Author Topic: Ukraine!  (Read 3593 times)

lotus

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2015, 09:21:12 PM »
I read about this in the newspapers, listen ti that watcing tv  - and I don`t know what to do to stop this sh*t
Not knowing right or wrong - a market place for politicians, global market, international players
and the normal people there, only want to have a normal life can`t have a nomal life - they have to decide to follow this or that party, but the game is played on a higher level

I don`t want to be at your place

take care of you

Lotus

And me, I`ve got a black place in my heart
Still got this hole in me
Perhaps - I am the master of nothing?

Rusco

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2015, 08:57:45 AM »
While I've been following this thread, I haven't posted the ongoing issues in Finland which started in 2007:

Various infringements in airspace and sea by Russian aeroplanes. It's only a tip of the ice berg.

Well I don't want to swamp this forum in a whining about distrust but sure it is there now.
Finnish government have questioned these infringements many times but Russia disputes them and we've heard they're making jokes about our reactions in newspapers. It's a joke to them.

We've always been in a singular and unique terms with the big R in east and still we are totally free and independent nation. (Some might say even rich, in western world standards.) The terms/relations are based in trade and agreements that no one other dares to take part in. In Ukraine, they've said they'd want Ukraine to develop, evolve to a same kind of country as Finland is nowadays. But nothing's black&white if we look it deeper. The territory, locations and political atmosphere are totally different.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 09:02:50 AM by Rusco »
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Simon73

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2015, 08:22:19 PM »
thanks for all your comments and the ongoing discussion. will write more when I can and hat I can (which is not a lot for security reasons internet not being safe etc)
best
simon

Billy T

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2015, 09:49:42 PM »
Well...The war's back on (it never really stopped).....Russian and separatist forces launched a serious offensive overnight....But yeah, for some people her,e of course both sides, or America, or the lizard people behind the government are to blame, or what ever......the fact remains Russian hardware, Russian soldiers are fighting on the territory of Ukraine, not Ukrainian soldiers and hardware fighting on the territory of Russia, but somehow the fault lies with anyone but journalist/opposition murdering, gay bashing, fascist Putin........

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/03/can-anyone-stop-putin-s-new-blitz.html?via=desktop&source=twitter

At least Slovakia's PM is showing back bone against fascism.....

http://joinfo.com/world/1002477_Slovak-Prime-Minister-flabbergasts-Russians-no.html
"It's better than two goblins trying to f**k a donkey up the arse with a laser beam." - Noel Gallagher

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Johnz

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2015, 04:47:36 PM »
Thanks for keeping us informed. I don't post in this thread much as I really haven't got a very good understanding of the situation. That's why I really appreciate hearing about it from people who are actually there.

Master Ray

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2015, 07:11:53 PM »
Agreed, I'm rather ignorant of the whole situation.  Thanks for keeping us posted.  I should read more.   :-[
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cthulhu

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2015, 10:54:42 AM »
I felt and feel adressed by Billy Ts comment about different opinions and then mixing it with lizard people. and i was and i am still kind of pissed off by it. these kind of views, blaming the one evil (putin) for a complex conflict and then disavow everything that tries to get some understanding is just hate fueling and the way to war.

i mean, i just posted information which is important to have regarding the conflict and of course it has to do with international politics and of course you have the usa in the boat even in the ukraine.

but i don't want to justifie myself against this obvious dumb remark about lizard people, when trying to get a wider view about the conflict.

i found a good comment about the situation which has some ideas regarding peace. that's what we need.


At the end of the Cold War, the prevailing view in Washington was that the U.S. was strong, and Russia was weak and did not count in a unipolar world. We disregarded Russia’s opposition to NATO expansion, the Iraq War, and the U.S.-led military intervention in Serbia for the independence of Kosovo. We went back on our assurances to Russia that the air war on Libya was limited to saving civilian lives and did not include regime change. We withdrew from the ABM Treaty and even suggested that Ukraine and Georgia join NATO.

With each rejection, Russia’s resentment grew. Confronted by the West’s support for the pro-Europe protests in Independence Square in 2013 (Euromaidan) and the unlawful deposition of President Viktor Yanukovych in 2014, Russia’s accumulated uneasiness over the West’s intentions increased, and its military intervention in Eastern Ukraine soon began. The U.S. actions in Kosovo—carving out an independent state based on ethnicity from within a sovereign nation—provided the precedent for Russia to carve Crimea out of Ukraine.

Given all these events, many people declare that a new Cold War has arrived. I don’t agree. It is not too late to repair our relationship with Russia, but real improvement starts with Ukraine—a country of historical strategic interest for Russia and no strategic interest for us.

In May, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and German Chancellor Angela Merkel both held meetings with Putin, signaling that diplomatic efforts may be beginning to break the current stalemate over the Ukraine crisis. Such efforts must recognize, in retrospect, that all parties are responsible for the current situation: Russia, in its military interventions; the U.S. and Europe, in attempting to bring Ukraine exclusively into the Western sphere, especially NATO; and Ukraine itself, in not taking advantage of opportunities over the last 20 years to improve its governance, reduce corruption, and create greater national unity.

Accepting this shared responsibility for the crisis in Ukraine, we can pursue an understanding that recognizes both the legitimacy of Russia’s concerns about security threats on its border and the importance of self-determination by the Ukrainian people. Such a deal would have five features:

1. Russian forces would withdraw from eastern Ukraine, and Russia would accept Ukraine’s current borders in a binding treaty.

2. Ukraine would agree never join NATO.

3. Ukraine would be allowed membership in both the European Union and the Eurasian Economic Union.

4. A new, internationally supervised referendum would be held in Crimea on whether to join Russia, remain part of Ukraine, or become independent, as Michael O’Hanlon of the Brookings Institution and others have suggested, thereby providing a victory to the West’s core values by promoting authentically democratic self—determination, as opposed to the phony democracy practiced in the referendum held in Crimea last year.
   
5. All economic sanctions on Russia would be lifted.

http://time.com/3916035/ukraine-u-s-russia/



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Johnz

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2015, 02:24:45 PM »
Interesting post cthulhu. As I said earlier, I really do not know enough about the situation and am keen to learn more from those who have more invested. However, I have had this creeping feeling for a while now that the anti-Russian propaganda that we're being fed is a bit over the top. Sure, Putin has made some highly questionable moves but it would appear that they are en par with those of the USA and EU.

I just can't help but feel that we're being mislead by our media. It just seems so cheap and obvious (like Russia's oppression of gays and lesbians. Since when has any US or EU government ever given two shits about another country's gay rights? Even the recent FIFA 'scandal' seems to have a distinct anti-Russian component to it. It seems to me that Russia is being pushed more than its pushing but I could be wrong.

I think I can smell a rat but I'm happy to be corrected by those who know more about the situation.

cthulhu

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2015, 04:15:16 PM »
Well Johnz, your post lightens me up a lot. because you recognize the anti-russian propaganda and notice the media-war and disinformation that fucks me up so much.
it fucks me up because people fall for it and then use it in discussions as arguements.

again, i'm not saying that putin (even this is so stupid, it's never a person but a system or a parliament or group who is acting.) or say russia (not the people, never the people but their so called leaders) has done everything right. but in this special case of the ukrainia conflict you have to regard the timetable of events. and if you do so, you have to reckognize the need for russia to act in that situation.

what about some formerly mexican state in the us had some squarrel, like the maidan, and there were some unsolved shootings of innocent people, and russia would say: yes, we promote a regime change and anyway we're supporting the opposotion with money. the thought alone seems ridiculous. why?

we're so indoctrinated to see western involvement in other countries as purely driven by wanting to help democracy, human rights or whatever good cause there is, that we cannot see that all of this sh*t is only geopolitics in the aera of neoliberalism.

we're misled by the mainstream media, and all i can see at the moment ist that they prepare us for a war. these type of texts i posted, an acknowledgement of the russian point of view, a reflection of the past and the actions by us, the west, which invoke that kind of russian reaction, are very rare.

let's hope the voices who really care and seek a solution, a discussion and do not only throw blame around can make themselves heard and have some more platform to be published.

screaming loud, i am not at war!
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Danny

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2015, 04:55:13 PM »
Ctulhu, don't worry - there's a number of us who see through the western propaganda (as well as through the Russian one, by the way - like you I certainly don't think Russia is exempt from blame... but neither is the current Ukrainian government, and most definitely not the EU and US; and seeing as we're not in Russia, I'm much more concerned about western propaganda than others'), it's just that I personally find it pointless to argue online with faceless keyboard warriors who will then act all sheepish if/when they meet you in person (it's happened to me before, including with people I've had arguments with on here in the past); I did at times in the past, but haven't for quite some time and have no real interest in going back to doing it. We are also very capable of looking for information and sources ourselves, so it's not like we rely on the links posted by people on the NMA board and treat them like some sort of oracle to base our world view on either.
Sometimes I will post my opinion/comment on a specific matter ONCE (I'm sure I did in the previous post on the situation in Ukraine, over a year ago, I might have done in this thread too, I don't honestly remember), after that I'm happy to let those who feel they've got to have the last word have it... I never changed my mind or opinion on things following a 'lecture' by some sanctimonious person on an Internet board once, and I don't honestly think I ever will, so whatever helps them fill their life really ;)

Pumpkin

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2015, 10:22:38 AM »
we're misled by the mainstream media, and all i can see at the moment ist that they prepare us for a war. these type of texts i posted, an acknowledgement of the russian point of view, a reflection of the past and the actions by us, the west, which invoke that kind of russian reaction, are very rare.

In your previous post you had a link to an article in TIME. Isn’t TIME a very mainstream media source? Regardless, it offers a viewpoint with which you agree and there’s no problem with that. I think if you look at mainstream Russian media, you'd really get a sickener and see plenty of talk of war.

In many ways the TIME article featuring a former US Senator was not what I would have expected. It's certainly worth a discussion. The first thing that strikes me about what Bill Bradley says is his criticism of Poroshenko’s decision to give former Georgian President Saakashvili Ukrainian citizenship and make him the Governor of Odessa region which the DPR really want so that they could 'create' a bridge for their operations. He calls it provocative. Why? No real reason given.

Saakashvili has a lot going for him, but he is one of a revolving cabinet of notorious public enemies in Putin’s eyes, since he, like three of Ukraine's recent presidents, also refused to bow down to Moscow’s increasingly authoritarian control and was subsequently ‘rewarded’ by Putin with his country being invaded in 2008. Sound familiar? Putin is said to have wanted Saakashvili hanged “by the balls” years ago. I reckon he does even more so now that he’s a Ukrainian citizen determined to help the country retake Crimea. 

Bradley is certainly correct about Western feck-ups with Kosovo and Libya, I'll certainly grant him that, but it’s only the former which had a real influence on Russian politics and rightly so. Why? Because it came at the expense of another good client state...

Bradley is also correct in stating that “Russian forces” exist in Ukraine. He might want to reinforce the existence of Russian troops further by saying this is only possible because of Putin and the Russian approved paramilitary leadership operating in the so-called DPR, the same crowd who accuse Ukraine of being currently run by “miserable representatives of the great Jewish people”. It is actually the DPR, the self-gloryfying separatists, and its 'leadership' who are anti-Semitic, sectarian, racist, homophobic and anti-Ukrainian. The United Nations, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have all passed comment on this. It isn't some fabrication of anti-Russian propaganda.

Back to the article, I don’t think Bradley can, however, rightly emphasise “the importance of self-determination by the Ukrainian people”, then disregard that by claiming Ukraine “would never agree to join NATO”. By putting preconditions on the table, you are actually eroding self-determination outright.  Ukraine wants NATO membership; Georgia wants NATO membership. The reasons are obvious: no one fostered this upon them – they see the benefits that its members have.

Some further points to the article:

1. Russia had already agreed to accept Ukraine’s borders in a binding treaty back in the 1990s. It has since violated that on several occasions, particularly since its client, Yanukovych, was given the bum’s rush out of town last year.  No one wants him back and his political party belongs to the pages of history. Russia refused to accept Ukraine’s territorial integrity outright, because Ukraine had the ‘audacity’ to prefer a closer alliance with Europe. Had Yanukovych been deposed in favour of someone linked to the DPR, Moscow wouldn't have shown the slightest sign of disapproval. The fact is, and the Presidential elections confirmed it, Ukraine wants a closer relationship with the West.

2. Ukraine wants to join NATO and has been a member of PfP for a long time. Is it supposed to turn its back, simply because Putin doesn’t like that?

3. Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia have been offered membership of both the EU and EEU to various extents. All three are only interested in the EU and do not want to be part of Putin’s master plan to recreate the Russian Empire.  Don’t forget that Yanukovych’s decision to abandon the EU deal and focus only on one with the EEU galvanised Euromaidan and led to his, and his party's, downfall. Putin pulled the strings on that, too, but failed to see it would cost his client his job. 

4. Any proposed referendum on Crimea’s constitutional status would have to satisfy the conditions of the Ukrainian constitution – not the conditions the West or Russia wants – and only that. Bradley is certainly right about last year’s “phony democracy”, aka the fear-mongering referendum in Crimea which attempted to paint Ukrainians simultaneously as both Nazis and Jew-loving Zionists of the highest order. How ironic is that? The DPR tries to do likewise.

Russia under Putin simply dislikes any former 'colony' which has the temerity to challenge Moscow’s increasing authoritarianism, especially if that involves a closer relationship with the West.

Maybe lending an ear to Russian dissidents and the various political opposition movements, many of which are underground at this stage, would do more to shed light on such events than simply thinking Putin is a victim of anti-Russian propaganda fuelled by inept Western leaders who really aren’t interested in standing up to him. Putin certainly knows that all too well at this stage. Failing that, there’s always a critical examination of Russian media to explore…
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 10:32:10 AM by Pumpkin »

Simon73

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2015, 09:27:29 PM »
I can tell you. It is really fucked up. The situation in the counrty seems normal but who lives in the so called DPOR territory or in the buffer zone get shelled every bloody day or almost. Both parties sit in their trenches shelling each other and killing mainly civilians. 2 days ago I visited the hispital where a 10 year old girl got her feet amputated and she lost her mom during the previus night's shelling. ut s fucked up and as usual civilians are the main casualties.

Amandistan

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2015, 10:55:29 AM »
It's normal elsewhere. In Lviv and Kiev nothing. In fact I am going this weekend  to Lviv.
It's a shame that this is happening near the border. Ukrainians are really nice, friendly people.
Damn Russians trying to dominate the world again. No wonder why People of ex- soviet countries still can't stand Russians. And Putin treats his own people that way too.
Where I'm from is not my home, and neither's where i'm bound.

cthulhu

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2015, 02:13:46 PM »

Damn Russians trying to dominate the world again. No wonder why People of ex- soviet countries still can't stand Russians. And Putin treats his own people that way too.

Yes, those evil Russians always trying to dominate the World. You saw it in every James Bond Movie. And Putin..can't even think how evil he reacts, pardon, he acts in comparison to the friendly Empire of USA, who only wants to bring peace love and harmony and democracy to the world. Yeah, another russian imperial day. The friendly usa is treating their own people so well, so that most of them now even don't have to work! and all those killings by the police are just bad mistakes, it's not racism.
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Simon73

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Re: Ukraine!
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2015, 06:24:54 PM »
It's normal elsewhere. In Lviv and Kiev nothing. In fact I am going this weekend  to Lviv.
It's a shame that this is happening near the border. Ukrainians are really nice, friendly people.
Damn Russians trying to dominate the world again. No wonder why People of ex- soviet countries still can't stand Russians. And Putin treats his own people that way too.

yes they are friendly people but super patriotics and nationalists since they are very young I can tell u. today is indipendence day here. crazy scenes of peole and children with flags only patriotic song about ukraine etc