the middle east takes centre stage again

[Heno]

so it looks like its kicking off big time again. all sorts of interests being protected.

would like to hear the opinions of my learned friends here at our lovely little world of www.newmodelarmy.org

have a look at this



and then here is a little read that provokes thought on all sides

http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2014/07/searing-hypocrisy-west/

[Amandistan]

I think that The county in which I live (U.S.) needs to stay the hell out of it but they probably will not.
Yes, there is a potential threat of terrorism but there always has been.   What will happen is thousands of more innocent people will die, the oil prices will go up,The  economy would be even worse than it is now and America will make even more enemies. Causing even more wars.

In conclusion Obama and Bush are very much the same. There are no good politicians. To be in such a powerful position, you have to be manipulative, unethical and selfish.  I am by no means an expert of politics but there is no saving Iraq.

not the place for the United States to choose Iraq’s leaders.”

That was said by Obama but it seems he changed his mind like the liar he is.

.

[szmurf]

Aside from the murder of teenagers on both sides, it seems rather civilized compared to the sectarian violence in Iraq/Syria.  I guess the Palestinians have no choice but to be civil towards their overlords.

[rick a.]

I think that The county in which I live (U.S.) needs to stay the hell out of it but they probably will not.
Yes, there is a potential threat of terrorism but there always has been.   What will happen is thousands of more innocent people will die, the oil prices will go up,The  economy would be even worse than it is now and America will make even more enemies. Causing even more wars.

In conclusion Obama and Bush are very much the same. There are no good politicians. To be in such a powerful position, you have to be manipulative, unethical and selfish.  I am by no means an expert of politics but there is no saving Iraq.

not the place for the United States to choose Iraq’s leaders.”

That was said by Obama but it seems he changed his mind like the liar he is.
.

Agreed. We don't seem to learn from our mistakes and the arrogance of our government is staggering. No wonder no one takes us seriously anymore. We do have the best killing machine though.........

[ldopas]

Well I understand the immediate response to pillory the US. But come on everyone, its not all the bad old USofA or indeed the west.

Let's not forget that radical religions have a lot, actually most to answer for. Impressionable students most times, or idiots as I like to call them. They read a book written by people hundreds, in Christianity's case thousands of years ago when people thought the earth was flat, put Galileo in prison for daring to suggest the earth wasn't the centre of the universe and so on. Then get a gun and go kill people for what that book said on some spurious notion that they alone have all the answers. Add them to a toxic mix of tribes, religions and a vacuum of democracy, then sprinkle in our interference (AND LETS NOT FORGET PLEASE while we castigate the US) and also Russia, Saudis and China's meddling.

But lets not self flagellate ourselves only please people. Yes we did wrong, but the Geo-political picture is a great deal more complex than shouting at the US! 

And voila, you got a "caliphate" going on. Hey ho back to the middle ages. 

[Amandistan]

True but the U.S. should still stay out of it. Innocent people on both sides will die.

[ldopas]

True but the U.S. should still stay out of it. Innocent people on both sides will die.

Yes, but can you guarantee Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, Syria, Israel, Palestine and China will also stay out? Also can you guarantee to me that the jihadists, who have clearly said and it is unequivocal that they wish to see their flag flying over our government and we "Kafirs" will be as slaves.

I don't think you can. So unless you can guarantee that if we, the west, have nothing to do with it and neither do anyone else then I'm with you.

However that does beg the question, are you and I happy to see the bloodbath and genocide that will inevitably occur as radical nutjobs kill anyone in their path who don't believe their crackpot beliefs, wears the wrong clothing (mostly women of course) and anyone who is gay. Personally I'm not happy to watch that with us sat on our hands. 

Now I'm sure someone we tell me we were part architects or indeed possibly the main architects of all this, though I think radical regions bear most blame. But we don't have time machines, so we can only deal with what is in front of us. 
 

[Danny]

But we don't have time machines, so we can only deal with what is in front of us. 

That is the typical excuse our politicians keep using to avoid taking responsibility for their ****-ups or out and out crimes and justify making the same mistakes over and over again - it's as if I killed somebody and then when the coppers come knocking on my door I told them 'but nothing anyone can do will bring that person back to life now, will it? So why don't you leave me be and forget about it all?' I bet you wouldn't be happy with that.

We have no right to be in the middle east and in any case nothing we've done so far (ever, going all the way back to the crusades) has yielded positive results so I can't see why this time it would.

[Bunny]

I'd buy into the leave it alone argument if it left us alone. But there are numerous arguments around different countries. I understand the thinking in the creation of Israel and also why its unpopular in the Arab world. But Israel would be wiped off the earth IF it was left to itself. I understand why the Taliban needed tackling now but also that America helped set the ball rolling in the 80's. Iraq Im not convinced was anything other than oil but Im also open minded to it funding Al-Qaeda. There are things happening in Iraq that suggest a future negative impact on the west.

So if we stand by and do nothing,  who does?  Or do we let Iraq burn and hope it all sorts itself out. But then when Middle Eastern leaders are shouting about a Caliphate, which would mean war coming to us?

Its not as easy saying its none of our business, when clearly their is a threat to us.

[Master Ray]

Oh, the Middle East... so many problems, so few solutions...

Trying to sort out the problems in this area is like trying to teach algebra to a monkey... it will never work, it was a pointless exercise from the start and both you and the monkey will end up utterly pissed off with each other with potentially nasty consequences...

(Note... not equating the Middle Eastern folks to monkeys, just an analogy...)

The west go into the Middle East?  Interfering that results in bloody conflict.  The west don't go into the Middle East?  More bloody conflict.

It's the Kobayashi Maru...

 

[ldopas]

But we don't have time machines, so we can only deal with what is in front of us. 

That is the typical excuse our politicians keep using to avoid taking responsibility for their ****-ups or out and out crimes and justify making the same mistakes over and over again - it's as if I killed somebody and then when the coppers come knocking on my door I told them 'but nothing anyone can do will bring that person back to life now, will it? So why don't you leave me be and forget about it all?' I bet you wouldn't be happy with that.

We have no right to be in the middle east and in any case nothing we've done so far (ever, going all the way back to the crusades) has yielded positive results so I can't see why this time it would.

Be careful with the crusades reference, I did that for a thesis and its not all the evil west!

But with respect, you are saying absolutely nothing about any solution, but reiterating history (minus of course the difficult Muslim crimes which the left like to leave out).

So tell us all what would your scenario be now....not what is past...but now! Give in to religious nutjobs?

[ldopas]

I'd buy into the leave it alone argument if it left us alone. But there are numerous arguments around different countries. I understand the thinking in the creation of Israel and also why its unpopular in the Arab world. But Israel would be wiped off the earth IF it was left to itself. I understand why the Taliban needed tackling now but also that America helped set the ball rolling in the 80's. Iraq Im not convinced was anything other than oil but Im also open minded to it funding Al-Qaeda. There are things happening in Iraq that suggest a future negative impact on the west.

So if we stand by and do nothing,  who does?  Or do we let Iraq burn and hope it all sorts itself out. But then when Middle Eastern leaders are shouting about a Caliphate, which would mean war coming to us?

Its not as easy saying its none of our business, when clearly their is a threat to us.

Completely right! Yeah we were were part of this. But that was then this is now. This is a threat to all countries not under some sort of religious thumbscrew. This actually united Iran, Russia, US etc. I think its an opportunity to rid ourselves of religious extremism potentially.

[ldopas]

It's the Kobayashi Maru...

Kirk altered that by altering the parameters he was given (god Im a trekkie), we can do this by uniting Iran, Russia and the West against this threat which is a problem for all of us"

[Master Ray]

It's the Kobayashi Maru...

Kirk altered that by altering the parameters he was given (god Im a trekkie), we can do this by uniting Iran, Russia and the West against this threat which is a problem for all of us"

Yay, someone got my sci-fi nerdy reference!!! 

[Amandistan]

So why should we take sides in a religious war that does not even involve us? We can not control relationship of the Sunnis and Shiites and have no place to do so.  There is a thousand years of history and hostility there and it does not involve the U.S. or the western world. We have no place in their civil war.

 The last time this happened countless civilians were killed by bombings. Innocent people who had no part in the war whatsoever. These were not terrorist but the actions of the US fits under the definition of terrorism.
Sadly innocent people will die anyway but a lot more if the U.S. keep it up.

Obama is not the one who may die in this, It is the young adults who are enlisted straight out of school with ideas of patriotism. They will probably be traumatized their whole lives if they survive.