopped and there shouldn't be any complacency about this anymore, but the conditions that allow our own citizens to be turned into monsters need to be changed as well for there to be any chance of lasting progress.
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Now they landed two planes from Paris due to bomb threats. The found explosives in a German sporting match.
I don't know anything about planes but - according to offical statements here in Germany - NO explosives were found in Hanover. There were threats last night, these threats were obviously serious enough to make a last-minute decision to cancel the match. But that's it.
Which is not to say that tere might have been a risk.
And yes, I do agree that something should be done about IS - but I don't believe attacking them is the answer. It hasn't worked all that well in the past, has it? And how could it possibly work - I mean, these people aren't afraid to die. These people thing the one, big, holy war is coming, ending in some sort of Apocalypse. Therefore, by increasing attacks on them, we will just confirm those beliefs and encourage them even more to continue in their sick ways. And we'll probably also drive even more people to join them, for a whole bunch of reasons.
They need to be cut off from supplies, this is what I have read in several places and it makes sense: money, weapons, ammunition.
We need to make sure that (young) people feel safe, feel they have a perspective, are accepted - so they have no reason to listen to the false promises of the IS preachings, let alone fall for them and end up brainwashed.
It is a very complex topic - but I don't think rage and/or fear are the answer.
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The news said two planes from America to Paris were diverted.
They canceled a sporting event due to an ambulance filled with explosives.
The news said that police found it before the match. Today the news says different but yesterday my source was fairly sure explosives were found
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They canceled a sporting event due to an ambulance filled with explosives.
The news said that police found it before the match.
Yes, there were rumours about this ambulance - but they were just that, no-one knows who started them, they made the rounds here in Germany as well but were quickly dispelled.
I can only repeat that, according to German officials (I am from Germany), no explosives have been found, there had been threats of a terrorist attack and it seems they were coming from reliable sources - so I am not implying it was all nonsense, I can't, I don't have that kind of knowledge - so it was decided to cancel the match and search the stadium and the surrounding area thoroughly. But they didn't find anything and things are now back to normal in Hanover. :)
Which is a good thing, of course.
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I am wrong. I read a news article last night that said it was found. then it's been updated that it is not.
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I am wrong. I read a news article last night that said it was found. then it's been updated that it is not.
Just to make that clear: I didn't mean to attack you or anything, I hope you didn't take offense. :)
It's just that there have indeed been so many rumours, not only with regard to that match last night, and as the situation is already consfusing and scary enough as it is I wanted to share the latest news from - that is at least a bit positive.
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If you want to discuss what has happened in france, you should approach it in a criminalistic way. Gathering, researching facts, finding out what has happened. Don't rush to conclusions before you have proof. Question the sources of information, which agenda do they have, have they an agenda. Question things!
To me it is not clear what happened in france. There are different versions of the story, the story is changing and the mainstream narrative is changing constantly. the told story has some logic holes, which i cannot just let be.
i want to tell you, what i make with this incident, how i think about it.
first there's a pattern which connects it to other world(opinion)changing events in the past.
did you know, that there were simulated terror plangames, maneuvers going on on 9/11? including captured airplanes?
did you know there were some terror drills taking place in london on 7/7 2005, including attacks on the tube?
and while the boston bombings also?
so, there was a emergency drill in paris, SAMU Service d’Aide Médicale Urgente, staged taking place in several locations.
damn, those coincidences.
then we have a pettern of finding passports of terrorist, very fast after the incident, so we all know who did it. if it is in the rubble of the twin towers, or next to a disemmebered terrorost in paris, showing he was from syria. very covenient i must say.
we have a pattern of terrorists being surveilled before the incidents or have connections to the secret services. we haver a pattern of police work which just not works.
as i understand it, the paris shootings took also place near to the street of the attack and massacre in january this year. then they take hostages inside a building and start killing people, but it takes 3 hours for the police to react?
the bombings of the suicide killers took only their lives. too stupid to kill?
were ther six or sven or eight or nine people involved? in belgium they stopped a guy who was on the searching list but let him go?
well, these are the questions which go through my mind and to me it seems like another false flag operation of secret services to put fear on all of us and bring us new wars and frightening security laws. and democracy to the barbarians.
false flag? a conspiracy theory? far fetched?
from a list of confirmed false flag attacks:
(1) Japanese troops set off a small explosion on a train track in 1931, and falsely blamed it on China in order to justify an invasion of Manchuria. This is known as the "Mukden Incident" or the "Manchurian Incident". The Tokyo International Military Tribunal found: "Several of the participators in the plan, including Hashimoto [a high-ranking Japanese army officer], have on various occasions admitted their part in the plot and have stated that the object of the 'Incident' was to afford an excuse for the occupation of Manchuria by the Kwantung Army ...." And see this.
(2) A major with the Nazi SS admitted at the Nuremberg trials that - under orders from the chief of the Gestapo - he and some other Nazi operatives faked attacks on their own people and resources which they blamed on the Poles, to justify the invasion of Poland.
(6) The British government admits that - between 1946 and 1948 - it bombed 5 ships carrying Jews attempting to flee the Holocaust to seek safety in Palestine, set up a fake group called "Defenders of Arab Palestine", and then had the psuedo-group falsely claim responsibility for the bombings (and see this, this and this).
( 8 ) The CIA admits that it hired Iranians in the 1950's to pose as Communists and stage bombings in Iran in order to turn the country against its democratically-elected prime minister.
(11) The former Italian Prime Minister, an Italian judge, and the former head of Italian counterintelligence admit that NATO, with the help of the Pentagon and CIA, carried out terror bombings in Italy and other European countries in the 1950s and blamed the communists, in order to rally people's support for their governments in Europe in their fight against communism. As one participant in this formerly-secret program stated: "You had to attack civilians, people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the state to ask for greater security" (and see this) (Italy and other European countries subject to the terror campaign had joined NATO before the bombings occurred). And watch this BBC special. They also allegedly carried out terror attacks in France, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Greece, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, the UK, and other countries
(14) As admitted by the U.S. government, recently declassified documents show that in 1962, the American Joint Chiefs of Staff signed off on a plan to blow up AMERICAN airplanes (using an elaborate plan involving the switching of airplanes), and also to commit terrorist acts on American soil, and then to blame it on the Cubans in order to justify an invasion of Cuba. See the following ABC news report; the official documents; and watch this interview with the former Washington Investigative Producer for ABC's World News Tonight with Peter Jennings.
(17) The NSA admits that it lied about what really happened in the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964 ... manipulating data to make it look like North Vietnamese boats fired on a U.S. ship so as to create a false justification for the Vietnam war.
(21) The German government admitted (and see this) that, in 1978, the German secret service detonated a bomb in the outer wall of a prison and planted "escape tools" on a prisoner - a member of the Red Army Faction - which the secret service wished to frame the bombing on.
(25) The United States Army's 1994 publication Special Forces Foreign Internal Defense Tactics Techniques and Procedures for Special Forces - updated in 2004 - recommends employing terrorists and using false flag operations to destabilize leftist regimes in Latin America. False flag terrorist attacks were carried out in Latin America and other regions as part of the CIA's "Dirty Wars". And see this.
(28) Senior Russian Senior military and intelligence officers admit that the KGB blew up Russian apartment buildings in 1999 and falsely blamed it on Chechens, in order to justify an invasion of Chechnya (and see this report and this discussion).
(30) At the July 2001 G8 Summit in Genoa, Italy, black-clad thugs were videotaped getting out of police cars, and were seen by an Italian MP carrying "iron bars inside the police station". Subsequently, senior police officials in Genoa subsequently admitted that police planted two Molotov cocktails and faked the stabbing of a police officer at the G8 Summit, in order to justify a violent crackdown against protesters.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/42falseflags.php
(yeah, i know some reactions now. but don't blame the source which i linked here. you can research those historical events for yourself.)
"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death".
- Adolph Hitler
"Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
- Hermann Goering, Nazi leader.
"The easiest way to gain control of a population is to carry out acts of terror. [The public] will clamor for such laws if their personal security is threatened".
- Josef Stalin
it think this comes the closest to what terrible thing has happened. and we should beware calling for action. military action.
i also think its very important for many people to start researching these unbelivable and frightening thoughts, to see for themselves and be prepared for more war mongering propaganda and psy-ops(google it)
we're being played.
fear is the only enemy, that i still know....
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I have recently read that Turkey warned France about on the the attackers but they never responded to them.
Al Jazeera was the source. They were warned twice this year. If it's so why would the PM not respond to them. This man was one of the attackers.
@Stephanie Thank you. I was not offended. :)
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I have recently read that Turkey warned France about on the the attackers but they never responded to them.
Al Jazeera was the source. They were warned twice this year. If it's so why would the PM not respond to them. This man was one of the attackers.
@Stephanie Thank you. I was not offended. :)
What was the warning about?
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so, there was a emergency drill in paris, SAMU Service d’Aide Médicale Urgente, staged taking place in several locations.
damn, those coincidences.
then we have a pettern of finding passports of terrorist, very fast after the incident, so we all know who did it. if it is in the rubble of the twin towers, or next to a disemmebered terrorost in paris, showing he was from syria. very covenient i must say.
as i understand it, the paris shootings took also place near to the street of the attack and massacre in january this year. then they take hostages inside a building and start killing people, but it takes 3 hours for the police to react?
the bombings of the suicide killers took only their lives. too stupid to kill?
were ther six or sven or eight or nine people involved? in belgium they stopped a guy who was on the searching list but let him go?
There's MANY point I would discuss in your post but that will be too long, so I want to answer to those specifics.
There was no emergency drill in Paris, from what I've heard from a nurse close friend, they were really surprised and overwhelmed. Can you give your source about this ?
the passport found was at the same time said to be a false one and that it was not a good lead, they give the name photo on every TV since yesterday to ask if someone knew him.
Police didn't took 3 hours to come there, that's completely false. One of the terrorist was shot less than 20 minutes after the attack began in the entrance of the venue. Then, yes, it takes time to organize an assault on a place were there's hundreds of hostages.
Bombers didn't take a lot of lives but still there was, and lots of wounded too. 3 of them exploded during the gunfight with the cops.
They stopped one NEAR Belgium, weren't at all looking for him at the moment, it was just a normal road control. They knew they were looking for this particular guy hours later.
When you say such things, please cite your sources. You can find any of the informations I gave on the website of Le Monde, the most serious french newspaper.
I have recently read that Turkey warned France about on the the attackers but they never responded to them.
Al Jazeera was the source. They were warned twice this year. If it's so why would the PM not respond to them. This man was one of the attackers.
Can you please, too, give us your sources about that ? thanks !
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I have recently read that Turkey warned France about on the the attackers but they never responded to them.
Al Jazeera was the source. They were warned twice this year. If it's so why would the PM not respond to them. This man was one of the attackers.
@Stephanie Thank you. I was not offended. :)
What was the warning about?
The attacker. "Ismaël Omar Mostefaï, a 29-year-old French citizen" "During the official investigation, the Turkish authorities identified a fifth individual, Omar Ismail Mostefai, and notified their French counterparts twice -- in December 2014 and June 2015," "Turkey shared information on Mostefaï with France, but didn't hear anything back -- until after Friday's events."
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as i tried to point out, to me it's not clearly clear what has happened, due to changing mainstream narrativ.
but your question about the sources is a good one.
let's be clear, that all of this just keeps me questioning and i don't want to rush to conclusions.
so this one is about the SAMU:
http://www.challenges.fr/france/20151115.CHA1650/comment-le-samu-s-est-prepare-aux-attentats-simultanes-de-paris.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EHhSw_hwgs
i know that the "found passport news" has now changed to: it must have been a planted one. maybe someone thought, this game is too obvious.
i mean, shouldn't we ask questions about who could and would plant a false passport at a crime scene? who has access? this seems suspicious to me. that was the reason i mentioned it.
as i said, the narrative is changing.
about the late arriving or action of the police i only have ne german source now:
http://www.abendblatt.de/politik/article206575925/Ueberall-war-Blut-ueberall-waren-Leichen.html
in the articel is a quote of an witness: "only after more than two hours the police ended the hostage situation."
here we also have a problem in the narrative. you have to say that it is a hostage situation, to explain the police behaviour of talking to the hostagekeepers and not interferring. if you have massmurder and a shooting, which seems to have taken place, the police has to act. you cannot have mass killings going on over a period of two hours, no one would have understanding for the police.
another article in german says, that "shortly after" the shootings happened, the police arrived.
i'm aware that there are different versions of the story out there. that was one thing i wanted to point out.
this for me are examples of a narrative building during chaotic moments shortly after such incidents. the wording has to be equaled for the narrative to fit.
about the bombers
in this german article by "der spiegel" it says:
two bombers just died because of explosive vests, and the third took one person with him. some experts just wonder how irrational the terrorist acted, for example in front of the football stadium, where they could have killed many people and that all behaviour seems illogical
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/terror-in-frankreich-das-wunder-vom-stade-de-france-a-1063255.html
this quote you won't here again, i bet. sometimes something slips through.
as i said, these different reports raise questions for me, they do not answer things.
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let's be clear, that all of this just keeps me questioning and i don't want to rush to conclusions.
so this one is about the SAMU:
http://www.challenges.fr/france/20151115.CHA1650/comment-le-samu-s-est-prepare-aux-attentats-simultanes-de-paris.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EHhSw_hwgs
i know that the "found passport news" has now changed to: it must have been a planted one. maybe someone thought, this game is too obvious.
i mean, shouldn't we ask questions about who could and would plant a false passport at a crime scene? who has access? this seems suspicious to me. that was the reason i mentioned it.
as i said, the narrative is changing.
about the late arriving or action of the police i only have ne german source now:
http://www.abendblatt.de/politik/article206575925/Ueberall-war-Blut-ueberall-waren-Leichen.html
in the articel is a quote of an witness: "only after more than two hours the police ended the hostage situation."
here we also have a problem in the narrative. you have to say that it is a hostage situation, to explain the police behaviour of talking to the hostagekeepers and not interferring. if you have massmurder and a shooting, which seems to have taken place, the police has to act. you cannot have mass killings going on over a period of two hours, no one would have understanding for the police.
another article in german says, that "shortly after" the shootings happened, the police arrived.
i'm aware that there are different versions of the story out there. that was one thing i wanted to point out.
this for me are examples of a narrative building during chaotic moments shortly after such incidents. the wording has to be equaled for the narrative to fit.
about the bombers
in this german article by "der spiegel" it says:
two bombers just died because of explosive vests, and the third took one person with him. some experts just wonder how irrational the terrorist acted, for example in front of the football stadium, where they could have killed many people and that all behaviour seems illogical
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/terror-in-frankreich-das-wunder-vom-stade-de-france-a-1063255.html
this quote you won't here again, i bet. sometimes something slips through.
as i said, these different reports raise questions for me, they do not answer things.
For the SAMU training, it was hours before the attack, and was long time planned due to the coming of almost all world leaders to a summit in a few weeks in Paris (that's what's explained in the article you mention).
The passport never changed. First time I've heard of it, during Friday night, news said "probably a false passport", again, on Le Monde website and on TV, they were already saying it was supposed to be forgery. Now we know the terrorist used it in Greece a few weeks ago with refugees to enter Europe.
It took more than two hours to end the situation in the Bataclan, true, as I said, you don't just rush were hundreds of hostage are held, but the police secured the neighbourhood just a few minutes after the attack started, killing a terrorist already while doing that. Your witness is just saying that, it took two hours to END the situation, not to arrive on the situation.
Again, when there's a hostage situation you try to discuss with the guys with the guns, and usually, that takes countless hours. There, police tried to contact them, terrorist basically said "we're going to kill everybody" so the police came in and that was it. 2 hours seems a decent time to plan such an attack, you don't just rush in, that would add multiple police death on the already huge casualties. The two articles you mention just say the same thing, they're not contradictory at all.
Narrative isn't changing, some "journalist" say stuff before they verify it, but mostly, the story was always the same on every major newspaper, except perhaps on a few details (it was effectively believed they were 7 attackers, now they say "probably 9", the probably part telling us that they don't really know.
And yes, the ones at the stadium had a strange behaviour that still need explanations, none was given at the time so no narrative problem here for the moment :)
I'm sorry but really, there's no conspiracy theory going on about this, you're taking parts of different stuff to mix them into something that is not at all what happened.
[edit] police rushing into Bataclan without preparation would also probably have been retaliate on hostages. You need to know how many terrorists, where, how many hostages a.s.o.
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I wonder what he did with a passport on the day? Why to carry it with you anymore... Or if he left it visible intentionally as he probably knew the consequences.
Oh, what a huge mess the world has now. Heavily armed soldiers whose main target are helpless civilians not enemy soldiers. :(
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http://www.occupydemocrats.com/this-french-ex-isis-hostage-has-a-vital-message-for-warmongers-bigots/
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http://www.occupydemocrats.com/this-french-ex-isis-hostage-has-a-vital-message-for-warmongers-bigots/
Excellent and interesting link, Marius.
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Here's a very interesting account from the cops point of view, but in french http://abonnes.lemonde.fr/attaques-a-paris/article/2015/11/20/l-assaut-au-bataclan-dans-les-yeux-des-forces-de-l-ordre_4813868_4809495.html
It explains everything, and you'll know almost minute by minute what happened (and yes you'll understand how those things work and why 2 hours is not that much, why they didn't just charge a.s.o. This is clear and don't leave room for conspiracies theory. Try google translation if you don't speak french (but at your own risks ;)).
And yes, the ex-hostage opinion is really interesting Marius !
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Now (as we speak) IS are taking hostages in hotel in Mali. They won't ******* stop. They are forcing us to all fear for our lives. Well Done IS pricks you have now made all cities, public transport, hotels, cafes, bars, venues everywhere unsafe.
Do people still think they should not be blown off the face of the earth?
They have ruined the world for everyone.
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Now (as we speak) IS are taking hostages in hotel in Mali. They won't ******* stop. They are forcing us to all fear for our lives. Well Done IS pricks you have now made all cities, public transport, hotels, cafes, bars, venues everywhere unsafe.
Do people still think they should not be blown off the face of the earth?
They have ruined the world for everyone.
How do you know it's IS in Mali?
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Because who else could it be?
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Because who else could it be?
It could be any number of people! Al Qaeda or affiliates seems more likely according to experts!
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They have ruined the world for everyone.
[/quote]
If you let them. What every decent person can do is live their life and be kind and decent to those they interact with. Don't stop living your life - it's what they want. Every beer, every bit of music you listen to, every laugh you share with a friend is a strike against the narrow minded cnts like ISIS and all the other hate motivated bigots.
**** the lot of them.
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It's not ISIS. Actually it's claimed by another group, who was once Al Qaeda but separate.
Read what the ancient hostage have to say about retaliation on them by the way. I will not say I completely agree but he really make sense.
So don't just assume before having the information :). And the other organisation claimed it, but it can still be wrong, I'll wait before saying something definitive about it :)
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If there's one thing my recent heart attack (yeah, I'm still banging on about THAT ::) ;) )has shown me is that when your numbers up, it's up. I might have died a couple of weeks ago, but I didn't. Could happen anytime, anyplace, anywhere. A school friend of mine died of a brain haemorrhage aged 12. A mates girlfriend died in a car crash aged 19. An ex-girlfriends auntie had a fatal stroke in her late 20's. I'm sure we've all got similar stories. :'(
Never let these c-words dictate your life. You have far more chance of getting killed everytime you get in your car than you have getting murdered by terrorists.
They haven't ruined the world. The worlds a cruel and random place, always was and always will be. It owes you nothing. I say, live in it to the best of your abilities and fook it all when the shit falls down.
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It's Islam shaking it's fist at the world again....which ever way you look at it.
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It's Islam shaking it's fist at the world again....which ever way you look at it.
I think a lot of decent Muslims, the vast majority, would disagree with you. This isn't Islam, it is a minority of murderers who are using Islam as an excuse to butcher and subjugate. And statistics show us it is the Islamic world that suffers the most!
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I second that. I am living in Turkey now. It is made up of mostly Muslims. From what I have observed is that they hate ISIS. They feel that these extremists groups are ruining the reputation of their religion.
They would never think of terrorizing anyone. Since this happened, I have seen so much Anti-islamic hate speech on the internet. Ignorant people labeling all Muslims are terrorist. This attitude is bad in America where certain state governments wish to turn down innocent people running for their lives simply because *Gasp* They are Muslims!
Then Trump does as far as wishing to shut down their place of worship and track all muslims in America.
Give them a break.
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On a "lighter" note...kind of "cult" interview video..."Paris attacks: Landlord of suspects claims he 'didn't know' anything""
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpJzrXA1lYo
The "poor guy" is mocked for days now on the Net...Lots of comedy videos about him and his words available everywhere... ;D
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paris terriblke stuff for sure. but do u have an idea of how many hundreds oru thoiusands civilians die killed by the same terrorist shit all over the world and no one gves a shit? when it hits our countries great scandal talk and security and press for months otherwise somewhere no one goves a shit.
plus for lots of the shit happening our countries are responsible in a direct or indirect manner
check this out for ex
http://www.france24.com/en/20151125-human-error-us-strike-kunduz-hospital-msf-doctors-without-borders
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Master Ray, I thought the post you apologised for earlier on in this thread was pretty much spot on and no apology was needed. By the look of it, we are going to carry on making the same mistakes we've been making for the last 25 years or so. We're going to bomb some poor people. It has solved nothing yet. It has destabilized an entire region, given birth to a medieval death cult and created a massive refugee problem. To persist with the same agenda is the very definition of insanity! On a separate note, does anyone remember the scene in 'Life of Brian' when the rebels were sat around a table trying to come up with a name for their little group to try and differentiate them from the other rebel groups? That's what we have world wide now with a huge number of these Extreme Islamist groups. They aren't a joined up organisation yet and may never be, but they are so close to one another in method and ideology, there is very little difference between them.
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Hey, peter... excellent post. For the record, I wasn't apologising for my dislike of religion, I still stand by it... I personally believe that everything that is REAL in the world will one day be destroyed by something UNREAL, ie the concept of some big sky fairy (in various forms and incarnations, all dating back to days before the concept of science) that one bunch of idiots will use as an excuse to annihilate another bunch of idiots...
But some human beings do need reassurance that their brief life isn't going to end and the people they love so much haven't just disintegrated into the ether. I might not share that belief but I wouldn't begrudge them that comfort. Heck, my Mum still sees 'signs' that her father, my Grandad, is still around... I wouldn't dream of hurting her with a rant about my anti-religion beliefs....
But that's the nice side of religion and you're absolutely right about the rest of it...
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I completely agree with you, Pete. Hope none of my post reflected anything else. When I said that the problem of France wasn't that they were bombing those people but had to do with the way we treated arabic immigration, I wasn't at all saying that revenge was sweet and the bomb deserved. BUT you obviously have to deal with Daesh AND with this youth that have no hope that anything good will come for them.
I don't have a solution out of the hat.
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Hi Valstar, I think that it is important that the different groups responsible are properly identified. I wasn't trying to negate your post, I think it's a good point. I guess in some cases, some of these groups only comprise a couple of people. Interestingly, having used 'Life of Brian' as an example, I remember watching Michael Palin and Graham Chapman at the time of the films release debating with a C of E bishop whether that film was blasphemous or disrespectful to the C of E and Christianity in general. The argument got quite heated, but no one was shot and no bombs were set off.
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Seen the video with Cleese and Palin with the bishop, that worth the time spent watching it :)
[edit] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeKWVuye1YE for the long version of he show, and Cleese about humour and islamism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ULvKtcmWgo