Author Topic: Oskar Groening  (Read 1858 times)

Pol

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Oskar Groening
« on: July 15, 2015, 05:47:34 PM »
I just wanted to get others opinion on Oskar Groening the bookkeeper of Auschwitz.
Do you think it was right that a 94 year old man who uses a walking aid was given a 4 year sentence for his part in the death/murder of 300,000 people during his time at the nazi death camp. A guard who was a small cog in the machine. It now seems that he probably won't serve any time in prison.
So what do you think Should he have got longer, the death sentence even or was it all just a show trial where the money spent could have done far better things for the victims families
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Amandistan

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2015, 06:06:46 PM »
He knew people were being sent to the gas chamber next and he knew he worked at a death camp.
4 years is not long enough. He should be in a cell until he dies and not one of those nice, comfortable prisons like they have in the Netherlands.  He needs to be subjected to misery in the last years of his life. It will never match what the victims of the holocaust have been through. Not even close.
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Master Ray

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2015, 08:11:16 PM »
Tough one but... we're assuming that everyone German in the 40's was an evil murderous bastard.

Now, I doubt that anyone there was unaware of what was going on.  And it is one of the greatest horrors that ever happened on this planet.  But these were hysterical brainwashed times from a country broken down after their failure in WW1 and are suddenly being told, from a charismatic and passionate new leader (and Hitler MUST have had that power!) they are the new leaders of Europe and they don't have to be broken anymore.

The best of people can become sheep when they're down on their knees.  And they act accordingly.

I am not excusing, for a single f-ing second, the true horrors of the Holocaust.  Watch 'Night Must Fall', a documentary that brought me to tears when I watched it.  You will cry too.

But when the machinery gets going, some are given a job to do and do it because there is no other choice.  This guy was about 20 when he was working there?  A very small cog in a big machine.  And if he refused in the face of those insane bastards?  I suspect it wouldn't have ended well for this kid.

And hasn't he already been in documentaries about The Holocaust, talking about how awful it was? He's not exactly been secretive about his little involvement...  ???

Bottom line... if it is proved that he murdered a single person, I say let the sentence stand.  If not and he was just a kid keeping his head down in the face of utter f-ing evil / insanity, I'd say this whole thing is a waste of time and just some show-trial...

 :o


« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 09:36:31 PM by Master Ray »
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Amandistan

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2015, 08:29:41 PM »
Tough one but... we're assuming that everyone German in the 40's was an evil murderous bastard.

Now, I doubt that anyone there was unaware of what was going on.  And it one of the greatest horrors that ever happened on this planet.  But these were hysterical brainwashed times from a country broken down after their failure in WW1 and are suddenly being told, from a charismatic and passionate new leader (and Hitler MUST have had that power!) they are the new leaders of Europe and they don't have to be broken anymore.

The best of people can become sheep when they're down on their knees.  And they act accordingly.

I am not excusing, for a single f-ing second, the true horrors of the Holocaust.  Watch 'Night Must Fall', a documentary that brought me to tears when I watched it.  You will cry too.

But when the machinery gets going, some are given a job to do and do it because there is no other choice.  This guy was about 20 when he was working there?  A very small cog in a big machine.  And if he refused in the face of those insane bastards?  I suspect it wouldn't have ended well for this kid.

And hasn't he already been in documentaries about The Holocaust, talking about how awful it was? He's not exactly been secretive about his little involvement...  ???

Bottom line... if it is proved that he murdered a single person, I say let the sentence stand.  If not and he was just a kid keeping his head down in the face of utter f-ing evil / insanity, I'd say this whole thing is a waste of time and just some show-trial...

 :o
And the people who did speak out about it were probably afraid of being killed
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marius

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2015, 08:48:11 PM »
[
not one of those nice, comfortable prisons like they have in the Netherlands. 

O yes, Dutch prisons are like hotels. I can hear Geert Wilders saying that, but why do you???

Master Ray

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2015, 08:48:31 PM »
Agreed, A... so perhaps a revision of your original opinion?   :(
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Heno

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2015, 09:49:17 PM »
sorry. but i pick up headlines online. i tend not to read the detail since it changes from site to site and paper to paper.

the bloke is a 94 year old retired bookkeeper. what a great age. his crimes are 70 years old. is he the poster boy of stormfront? or the bnp? or the rest of the fascist scum?

probably not. why don't they go after those that are alive today? the evil that is everywhere around us. why not hunt them down in the name of the innocents in the middle east, in south east asia, in central and southern america, in africa, europe and north america. why not hunt down the bankers and executives who have caused some of the worst hardship in human history over the last 20 years when the 95% of the world that are third world can see the affluence of power on their mobile phones.

genuinely no disrespect but i guess its easier to publish the story of an evil monstrous nazi bookkeeper than it is to publish the name of your bosses cronies.   


He was there. he didn't cause it. he couldn't end it. he was probably only surviving during those times. and is ashamed of himself ever more.
you think you're alive motherfucker?
you're just the walking fucking dead.

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2015, 12:03:01 AM »
Personally I think its all a bit of a farce and perhaps a bit insulting to the countless victims of numerous atrocities who's perpetrators are not even perused.
   I think its also a bit sad the reason Groening was brought to public attention is because he made his role at Auschwitz publically known in order to dismiss ridiculous claims by the far right that the holocaust never even happened.
   The pursuit of those who actively took part in the holocaust has always been a just cause. From the naming of war criminals at the Nuremberg trials, and later the work of Simon Wiesenthal and Mossad.  But, if this particular SS office worker or accountant is to be held responsible, then every one of the many many thousands involved with the holocaust from admin in Berlin, the German Police, transport, every member of the Allgemeine SS, SA, etc etc should have been held responsible and dealt with in the relevant decades after the war. In law today it is a serious offence not to report a murder. From that should we hold a large portion of the wartime German population to account ?
   We have never sought justice or revenge for the millions of slave labourers working in German factories and farms during the war. factories like BWM, AEG, Opel, etc all surviving production demands and bombing raids through their forced labour workforce which also faced atrocities on a daily basis, numerous thousands dying in the process. But, we have never sought members of the R.A.D , all the wartime admin, politicians or any of the factories that profited and survived the war to grow from strength to strength.   
  If an accountant at Auschwitz is worthy of trial, why not every single member of Waffen-SS division Dirlewanger and every other major SS related atrocity. And if for WW2 genocide it is right to imprison an accountant, should we start to finally look into the millions of victims of countless atrocities committed by the  U.S.S.R by the likes of the N.K.V.D. such as the 1941 Katyn forest massacre.  The Japanese in China, numerous genocides in Africa and rest of the World  since the war, the list is never ending.
   This is a case of an old man trying to do the right thing in dismissing the holocaust deniers, and maybe in a small way try to  atone for his part in it. A show trial for modern Germany to distance itself from its regrettable past.
   

Anna Woman von NRW

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2015, 08:46:57 PM »
I don't care how old, I don't care how close to Deaths door. Put them on trial and if guilty = Life imprisonment. If I agreed with the Death penalty ...

You won't change my opinion, I'm not trying to change yours. But Pol asked for opinions and that's mine.

Go listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d2xpjoP63Q
Waving at the devil that I know and the devil that I don't

Heno

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2015, 09:07:19 PM »
but


is it enough to say you are guilty because you stood by probably for fear of your own life. and having been raised in a strict orthodox environment where questioning superiors was a disgrace? if we try to put ourselves in the same position, and strip back the effects of the propaganda we have been saturated with since birth, then surely we can see that there is a chance that this man was not complicit at all. he just couldn't stop it.

help me here a little anna


if i work somewhere like that. and everyday i see things happening that shouldn't. and also know that to speak out would mean certain death for me. certain death. and that my death if i do speak out makes no difference. so i do nothing. the same nothing that we all accept today. am i then as guilty of crime as this man? i don't think so.

**** martyrdom

we should be exploring this mans memories that are contemporaneous with some of the most tragic and despicable human behavior ever (apart of scouse suits at fa cup wembley '96) and value the insight we can gain.


that is of course if he was just a bookkeeper
you think you're alive motherfucker?
you're just the walking fucking dead.

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2015, 11:15:44 PM »
Lets not excuse this man too much Heno. After all, he was a member of the SS and would have gone through the same selection process of other members even if a book keeper. But, there were at its peak around 1 million members of the SS. An SS accountant has been sentenced when there are still alive members of SS death squads. This is what I am struggling to come to terms with, especially when this accountant has exposed himself in order to dismiss the modern day extreme right-wing.
   Would it not make more sense having this man take part in group talks, information gatherings with young people at schools, colleges etc. In the face of ridiculous far-right claims that the holocaust did not happen, we have someone here prepared to say - yes it did, I was there, I witnessed it .
  Anna, not sure if your post was aimed at me or Heno but, I would want to hear your opinion, not change it  I would not want to try to force mine on you. At the end of the day, say what we like about this or anything else, its not going to change anything.
      Regards the link to the song Vengeance and its related lyrics, it was written about Klaus Barbie.  Senior SS officer, mass murderer, sadist, rapist who escaped justice in 1945. Rather than being executed for his many crimes after the war he was employed by the U.S. secret service. Not a shining example of justice. As I said in my last, the work of Simon Wiesenthal and Mossad perusing the high ranking decision makers in South America in particular was all for the good. The lack of effort by the wars victors in post-war years in decades past to find these men, not very impressive. 

Amandistan

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2015, 09:14:57 AM »
Thatte author=marius link=topic=8859.msg151561#msg151561 date=1436993291]
[
not one of those nice, comfortable prisons like they have in the Netherlands. 

O yes, Dutch prisons are like hotels. I can hear Geert Wilders saying that, but why do you???
[/quote]
I say that because I am repeating a dutch person.
they said even murders stay in comfortable prisons.
Where I'm from is not my home, and neither's where i'm bound.

Anna Woman von NRW

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2015, 06:29:49 PM »
The "you" in my post was a general one and not aimed at anyone in particular. I posted the link to reinforce how strongly I feel about this.

Systematic extermination of 11 million people didn't happen just because of a handful of leaders. It takes a lot of people to make it happen. If someone was part of the process then stand them in front of a court and hold them to account.

And if found guilty they should be punished.
Waving at the devil that I know and the devil that I don't

Heno

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2015, 06:32:00 PM »
so we're for getting the bastard
you think you're alive motherfucker?
you're just the walking fucking dead.

Pol

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Re: Oskar Groening
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2015, 06:41:42 PM »
I would like to thank everyone for their opinions and viewpoints and they are much appreciated and its good to know that lively debate is still alive and kicking. Everyone's opinion has been very much respected.
I started the post because I was angry and confused at myself for somewhat feeling sorry for him and thinking why am I feeling like this

Please keep your views coming n thanks everyone
Weirdo   Mosher   Freak.

Stamp Out Prejudice Hatred Intolerance Everywhere
Not Vengeance  -  Punishment  !