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General Category => New Model Army => Topic started by: pjevac on September 02, 2016, 09:07:12 AM

Title: Lyrics
Post by: pjevac on September 02, 2016, 09:07:12 AM
Hi! In the wake of Winter, but also not only in direct connection to it, I'd like to open this discussion. English is not my first language. However I'd like to think I understand it well and can speak, read and write and have a normal conversation using it, I still sometimes have a feeling I'm missing some points due to intertextuality and some referrences that escape me, not being daily exposed to UK media or street talk or whatever makes it a core of that culture. It's like if I would be talking to someone in my homeland, Croatia, and with just mentioning some name in a way to describe a situation or a deed the person I'm talking to will get it immediately, but someone who's with us but grew up somewhere else would need to be explained what I meant.
There are many songs that I like a lot, some that I also sometimes play on my own gigs, but have never fully understood the meaning of the lyrics or what they actually are referring to. Or it's just that sometimes we all attach our own meaning to a song and don't bother finding out what the songwriter actually had in mind. Well, I'd like to bother, I'd like to know fully what some lines in some songs mean. So if anyone feels like explaining some lines or some referrences in, say, Family Life, where I still, after all these years, cannot get the line "Of the comfort for the girls who work alone", or some other songs, please do explain it. there are other songs I could name here, but let's start with that one...
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Guillaume on September 02, 2016, 09:30:13 AM
Interesting idea for a thread, thanks!

 So if anyone feels like explaining some lines or some referrences in, say, Family Life, where I still, after all these years, cannot get the line "Of the comfort for the girls who work alone"[/quote]

i guess it's an overall picture of loneliness of people...the far North, the girls, and the "hero" of the song...all alone, together?

I would like to know the meanings of songs like "Devil's bargain" and "Far better thing" too...
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Pol on September 02, 2016, 11:34:37 AM
I guess far better thing is about leaving a relationship / leaving home / a unhappy situation
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Guillaume on September 02, 2016, 01:11:33 PM
I guess far better thing is about leaving a relationship / leaving home / a unhappy situation

probably but in the lyrics there's the word "cancer" and "hospital" if i remember well, so i thought it was also about a dying man/woman and the sorrow of people facing loss, deaths of loved ones...i also wondered if Billy McCann in "Drummy B" was a friend of Justin, it's a song of lost friendship/betrayal for me.

"Devil's bargain" lyrics:

"People are like trees, they sway and they bend
But you stand like a rock and face into the wind
But you were never scared of anything or anyone
You stand like a statue as the animals come
To take from your hand, to eat from your hand
There's a dusty old photograph I'll always recall
Maybe it's true what they say – it takes a piece of your soul
You were jumping from the bridge and falling into space
Looking back at the camera with that smile on your face"

Mysterious lyrics...who is this person "jumping from the bridge, looking back at the camera with that smile on his/her face"?
if you read literally the person falls to his/her death, commits suicide, with a smile...a bit like Knievel??
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Shush on September 02, 2016, 03:06:02 PM
The song I most admire lyrically is "Higher Wall"

Such clever lyrics like a story, the story immigrants desiring to, and trying to get into the U.K. from their viewpoint.  While at the same time, we are shown to want to keep, not share the proportional riches we have accumulated for ourselves. The most powerful line in the song " We are your bastard children, all coming home" At first I thought JS  was perhaps making a reference to what must be in fact thousands of people across the former British Empire who are indeed illegitimate descendants of British Soldiers or Officials. The more I have listened to it in relation to the rest of the song I think it is more about Commercialism. In Third World Countries we traded and shown from the Western World the day to day luxuries we take for granted, things that most people in the Third Would could never expect to own, or experience very rarely. Mobile phones, cars, computers, light and heating, fast food chains, etc, all of which such people may see in their cities, but perhaps not have themselves. Hence the desire to go to the source of origin, where the wealth started from in the West, acquire such things for themselves, and live the lives they imagine the Tourists they have seen from the West in their country have.  That"s my take on it. Either way, a very powerful well written song.
Love the way "Die trying" kind of carries on with the story and is very topical at this time. JS has shown much empathy with the situation as a whole. Would not be surprised if in the future another song from JS follows, perhaps picking up the situation of those who have made it to the West, their promised land, only to face other problems  such as racism or fitting in to a new society, something along the lines of the lyrics to BD3.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: MARKXE on September 02, 2016, 03:43:00 PM
Good thread pjevac , have a look here some good stuff on it if you look.
 http://www.ne-ne.de/nmasongs/  ;)
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: pjevac on September 02, 2016, 04:15:57 PM
Great, thank you all for getting to it, I hope we continue!
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: kpmop on September 02, 2016, 07:01:24 PM
My take:

"jumping from the bridge, looking back at the camera with that smile on his/her face"? - i always imagined a guy bungee jumping here.

"for the comfort of the girls who work alone" - i take"girls who work alone" to be prostitutes - so yeah, the inherent loneliness of it all, looking for comfort and never finding it.

so, my question: what does "Echo November" mean or refer to? unfortunately it makes me think of a 1980's police TV show ... argh!!  ???
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Johnz on September 04, 2016, 09:00:02 PM
Far Better Thing is arguably Justin's darkest song to date. From what I understand it deals with the concept of killing for love or to do good (helping a friend with terminal cancer end their life, a political assassination or even suicide). The title is borrowed from Dickens' A Tale Of Two Cities ("It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done")

In the story, the main character choses to be executed instead of his friend so that the woman they both love can be with her true love which is his friend.

Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: jackroadkill on September 04, 2016, 09:11:25 PM
"....businessman on corruption charges
Millions of dollars in dirty money
A thousand pound fine after months in court
While the lawyers get fat and the law gets bought"

A particular favourite of mine; seems to sum up (for me at least) the underpinning tenet of Capitalism - if you've got the money, you've got the law.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: The Ghost of Cain on September 06, 2016, 07:08:41 AM
Far Better Thing is arguably Justin's darkest song to date. From what I understand it deals with the concept of killing for love or to do good (helping a friend with terminal cancer end their life, a political assassination or even suicide). The title is borrowed from Dickens' A Tale Of Two Cities ("It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done")

In the story, the main character choses to be executed instead of his friend so that the woman they both love can be with her true love which is his friend.

Exactly. 'Far Better Thing' is all about killing, or rather knowing when it's necessary, in order to preserve that which you love.

The 1st verse is about euthanasia; the second starts with the realisation that meat is murder, then moves to planning an assassination; and the chorus references Sydney Carton's last words “It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known,” prior to his sacrificial execution/suicide.

Figuratively it could refer to 'killing' something more abstract, for a greater good, which reminds me of 'Nothing Dies Easy'...
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: technicalboy on September 09, 2016, 03:55:04 PM
Going back to the OP, great question...

For me, the lyric continues from the line before -
"Past the places where your brother died
Of the comfort for the girls who work alone"

- which I take as a reference to AIDS and prostitution, which was very much new into everyone's awareness back in '87.  [Frickin hell, that's 30 years!]

Happy to help chipping in with other questions, but Justin's always been keen to NOT explain the lyrics, as part of the strength is what YOU bring to them, not what HE meant.

Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: pjevac on September 09, 2016, 06:55:35 PM
Thanks, technicalboy, on sharing your view, I somehow had some similar idea about it, but was not sure. As I say, it's not just about understanding the words themselves but also about understanding the context and the time when the song was written for to get the whole picture. Another song from the same period is another mystery for me to fully understand. It's actually one of the songs I love the best, Nothing Touches. BTW, I never heard of a live version of this song being available and I also checked all the posted set lists and never have seen it on them, so I wonder if they ever actually play it live, if anyone knows of it please tell me.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Guillaume on September 11, 2016, 04:28:24 PM
Another song from the same period is another mystery for me to fully understand. It's actually one of the songs I love the best, Nothing Touches. BTW, I never heard of a live version of this song being available and I also checked all the posted set lists and never have seen it on them, so I wonder if they ever actually play it live, if anyone knows of it please tell me.

It's also one of my very favorite NMA songs, and i can't believe it's never played live!  Justin's voice has probably never been as sweet delicate frail moving and etheral than on this song (with "Marry the sea", maybe)...but i'm not sure to really understand the meaning(s) of the lyrics too! ;)
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Guillaume on September 12, 2016, 08:58:08 AM
And what about the lyrics of "Someone like Jesus"?
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Impuri-D on September 12, 2016, 03:25:09 PM
And what about the lyrics of "Someone like Jesus"?

I think it is a mistake that is easy to fall in to, to presume that all Justin's lyrics are auto-biographical. he sells everything with such conviction and soul, that it would be easy to think that he spent most of his life on the high seas, or in court for fighting cops on the front line of social protests.

But at heart, he is a storyteller. A balladeer in the true tradition. All fiction writers draw on their own truth to fuel their imaginations, and sometimes I think, among the socio-political anger, and the stories of modest lives lived hard that we all relate to, he just lets loose with a literary idea and sees where it goes. Someone like Jesus evokes those half memories of childhood, when things were going on in the 'adult world' that you were protected from, but sort of knew about, but didn't understand at the time. Things that maybe as an adult you try to address with family, to find out more about the life you were part of, and maybe hitting obstacles as wounds healed are difficult to break open again for them.

Or I am completely wrong. It's just what it means to me.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Stefanie225 on September 13, 2016, 05:47:28 AM
And what about the lyrics of "Someone like Jesus"?

In an interview with German Magazine DocRock in 2000 Justin Sullivan said: "I think it's a kind of key song and I think it's the best song that I have written for over ten years. You know when you sometimes meet people who are very good or when you are in a situation that is full of love and good things and there is something in you and you don't know what it is that makes you want to tear it all down or do something really bad or something very destructive. The basic feeling of the song is this darkness we all carry around with us and we don't know why. The last verse is not about me, it's someone else's story."
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: sailor_joe on September 13, 2016, 08:53:10 PM
I remember when I first heard 'someone like jesus' back then - A friend sent it to me in an email (yes, I did buy the album later...), in a very low quality mp3. It sounded like Justin was singing it through a long-distance telephone line... that suited the song so very, very well that I still kept it for years afterwards, along with the album version. :)

As for the lyrics - I guess I see it as a poem about trying to find out who you really are (this comes to mind: http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/images5/crumbcoverzap8_1200.jpg), while you race through life, and left and right you can't help but compare yourself and your actions and stuff with all the others, all those little memories, they might be irrelevant or maybe they're not, and sometimes it feels like you just need one tiny little puzzle piece to finally get to the truth of the matter...

EDIT: err, ok, and now I read the post above and what justin said about it :) yeah, that, too... :)
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: peternotbaldyet on September 18, 2016, 01:30:17 PM
The second half of 'Far Better Thing' always reminds me of Cronenbergs 'Dead Zone', which poses the question, "If you had known what Hitler would become, would you have killed him?"

The song as a whole juxtaposes the mercy killing of a cancer victim and the political killing that is submitting a nation to a 'cancerous' regime.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: peternotbaldyet on September 18, 2016, 01:35:17 PM
KP, My take on Echo November is that Justin is remembering Rob, and from that memory, he's singing about the wider history of the band. I think he may have written the song around the anniversary of Robs death, hence the title. The emotions still come back to him. I am guessing of course.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: technicalboy on September 20, 2016, 11:13:47 PM
About Nothing Touches...
http://www.newmodelarmy.org/index.php/the-music/lyrics/201-nothing-touches

I'd say it has 2 possible meanings.  Either self-doubt about being in a band, writing about very emotive issues, but feeling some strange detachment at the same time from the world.

Or, being in a destructive relationship where you can't connect to others, but are still responsible for the damage there. 

Just my opinion, of course.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Guillaume on September 23, 2016, 06:22:58 PM
The second half of 'Far Better Thing' always reminds me of Cronenbergs 'Dead Zone', which poses the question, "If you had known what Hitler would become, would you have killed him?"

It's a great scene in a great film, isn't it?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJJYVORSP_w

Brooke Adams, Herbert Lom and especially Christopher Walken's performance are great...the ending is an highlight, powerful and so sad!! 
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: kabe on September 25, 2016, 01:21:39 PM
"of the comfort of the girls who work alone" - i think that can only be a reference to prostitutes, like technicalboy and kpmop suggested.

"nothing touches" - personally, if you put the direct imagery in the lyrics aside, it's about how we're in only a moment-by-moment existence.  no connection with, well, anything, truly.  'screaming', and 'bloody faces', and still the lyrics are about understanding it all without *feeling* any of it.  just personally, i'd say it's about the strangeness of a strange life (in a band? how does that work?) - but how do you talk about that in the short prose of a lyric?  by couching it in 'things', i'd say.

for what it's worth, i always thought "north star" was an allegory about rob heaton: "the best man i ever sailed with" and as we "vanish into the whiteout" and "the helmsman's star" - the latter, well, for me, the drummer is always that, in every band.

for me, there's a constant thread thru justin's lyrics, maybe skipping songs but always reappearing, about mortality, the solitude it sometimes imposes, and the strange beauty of being alive, for just a while.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Master Ray on September 25, 2016, 07:30:52 PM
Personally, I always thought that North Star was about Tommy Tee, but you can interpret it either way, the concept is still the same...
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: peternotbaldyet on September 29, 2016, 10:42:53 AM
North Star is about Tommy. He was the helmsman who guided the ragged crew through stormy waters for so many years.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Master Ray on September 29, 2016, 07:03:25 PM
The Dead Zone film has come up a couple of times here... it's a very good film, but the book is one of King's best, really gets into the Johnny / Sarah relationship a lot more and is one of the most emotive things I've ever read in a novel.

If you like the film, deffo check out the book!
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Anna Woman von NRW on September 29, 2016, 08:15:57 PM
The Dead Zone film has come up a couple of times here... it's a very good film, but the book is one of King's best, really gets into the Johnny / Sarah relationship a lot more and is one of the most emotive things I've ever read in a novel.

If you like the film, deffo check out the book!

Totally agree  :)
Title: Help me understand...
Post by: 8 on September 27, 2020, 03:57:05 PM
BUMP!


Whoa!  So thrilled I stumbled upon this amazing thread, thank you for building it pjevac!!  :)

Lyrics matter a great deal to me, especially because at times they're probably even harder to write, draw out of oneself, than the music itself, especially if the lyrics are not a co-written type venture.  Lyrics are there for a reason.  They aren't there to look pretty, but are there to get something across to the listener.  They're there to reach, affect, move and enlighten us, in some way or other.  In a lot of ways, lyrics matter more to me than the music itself does.  That said, I do intensely love the actual finished pieces with the vocals and music added into the mix as well.  I find that the completed songs make for an even stronger, solid, deeper, more rewarding, and thoroughly incredible listening experience!  And, the added vocals and music, afford the listener an even wider, more vivid, greater space, or room, for endless angles of perception, interpretation.

Mr. Sullivan is incredibly gifted in the way of lyrics!  Writing is naturally, already in his blood.  And is absolutely fcuking gorgeous!!  It would be a terrible shame if the gentleman never finds it within himself to write a book, his book, because he has a lifetime of, and seriously wide rage of tremendous stories to tell, share... that is, if he chooses to, of course.  I have no idea why Mr. Sullivan thinks that he has to be dead, in order for a book to be written.  That's just complete and utter bollocks!  Write it now, write it yourself, write in your own words... why, you ask?  Well, because it was you who were there for the bulk of it... and more importantly, it was you who fcuking lived it.  :)  Let the others write their version(s), and you... write yours.  Also, NMA/RSC would just be a part of it, ok a large part of it, but certainly not the ONLY or even, perhaps, the best or most important part of it.  You don't have to get too personal, if you don't wish to.  That's totally natural and cool, too.  :)  I have complete faith in your gifts and abilities.  And, I'm likely not the only one here either.  Alright?  I believe in you so fcuking much, Mr. Sullivan.  :'(:'(  You SO do, have everything it takes, believe me.  It's just a matter making the time to organize it all and get it down on paper or even tape, if you have to.  Don't wait for others, they'll probably get it all wrong.  Do it for your dad, your grandad, your great-grandad, your mum, your wife & children (if and when), your partner, your friends, your family and for those of us who've always loved and believe in you.  Do it for yourself, Mr. Sullivan... do it for us.   xx

A tremendous amount of great thought, time and effort goes into to writing anything really, and song lyrics are no exception to this truth.  In fact, it's probably even harder to write lyrics because of the time-crunch, time limitations, time allotted within / by the length of a song.  One of my high school teachers - though she wasn't my English teacher - used to always say 'brevity is wit'... and fcuk was she right!  That has always stuck with me, soft lol, even though I don't really follow that idea with the bulk of my posts... they always turn into these fcukin' long, :-\ often times very personal, heavy letters.  :-[

Now, to get back to the idea and original purpose of this truly enthralling, exciting and beautiful thread...

The one line that I still do not understand comes from the stunning NMA song,  "Pull  The  Sun" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9jSho4zlAc).  That's a gorgeous, incredible clip of Mr. Sullivan performing it solo, you can better hear the lyrics, actually, completely clearly, because it is so stripped - meaning, there's no other instrumentation added into the mix - it's just the man, a mic and his guitar.

It should be pretty simple and straight forward, the line, but I actually don't fully grasp it, understand it.  I have an idea, but am not certain.  If anyone reading this can help me understand it, within the context of the actual song, what that one single line - that I've bolded below - means or is trying to get across to the listener, then please step forward and share your thoughts, interpretations of it with me?  Anyone and everyone is welcome to reply.  Anyone.  If that happens to be you, who are reading this right now, I thank you here, in advance.  Thank you.

It's an extremely personal, HUGE song for me.  I completely get or understand - well, imagine to, at any rate - everything else within and about the lyrics to it, aside from that one single line.  I really, really love and cherish this song, on a deeply profound emotional level.  For some unbeknownst to me reason, can totally relate to it.  I feel as if I've already been in a situation like that with someone I deeply love and care about, and this song, that one line, or request, has been on my mind ever since first hearing it.  It just jumped out at me, from the very first listen.  It's absolutely, totally fcukin' crazy, but I feel as if I was there?  But how can it be?  How can that fcuking be?  Ugh!  :-[:'(


Pull The Sun
(2013)

Impossible desire, impossible the dream.
We lined them all up together, and set off on the chase.
Now the years they are gone, like thieves in the dark.
Did your eyes follow after them, into the night?

I watched you as you tried and tried,
To pull the sun from out of the sky.
The colours all run and the clouds collide,
But that was never enough.
And me, I’ve got a black place in my heart.
My favourite chord, my favourite card,
That I draw every time on these occasions.

If you leave a fire to burn, it will burn itself away.
It’s a long way back through the dirty waters, for you and me.
Are you still haunted by the hands, always letting you go?
And  if I told you not to look, would you do that for me, this one time ?

But I watched you, as you tried and tried,
To pull the sun from out of the sky…


:-[:'(



Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: cthulhu on September 28, 2020, 08:02:06 AM
Well, the song also has a huge personal meaning for me, especially when played live on the cologne christmas concert 2013..i can still remember the song and the emotions and thoughts it brought up then...but i won't go further into details.

To me the line "if I told you not to look, would you do that for me, this one time ?" refers to the biblical story of Sodom and the Wife of Lot.
They fled the city and all of them were told not to look back, but Lots wife wouldn't listen, turned around to look back and became a column of salt. But also it refers to the first strophe
"Now the years they are gone, like thieves in the dark.
Did your eyes follow after them, into the night?"

I see there something about trust, moving on, dealing with the past.



Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Tarsier on September 29, 2020, 01:21:58 AM
Wow, yes, this is the NMA forum, 'Lyrics' -topic should be pinned to the top! :)

Although I'm not sure if there's a lot I'd like to share about my relationship with the lyrics... It IS a relationship! Relationship that has been going on for long, long time... Ever-shifting, ever-loving, ever-loyal, always there... As any relationship, it's very personal, private thing. It's funny, sometimes I feel I would prefer not to hear what he personally thought when writing some lyrics...like it feels then that the song might start to feel ''less mine'', because of all personal attachments :)

There are, however, songs that I'd love to know more about, the tragic-story ones... Like ''Leeds Road 3AM'' and ''Disappeared''. Especially ''Disappeared'' has been haunting... Years ago my friend's 19-year old son went missing. I can't even start to imagine how she must have felt at the time, too terrifying.....Terrifying. Anyway, anyone remembers Justin talking about the stories behind those songs?

8, about your wish for Mr. Sullivan to write a book... if my memory doesn't fail me, Justin has mentioned many times that he dislikes re-visiting the past... Kind of fair enough, as time goes by, I agree with with him on that more and more. But of course I would be there amongs the first ones in the queue to buy his book :)

Just now before posting this, I tried googling interviews that might shed some light to songs that were puzzling me... Didn't exactly find what I was looking for, but this interview from 2008 was an interesting read, thought you all might also enjoy it - here's a link in case you haven't read it!
https://alienatedinvancouver.blogspot.com/2009/08/new-model-army-tribal-warfare-and.html (https://alienatedinvancouver.blogspot.com/2009/08/new-model-army-tribal-warfare-and.html)
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Guillaume on September 29, 2020, 07:20:41 PM
There are, however, songs that I'd love to know more about, the tragic-story ones... Like ''Leeds Road 3AM'' and ''Disappeared''.

Justin said in an interview for a french music magazine back in early 2000's that he was a witness for what happens at the end of the "Leeds road 3am" song...very sad story but fantastic song though, one of Justin's best.

And 8 is right, a book, maybe a memories book, written by JS...would be great!

(A few years ago there were rumours of a french book written about the band...but unfortunately nothing new...for the moment at least)
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Tarsier on September 30, 2020, 03:23:30 AM
Thank you Guillaume! It's been one of my favourite songs also, but just realised I don't listen to it that often... The ending gets me every time, pretty heavy feeling.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: Guillaume on September 30, 2020, 09:47:35 AM
Thank you Guillaume! It's been one of my favourite songs also, but just realised I don't listen to it that often... The ending gets me every time, pretty heavy feeling.

Yes it's a beautifully written and built song, and the music (bass and drums) is brillant too.
EIGHT is an underrated album among the NMA fanbase...at least for stunning songs like this one and "Someone like Jesus", "You weren't there", "Orange tree roads", etc.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: fiddlesticks on September 30, 2020, 12:02:07 PM
I vaguely remember on Joolz' twitter feed she mentioned Leeds Road 3AM was a true story.  Haunting song.
Title: Re: Lyrics
Post by: fiddlesticks on September 30, 2020, 12:22:15 PM
"Jesus" has a real Leonard Cohen feel to it. Was it someone like Jesus, or the real Jesus?

The prayer preceding all prayers is, ‘May it be the real I who speaks. May it be the real Thou that I speak to.’
- C. S. Lewis