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General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: New Dawn on March 22, 2016, 09:16:48 PM
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Today is a bad day! Very bad. After Paris, France, now Brussels, Belgium, is under invisible siege. I know terroristic suicide bombing happens all over the world but when it comes close to you it always hits much harder. Romantic times are over one could say. I remember taking the Brussels subway in 1998 after doing a stupid job at a record company and heading to the NMA Molenbeek gig that evening not thinking too much. Certainly not watching my back. Doing the same a few months later for the second gig there. And also in 2000 for the Botanique, later on in Paris etc... I always thought this had a certain charm. What could possibly happen except for a gang of young probably second generation immigrants to welcome us with a recital of snowballs when leaving the subway? Not too much. Maybe these youngsters thought it just funny what it actually was. Maybe, in retrospect, it showed their displeasure later to become concrete and much harder than some snow. I'm not sure... But reality is that society has changed. Western culture faces an invisible enemy. Freedom in general and the freedom of going to a concert or cultural event is in danger. We must not give in to fear but it is faster said than done. Maximum security will be the codeword for politicians and we can expect a big political shift to the right here in Belgium. Innocent refugees will be the victim of the infiltration and mingling in their groups by terrorists with false passports. Being unwanted is just another suffering for them. So yes, we all live on an angry planet... The question is who or what's gonna change that?
Cheers
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A sad and angry post, one I agree with. I do like the way you're not blaming ALL immigrants for this horrible scenario, as seems to be the knee-jerk reaction on other websites.
A big political shift to the right? It's definitely coming, all over Europe, we've all seen the proof of that in Germany. I've seen it said that the EU was supposed to stop European countries going to war with each other... yet it might now seem to be starting other kinds of wars (race-related, no doubt) and, ironically, leading to a rise in fascism? Seriously, what awaits the vast majority of immigrants who wish us no harm and just want to make a better life for themselves? No jobs, nowhere for them to stay, no money to keep them fed, a media that incessantly purports them to be the enemy... :'( and I'm pretty sure that will rise to the increase of moderate folks being turned to radicalism, through sheer desperation and non-education alone...
Terrible events like this are gonna keep on coming. No doubt about that. What can we do about it? Absolutely nothing. The EU should have seen this coming years back and put measures into place. The UN don't give a crap, even though this is a WORLD issue.
I just despair and, quite frankly, hate the state of the world right now.
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Didn't know that, A, so thanks for clueing me in on that point.
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Most of problem seems to be people who were born in Europe and who have become radicalized n not asylum seekers.
Of course we all know that the right will use any reason to promote violence and hatred all this does is spiral into a vicious circle of more attacks and more hate. We must of course take justice on those that commit these acts yet try to find a way to stop it happening over and over again
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I don't get it. Maybe it is because some westerners relate more to the people in Belgium?
Yes, I believe that is the very reason. My theory is that there is just way too much going on - if you let all of it get really close you would really go mad in no time at all. So, if anything happens further away (further geographically but also mentality-wise, if that makes sense) then you just don't let it touch you that much - not as a deliberate reaction, it's just what it is. It also doesn't mean that you don't care, it's a bit of self-protection.
Now, if it happens closer to home, this self-protection doesn't really work. Like, for me, it is a relatively short trip to Brussels and a dear friend of mine lives 10 minutes away from the city centre, we visit each other a lot - so this hits home...if you know what I mean.
It's horrible, this series of attacks - and I am as worried as all of you about the political drift to the right. Local elections here in Germany in the past couple of weeks did not come up with a surprising result - we saw that one coming- but it's still so scary. What scares me most is the sheer stupidity of some people who decided to vote for this party out of protest - totally ignorant of what AfD stand for.
But then politicians really aren't doing anything to dispel people's fears, to come up with answers to their many questions. It's pathetic.
My heart goes out to the victims and their families and friends. :'(
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It is quite interesting that radical terrorist muslims have killed so many people in Belgium, yet the posts here seem exclusively to lay into the west, alleged "right wing" takeovers and accusations of racism in Europe.
I think we are putting the horse before the cart. I do not believe vast swathes of us think it is "all" muslims, but it is a religious issue which if you know the history dates back many centuries in another time. Many ISIS fighters quote these "teachings" which are irrelevant to the majority of us living in 2016, but they believe it shockingly.
How about we concentrate on those who perpetrate this kind of thing. Usually muslim, usually young, usually stupid I suspect, easily malleable. And we target them.
I'm not like you, I do not think that we will become facists, certainly not here. Using the left and right template is not correct. People will naturally be worried about people who have other religions, values and ethoses coming in numbers just like they would if it were reversed. That is not racism, but a kosher worry people will have. Yeah of course some right and left wing nutjobs will dictate and get media inches saying bullshit. I suspect someone may quote one to me here, but it does not mean it is widespread.
We discuss the thoughts that we are all going to turn into facists. How about a chat on the issue that being more liberal left in Europe has helped people like these perpetrate the bombing? To me the problem IS this "I'm left wing", "I'm right wing" crap. It is facts we need to look at.
I don't believe like some of you we can do nothing. We can work with middle eastern governments where we can. Try and build bridges with Iran, as they seem pretty important players. Hell who would have thought Iran was a going to be a staple of balance? Cross bridges with Russia, difficult and murky I know. But we are divided on this issue as a world, never mind the platitudes for each atrocity that we are "all as one" in condemnation. We probably at some stage will require the UN to sanction a combined effort to bomb and fight ISIS as this virus is spreading. And yes we need vigilance and border control. And I AM NOT Farage!
There are some things we can think about. Do nothing is not an option, that I'm sure we can all agree on!!! :)
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The UN do give a crap. UNHCR has helped a lot with refugees. I have seen their groundwork first-hand. They do all they can. They can't break various government's laws. They are scaling back assistance due to the new EU deal. They do not support it and feel it is being rushed. They give a massive crap. I admire their work greatly.
This article from UNHCR gives a good insight into what the UN refugee agency are up to and how they are working alongside the Greek authorities and EU representatives on the Islands and Mainland.
http://www.unhcr.org/56f10d049.html
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Is your friend okay Stephanie? I wish her or him the very best. I imagine people are still very frightened there. :'(
Yes, she is, thank you for asking. It seems all her friends and family are accounted for as well. Yes, it feels very awkward for them - but she is coming over tomorrow to spend Easter with us, we're going to have a good time. :)
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Actually the bible, Old Testament is more violent and sick than the Quran. These are not real muslims and muslims are ashamed of them and running from them also. Turkey has many muslims, IS kills more muslims than any other religion.
Bombing IS would mean innocent people would die. Far more than the people who died in Brussels. Already there are far too many killed. Then IS would attack even more. Syria and Iraq have already been harmed enough. Bombing is the last thing they need.
"People will naturally be worried about people who have other religions, values and ethoses coming in numbers just like they would if it were reversed"
Only ignorant people will be worried about that. Anyone who spent any meaningful time around Syrians, Iraqis and Afghanis would say otherwise. They have a beautiful culture and very friendly. It would enhance Europe or anywhere they would settle. I trust them with my life and will stand with them in Solidarity regardless of what happens. It is radicalized westerners that are to fear. Not refugees or economic migrants. Please don't fear them.
I have said before that closing borders does not help anything. It causes horrible despair for fellow human beings.
It is not about politics , It is about compassion and love and the fact that other people are made to feel unwelcome.
Well I will ignore the fact you think I am ignorant. So you personally can answer for ALL Syrians and others as all nice loving people as you said, and of course you personally can tell us it is "radicalised westerners" can you forgetting WHO actually radicalises them. Nice.
So your tactic to end this is apparently according to this post of yours; do not bomb IS, but open every border to let potentially millions of people move into Europe. You clearly have solved where they are to be housed, fed and how our already strained services are going to cope. Anyone who thinks that this geopolitical and cultural shift is dangerous and unworkable to be labelled stupid or a racist.
I assume you think IS will then be happy bedding in in the lands they have vacated and not want to spread their beliefs (as they have already said). And of course the people left behind will be happy to live under extreme sharia and be stoned and beheaded, women sold as sex slaves.
All we need is love you say, not politics. Perhaps IS will start to love us all then. And what about those who wish to practice their own religious zealotry, like female genital mutilation for an example. I assume we must turn a blind eye as we welcome them and their beliefs?
It is an interesting view, but in my view unworkable and fantasy. Sorry! :)
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She has a point, though: those who carried out these attacks WERE people who were born here (in the west) or at least grew up here. Yes, IS did the radicalising (is that a term?) - but of course they found easy targets in those areas where even those who had been brought into the respective countries generations ago are still not accepted, nor are there children and grandchildren, they are discriminated again.
So, educating people is very, very important, all people, ignorance is dangerous - and "love", open-mindedness, plays an important part as well. Outsiders are easy to win over - you see that in every school.
It is a very complex situation, for sure, but at least A. has lived with these people, has been to their countries, has worked hard for and with those refugees.
Generalising never works, of course, in no direction
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I think we can all agree that IS must be defeated, the issue is how much does bombs and bullets really work, there only a very short term answer. The problem is that we may well take out a few of their top men but unless we address the many complex root problems all we are doing is adding fuel to the fire, there dead fighters will soon be replaced with many more angry young men
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I agree very much with what ldopas has written here. I will add to that a daily bewilderment on my behalf how such liberal political outlooks even attempt to defend Islam, a religion of which it should be nothing less than wholeheartedly critical for obvious reasons. Once upon a time the left spared no rod when it came to criticism of religion…and rightly so.
Islam, without a doubt, is the most toxic religion. The Koran’s promotion of death for apostates, something missing from other religions, is one of the most offensive ‘truths’ I have personally ever encountered. It is nothing short of repulsive that you, as an individual, are not allowed to exercise your own free will and think for yourself.
A religion in which God (Allah) supposedly spoke through the angel Gabriel to some illiterate paedophile, warlord called Mohammed who faithfully ‘wrote’ it all down and became ‘the only true prophet’ of God? Spare me the badly conceived moral lesson here. Then to top it all off, Islam makes one particular claim for itself which subsequently justifies further violence, intolerance and persecution of non-believers: it is, of course, that it is the last word ever on the subject of God. Therefore, its principles cannot and should not be questioned...by anyone.
However, what makes the ‘faith’ even more spectacularly absurd is a certain 18th Century ‘addition’ to Sunni Islam known as Wahhabism, a radical puritan Islam which is the traditional backbone of the current House of al-Saud and one of the key sources of Islamic fundamentalism. It is, however, not without foundation – its origins rest with ‘the prophet’ himself, and the desire to turn to the original teachings, since the old Ottoman Empire of its time wasn’t particularly good at Islam. Well, at least according to many of the Arab nationalists agitating Istanbul.
Rather than being blind and attempting to frame flawed Western policies for the rise of radical Islam, perhaps we could examine the Koran, the Hadith and Wahhabism for what they really are.
Perhaps we could start to understand what and who really drives ISIL, al-Qaeda, Boko Harem, al-Shabaab, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad etc… ad nauseam.
Perhaps the next time we blame the West for sowing the seeds of Islamic fundamentalism we could remind ourselves that the same West stood up to Serbia only a generation ago to protect Bosnian Muslims and Albanians, with NATO eventually bombing Serbia itself. The same West also pushed the agenda for creating Kosovo, a state not even widely recognised, at Serbia’s expense. A free man does not walk Karadzic.
I, for one, am never going to respect the ‘prophet’. I am, however, going to place much of the blame for ‘radical Islam’ at his feet, at the Koran itself and his musings in the Hadith. I am also going to frame Saudi Wahhabism in furthering it.
Mohammed’s revolting behaviour towards the Jewish tribes of Medina still serves as a current blueprint for groups like ISIL in their dealings with Yazidis, Christians and a ‘justification’ for anti-Jewish sentiments, something widespread throughout the Islamic world where Holocaust Denial is a way of life to both Sunni and Shia. Despite protestations to the contrary, ISIL’s behaviour owes much to the prophet. They know it, and so too do their critics.
The sooner we realise what Islam really is and the role the prophet and Saudi Arabia play in much of this abhorrent world terrorism network, the better. However, if we in the West simply want to fool ourselves that it is a storm in a teacup and will blow over, then what can we really expect?
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Strong words Amanda and I get it, I've got to say I was disgusted by the attacks in Paris and Brussels and I know they have been many others but they seem to have hit home from here safe and warm on the big chair. Straight after Paris I would have helped wipe them out myself. Vengeance and hate make us almost as low as them and I say almost the western world aren't deliberately killing innocents yes many get caught in the cross fire. Its impossible to negotiate with people who aren't making any demands. Got to ask you Amanda how would you feel if Isis hit your home town or a gig where your favourite band were playing.
Yes I'm angry and a big part of me wants them wiped out yet I realise this can only be achieved with tolerance
Amanda who should have said Europeans and Americans and a good few other countries to be fair
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Actually the bible, Old Testament is more violent and sick than the Quran.
Purely out of interest and for the sake of informed discussion, could you please quantify that?
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Personally I would rather not go to Belgium again.
**** the attention seekers.
And those who dine off of it.
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It is true that a lot of Westerners do not watch with the same eye when attacks happen in for instance Turkey than when they happen in Belgium. It should not be. Probably it is the shock that suicide bombing has found Western Europe again and has occured for the first time in this country. I agree people react more upon the facts when it relates geographically and mentality-wise to their own world. Brussels is a European capital and lots of expats are under the victims. So westerners will relate to this much easier. I think Western Europeans will also react more to assaults in Istanbul and Ankara than to bombing at the eastern borders of Turkey which had a longer history of incidents and is simply much further away. But I don't think we should compare too much. Obviously there is a limit to what people want to take in on bad events.
She has a point, though: those who carried out these attacks WERE people who were born here (in the west) or at least grew up here. Yes, IS did the radicalising (is that a term?) - but of course they found easy targets in those areas where even those who had been brought into the respective countries generations ago are still not accepted, nor are there children and grandchildren, they are discriminated again.
So, educating people is very, very important, all people, ignorance is dangerous - and "love", open-mindedness, plays an important part as well. Outsiders are easy to win over - you see that in every school.
It's a fact that the Belgian and Brussel government has long time ignored the situation in the Brussels boroughs. Now they are pointed at it big time with the world watching closely. Still there is a minimalisation of the problem. When the Brussels culprit of the Paris terror was arrested a couple of days ago a lot (some say 100 to 200? I wasn't there) of young Belgians with foreign roots were gathered there and threw bottles and things at the police not wanting the cops to arrest the terrorist who they sympathised with. This (negative) signal was largely ignored or minimalised by national television journals. It just shows there is still a lot of dissatisfaction under the young local inhabitants who descend from the immigrants but were all born in Brussels. Among similar kids ten-fifteen years ago grew a lot of guys who choose to fight in Syria and later returned or will return as a terrorist. Many among them did not get out of the negative spiral, which often begins with provocation on both sides, and were radicalised easy with the now known consequences. The liberal prime minister reacts by emphasising unity. The partyleader of the right oriented NVA and Antwerp mayor reacts furiously. He will sweep when he can. But his euphoria was misplaced when the forces catched the so called public enemy n°1. After the latest facts his NVA minister of Interior and Security now has given resignation (not accepted) for making crucial faults in not treating adequately Turkish information on one of the suicide terrorists. This guy was sent back from Turkey to... Holland instead of Belgium and then he vanished so this will cause political trouble with the Dutch also. It is certain that the treatment of important policial information in Belgium was way too slow. Countries need to work together better in fighting the terror. Although reasons for the choices of future jihadists are not always religious but sometimes of a plain criminal nature (my opinion), it's true education and open-mindedness can play an important role in them feeling accepted. Just a simple example, one of Belgium's best reporters decided to stay in Molenbeek for a couple of months after the Paris events and filmed where he was able too, where he was allowed or simply where it was appropriate. His main aim was just achieving comprehension of each other, so he filmed in the mosque, followed and talked a lot with inhabitants like young muslims, a hallal butcher, a mechanic, the police chief, the imam, the mayor and former mayor. All angles were covered. This documentary was watched weekly by around one million of Belgians. He got a pub owner who was convicted for racism so far he would attend the islamic mass and enter the mosque for the first time in his life. Only such constructive initiatives can break down the walls of ignorance, the not comprehending the 'other', the lack of mutual respect and the discrimination. But we've got a long way to go...
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I never once said the attacks were okay. I expressed my disgust, I simply don't agree with bombing Syria as innocent people die. I am very saddened and sorry this happened and would be if it hit my home town or gig as well.
I simply expressed by objection to bombing Syria and killing thousands of innocent people. More deaths do nothing to help anything. I do not get the logic of taking thousands of lives in revenge. It is innocent people who will die not just ISIL.
Whatever your view is on Islam Pumpkin, the truth is that far more many Muslims are killed by terror groups than any other religion or lack or religion. I have no proof of anything but have muslim friends who feel guilty for this but have done nothing wrong at all. Refugee kids are holding signs up to say sorry but have done nothing wrong. This is why we can not blame an entire religion. They should not have the guilt.
I have spent a lot of Turkey and love Turkey. I spent a lot of time around people fleeing war and also love their culture. It is all close to home for me. Sorry if i can not care about one more than another.
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Whatever your view is on Islam Pumpkin, the truth is that far more many Muslims are killed by terror groups than any other religion or lack or religion. I have no proof of anything but have muslim friends who feel guilty for this but have done nothing wrong at all. Refugee kids are holding signs up to say sorry but have done nothing wrong. This is why we can not blame an entire religion. They should not have the guilt.
What I asked you to quantify was your comment concerning the Old Testament and the Koran.
That Muslims are prime victims of their own bitter sectarian hatred surprises me not in the slightest - even in 'secular' Turkey which is killing Kurds and vice versa. Erdogan would rather support ISIL through the backdoor, rather than grant statehood to the best anti-ISIL fighters - the Kurds. Shia Iran does likewise.
The point being that violence and murder is vindicated in the Koran and by Mohammed himself towards anyone who does not follow the teachings of Allah, as interpreted by Mohammed and, increasingly, Wahhabism Sunni Islam. The bitter, often vicious, sectarian conflict between Sunni and Shia proves this. Enter the country which claims to have a religious and moral monopoly on Mohammed (Saudi Arabia) and is the biggest supporter of Islamist terror and you have... Well, you have a disgusting level of silence from the West about where to start pointing the finger - if nothing else.
With all the beautiful aspects of this lovely religion of peace, we should all be getting ready for the 'nirvana' it will bring us all.
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http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/violence-more-common-in-bible-than-quran-text-analysis-reveals-a6863381.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/violence-more-common-in-bible-than-quran-text-analysis-reveals-a6863381.html)
Here is one of many sources. Even the new testament has more references of violence and killing. Not that it matters as it is the same god with a different name. Actually it is against Islam to kill innocent people. Even at times of war, they have certain standards.
There are 1 and a half billion muslims on earth, if they were all as you described then we would all be dead already.
The Sunni and Shia conflict is actually more political than religious. It is about territory as is the Turkish war on the Kurds. I think you are getting politics mixed up with religion.
I am not hear to defend a religion and can not believe that I even have to type this here.These views by so many people make muslims feel unwelcome and that is not okay.
"The muslims are prime victims of their own bitter sectarian hatred surprises me not in the slightest"
What a hatful comment. It is not their hatred. The people killed were innocent. The people bombed in Syria did nothing wrong but live. The people killed and hurt in Turkey did nothing wrong. They do not deserve this. I don't even want to discuss anymore. The muslims I know would never say this about Brussels or Paris. Even after being bombed post-Paris attacks.
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Personally I would rather not go to Belgium again.
**** the attention seekers.
And those who dine off of it.
If you avoid Belgium due to them, then they have won.
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Personally I would rather not go to Belgium again.
**** the attention seekers.
And those who dine off of it.
If you avoid Belgium due to them, then they have won.
I live in Belgium. I don't feel unsafe. I personally would not change my ways. It can happen anywhere. Anytime. It's a new reality...
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I have a long-standing, healthy scepticism about religion. I see all religions as fundamentally wrong in the simple way they prioritise faith over reason. I have little time for the Bible either. Criticism of Christianity is long-standing and secularism is much more secure in the West. The same needs to be done with Islam. We must be able to question it; we must be able to criticise it. We fought long and hard in Europe to get the grip of the Vatican out of everyday life and I, with many others, do not want to lose such secularism to an even worse alternative.
Actually it is against Islam to kill innocent people. Even at times of war, they have certain standards.
There are 1 and a half billion muslims on earth, if they were all as you described then we would all be dead already.
What I do find unusual is that you would use a source to justify your claim on the Old Testament in which the author of the research describes his own work in the following manner: "I must also reemphasize that this analysis is superficial and the findings are by no means intended to be conclusive.”
Have you read the Bible and the Koran yourself, Amandistan?
Why does the Koran and Hadith state the following then?
* Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
* Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
* Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
* If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
* Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
* No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).
So, does ISIL and its various off-shoots really have nothing to do with this muck? When Boko Harem razes a Christian neighbourhood to the ground in Nigeria, does it have nothing to do with Mohammed’s teachings? When Sunni and Shia clerics preach open hatred towards Jews, is it unfounded in the holy books? When Palestinian telly programmes for children talk about Jews as pigs, is it all unrelated? When ISIL cleave the heads off of Yazidi and Kurdish men and rape their women and use them as slaves, does it not have justification in the Koran and Hadith? Take particular note of the last point from al-Bukhari 1:3:111.
I’m not describing all Muslims: I’m talking about the faith of Islam (submission). There is a difference. I have worked in Turkey and Saudi Arabia and I have also been in Iran, UAE and Oman. I have met individual Muslims who are fine: it is the faith that disgusts me. I know many who are also disgusted by it, but simply cannot open their mouths on the subject. The penalties are obvious for such behaviour.
The Sunni and Shia conflict is actually more political than religious. It is about territory as is the Turkish war on the Kurds. I think you are getting politics mixed up with religion.
Actually, it isn’t. It is a deep theological split on the grounds of doctrine, ritual, laws and even religious organisation. The Sunni-Shia sectarian split in Saudi Arabia and Iraq and beyond is vicious. The fault line is Iraq. Neither Iraq, nor Shia Iran nor ‘secular’ Turkey want to grant one grain of sand to the Kurds, themselves an ethnically diverse group with many religions.
"The muslims are prime victims of their own bitter sectarian hatred surprises me not in the slightest"
What a hatful comment. It is not their hatred. The people killed were innocent. The people bombed in Syria did nothing wrong but live. The people killed and hurt in Turkey did nothing wrong. They do not deserve this. I don't even want to discuss anymore. The muslims I know would never say this about Brussels or Paris. Even after being bombed post-Paris attacks.
You are misquoting and clearly misinterpreting what I'm saying here. The fact that such a bitter split exists in Islam and is driven by fanatical hatred of opposing schools, one claiming to be more pure to Mohammed’s interpretation and sayings than another, would guarantee that the ‘infidels’ within Islam would be amongst the first victims. The Koran clearly advocates dislike for Jews and Christians, so that conflict hardly surprises me either.
I simply do not want to live under the absurdity of Islamic doctrine. In fact, I sympathise with anyone forced to live under it, especially those who clearly would rather be apostates. No wonder then that Islam sanctions the killing of such people:
'They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper.' (Koran 4:89)
'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.' (Bukari 84:57)
Everyone should read the Koran and the Hadith. Combined with an understanding of Wahhabism, you really will get the picture behind Islamic terrorism and the role played by the House of al-Saud.
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I can agree with what you say Pumpkin, and we have covered religion here on several topics before, most of us not having good things to say about it in general. Personally I find it amazing that religions are doing so well , some still growing in the more enlightened world that with live in today where there is more opportunity for people to learn, and decide for themselves.
Its worth remembering in the dark history of the last century tens of millions of people were killed, enslaved, victims of genocide, false imprisonment, starved, etc in the name of Communism - the supposedly anti religion philosophy. Religion is not to blame, it is only used as an excuse. Personally yes, I would love to see an end to all religions despite the good they can do and comfort they can bring. But if so, I am sure we would have just as much conflict in the world justified by other means.
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Can`t say it in my own words, but I agree with Pumpkin
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I have read the bible as I went to Catholic school as was forced to read the whole sickening thing.
I have not read the entire Quran but was educated by actual muslims at the refugee housing centre. The religion they speak of does not allow terrorism or killing of innocent people. It was hijacked by IS and other terror groups.
I have no ammo to debate this. I just want the best for my refugee friends. I take it personal as the idea of them suffering or being made to feel more unwelcome breaks my heart. I really love their culture and what they shared with me. All I know i that the wonderful people I met there and in Turkey enhanced my life. I do not care what they believe.
I refrain from debating anymore or defending anyone. I am too saddened by everything to make sense.
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I have not read the entire Quran but was educated by actual muslims at the refugee housing centre. The religion they speak of does not allow terrorism or killing of innocent people. It was hijacked by IS and other terror groups.
Then these people are simply not following the Koran and the Hadith, both of which clearly provide 'scriptures' not only to support this behaviour, but also encourage it further from its followers. Every single Islamic terrorist group uses such Koranic and Hadith 'treasures' to justify their sickening behaviour.
Terrorism and killing of innocent people has not been 'hijacked' by ISIL and a plethora of Islamic terrorist groups from some supposed peaceful notion of Islam, when an innocent Mohammed stood naked in the Garden of Eden gently advising Adam and Eve not to be tempted by a 'Jewish' or 'Christian' snake. Islam has a long history of violence; Mohammed's visions have not been corrupted by such groups. Terrorism and the killing of innocent people exist in the Koran and the Hadith and such behaviour has been justified by Mohammed and numerous clerics and scholars over the centuries right up to the present time.
Enlighten yourself by reading the Koran and the Hadith...for yourself. I'm sure you'll draw the same conclusion you did about the Bible.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-yt6KkXwlU
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Probably A because its not new News in the middle East. I think everyone with half a brain is aware of the mess that is over there. It is new News here. And besides. What better way to keep people living in fear.
The world is doing what it can to tackle Isis.....but its only a brief moment in time before the next variant springs up.
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IRA attacks in England? Remember them? I certainly do. Bins and toilets removed from London bridge station.
Maybe British intelligence is more on the ball and the rest of the world needs a COBRA?
London next anyone?
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It is quite obvious people are aware. However it is not okay to write this off as "Common" or "It is okay because it always happens in the middle east.". This is lessening the value of their lives and is sick.People should be furious this happens to people everywhere and there should be no favoritism by the media.
Whatever, I give up on getting anyone to try and see a different point of view.
No thats quite correct. Actually the only people lessening peoples live are the ones doing the killings. Im fairly sure however in regards to the media they sell stories. What happens in France or Belgium is much closer to my doorstep. I understand your anger, youre living it. As I said we already know whats happening out there. Belgium is new.
Just out of curiosity, have you had any understanding of the media's take on either issue in the Middle East? Genuine question, no trip ups .
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Yes mate. Just trying to understand if it gets more press in the region.
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Ok. I think that kinda suggests that news is "local" then. So there is some coverage, and the local issue may be why its not as covered here. In the same way, african, russian, american, australian or wherever doesnt get that coverage either.
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"News" registers with us on several different factors.
How big the incident/accident n sadly how big the death toll is. The locality of the incident. How unusual it is, the people involved sadly again children being involved is going to hit home harder. I'm sure we can all think of many situations. In the last week or so there have been a few deaths in the Glasgow and Ayrshire area that many won't have heard of n the same goes for your area
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_values
Meaningfulness: This relates to the sense of identification the audience has with the topic. "Cultural proximity" is a factor here—stories concerned with people who speak the same language, look the same, and share the same preoccupations as the audience receive more coverage than those concerned with people who speak different languages, look different and have different preoccupations.
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Regarding concerns that such terror attacks don’t actually get much publicity in Western media, try the following events just since the attacks in Brussels:
Foua, Syria: Ahrar al-Sham kills 2; injures 3
Glasgow, Scotland: Ahmadi Muslim killed by another Muslim for wishing Christians a Happy Easter.
Iskandariya, Iraq: Fedayeen (“those who sacrifice themselves”) suicide bomber kills 41; injures 105.
Adem, Yemen: al-Qaeda kills 25; injures 14
Tumpun, Nigera: Boko Harem kills 4.
Lahore, Pakistan: Taliban off-shoot kills 72; injures 300.
What we don’t hear too much about is who is really behind such groups in terms of funding, weapons and ideological support (although it is overly obvious it is our so-called ‘ally’ Saudi Arabia), and why such attacks happen and to whom.
Could it just be that Christians have been a particular target over the Easter weekend?
As for the idle talk that ISIL’s advances cannot really be countered, perhaps we need to take a look at how Putin has changed the game in Syria with action – not talk.
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Because Putin is a prick. He has hit mostly civilian targets and is fighting for Assad, not against IS.
Russia is fighting for Assad, and part of that includes fighting against ISIL. There are roughly 2,500 Muslims with Russian passports in ISIL. Putin would be quite glad to leave them for dead on the ground in Syria.
From September 2014, the US-led coalition's bombing campaign against ISIL has been ineffective. As a result, Putin and al-Assad agreed to use Russian military strikes against ISIL targets. If they aren't having such success against ISIL, why has it changed the playing field significantly in such a short space of time? The Kurds, probably the best anti-ISIL troops on the ground, fully support Russian air strikes against ISIL.
ISIL and al-Nusra Front have already called for Russian troops and civilians to be killed, as a direct consequence of Putin's offensive against them. ISIL and the Muslim Brotherhood of Syria have already called for jihad against Russia.
Fanatical Muslim clerics scream they want to crucify Russia for this in much the same way as what happened in Afghanistan a generation ago.
The difference is that Putin is not to be fecked with, and he has pulled a rabbit out of the hat in what is often described a 'stalemate'.
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I was not taking about terrorism.
I was referring to the innocent killed and the people who fled from their homes due to Assad and Putin. Most of his targets are not IS or the Muslim brotherhood. They are innocent people.
It is not muslims vs us. We need to stand in solidarity with all being effected by this. The majority happen to be muslims.
I know exactly what you were referring to.
The reality, however, is that ISIL and their various ilk have been dealt quite a blow by Russian air strikes, despite the inept attempts to do likewise by the US-led coalition. Putin will not sit still with an ISIL-type regime near Russia's borders, one which is willing to spew such nonsense into southern Russia itself and inflame Chechnya again. I don't blame him for getting active.
For what it's worth, I'm not really in favour of a more secular al-Assad being toppled. The Arab Spring has largely proven to be a disaster - the only real winners are Islamic fundamentalists stirring up more shite with Saudi money and support.
It's interesting that a secular country like Turkey doesn't seem to realise that they're next on the fundamentalist hit-list should Syria fall to the likes of ISIL. Not an enviable position and one which Erdogan might want to wake up to sooner rather than later.
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Indeed I did.
The problem is religion here. The problem is such terrorism feeds off the holy books themselves. The problem is that, to the people that act out such literal interpretations, they are justified in doing so and can find verse to do so rather easily. That is the reality.
We wouldn't even be discussing Brussels, Paris, Syria, Saudi, Pakistan, Nigeria etc...etc... otherwise.
(http://www.millennialinflux.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Screen-Shot-2015-02-24-at-1.24.22-PM.png)
Can you not see the link with religious motivation here?
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The Institute for Economics and Peace. It is from one of their publications - Global Terrorism Index.
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(http://www.millennialinflux.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Screen-Shot-2015-02-24-at-1.24.22-PM.png)
no idea if this graph is true, don't give a shit either OR have any interest in debating this further on here; but whoever wrote it can't even spell 'religious' right, which doesn't inspire much confidence in its authenticity/reliability
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(http://www.millennialinflux.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Screen-Shot-2015-02-24-at-1.24.22-PM.png)
no idea if this graph is true, don't give a shit either OR have any interest in debating this further on here; but whoever wrote it can't even spell 'religious' right, which doesn't inspire much confidence in its authenticity/reliability
Haha!
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Well-spotted on “relgious” which is certainly an example of a poor editing job. I'd still reserve any judgement(s) of any publication until a thorough reading beforehand.
Right -wing propaganda
Any examples?
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You were asked to comment on a publication, Amandistan, one which I don't think you've actually read. The same applies to the Koran and the Hadith?
(By the way, criticism of religion is actually an inherent left-wing pursuit.)
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I think blaming islam or any other religion doesn't work.If it wasn't islam it would be another reason for people to fight.I'm not here to defend islam or religions.Actually it is a war for territory and power.And it comes to money at the end.It is not the only religion matters.They only use it to have supporters especially among the young people in middle east.Because middle east culture is very suitable to make them gather round.
I have no religious beliefs.Grown up in a muslim country but it doesn't make a sense to me personally.But looking around and see millions of muslims on their on own and just praying and living peacefully. And many are not of course.They have nothing to do with other peoples beliefs or who they are..Yes,islam is corrupted but what I mean is,it is not the only subject causing or spreading terrorism.IS is selling oil and everyone knows this.
Look,there is this thing called IS,it is there,based on Rakka,Syria and now it is considered as the most dangerous and barbaric terrorist act in whole world.So why such powered western world can not defeat or finish it? I don't think it is too complicated.Everyone has an agenda in my opinion.Last 6 months we had 4 big suicide bombings here in Türkiye and hundreds of innocent people died.Same as for Europe now
and before going out,leaving home for work or anything,you think to your self where should I walk? Which street is safe? Nowhere is safe.And western governments are two faced.In domestic,to their own citizens they offer and give free speech,basic human rights,democracy but in foreign policies a lot of things we know and we do not know.Who supports who? I don't know.What is the source of these weapons used in middle east? Anyone could tell an idea.I have a lot of questions in mind without answers.Before war Syria was a police state and now we don't know what it is going to be like in the future.But it is clear that Esad won't go away.And all those security meetings made in EU,UN or U.S are returning us with another suicide bomb close to my or your street.Reason is not the only islam itself.
Nationalism,racism,oil,territory,power..Anything could be.
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Black Eagle....much respect for that post. Religion is fine if you follow one and equally its the individual that chooses an interpretation and how to act on it. All governments have agendas and lie or shroud policies. East or West. Youre right. The world could wipe out IS. But the West doesnt want to prop up Assad or escalate things with Soldiers on the ground, because thats brings more criticism.
A.....Im sorry. I find the "Its all the West's fault" complete nonsense. The "west" has only acted when there has been a threat to it. Otherwise we'd go into Egypt, Saudi and any other country. But there is no direct threat. Equally they dont murder their own on a whim. Incidentally, the middle east is also acting against IS, who co-incidentally are from the Middle East. If they were from Oregon, Im confident America would go for them too
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;D. Theres only one way of reading cos the West has made such a mess.....(Im teasing!)
I disagree about oil. I think thats an easy blame. Otherwise they coulda gone for Saddam after Kuwait. I do beleive its solely down to threat and instability. I dont beleive thats the root cause. ISIL i beleive have got funding from within Iraq. Weapons from the defeated army, money from Iraq banks
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Between you and Idopas, I give up with trying to get you to see a different side. I will never agree with either of you.
Fine, that is what a debate is people have contra views. And it is ldopas, as in L-DOPAMINE. Thanks.
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Because the west has made such a mess in the middle east.
No mention of the Russians on the other side bombing to keep their tyrant Assad in place then. Geopolitics is much more complex than just pointing a finger at the west.
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Next one - Don`t let me be misunderstood
Nina, not Eric
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckv6-yhnIY
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I think blaming islam or any other religion doesn't work.If it wasn't islam it would be another reason for people to fight....Reason is not the only islam itself. Nationalism,racism,oil,territory,power..Anything could be.
Of course, there are many other reasons to fight, but the problem with ISIL and Brussels and Paris and Turkey and Afghanistan and Iraq and Iran and Saudi Arabia etc… etc.. is that such events are clearly inspired by Islam. To add fuel to the mix, there’s also Islamic sectarianism. I don’t think there is any doubt whatsoever about that. It may not be the only variable, but it is unquestioningly the strongest one.
If you are from Turkey, you know all about Ataturk’s wisdom behind secularism and his outright rejection of Islam as a political movement. You also know about his views about what he deemed the ‘immoral Arab’ and that Islam was a religion of the Arabs. Ataturk clearly saw greater value in secularisation and westernisation not the ideas of Islam.
Turkey emerged from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire as a successful state, simply because of Ataturk and the fact he ensured secularisation. Unfortunately, this luxury hasn’t been afforded to many of the Arab states or beyond. This is why it is a problem and why Islamic fundamentalism thrives there and beyond.
We must be able to question and criticise the man and the religion. The problem is that doing so is forbidden in Islam and the penalties for doing so are severe.
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Because the west has made such a mess in the middle east.
Far too simplistic. Who can you blame for the sectarianism? Who can you blame for the stoning of women?
Where did ISIL get there weapons from?
The answer is obvious.
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Pumpkin..
I agree with every single word you wrote.I really don't like to change the subject to my own country's history or problems and I'm sorry everyone if Im doing this but this has a connection also I believe.Ataturk's vision was far more beyond the future and in his all speeches,in all words,books written by him you can still see it in today.Many people disagree with me about him especially the people whom I know,some of my friends and some people call themselves liberal or socialist.I come from a military family and I am very well taught about him and our close history.He wasn't kind of a fascist dictatorial army officer or commander.And I never took him as a god/hero figure.He had to be tough in 1920's heavy conditions.He knew what was going to happen next because he knew what kind of things islamists could do.He didn't get wrong..All happened.After him 1940's,50,60,70s we made terrible mistakes (and big part was by knowing)in the control of our right-wing governments and shot ourselves in foot and reached today.
It is a very long case but his vision on islam was also right.Never used his power to end islam.But he was aware of our roots.So separating islam from government works and being a laic republic was right and ideal model in my opinion.
I really think that we turks couldn't have made a peace with islam.We couldn't have accepted it.Even today in our daily lives there are many things can be seen remained from our shamanic middle asia culture.This is what I think.We were forced to accept it by blood and sword.I never ever believe that those turkic tribals changed their beliefs by their will.We lost the battles and its gone..
What I tried to mean by saying islam is not the only subject is;there are huge amount of muslim people who really don't give credit to these psychos.I know that it is the biggest motivation is islam for terror organisation to take them on their side..And saying all mess made by west is wrong.But I don't believe that west acted only when there is a threat.There were many times west acted without threats.Dont think that Im kinda saying all evil came from west.Im really not sure even if this is a west-east trouble.Im not foreign affairs or security expert but only thing I know is we will have harder times in future Im afraid.Unfortunately feeling very pessimistic about that.
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Greek genocide?? This has never happened
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Despite the existence of a good deal of research about terrorism, there’s a gap between the common understanding of what leads terrorists to kill and what many experts believe to be true.
Terrorist groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda are widely seen as being motivated by their radical theology. But according to Robert Pape, a political scientist at the University of Chicago and founder of the Chicago Project on Security and Terrorism, this view is too simplistic. Pape knows his subject; he and his colleagues have studied every suicide attack in the world since 1980, evaluating over 4,600 in all.
He says that religious fervor is not a motive unto itself. Rather, it serves as a tool for recruitment and a potent means of getting people to overcome their fear of death and natural aversion to killing innocents. “Very often, suicide attackers realize they have instincts for self-preservation that they have to overcome,” and religious beliefs are often part of that process, said Pape in an appearance on my radio show, Politics and Reality Radio, last week. But, Pape adds, there have been “many hundreds of secular suicide attackers,” which suggests that radical theology alone doesn’t explain terrorist attacks. From 1980 until about 2003, the “world leader” in suicide attacks was the Tamil Tigers, a secular Marxist nationalist group in Sri Lanka.
According to Pape’s research, underlying the outward expressions of religious fervor, ISIS’s goals, like those of most terrorist groups, are distinctly earthly:
What 95 percent of all suicide attacks have in common, since 1980, is not religion, but a specific strategic motivation to respond to a military intervention, often specifically a military occupation, of territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly. From Lebanon and the West Bank in the 80s and 90s, to Iraq and Afghanistan, and up through the Paris suicide attacks we’ve just experienced in the last days, military intervention—and specifically when the military intervention is occupying territory—that’s what prompts suicide terrorism more than anything else.
.....
http://www.thenation.com/article/heres-what-a-man-who-studied-every-suicide-attack-in-the-world-says-about-isiss-motives/
Meanwhile, Pope Francis has spoken out against the role of the weapons industry in Tuesday’s deadly attack on Brussels. The pope spoke during pre-Easter rituals north of Rome on Thursday.
Pope Francis: "Muslims, Hindus, Catholics, Copts, Evangelists, but brothers, children of the same god, who want to live in peace, integrated. Three days ago, there was a gesture of war, of destruction, in a city of Europe from people who don’t want to live in peace. Behind that gesture there were arms manufacturers, the arms traffickers who want blood, not peace, who want war, not brotherhood."
http://www.democracynow.org/2016/3/25/headlines/pope_francis_points_at_weapons_industry_behind_brussels_attack
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Pumpkin..
I agree with every single word you wrote...[Ataturk] had to be tough in 1920's heavy conditions.He knew what was going to happen next because he knew what kind of things islamists could do.He didn't get wrong...It is a very long case but his vision on islam was also right.Never used his power to end islam.But he was aware of our roots.So separating islam from government works and being a laic republic was right and ideal model in my opinion.
I really think that we turks couldn't have made a peace with islam...I know that it is the biggest motivation is islam for terror organisation to take them on their side..And saying all mess made by west is wrong.But I don't believe that west acted only when there is a threat.There were many times west acted without threats...but only thing I know is we will have harder times in future Im afraid.Unfortunately feeling very pessimistic about that.
Black Eagle Rising,
Thanks very much for your reply. I completely agree with you, too. Having worked in Erzurum, Ankara and Malatya, you can clearly see evidence of this, especially when compared to Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Ataturk's vision of Islam was correct - that it should be held in check by a strong government. The secularism you enjoy in Turkey is something that the Persians next door in Iran would love to return to, especially since The Ayatollah has returned the country to The Stone Age after previous attempts at secularisation under The Shah. Secularism generally works better in non-Arabic states, especially in ones which were former empires (Ottoman, Persian). I don't think the Arabs, as a majority, will embrace such a concept though. The spread of Islamic fundamentalism has also forced existing secular regimes to become more authoritarian in a response to protect secularism. Would you agree that this is what Erdogan might be up to?
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The recent bombings in Turkey were not even about religion. It is political.
Yes, where the PKK is concerned, it is. However, ISIL and their various ilk have no time for a secular Turkey as their neighbour or otherwise. Turkey is very often an example of 'Islam gone wrong' from the point of view of various fundamentalists, Wahhabists and Salafists.
ISIL alone are responsible for recent attacks in Istanbul, Ankara, Diyarbakir, Reyhanli and Suruc. I wouldn't dismiss the Islamic terrorist threat posed here.
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cthulhu,
The study you referenced only examines suicide attacks – not terrorist attacks. Suicide attacks only constitute something like 5% of all terrorist attacks from around 1980, so they are small by comparison.
Suicide attacks only became more prevalent again from then to the present day, and motivation to do so has ranged from nationalism to Islamic fundamentalism. Drawling a line between the two can be difficult. Scott Atran and the Chicago Project on Suicide Terrorism would both dispute aspects of Pape’s findings, but all seem to agree that, since 2004, the overwhelming majority of suicide attacks have been Islamist.
In terms of terrorist attacks, the evidence against Islamists is even more damning.
What 95 percent of all suicide attacks have in common, since 1980, is not religion, but a specific strategic motivation to respond to a military intervention, often specifically a military occupation, of territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly. From Lebanon and the West Bank in the 80s and 90s, to Iraq and Afghanistan, and up through the Paris suicide attacks we’ve just experienced in the last days, military intervention—and specifically when the military intervention is occupying territory—that’s what prompts suicide terrorism more than anything else.
What does Lebanon, the West Bank (The Holy Land), Afghanistan and Iraq really have to do with? Religion - either clear differences between faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam), or particular schisms within Islam itself(Sunni, Shia).
To take the best example, The Lebanese Civil War was all about multi-religious conflict, dragging Israel and Syria into it in the process. Lebanon has many different religions and groups. The more recent Lebanon War was also the Israeli-Hezbollah War. The current conflict in Lebanon concerns Hezbollah again, ISIL and al-Nusra Front.
We could show similar examples with Afghanistan and Iraq, neither of which, however, have significant non-Islamic minorities. The West Bank is also an obvious religious conflict. There is also the issue that almost every Islamic country wants Israel destroyed, simply because they refuse to recognise its existence.
In the West, we mostly practise secularism which keeps religion out of our daily lives should we wish to do so. (THANK GOD :D ) This is what Ataturk also aimed for in Turkey. Throughout much of the Middle East and beyond, into the Islamic states further south and east and west, it is mostly a part of your daily life – whether you want it or not. That is one of the key differences here. Many Western analysts don't fully appreciate this.
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Pumpkin..
I agree with every single word you wrote...[Ataturk] had to be tough in 1920's heavy conditions.He knew what was going to happen next because he knew what kind of things islamists could do.He didn't get wrong...It is a very long case but his vision on islam was also right.Never used his power to end islam.But he was aware of our roots.So separating islam from government works and being a laic republic was right and ideal model in my opinion.
I really think that we turks couldn't have made a peace with islam...I know that it is the biggest motivation is islam for terror organisation to take them on their side..And saying all mess made by west is wrong.But I don't believe that west acted only when there is a threat.There were many times west acted without threats...but only thing I know is we will have harder times in future Im afraid.Unfortunately feeling very pessimistic about that.
Black Eagle Rising,
Thanks very much for your reply. I completely agree with you, too. Having worked in Erzurum, Ankara and Malatya, you can clearly see evidence of this, especially when compared to Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Ataturk's vision of Islam was correct - that it should be held in check by a strong government. The secularism you enjoy in Turkey is something that the Persians next door in Iran would love to return to, especially since The Ayatollah has returned the country to The Stone Age after previous attempts at secularisation under The Shah. Secularism generally works better in non-Arabic states, especially in ones which were former empires (Ottoman, Persian). I don't think the Arabs, as a majority, will embrace such a concept though. The spread of Islamic fundamentalism has also forced existing secular regimes to become more authoritarian in a response to protect secularism. Would you agree that this is what Erdogan might be up to?
Well actually I really can't know what he might be up to.He is the worst thing happened in our history.At his early times big majority of liberals and socialists believed him.Now they are too regretfull but its too late.And he messed our lives last 13 years.He used islam very well to cheat the half of the nation.He has to be authoritarian cos he and his crew has a lot dirty secrets to keep.But you cant keep it forever.I think he is also ill mentally.His main greed is about money and power.And islam was the perfect thing for him to reach his goals.All I want is this nightmare to be gone soon.Otherwise this ship will sink to the bottom forever.
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I am done debating with someone who clearly dislikes muslims. Guess what,secular people can also be militant.
I will not accept you or anyone blaming islam when it is the tiniest minority.
P.S. Israel is the aggressor in the Palestine conflict. The ******* zionists orphaned kids that I know, and it there is an attack back, then it is terrorism. But if a zionist pig kills innocent people, then it is not terrorism. some double standards the media has. .
I take it nobody read about the Greek Genocide while praising the national hero of Turkey?
In other news, Turkey sent Syrians back to the war zone and shot refugees at the border. Yet it is okay, due to the fact Turkey is Secular.
Just overlook all of this and the past.
First time Im hearing a thing called "Greek Genocide" !! We can discuss about ermenians but do you have anything to prove this?Amandistan We fought against each other in our national indepence war but I never ever heard something like that even from greeks.
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I am done debating with someone who clearly dislikes muslims.
If you are making reference to me, where exactly did I state that? Any examples? Or is this just another flying accusation?
Guess what,secular people can also be militant.
Of course they can. Reference has already been made to that.
I will not accept you or anyone blaming islam when it is the tiniest minority.
Have you familiarised yourself with verse from the Koran or the Hadith? The brutal sectarian split in Islam and why it exists? Mohammed's life and his goals? Do you know what Wahhabism is and why it exists? The role played by Saudi Arabia against all forms of Islam that 'deviate' from the puritanical version? Do you realise there is a virtual civil war within Islam itself? You must - because you've stated more than once that Muslims are being killed by Muslims. I accept that and I know exactly why this is so. I haven't seen anything from you in this thread that you actually know the answers to these questions.
P.S. Israel is the aggressor in the Palestine conflict. The ******* zionists orphaned kids that I know, and it there is an attack back, then it is terrorism. But if a zionist pig kills innocent people, then it is not terrorism. some double standards the media has.
I think this outburst quite clearly illustrates something interesting.
First and foremost, not all Israeli citizens are Jewish. Almost 21% of Israel's population is Arabic and these Israeli Arabs actually speak Hebrew and many sit in the Knesset. These are mostly Muslim or Christian. Is there any Arabic country which still has a large Jewish population? Rhetorical question. How many Islamic countries allow Jews in the government? Schools of political Zionism even advocate that Israel not be merely 'a state of Jews'. Moreover, not all Jews are Zionists. Within Judaism, there also exists a number of schisms, minus the orthodox, puritanical violence justified by verse which is directed at the more liberal elements in Islam (particularly Ahmadi Muslims).
Regardless, here you talk about Israel with a wide sweeping generalisation of Zionism, ignorant of the wider arguments within and the complex politics of Israel, then speak of 'a zionist pig'.
Are you sure you haven't been watching too much Palestinian Authority TV? The programmes that talk about Jews as pigs etc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyRLyXCj3Lg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyRLyXCj3Lg)
I take it nobody read about the Greek Genocide while praising the national hero of Turkey?
In other news, Turkey sent Syrians back to the war zone and shot refugees at the border. Yet it is okay, due to the fact Turkey is Secular. Just overlook all of this and the past.
I did read about this a long time ago; I certainly didn't dispute any of it. I could ask you why you didn't reference the Armenian Genocide which is a much more contentious issue affecting relations with Turkey. Do you want to consider the fact that both the Greeks and Armenians are eastern Orthodox Christians? Or did that probably not play a role here?
Whilst I do recognise Ataturk's valuable contribution to the secularisation of his country, I never once 'praised' him, as you define it, on matters outside of this. Or did I?
Could you please use more objectivity and familiarise yourself with what lies beyond simple demarcations?
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Now, you are attacking me. Not everyone has time to read thousands or articles and write in big words. I am tired of being made to feel as if my intelligence is being questioned. I did mention the Armenien genocide as well but Ataturk is not the cause of that one.
I know not all jews are zionists and never once said they were. Zionists are nationalists, All nationalists are pigs.
If the Israeli hate group want to kill my friend's family and cause kids to have no parents, I will not like them. Whatever.
If you want to use words like 'a zionist pig', then follow it on in your next reply with 'all nationalists are pigs', what do you honestly expect?
A cup of tea and a pat on the back?
What's the usual consensus in discussing politics and religion?
What exactly is 'the Israeli hate group' by the way?
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After the 2nd world war, they implemented ethical cleansing of the people of Palestine. They are now in refugee camps and Palestine is not recognized as a country.
"Ethical cleansing"?
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Music anyone? Take a break?
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Amanda
You argue against yourself. I have been to many countries. How old are you?
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No. I am taking what he or she said personally.
I don't care about politics or religion
Be that the case, best not make anti semitic comments like "zionist pig"
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No wonder the worlds in the state I is. So much yakyak.....
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Amanda. Calm it down. No-one here is blaming all muslims for all of the worlds ills and if they were, theyd be rightly rounded on. Youre confusing reluctance (to do more than we can take on) with refusal.
I personally dont know what Zionist is. But I have heard it thrown at Jews in general, so I have to say I support Shush in his sentiments. Equally Im happy to accept that you weren't throwing it at all Jewish people.
Whatever you're doing is affecting you personally, and whilst there have been some inflammatory posts to counter your arguments, they are exactly that. Counter arguments. You dont have to bite at wind up merchants either. No-one likes what it happening but equally it is what it is. People are shutting barriers because its impossible to accomodate an exodus.
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When you start using terms like "zionist pigs" you have stepped beyond the bounds of acceptability on this board. Such inflamatory language will not be tolerated on this board. By anyone. Is this clear?
VS.
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When you start using terms like "zionist pigs" you have stepped beyond the bounds of acceptability on this board. Such inflamatory language will not be tolerated on this board. By anyone. Is this clear?
VS.
Hear hear.
What you are witnessing is what happens when your really strip away the current issue(s)/geopolitics and get down to what people/person really thinks about certain peoples who take only one viewpoint. Raw naked hatred for some groups.
Personally I am against censorship, but is this thread going anywhere? I've kept off it for a few days because in the heat of the emotion, people are just reading what they want into what you post.
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Idopas, believe you've hit the nail on the head here, sooner or later true colours come out. The time for rational debate was gone on this thread a long while back with one of the principal posters.