Author Topic: Another Imperial Day  (Read 3018 times)

Heno

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2014, 10:15:34 PM »
without trying to simplify it too much, isn't the issue here to do with territories returning to the be part of the country they were part of before the Bolsheviks. I just don't understand why the western powers are interfering. maybe its too obvious.
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Billy T

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2014, 09:15:11 AM »
without trying to simplify it too much, isn't the issue here to do with territories returning to the be part of the country they were part of before the Bolsheviks. I just don't understand why the western powers are interfering. maybe its too obvious.

No, it's one country trying to re-incorporate all the territories that were taken by the Bolsheviks (Stalin) in the case of Moldova (which had been a part of Romania), or that belonged to the Russian Empire in the case of Crimea, which was moved to Ukraine by the "Bolsheviks" (Kruschev). That said both of these territories have other claims to them, in the case of Moldova, an independent country for 400 or so odd years which believes it has the right to be an independent country again, and in the case of Crimea the Tartars who were forcibly and genocidally expelled from their ancesteral homeland by Stalin. In the case of the wider mainland Ukraine, it's people thinking their country and its policies should serve Ukraine and its peoples first, instead of Moscow.

As for why the west is intervening...several different reasons, in my personal opinion-some good, some bad... Some in the western political establishment see a chance to stick it to Russia, some, notably the Baltics and Poland, have historical reasons to fear Russia (that whole oppression and genocide thing again), and some of us naive dreamers think it would be nice for the Ukrainians themselves to have more control over their own destiny.
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Shush

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2014, 07:42:57 PM »
Preliminary invasion, or take over tactics now underway for Ukraine . Encourage the Russian population to become active so they can be "liberated"
Just as the Nazis did in the 1930s to "liberate" the German peoples of Austria , Sudetenland, and then implanted German peoples in Danzig to be liberated from their Polish oppressors leading to WW2.

Lets hope it only leads to the re-emergence of the Cold War, as opposed to WW3  >:(
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 08:38:13 PM by Shush »

Heno

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2014, 08:09:03 PM »
i thought crimea was traditionally russian and not ukrainian. the tartars claim is legit. but they are a minority. and its main ties have been to russia for over a quarter of a millennium

although i am reading as much as i can. i haven't got the book yet. plenty of information to consume and try to build a view

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2014, 08:39:52 PM »
Woops  :-[

Sorry Heno, meant to say Ukraine earlier, not Crimea. changed it

Rusco

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2014, 08:45:33 PM »
i thought crimea was traditionally russian and not ukrainian. the tartars claim is legit. but they are a minority. and its main ties have been to russia for over a quarter of a millennium


Russian state should honour the numerous minorities it has. Instead of turning and adopting arrogantly them by force from their own cultures and traditions. That won't never work.
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Heno

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2014, 09:10:13 PM »
sure thing shush



rusco. don't the majority in crimea claim russia as their preference? and are these not the most current majority and have been for a long time?

i'm not saying its right by everyone but most democracies have majority rule and the majority, by far the majority, want russia.
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Rusco

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2014, 09:57:30 PM »
rusco. don't the majority in crimea claim russia as their preference? and are these not the most current majority and have been for a long time?

Oh, yes. I actually thought about the minorities inside Russian borders, not in Ukraine. Right for their own language, teaching of it, occupation and religion.
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Heno

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2014, 10:14:02 PM »
so in effect crimea as part of russia is really a microcosm of the overall russian state and its treatment of minorities. which is a huge issue. they control some of the biggest most valuable resources on the planet and provide little or no benefit to the indigenous people who would traditionally own and benefit from the resources. so maybe the agitation is more do with the breakdown of russia which is more or less intact after giving pseudo independence with the fall of the iron curtain. and the western powers know that the indigenous peoples will give them better deals for they resources than if the russians control it.

i can remember germany very clearly setting itself up as the gateway to the east when the berlin awl came down. they were the ones that went in and helped develop the freed countries in a effort to profit from their emerging economies. a financial lebensraum maybe. i'd love to see where the germans stand on all of this. i mean the german banks and corporations, not the people
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Heno

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2014, 10:28:56 PM »
by the way, apologies for some spelling. the auto correct on this thing is so annoying. and i'm too tired to change it now. nite
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Shush

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2014, 12:20:06 AM »
Interesting thought Heno. Is the motive of the western powers the preservation of freedom, or the preservation of good trade. That thought reminds me of the invasion of Kuwait in 1990 and the true motives to go to war.

I think one key thing over the whole Ukraine issue, and Crimea is the way Russia is handling it. If there is true concern and belief that the majority of Crimea, and now Ukraine have a majority wishing to return to Russian rule, then there are more internationally acceptable ways of doing it, such as referendum. Not a hasty take over done in a short period of time before anyone knows what is going on.

For comparison, look at Scotland. The Scots have a massive decision to make, but the people will be making that decision after years of notice and planning and plenty of time to listen to both view points. That's the way to determine a countries liberty, not the Russian way.

Billy T

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2014, 08:09:03 AM »
Interesting thought Heno. Is the motive of the western powers the preservation of freedom, or the preservation of good trade. That thought reminds me of the invasion of Kuwait in 1990 and the true motives to go to war.

I think one key thing over the whole Ukraine issue, and Crimea is the way Russia is handling it. If there is true concern and belief that the majority of Crimea, and now Ukraine have a majority wishing to return to Russian rule, then there are more internationally acceptable ways of doing it, such as referendum. Not a hasty take over done in a short period of time before anyone knows what is going on.

For comparison, look at Scotland. The Scots have a massive decision to make, but the people will be making that decision after years of notice and planning and plenty of time to listen to both view points. That's the way to determine a countries liberty, not the Russian way.

An honest argument can be made that the majority inside Crimea wanted to return to Russia, with 58% of the population being Russian, but we'll never know because the referendum that was held was patently engineered from Moscow, with armed Russian soldiers at every polling station and the few people who showed up who openly expressed pro-ukrainian or Tatar sentiments beaten by thugs....

But pay attention carefully to what's hapening in the east right now and you'll see the same "self-defense" forces who showed up in Crimea, wearing the same uniforms and carrying the same very modern weaponry that is oh so coniscidentally the same as the spetznazt (Russian special forces) is kitted out with....

Also there are valid questions about what the West's interest is in Ukraine, is it energy, is it German banks etc. But the question I'm not seeing asked by most Western press and especially the lefty press, is "what is Russia's real interests  here?"...It's very easy to point the finger at big oil, big banks etc. and they are evil, but be very aware that a good chunk of Russia's armed forces are supplied with technologies and products developed  and manufactured in Ukraine....Ukraine is something like the 5th or 6th largest arms exporters in the world and their number 1 customer is Russia, by an overwhelming amount....... Without Ukraine Putin has trouble ktting out his armed forces. So for a lot of the self-loathing western set it seems to be "war for oil bad, war for weapons...wait look over there the west is doing something bad"

It should also be noted that last week before the "spontaneous" uprisings in the 4 Eastern Oblasts, the Kyiv central governemnt had already more or less agreed to Russian demands for a referendum on more autonomy for the eastern oblasts to occur on the same day as the May 25th presidential elections, to which the Russians demanded it be held before then.... Another important note, inside the 4" Russian" speaking obalsts the "peoples republic" guys, the reunion with Mother Russia guys and "self defense" forces were run out of town in all but one by the Russian speaking majority, waving Ukrainian flags and throwing rocks at them...

And in case you aren't following any of the news from Ukrainian (or even Polish sites) you should know the shooting started at the weekend in Donetsk Oblast...4 Ukrainian Intelligence Troops were shot, with 1 dying....And last night Ukrainian troops defending an air base shot and killed 3 armed protesters.... Some Ukrainian troops sent east to quell the uprising have apparently switched sides, but there is also noise that the limits placed on the Ukrainian commander were so unrealistic that his troops would have no choice but to surrender if confronted, a la the Dutch UN troops at Srebenica during the Bosnian war..... Hard to tell through the propaganda what the exact situation is here.

Today is huge though....All the muckety mucks are meeting in Luxembourg marking the first time the Russians have been willing to sit at the table with the new leadership in Kyiv, and there is a mass pro-Ukrainian rally planned for Donetsk at 18:00 tonight.....Something very big could happen today, going either way.....
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Billy T

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2014, 08:14:38 AM »
One more blackly humorous happening during the uprisings in the east....Last week when the local "self defense" forces in Kharkiv (Ukraine's 2nd largest city) rolled into town they stormed and took over city hall.....Then realized they had actually siezed the Opera House...so left and went and found the real City Hall.....Yeah, sure those guys were locals, seems totally legit.....

Shortly thereafter they were run out of town by the locals....Russian speaking locals
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Rusco

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2014, 09:31:01 AM »
Last week when the local "self defense" forces in Kharkiv (Ukraine's 2nd largest city) rolled into town they stormed and took over city hall.....Then realized they had actually siezed the Opera House...so left and went and found the real City Hall.....Yeah, sure those guys were locals, seems totally legit.....

 ;D And another page of crazy world is written...

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Heno

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Re: Another Imperial Day
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2014, 10:35:53 AM »
interesting and very informative stuff billy t. thanks.

so it would appear there are two sides testing where the ukraine stands if they are to take a side. will they want to be autonomous which with western support they might achieve. or do they simply want to benefit from a strong omitted relationship with russia. this would be a key consideration for any invading force from west or east.

i am sure there are benefits to the west if they were to take it. certainly there are resources that would pay their expenses if contracted to them. but the west does not look like they are provoking the situation. russia is making a very clear statement that ukraine will either maintain their allegiance to moscow or they could be forced to. the west appears to making sure that the ukranian people know they have a choice if they choose otherwise.

the thing that surprises me is that the crimea was annexed to russia without much by way of opposition from the west. that can probably be attributed to europe 's dependence on russian energy resources. if it was all out US against russia and europe wasn't in the middle then the US may not have been so willing to stand by.

i'm on linked in, the business social network, and there is a guy from ukraine who is still advertising jobs for experienced western execs to take up and go live there. i think it will be while before he fills them.


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