Should symbols of occupation and hatred be banned?

[Amandistan]

So I did a language immersion program in Poland. It was wonderful. 

I however noticed the palace of culture in Warsaw.
It's Stalin's building and basically screams occupation and mass murder. Many Polish would agree.
Do you think such a building should be torn down out of respect?
The man basically ordered his troops to let the nazis come in and wipe-out  the entire city of Warsaw.
He is not better and killed more people than the nazis.


The same with other symbols. Like the confederate flag in America?

[Master Ray]

Interesting debate.. the flip-side of the coin is something like Auschwitz, left up as a 'never again' kind of thing... bulldozing something into dust just guarantees that it'll be forgotten within a generation or two...

[Amandistan]

I agree. I think Auschwitz is good to remind people that it did happen and it must never, ever happen again.
I learned so much from the people of Poland in the past week. I just find it hear to imagine that within 100 years, they were terrorized by two brutal occupations.  It's just very heavy and speaking to people who have experienced the soviet occupation personally and who have family that experienced the nazis, is humbling. It's something that makes us feel our own issues are meaningless.

[Master Ray]

I agree. I think Auschwitz is good to remind people that it did happen and it must never, ever happen again.
I learned so much from the people of Poland in the past week. I just find it hear to imagine that within 100 years, they were terrorized by two brutal occupations.  It's just very heavy and speaking to people who have experienced the soviet occupation personally and who have family that experienced the nazis, is humbling. It's something that makes us feel our own issues are meaningless.

And perhaps that's something to be remembered when you're feeling as low as you often do, judging by some of your posts here?

[Bunny]

Flip side of the coin. The Taliban/ISIS destroying heritage sites as they dont fit in with the way they think. Kind of the same argument I guess but from another perspective.
Im not sure i agree with bulldozing anyones past completely. Sometimes you have to know what has been before.

[Shush]

So I did a language immersion program in Poland. It was wonderful. 

I however noticed the palace of culture in Warsaw.
It's Stalin's building and basically screams occupation and mass murder. Many Polish would agree.
Do you think such a building should be torn down out of respect?
The man basically ordered his troops to let the nazis come in and wipe-out  the entire city of Warsaw.
He is not better and killed more people than the nazis.


The same with other symbols. Like the confederate flag in America?

The Palace of culture is indeed a saw point with the Poles. A "gift" from Stalin as a thank you to the Poles for the help in defeating Nazi Germany. First of all, to built it they had to clear away foundations of important Warsaw buildings that could otherwise have been re-built. When the Polish Republic was re-established in 1989, the Warsaw population did discuss whether or not to pull it down. At the end of the day the building now is part of Poland history, so the decided to keep it. You do get a good view of the city from the top also. 

Amanda if you are interested in learning more about such things, out of the city centre, not quite in the tourist zone you can visit the Warsaw Rising Museum. A wonderful museum built out of an old factory and visited daily by groups of Polish school children

As for the banning of flags and symbols, I would say no. I remember in the 1980's naughty boys would draw a swastika on a wall for shock. You never see them around here anymore. The last time I saw one was on a wall was in Munich -- where it is banned and still has shock value. If you ban such things you give them a sense of mystique and danger and dare. You make them attractive and exciting to the week minded.. Better to maintain and teach. It is like the whole question of Auschwitz camp. A disgusting insult to  humanity that should have been burned in 1945 ----  or the most important historical site in the world that should be preserved and shown to all as proof of what happened and as a deterrent for the future

[Amandistan]

You do have a good point.  I talked to some polish people who would not mind if the building was burned down.
One older polish man said that he won't visit Auschwitz ever because it might make him hate the germans. He did not want to do that. I think I will try to visit it in the next two weeks.

[ldopas]

As for the banning of flags and symbols, I would say no. I remember in the 1980's naughty boys would draw a swastika on a wall for shock. You never see them around here anymore. The last time I saw one was on a wall was in Munich -- where it is banned and still has shock value. If you ban such things you give them a sense of mystique and danger and dare. You make them attractive and exciting to the week minded.

Absolutely right, I agree!

We MUST see, hear, read shit that we believe to be offensive and outrageous. How else can we see the problem and challenge it. Banning only makes it sexy to a section of society and also some people seem happy (often online sadly it seems) to push revolting views because it is banned by "authority", as if they are somehow freedom fighters.

[Pol]

Its not the symbols that's the problem, its the people who hijack them. I would say that the sale of nazi memorabilia should be banned in the UK as it is in other countries .

[Shush]

Its not the symbols that's the problem, its the people who hijack them. I would say that the sale of nazi memorabilia should be banned in the UK as it is in other countries .

Is that not a contradiction ?

Also, banned where ? Ebay is not the be all and end all of the retail world.

[Coumarin]

my dad passed away just a few days before his 80th and Christmas last year. he had a girlfriend to his dying day. me and my sister knew this of course and accepted her. we knew she was polish and that's all we knew. it seemed that was all he wanted us to know, so, we respected that. she never showed us her "tattoo" until after his funeral. she was a little older than him. he went into national service in the royal navy in the 1950s so I would imagine she is about 10 years or so older. We keep in touch with her often and treat her as a member of the family as if ours. but she never says anything. im sure my dad took those secrets to the grave with him, and would never speak of it either.

martin

[Master Ray]

A moving story, Martin, thanks for sharing.

Pol, I have to agree with Shush, but I suppose it depends on what you do with it.  If someone gets hold of, say, a rusty Nazi-related dagger as a piece of history then fine.  If they regard it as something admirable and it fuels their fire then that's a problem... but how can that be regulated?  And lets face it, a rusty British Army knife could be equally exciting to someone from the BNP...

Ideals, not relics, are what's dangerous... 

[Anna Woman von NRW]

A moving story, Martin, thanks for sharing.

That goes for me too
Anna
x

[lotus]

Poland now and Poland in the past
The frontiers of Poland now where drawn after WW II by the winners of that war
My father and my mother are germans, born before 1939 in germany before the war and today their place of beeing born and raised up for some yeras is poland
They were refugees and met here after the war, living in a camp for a while
My mother visited her old village 3 or 4 times not long ago - a lot of the old village and buildings still exist (in a bad  status, a kind of frozen time), the people are now living in her old home weren`t asked if they want to live there ..., they are refugees and victims of that time, too ...!
During that WW II and after that a lot of people where neither german nor polish nor rusian ?? (staatenlos) -a wild mix because of the politians decision- and they didn`t care much about the problems they caused to people without political interests and only want to survive ..
Symbols shoulnd`t be banned by a minority and religions reasons

[ldopas]

You do have a good point.  I talked to some polish people who would not mind if the building was burned down.
One older polish man said that he won't visit Auschwitz ever because it might make him hate the germans. He did not want to do that. I think I will try to visit it in the next two weeks.

It is interesting that in other posts you want to let everyone move anywhere and go on about oppression, call me conservative, yet here you start a post about banning things and symbols you or others don't agree with. Just a point?