Scottish Independence

[ldopas]

I'm tired to give you a proper reply but will get back to you
For the record though someone else asked my to start the thread i didn't think this was the proper place for it and were all entitled to our own opinion Ps I proud to be a leftie

Hi Pol, I'm not trying to be rude I assure you. We should all be proud to believe in something, no problem there.

I'm just quoting facts and echoing what I've heard a number of English and Welsh folks say.

In the end Scotland has got a win-win I think, you may have not voted yes, but there will be a power shift. however as a leftie, surely you agree in parity so it should go for all the countries, yes?

[Pol]

Firstly i can totally assure you i voted Yes I'm not liar
I totally believe that it can be good for the rest of the country Its up to the rest of the uk to voice their opinions and make the country a better place for everyone.Yes i will fight for my country be it Scotland and the UK

[Anna Woman von NRW]

Ooh, ding-dong! It's all kicking off, Excellent. Fight Fight Fight!!!!!!!!!  (sorry it's Friday night, not gotta deal with that fracking idiot of an MD for 2 days and I'm feeling a bit silly)

In regard to the constituency boundaries in the UK which proscribes how many MP's we get and where they come from lets be clear: it is neither a left nor right issue, it's everyone. What we vote in is a historical carve up of OUR Albion according to ancient feudal bullshit. Baron La De Dah of La-La Land had an estate covering X hundreds of square miles and would provide X number of "men" to the Warband/Militia/Army when the call came - so he got to have 5 MP's. Earl Poncey Woncey Knobhead of Narnia down the road only had a bit of land and only ever sent a few expendable village idiots armed with sticks to the latest bloodfest so he only got 1 MP. Meanwhile, Marquis Didn't He Do Well of ******* You Overville had thousands of acres, sent entire Regiments to the glory killing complete with crockery, cutlery and crystal glasses - him and his mates basically got the House Of Lords. Things got tweaked and  smudged along the way to now but pretty much nothing has changed and it won't, how can it? The same power blocs and influences are still firmly entrenched.

I know that's cynical, scathing and dismissive (it's supposed to be) but it's not ignorant because (and I don't know if I've said this here before) I spent the first 7 years after leaving school in the Civil Service, in the Houses Of Parliament, in the Private Offices of 2 Cabinet Ministers - think "Yes Minister" and you've pretty much got where I worked. And I read - a lot  .

Back to Scotland - Bugger    Really is a blow for all of us but that's the way the dice came up. There'll be shhitloads of talk and words written in the next few weeks but by Christmas we'll all have forgotten it happened. What a waste.

Sorry Pol- can't get you a beer but you can have this 

[Pol]

Ok I'm going to remove this thread soon give anyone interested a chance to reply.
I come on this forum because i love nma people know me where i stay as that guy who is into nma lol.
I don't want to fall out with anyone maybe hope to make a few friends who i can buy a pint  at a gig sometime Being a nma fan sometimes makes it hard to avoid politics I would like to add that Justin said he supported Scottish independence and wanted high to be our new national anthem which would have been very cool

[Shush]

Of coarse its yours to remove mate, but I don't think Idopas meant to offend. I asked you to start the topic because I thought it would be worth the debate, and it has been. Maybe a bit patronising to ask you because I know you are a Scot, but you are, were seeing things there first hand. IMO, the defeat is not a complete defeat. After all, now the powers that be have to come to terms with the solid fact, 45% of the populous are not happy.

And if you are coming to Notts in December, you can buy me a pint 

[Johnz]

I wouldn't remove this thread Pol. Discussion is important and has been somewhat absent from this forum in recent years. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. It forces you to think and deal with other perspectives. To me it disagreeing with someone and disliking someone are entirely different things. I fundamentally disagree on a number of issues with some of my best mates but we're still best mates. I don't think anyone here is having a go at you personally and I for one am interested in what you have to say on the topic.

[Master Ray]

Another NMA-Forumite who doesn't want this thread deleted...   

[Pol]

Ok will agree to leave it
Thanks to everyone for your support

[Johnz]

Good on you Pol. 

With such an even split, it will be interesting to see what the future holds.

It looks like Catalonia is next. It wouldn't surprise me if that one succeeded. Sadly, there seems to be a lot more animosity there.

But back to Scotland. What happens now? With so many people wanting fundamental change surely it can't just go back to business as usual?

[ldopas]

Thanks Shush. Of course I didn't mean to offend, read my posts everyone...they are hardly nasty or combative.

It is a little worrying when you put a contra argument, which of course is absolutely crucial in a democracy, people instantly start saying they will delete the topic. Wow! Shades of Vladimir Putin strategy there! 

A dialogue is about to start about federal democracy in this land, and that is fantastic. It is neither a right nor left issue it is everyone's, and that also is fantastic! Lets not stifle dialogue if inconvenient truths are mentioned!   

[ldopas]

I wouldn't remove this thread Pol. Discussion is important and has been somewhat absent from this forum in recent years. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. It forces you to think and deal with other perspectives. To me it disagreeing with someone and disliking someone are entirely different things. I fundamentally disagree on a number of issues with some of my best mates but we're still best mates. I don't think anyone here is having a go at you personally and I for one am interested in what you have to say on the topic.

Absolutely spot on! I've been on this forum and previous incarnations of the NMA matrix like sites since 2003. There actually, for a band and its followers who are passionate, intelligent and politicized, are not enough topics about important things these days I think.

[Heno]

i feel for scotland and the scottish people

the history is no different to the other parts of the union and the empire in general. it is never good to go back over things too much but in this case there are 45% of the people who wanted an independent scotland, a sovereign country restored to what it was 300 odd years ago. right now they are people without a country and the right to self determination. they might get more powers but they will still be on a leash.

disgusting that the eu didn't step up too. they should have welcomed scotland with open arms as a member state as they do most others. they should've lined up the process that would kick if scotland voted yes.

every last minute threat was made by politicians and corporations to swing it to the no vote. it was disgusting how barefaced they were about saying your sovereignty is not worth as much our corporations profits. scotland has vast natural food resources and supermarkets said that food could get much more expensive. social welfare and health and education were all used. just enough to ensure that they got the result. all areas where they spend their time preoccupying the citizens.

they all could have done so much more to support the scottish people in gaining sovereignty, or at least stay neutral and declare support for what the scottish people chose

keep the faith Pol. We know you are scottish.

[ldopas]

i feel for scotland and the scottish people

the history is no different to the other parts of the union and the empire in general. it is never good to go back over things too much but in this case there are 45% of the people who wanted an independent scotland, a sovereign country restored to what it was 300 odd years ago. right now they are people without a country and the right to self determination. they might get more powers but they will still be on a leash.

disgusting that the eu didn't step up too. they should have welcomed scotland with open arms as a member state as they do most others. they should've lined up the process that would kick if scotland voted yes.

every last minute threat was made by politicians and corporations to swing it to the no vote. it was disgusting how barefaced they were about saying your sovereignty is not worth as much our corporations profits. scotland has vast natural food resources and supermarkets said that food could get much more expensive. social welfare and health and education were all used. just enough to ensure that they got the result. all areas where they spend their time preoccupying the citizens.

they all could have done so much more to support the scottish people in gaining sovereignty, or at least stay neutral and declare support for what the Scottish people chose

keep the faith Pol. We know you are Scottish.

Well I don't think all the economic arguments were just threats. If you look at the demographics and economics of the situation, they would have lost on sheer economy of scale possibly.

However that still doesnt alter the fact that people voted no. I know a lot of Scots, and cowards they are not. So I believe the people who voted no did not do it out of fear, but because they wanted to vote no. We need to start understanding that and stop deflecting the reason for the result on everyone else!

There was a clear democratic process, and the people of Scotland voted no. So lets move on I say to the future!!!

[Heno]

its not deflecting the reason to anyone else. its not blaming anything. its examining a situation. you can't really move on until you understand it.

and they were threats. very real threats. and threats that scottish people obviously took seriously enough to reject independence


 

[Pol]

Ok its probably time for the dust to settle a bit and see where things go from here. The people have spoken and said no whose who did each had there own reasons for doing for which they were many some right and maybe some wrong.
Personally speaking its time to move on and make the best of what we have and make the UK a better place for everyone. I hope the people of the UK will take heart from the Scotland and speak out and stand up for a better fairer place for everyone to live