Euthanasia: for or against?

[Amandistan]

I just can't grasp this idea. People who get the death penalty usually murder someone. They are not good people.

However this girl has not done that. She can be medicated or have some sort put in a hospital not killed.
I can't believe that people are okay with this. It's taking life even if she wants to die.

I am against the death penalty and against this as well. 

[Bever]

She can be medicated or have some sort put in a hospital not killed.

Oh, that's a great idea. Why didn't those unadvanced Belgians think of that? Medication! How did they miss that?

[ldopas]

She can be medicated or have some sort put in a hospital not killed.

Oh, that's a great idea. Why didn't those unadvanced Belgians think of that? Medication! How did they miss that?

Firstly, can I point out how incredibly rude you are to other posters. Amanda is giving us background information on herself and using that to put her views. Nowhere did she insult you or Belgium. I personally do not think Belgians are "unadvanced", but I'm beginning to doubt their manners if you are an example.

So can we please discuss things like adults, note that we don't all agree here, but do you see the rest of us being abusive to each other? No.

Secondly, I did read your article, I also noted you said "So either she does it herself with all risks involved. Or it is done properly." Trying to kill yourself or having someone else do it always involves risks, surely if she really wanted to die she has had 24 years to do it, including throwing herself of a high building or standing on train tracks?

I also think the term killing yourself "properly" is wrought with so many issues I do not know where to start.

[ldopas]

Okay, so where would you stand on say, a person who was previously very physical/involed in the arts of some kind maybe, who through illness or accident finds themselves paralysed and never able to do any off the things previously able to again. Said person may not be in pain and could potentially live for a long time, and yet, it could be utter torment mentally for the patient.

Good question, and my answer is that again it is a physical impairment, the fact that they want to die because their physical injury has effected them is something to look at. But take locked in syndrome, not all people want to die because of the scenario you painted, take Jason Becker for example.

There is another element to your scenario, that person being paralysed would probably also not be able to take their own life, this girl (and sorry to sound brutal) can take action herself. Which begs the question why she hasn't and want's help.

I hear what you say about Belgium, up to them their land their laws. But for me allowing underage people, many of whom have probably not yet developed or found themselves access to euthanasia is chilling.

[Bever]

Firstly, can I point out how incredibly rude you are to other posters. Amanda is giving us background information on herself and using that to put her views. Nowhere did she insult you or Belgium. I personally do not think Belgians are "unadvanced", but I'm beginning to doubt their manners if you are an example.

Well, reading the OP would point you in the right direction:

"How on earth is this an advanced country  if they do this sort of thing"

Trying to kill yourself or having someone else do it always involves risks, surely if she really wanted to die she has had 24 years to do it, including throwing herself of a high building or standing on train tracks?

If you think throwing yourself from a building or standing in front of a train, traumatizing people involved (I happen to know people that had to quit their job as train driver because they ran over somebody that wanted to die), is the same as getting a lethal injection from a qualified doctor in serene circumstances, then we are done discussing...

This person wants to die. Help her doing it in a humane way if medical science says she has no way of recovering. It's her choice to make, not ours.

Just because pain is mental, doesn't mean it is less worthy of euthanasia than physical pain is.

[Bever]

But for me allowing underage people, many of whom have probably not yet developed or found themselves access to euthanasia is chilling.

It is chilling. I have kids. It's disastrous. However, shit happens. And euthanasia for underaged would probably never be allowed for mental illness. We are talking advanced cancer and other fun stuff like that.

That being said. I don't have the latest figures, but up until 3 months ago, there hasn't been any case of euthanasia on an underaged in Belgium. But the option is there if shit really hits the fan.

[ldopas]

Well, reading the OP would point you in the right direction:

"How on earth is this an advanced country  if they do this sort of thing"

That is a perfectly decent question, not an insult. To be fair to Amanda she insults her own country far more.

If you think throwing yourself from a building or standing in front of a train, traumatizing people involved (I happen to know people that had to quit their job as train driver because they ran over somebody that wanted to die), is the same as getting a lethal injection from a qualified doctor in serene circumstances, then we are done discussing...

Of course it isn't and you have completely missed my point. My point is if you are that suicidal, and asking to be legally killed then the fact you are capable of doing it yet haven't might lead you to believe it may be a cry for help.

...oh and if your last sentence means that if you disagree with something I said, then we are "done discussing", then most free speech and opinion is gone.

[Shush]

I think you both make good points, if a little heated. I am not familiar with the details and circumstances of the 24 year old Belgian girl, but the idea of someone able bodied and being allowed to opt for euthanasia does not sit well with me.
     At the end of the day, anyone who is able-bodied is capable of killing themselves and any medical services should do all it can to persuade them to do otherwise. If we were to have a euthanasia service in the U.K. in my opinion it should be just for the terminally ill, and maybe for people who have become severely handicapped, the later after much counselling and referrals.
     As I said before, I would feel concerned that people who were in the above positions may feel obliged to choose euthanasia if it were available whereas otherwise they may want to hold onto life for as long as they could without such pressure. I have known two people close to be who were terminally ill with cancer. One held on and eventually died in a hospice, the other weeks before his death was pleading to be given a firearm and eventually died at home.
    I suppose every case is unique and needs judging carefully each time, but personally I do believe there is room for a euthanasia service in some way shape or form. I truly hope neither you or I ever need it. 

[Amandistan]

Well, perhaps it sounded like an insult to Belgium.  However it's not meant to be.  It's this one issue that is.
All the I saw of Belgium is the train station and airport so can't comment on it.

I was deeply disturbed  by this post. I am atheist now but was raised in a very strict catholic family. I was taught that this is immoral.   Despite no longer being catholic, I cannot shed all of the morals. 

I find this and abortion and the death penalty disturbing  and the loss of all human life. It's not to say I disagree with all.  I only disagree with the DP.  I know that Sweden and the Netherlands and all the wealthy EU countries agree with this.

[Bever]

I fully understand people having difficulties with this. It's ending a human life. If that doesn't touch you, what will? I just don't agree that because we have the freedom in Belgium to at least apply for euthanasia (it is never guaranteed, it is case by case and judged by 3 doctors), it would mean the country is not advanced. I'd say quite on the contrary, as it provides citizens with a big level of freedom. Maybe I was a bit short fused, and for that I apologize.

Other than that, I still see people pleading for euthanasia, or at least understanding it, when physical illness is involved. However, when somebody is mentally suffering, and has tried all available treatments to no avail, euthanasia is wrong. I don't make that distinction. It's all about quality of life.

I was raised catholic as well. But not in a very strict way. My parents -still church goers- have no problem with euthanasia and abortion. Both legal in Belgium, both under strict rules. I'm an agnostic now. To their dismay All in all I think -despite the catholic background- I come from a pretty left-wing family, which probably explains my stance.

[Master Ray]

Well, perhaps it sounded like an insult to Belgium.  However it's not meant to be.  It's this one issue that is.
All the I saw of Belgium is the train station and airport so can't comment on it.

I was deeply disturbed  by this post. I am atheist now but was raised in a very strict catholic family. I was taught that this is immoral.   Despite no longer being catholic, I cannot shed all of the morals. 

I find this and abortion and the death penalty disturbing  and the loss of all human life. It's not to say I disagree with all.  I only disagree with the DP.  I know that Sweden and the Netherlands and all the wealthy EU countries agree with this.

For me, it boils down as simply as this.  Do you believe that it's OK to have a human being physically suffering when there is no hope of recovery?  I'm not talking about depression, which is a real and awful thing, but surmountable or at least liveable with the right care.  I'm talking about the twisted shit that the body can do to you.  Yeah, cancer, MND, strokes, leukemia and so many of the other 'natural' things that God mysteriously sends our way to show how much HE loves us...

Yup, I brought up God because the whole religion thing seems to be why so many people are against euthanasia.  Not ALL, but some, and hey, Catholicism has been brought up already!  I'll say at this point I DO respect peoples religious beliefs, but I personally don't believe in an afterlife or Heaven or Valhalla or whatever... I believe in the human condition and what happens in the brief time we're on this little bauble we call Planet Earth... and I remember having a similar conversation with a Catholic some years ago and having her say 'euthanasia is a sin against God!'

**** off, quite frankly.  I'll take on board what God thinks about euthanasia when I find out what Father Christmas has to say about the whole thing...   

I just think about people suffering undeservedly.  there's no need for it.  The sick people and their families would, I'm sure, agree.

By the way, I'm also pro-choice (seeing as it was mentioned earlier), so that's me going to Hell twice-over... 

[Sheena]

I'm not sure where I stand on this personally, but I do want to put forward 3 thoughts:

1.  Being suicidal and rational are not mutually exclusive - and this is the position of some mental health professionals. 

2.  Speaking ethically, respect for autonomy as a prima facie right could be taken to its natural conclusion; and so provide a framework to support a person to die if that is their wish.

3.  None of us can fully know how another human being experiences life and it is as risky to presume a quality of life for another as it is to presume that there is no quality of life.

However, on the other hand I am culturally (and possibly biologically) predisposed to preserve life; and I worry that euthanasia might become corrupt or broken. 

My fence is comfy for now...

[ldopas]

Sheena, great post and completely agree.

In fact your point 3 is so good, to me it rings out how careful we must be about this whole issue.

[Bever]

Sheena, great post and completely agree.

In fact your point 3 is so good, to me it rings out how careful we must be about this whole issue.

We must be extremely careful! That's why it is so strictly regulated and you need 3 doctors to approve. And that's why it can take so long.

However, let's not kid ourselves, euthanasia existed long before it was legalized. And it exists in countries where it is not legalized. On a larger scale than you probably want or think. Even for the underaged that are torn apart by horrendous diseases. What the Belgian lawmakers did was provide a framework. This to prevent doctors from being prosecuted for conducting euthanasia and to protect the patient by having him go through a second and third opinion. In essence, like it or not, we legalized a situation that was already there, and is already there in many other countries, to protect both doctor and patient.