the middle east takes centre stage again

[ldopas]

So why should we take sides in a religious war that does not even involve us? We can not control relationship of the Sunnis and Shiites and have no place to do so.  There is a thousand years of history and hostility there and it does not involve the U.S. or the western world. We have no place in their civil war.

 The last time this happened countless civilians were killed by bombings. Innocent people who had no part in the war whatsoever. These were not terrorist but the actions of the US fits under the definition of terrorism.
Sadly innocent people will die anyway but a lot more if the U.S. keep it up.

Obama is not the one who may die in this, It is the young adults who are enlisted straight out of school with ideas of patriotism. They will probably be traumatized their whole lives if they survive.

The answer to this is very simple. I don't think people can sit back and see gay people beheaded, "kafirs" shot or burned for having the temerity to not follow religious dogma, women oppressed and stoned.

And it very much does involve the west actually, going back a thousand years. Lets not forget that these people have already avowed to spread sharia worldwide. Did you not see the video yesterday where they were boasting about overrunning Spain for example? I'm sorry but if you think we can just turn a blind eye and these people will ignore us, you are very much mistaken.

‘When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.’  Edmund Burke

[Danny]

So tell us all what would your scenario be now....not what is past...but now! Give in to religious nutjobs?

We can only influence what WE do, not others - we stay well out of it cos a) thankfully we no longer have an empire and we have no right to go into someone else's house and tell them what to do, despite what our government seems to think, really, b) in many cases (Afghanistan at the moment being a perfect example) one side isn't really any better than the other, and c) the past clearly teaches us that we ALWAYS end up making things worse if we intervene (getting rid of Saddam Hussein - of whom I was by no means a fan, but was exactly the sort of man needed to keep the religious nutjobs in check, so much so that throughout the 80s he was supported and actively helped by the west - is a prime example of this; the Talibans - another western-created and for a long time backed organisation - is another; getting rid of Gaddafi - the news don't like to report on the mess that Lybia is today, but it is a bloody mess nonetheless - a third one; I could go on).

The other contries (Russia, China, Iran etc.) like I said we cannot influence but the whole 'they're getting involved and so we should too' argument is not considered a valid one even at nursery school.

Then, personally I'd like to see blair and bush tried and sentenced for crimes against humanity perpetuated in Iraq, but sadly I won't be holding my breath on that one

[Heno]

looking forward


remove the $10bn charitable donation to the IDF given by the US government every year

take the massive profits that the bush/rumsfed/cheney junta stole from the region and give it back to provide health, education and food for all to start their own economies independent of fossil fuel

give them control of their resources - not just there but in all of africa so the value is for the people

stand up to israel by allowing sanctions from the UN to be taken for their disgraceful history of human rights abuses instead of vetoing everything since the 60s

reverse many of the settlements and return the land to the palestinians from whom it has been stolen

work with muslim and Palestinian groups in syria, iraq, iran, saudi etc and force them to comply with secular rule and consign religious states to the same level of threat as rogue countries with nuclear power

accelerate the deployment of solar, wind and hydro power and the support technologies to make it an affordable power source to reduce the world economies exposure to oil prices leading to more controlled demand as opposed to the current supply led control

get buy in from everyone that they will participate in discussions leading to a positive outcome

bring new model army, jello biafra and stza crack gigs to the region so that young people have a reference to use when they look at the corruption and senseless violence so that the youth can unite and overthrow the new world order and create a better, brighter, safer future

assume this is going to take a hundred years or more so make sure that people stick to the cause and that vested interests are sidelined when new administration and executive take over. potential disasters like this should be dealt with strategically, like a space program, not tactically like a political football.

[Amandistan]

So why should we take sides in a religious war that does not even involve us? We can not control relationship of the Sunnis and Shiites and have no place to do so.  There is a thousand years of history and hostility there and it does not involve the U.S. or the western world. We have no place in their civil war.

 The last time this happened countless civilians were killed by bombings. Innocent people who had no part in the war whatsoever. These were not terrorist but the actions of the US fits under the definition of terrorism.
Sadly innocent people will die anyway but a lot more if the U.S. keep it up.

Obama is not the one who may die in this, It is the young adults who are enlisted straight out of school with ideas of patriotism. They will probably be traumatized their whole lives if they survive.

The answer to this is very simple. I don't think people can sit back and see gay people beheaded, "kafirs" shot or burned for having the temerity to not follow religious dogma, women oppressed and stoned.

And it very much does involve the west actually, going back a thousand years. Lets not forget that these people have already avowed to spread sharia worldwide. Did you not see the video yesterday where they were boasting about overrunning Spain for example? I'm sorry but if you think we can just turn a blind eye and these people will ignore us, you are very much mistaken.

I agree that these extremists are unethical and their actions are not okay. Nobody wants to sit and do nothing when injustice happens. However, I don't think we can help and will probably make things far worse. We have tried all this before and it just kills more people. We are just sending troops to their death. The current event is basically a Shiite/Sunni civil war. Yes, it's fucked up and inhumane but we can't help them. We will just end up killing innocent people like the last time.

[ldopas]

Interesting dichotomy of both of your views there. Both obviously very colored by your left leaning politics and Heno's green agenda.

Danny is for the do nothing, let them eat there own philosophy. Heno is for direct intervention, presumably Danny won't agree with that as he says we must "force them to comply with secular rule".

Me, I never said Danny that because Russia et al is involved we must be. But there must be a point where we cannot just sit back. Personally I think this is the time to think the unthinkable and reach out to Iran, Russia, China etc and start creating some sort of empathy building some sort of relationship for the future.

Then through discussion and the UN perhaps the world can come up with a solution. Certainly I'm not for us going in unilaterally, I agree it has been a complete **** up. But something must be done, your do nothing option is not going to stop the march of radical religions I'm afraid.

[Amandistan]

The media never mentions that the Zionists in Israel and their ethical cleansing of the Palestinians. It's really sad and depressing that three religions fights over the same piece of land and have for thousands of years. They can't see that they all worship the same god but just don't call it the same.

I am surprised that humans have not blown up the entire planet yet with their ******* beliefs.

[Heno]

mine is not founded on the green agenda. it may complement it in some ways. it is anti greed and corruption.

[Bunny]

So why should we take sides in a religious war that does not even involve us? We can not control relationship of the Sunnis and Shiites and have no place to do so.  There is a thousand years of history and hostility there and it does not involve the U.S. or the western world. We have no place in their civil war.

 The last time this happened countless civilians were killed by bombings. Innocent people who had no part in the war whatsoever. These were not terrorist but the actions of the US fits under the definition of terrorism.
Sadly innocent people will die anyway but a lot more if the U.S. keep it up.

Obama is not the one who may die in this, It is the young adults who are enlisted straight out of school with ideas of patriotism. They will probably be traumatized their whole lives if they survive.

But the instability does as it did in Afghanistan. War is a terrible terrible thing. People die. I dont beleive for one second its a decision anyone takes lightly but Saddam killed his own people too. We had no right to declare war against Germany. We have no link with Poland.I doubt anyone joins any army without knowing their ultimate purpose. Again given the words by ISIS about caliphates how can our way of life not be under threat? Again Id love for the Arab league to sort it without bloodshed but it never happens.

[Amandistan]

Germany during WW2 was different. It was not a jihad or fought with religious extremists who live like they are living in biblical times.  IF there has to be blood shed, then send the politicians and leaders to fight and not people of my generation and younger who have no power. IT's bullshit that rich, over-educated  men (of course not women)  sitting in an office can control so much and treat people like pawns in a chess game. Let them have their arms and legs blown off, be killed by car bombings, suffer from PTSD for the rest of their lives. People say this like it needs to be done yet are not the ones risking their lives for a war that has nothing at all to do with them.

  Last time in Iraq, I knew people who fought and they were not the same. It completely traumatized them and the U.S. government did nothing to help them. They did not have jobs and the government fucked them over.

We can fight but it would never help just like last time. There will just be another extremist group and then another. There will be no end and we will eventually blow up the entire planet and then we will all be dead. Violence is never the correct way to handle anything. Fighting violence with violence just increases the number of casualties. Two wrongs never make a right.

[Bunny]

I hear what you're saying and I understand it completely. This threat of war or any war is two sides with radically different view points, so to that extent WW2 was no different. I disagree it has nothing to do with us. The implication is that it will even if we dont get involved. I dont want to see bombs in Spain, England or America which was the consequence of allowing extremism to prosper. By allowing individuals who want their philosophy to run the world, how can you possibly negotiate that? By and large we are at peace with the Middle East and it is ironic America gets accused of oil greed when many more countries make billions from oil in the Middle East.

Violence unfortunately is the only answer when all else fails. Its part of human nature and always has been. No different to any animal protecting its territory.

I really wish there was another answer. .Master Ray summed it up. Do nothing and risk bloodshed or do something and risk bloodshed..

[St alFonZo]

It is nearly 15 years since DeBono suggested that Marmite be given to the people of the area. Who knows without the possibility of the trouser leg of time whether it would have worked or not, but try anything to stop the death.

The logic, briefly, is this. A lack of zinc makes men irritable and belligerent. You get zinc in yeast, which is fine for your average lover of Mother's Pride. But in the Middle East, the bread is unleavened. Ergo, the great man says, Marmite is the answer to easing the way to peace.

From here; http://www.independent.co.uk/news/de-bonos-marmite-plan-for-peace-in-middle-yeast-1133338.html

All the best

[Bunny]

Rubbish. I love marmite on toast and Im an irritable sod first thing 

[szmurf]

Aside from the murder of teenagers on both sides, it seems rather civilized compared to the sectarian violence in Iraq/Syria.  I guess the Palestinians have no choice but to be civil towards their overlords.

I stand corrected; Not civilized at all.  The Palestinians need their own state.  End of story.

[Amandistan]

Aside from the murder of teenagers on both sides, it seems rather civilized compared to the sectarian violence in Iraq/Syria.  I guess the Palestinians have no choice but to be civil towards their overlords.

I stand corrected; Not civilized at all.  The Palestinians need their own state.  End of story.

I agree. I have read that the Israelis were given the Palestinians land in 1948 by the U.N because of the European Jews persecution during the holocaust. that part is understandable but did they put no thought into where the people native to the area  would go?  That would obviously cause a war especially since a large percentage of Palestinians now live in refugee camps. The Jewish people were just subjected to ethical cleansing in Europe yet the Zionists have done the same to the Palestinians. Is that not hypocritical?

I like though that most Orthodox Jews are completely against Zionism though.