Greece

[JS]

Of course Greece, like a lot of other countries and individuals, has been 'lent' too much theoretical money, but exactly what the banks, Wall St, The City of London etc learned from 2008 was that it did not matter how many un-repayable loans they make - they will always be bailed out by the tax-payer. So as long as it all looks good on the theoretical balance sheet, they reward themselves and carry on. That is what is not sustainable. There is no one in control of how money in the world works - just a series of computer programmes and drone people to maximise returns so that people who already have the wealth can keep it growing to the detriment of all those that don't. The school of 'trickle-down' economics has been a disaster for the vast majority of people in the World and we are just at the beginning of the consequences.

[Bever]

It's actually quite simple.

http://beta.sambal.be/updates/de-griekse-crisis-uitgelegd-met-kattengifs-f8eec122-4159-4d76-9b2f-cbd8b531f5bc

Sorry, but it is in Dutch

[Pol]

In the last uk election only 36% of voters actually voted tory but hey that's good old British democracy for you So did we really get the government we voted for and deserve.

So what next for Greece Anarchy, riots, looting social unrest whilst the fat cats sit back and the news channels get there dramatic viewer grabbing scenes. Lets hope not

[c]

In the last uk election only 36% of voters actually voted tory but hey that's good old British democracy for you So did we really get the government we voted for and deserve.

be careful what you wish for. If seats were doled out purely in relation to the way votes were cast, we'd have UKIP MPs now.

[c]

Of course Greece, like a lot of other countries and individuals, has been 'lent' too much theoretical money, but exactly what the banks, Wall St, The City of London etc learned from 2008 was that it did not matter how many un-repayable loans they make - they will always be bailed out by the tax-payer.

Except of course Lehmanns which the US did not bail out.

And the Icelandic banks too.

If other banks had been allowed to go to the wall, the real losers would have been as always the poorest - not necessarily because they lost savings but because their employers would have been unable to borrow effectively meaning their jobs would have been lost.

Part of the problem with this is that the Euro was always a triumph of hope over reality - it would only work if the economies of the countries who are members were roughly in step or could keep in step by managing tax rates, interest rates, money supply, government spending - and even from day one there were about four or five economies which actually met the supposed criteria; Germany, Luxembourg, Netherlands and I think Belgium and possibly Ireland. The French didn't and Greece certainly didn't - but the political dream was allowed to supersede the figures. And by surrendering some of the national control over how to balance books the Greek people (and the Spanish and the Irish and the Cypriots etc) are suffering. If Greece had retained the drachma, they could have tried to tax and spend or borrow and spend their way out of their difficulties. Maybe they would have succeeded.

Maybe we are reaching the start of the end of "the system". More likely we are making our way towards a variation of what has gone on before. If lessons are learned maybe  the variation may include more cutting our cloth accordingly both as individuals and countries - and that in my opinion would be a generally good thing.

[ldopas]

Of course Greece, like a lot of other countries and individuals, has been 'lent' too much theoretical money, but exactly what the banks, Wall St, The City of London etc learned from 2008 was that it did not matter how many un-repayable loans they make - they will always be bailed out by the tax-payer. So as long as it all looks good on the theoretical balance sheet, they reward themselves and carry on. That is what is not sustainable. There is no one in control of how money in the world works - just a series of computer programmes and drone people to maximise returns so that people who already have the wealth can keep it growing to the detriment of all those that don't. The school of 'trickle-down' economics has been a disaster for the vast majority of people in the World and we are just at the beginning of the consequences.

Ah the old "theoretical money" argument. Actually it was real money, it may have moved around a balance sheet but at some point people draw it out of a cash machine. Real money.

In the end if we extend your logic, no one is really in control of anything, it has all got too big anyway.

[Amandistan]

https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/135

This article may be of some interest here.  The attitude that the people of Germany and Belgium have toward the Greeks is horrible. 



Quote from the article (not mine)

"The people of Europe need to realise that they were all played, too. Taxpayers' money was pumped, not into Greece, but into failing banks, like everywhere else. Profit has been privatised and risk nationalised. They need to stop blaming the canary for coming up from the mine half dead. "

[Bever]

https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/135

This article may be of some interest here.  The attitude that the people of Germany and Belgium have toward the Greeks is horrible. 

What have we done now!? I don't read anything about the Belgian people in your article to be honest. Not even the Belgian government.

Mind you, our government right now is... well... let's not go there... But do not confuse the government with "the people".

[Amandistan]

Ok sorry the government not people. it does mention Brussels though and that's in Belgium.
I will step out of this topic because I don't know enough.

[Master Ray]

Me too, Amandistan.  Trying to explain / understand the utterly poisonous spiders-web of current European economics to me is like trying to explain algebra to a fish.  I'm not a stupid man, I've tried, truly I have, but the only sense I can make out of it is that the whole thing was doomed from the start, there's no easy way out of it and a lot of innocent ordinary folks are going to suffer because of it...

Still, a lot of political folks are making a lot of money out of it, so that's something...   

[Heno]

When asked recently about Greek Debt Restructuring the Irish PM here said "No way, not a consideration. They are either in or out."

The Greeks have voted against accepting the demands of the debt holders. And, guess what, the message from the Irish PM and the parties here changes to "debt restructuring was always going to be required". And that message changed within minutes of the result in Greece.

What will be interesting is how far they will go to support Greece and what that means for other people who have suffered oppression for the sake of bondholder interests. That is the huge problem. How can they possibly give concessions to Greece when it would be required to extend similar concessions to Ireland, Spain, Portugal, and even Itialy.

And if there is going to be an exit then likelihood is we will see regional conflict escalate to focus peoples minds, consumer prices go through the roof, and holidays in Greece being worth every Drachma if you can tolerate the risk of ISIS interfering as the new weapon of fear.

At the end of all of this, what I find insulting is that they think this oppression can continue on a global scale. They underestimate the pace of change that technology is driving and the transparency that it brings. Going to be an interesting few decades.

[Spudthemariner]

Ok sorry the government not people. it does mention Brussels though and that's in Belgium.
I will step out of this topic because I don't know enough.

Amanda, in political terms, when articles mention 'Brussels', they invariably mean the EU as an organization (as that is where the EU HQ is based), as opposed to the Belgium people and Government!

[jackroadkill]

This is so complicated an issue that I don't think that there's a "right" way around it.  If there is, I can't see it.  Someone is going to end up getting royally buggered, and I have a feeling that it will be the working, taxpaying people of Greece.

Unsustainable debts to foreign banks and governments is nothing new, after all.  Third World debt is still alive and thriving - how the hell can Greece expect any relief when the money-grabbers won't cancel the debts of countries where 90% of the workforce live in poverty?

I think that the bail-out culture that we live in (at least for banks and governments) is purely aimed at making more money for those that already have so much that it's become meaningless.  If we want to do anything about helping people in other countries develop their societies, maybe debt relief / cancellation should be our way forward.

As I said, I don't know.  I just hope that the Greek people don't get too badly screwed over when the politicians and ******-bankers are picking over the corpse of their economic recover.

[ldopas]

jackroadkill I agree with a lot of what you say, but do you not think the Greeks bear some responsibility as well?

It is ok to shout about evil banks and the EU, but in the end the Greeks had to take bailouts because they spend far to much on state largesse and their tax collecting system is one of the poorest in the western world. No money just comes from a bank, for banks to have money they must get it from people who work hard and taxes from people who work hard. So we can say evil banks, but in the end that is your and my money!

I do accept that the EU and the IMF have played a long term silly game here as well. And screwing Greece to the ground means we, the taxpayer, will never get our money back! So again that is not at all clever.

As everyone says here, it is complex. On one hand we have Greece who borrowed the cash, have done little to reform their economy and now won't/can't pay our money back and the EU/IMF who are so invested in this EU superstate one currency thing, they are not thinking logically and will do anything to keep their centralising experiment on track. I'm just happy I live here at the moment! 

[Amandistan]

Ok sorry the government not people. it does mention Brussels though and that's in Belgium.
I will step out of this topic because I don't know enough.

Amanda, in political terms, when articles mention 'Brussels', they invariably mean the EU as an organization (as that is where the EU HQ is based), as opposed to the Belgium people and Government!

I knew the EU headquarters was in Brussels.  It just did not register with me in the article.
That's why I need to keep out of such conversations.