Author Topic: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?  (Read 3992 times)

BlackCountryMaggiD

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2015, 08:08:56 PM »
Read read and read some more.
Whose binkin shout is it?

ldopas

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2015, 08:11:10 PM »
I never once said anything negative about the English of today. Never once. Some chose to perceive it that way. I was told as a kid by my grandfather how the British marched into Scotland and terrorised our ancestors. They did the same to our Irish ancestors.
How on earth do you want me to side with the British puritans?

It's fact that they terrorized people hundreds of years ago. And even more recently.
But so did many other countries in the world. It's not a criticism of the English.
I am in Cronwall and very much enjoy the people here.

You've mixed up quite a few things here. You say the British "marched" into Scotland, but Britain IS Scotland, Wales, England and N Ireland. so which is it? And to take a tiny part of one bit of history, completely ignore atrocities committed by others (including the Scots and Irish), and then conclude it is all one sided is a bit strange.

Your attitude to your own country is also strange if you don't mind me saying. You tell us the US is evil, oppressive, but forget how much the US has given the world, including being by far the biggest donor of foreign aid. The UK is second by the way.

All I am trying to say is that all countries have done things they were not proud of, but we also need to look at positives as well.

Amandistan

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2015, 08:40:54 PM »
Well, It's not that i don't want to read or am too lazy. It's that i read a page, my mind wanders off and i read it 6 more times.  Then i do it 1,000 more pages.  Unless i am very, very interested in the topic and can hyperfocus.  Sadly that is very few topics. So sadly it's documentary or nothing. I haven't completed a book in two years but have started many. Amphetamine can help me read but it makes me very shaky and nervous.       

The difference between Great Britain and the UK are often confusing to outsiders.   
Yes but back at that time was Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland considered Britain or did they have their own identities?   I ask because I often don't hear people refer to the English army.  It's always British.

I will admit to the IRA being a terrorist group now. With more research i find they actually are worse than the British army. I did not know that they tortured their own members who they thought betrayed them. I somehow thought they were freedom fighters but not anymore.  It was actually a film that taught me this.
Where I'm from is not my home, and neither's where i'm bound.

Shush

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2015, 11:00:19 PM »
Well, it sounds like you are not going to learn the history of the English civil war. Maybe a lucky escape, - if you are not interested it could prove very boring. But,, please learn from experiences like this. If someone gives you an opinion on something, remember it is an opinion, not necessarily a fact. Every coin has two sides.  If someone tells you a story about things that happened, remember they are only telling you the parts they want you to hear.

Pumpkin

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2015, 07:23:19 AM »
Historical events can’t be studied in isolation without the proper context.

Nothing is going to do justice to such a complicated event other than a lot of time spent doing research using various sources. I wouldn't say Cromwell is regarded as a hero, but rather that his historical importance can't be denied.

Cromwell and the Parliamentarians moved against an increasingly authoritarian King Charles I who sought to disregard English law and establish an absolute monarchy akin to what existed at the time in Spain and France, both Catholic countries and sworn enemies of England. This doctrine of The Divine Right of Kings is opposed to English Constitutionalism (Parliament) which is why the Parliament wouldn't take it sitting down. 

By the 1630s and 1640s Anglicanism and Presbyterianism had become firmly established in England and Scotland. Anglicanism had rooted in Ireland, but not with great popularity; Presbyterianism in Ulster was more successful. What came with the more radical Puritanism of the Parliamentarians was an ingrained disdain for Charles I's policies, so there was very little support for his plans of grandeur for himself at the expense of everyone else. This built a firm enough platform for Cromwell to challenge him, and the monarchy itself, successfully. Charles I's reign had already de-stablilised England, Scotland and Ireland for various reasons and there was widespread discontent. 

In Ireland, the Old English (settlers from the Norman period) and Irish Gaels took the side of Charles I and formed a "Catholic Alliance" against Cromwell and the Parliamentarians (The Confederation of Kilkenny). Why? Because of their disdain for the radical Puritanism of Cromwell. That, in combination with the recent massacre of Protestants in Ulster in 1641, convinced Cromwell that Ireland, in particular, posed an equal threat to the English Parliament on par with Charles I. So, the New Model Army landed at Ringsend in Dublin on 15 August, 1649, to lead the offensive. They might well have been signing Vengeance with lyrical modifications, given Cromwell's personal desire to avenge the events of 1641 in Ulster. 

Cromwell, no doubt, was heavy-handed by today's standards. The idea was that if a town surrendered to the military victor, then its inhabitants were spared. If they didn’t surrender, then they would be massacred. Cromwell massacred those in Drogheda, Wexford, Waterford and Clonmel, but spared those in Kilkenny, New Ross and Carlow who agreed to his terms. 

Cromwell’s effect in Ireland was to confiscate land held by Catholics and ban the religion outright. The religion was not only sympathetic to Charles I (who was not Catholic by the way, but wanted to use Catholics in Ireland to support his vision), but also to the monarchies in Spain and France. Religious wars were standard behaviour for the time; The Thirty Years’ War had only recently finished. The Treaty of Augsburg, signed after the war, paved the way for religious harmony, if you could call it such, by expecting citizens to adopt the same religion as the ruler.  It accepted the permanent division of Christendom within the Holy Roman Empire and eventually beyond...

Cuius regio, eius religio

Only Ireland didn’t follow the example of converting to the religion of the victor.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:32:02 AM by Pumpkin »

Amandistan

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2015, 11:35:42 AM »
But the Protestantism was in Ulster due to occupying the land of Catholics from past generation.
So the logic that Cromwell had a reason should apply the same to why the Catholics felt the need to kill protestants.
From my understanding Scotland once had a Catholic population in the highlands.  any time someone occupies another's land will mean conflict.

You can learn a lot by documentaries actually.  A person with ADHD should not be withheld knowledge because it may take a yesr to finish a massive book.
Where I'm from is not my home, and neither's where i'm bound.

c

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2015, 01:20:27 PM »
Scotland had a catholic population but Scotland's take up of Protestantism as espoused by the likes of Knox was more to do with social justice rather than a result of any invasion.


c

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2015, 01:31:33 PM »
But the Protestantism was in Ulster due to occupying the land of Catholics from past generation.
So the logic that Cromwell had a reason should apply the same to why the Catholics felt the need to kill protestants.
From my understanding Scotland once had a Catholic population in the highlands.  any time someone occupies another's land will mean conflict.

You can learn a lot by documentaries actually.  A person with ADHD should not be withheld knowledge because it may take a yesr to finish a massive book.
Don't forget that a lot of the Scots in Scotland had ancestors who had invaded from... Ireland. In Roman times the "Scotti" lived in Ireland.

Another point worth remembering is that Ireland had never been a united country, save for a brief period under Brian Boru (11th century), when unity was enforced by conquest.  Quite when the concept of an Irish nation state came about I don't know. Constant bickering between the smaller kingdoms led to invasions, wars, invitations to settle and so on. It's not a surprise to find that Protestantism has taken hold in parts of Ireland

As an aside if you want to remember the difference between GB and UK etc, the term Great Britain refers to the larger of the two main British Isles. The full name of the country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Tony S

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2015, 02:48:31 PM »
 

The difference between Great Britain and the UK are often confusing to outsiders.   
Yes but back at that time was Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland considered Britain or did they have their own identities?   I ask because I often don't hear people refer to the English army.  It's always British.


It is actually confusing to many British people too in fact ! My understanding for what it's worth is that "Britain" historically referred to the union between England and Wales. Then in 1707 the union was extended with Scotland, and it became "Great Britain".  The "Great" part is referring to the increased size of the nation, rather than anything to do with the country being great, as in really good/brilliant etc, as some would believe.

The current official title of the nation is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". This would indicate that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, but not part of Great Britain ! Though Northern Irish sports people usually compete under the banner of GB in international events. So it's not tremendously straight forward !

ldopas

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2015, 06:27:39 PM »
The current official title of the nation is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". This would indicate that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, but not part of Great Britain ! Though Northern Irish sports people usually compete under the banner of GB in international events. So it's not tremendously straight forward !

Well dont worry, I give it 5 years before it all breaks apart anyway!  ;)

Amandistan

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2015, 06:58:36 PM »
Yes, isn't Scotland going to get Independence? 

To be fair, i was told  "when the Brits weren't there to **** up Ireland ,the Irish did it them-*******-selves. There was a ******* civil War."   

I was also taught various ways to use the F-u-c-k   (since the forum edits the word.)
Before visiting i didn't know **** all about how to use the word. Now i do.  :)
Where I'm from is not my home, and neither's where i'm bound.

Tony S

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2015, 01:27:17 PM »
Yes, isn't Scotland going to get Independence? 


Scotland had a referendum on whether to become independent or not last year. The vote was open to citizens living in Scotland only. The majority voted not to become independent, and stay part of the United Kingdom. There is still a strong independence movement though. Time will tell.

BlackCountryMaggiD

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2015, 01:35:40 PM »
Though Northern Irish sports people usually compete under the banner of GB in international events. So it's not tremendously straight forward !
Norhern Irish athletes have a choice whether to compete for "Team GB" or The ROI team in most sports.
In Rugby Union the Irish team is the ROI and NI.
Whose binkin shout is it?

JohnnyM

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2015, 05:54:14 PM »
Yes, isn't Scotland going to get Independence? 


Scotland had a referendum on whether to become independent or not last year. The vote was open to citizens living in Scotland only. The majority voted not to become independent, and stay part of the United Kingdom. There is still a strong independence movement though. Time will tell.

I reckon they will be independent by 2025 - maybe sooner if Cameron misjudges things and takes the UK out of the EU


ldopas

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Re: Why is Oliver Cromwell regarding as a hero in England?
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2015, 06:31:44 PM »
Yes, isn't Scotland going to get Independence? 


Scotland had a referendum on whether to become independent or not last year. The vote was open to citizens living in Scotland only. The majority voted not to become independent, and stay part of the United Kingdom. There is still a strong independence movement though. Time will tell.

I reckon they will be independent by 2025 - maybe sooner if Cameron misjudges things and takes the UK out of the EU

Well two things there.

To be fair to Cameron, it won't be him "misjudging" it will be the British people voting. Democracy. I for one am on the fence on this one, but I'm certainly not going to vote one way to keep the Scots happy, I'm going to vote with what I think is right. For now I'm undecided, I'm going to listen to the arguments and look at the data.

Secondly, I think you are optimistic. I think the Scots are on their way out now. The majority vote to stay in the UK was tiny and the forces for going are at work 24/7. Personally I think they should go as we seem to be in a loveless marriage at the moment; neither England nor Scotland seem happy!