Paris

[Shush]

Completely agree with that Pete. I do find it amazing that in this comparatively enlightened modern age there is a religion that is on the rise whereas others are in decline. People are being beheaded today as infidels. Is that much different from people being burned as witches in Europe 400 odd years ago. The search for god is responsible for so much evil.     

[Pol]

I think we have to remember that is religion can be a good thing for very many people.
I'm sure that we all have friends and family who are religious to some extent. I know for a fact that my mum and dad found a lot of comfort in their faith especially in later life. Think of all the good that religion can do christian aid , salvation army,   the innocents to name a few. What is the first thing most of us do when a loved one is seriously ill etc , we say a prayer. Just because most of us here don't believe and I include myself in that doesn't mean its a totally wrong thing.

And fck yes many have used it as an excuse to commit evil acts it doesn't make all religious groups bad people

[Rusco]

[...] They need to be blown off the face of the earth.

Amandistan, I don't mean to be rude but to be fair I think we should think for a moment again before going shout that kind of things in a social media. Not that I would be a person that waves peace signs in lollipop colours but still...

[jackroadkill]

[...] They need to be blown off the face of the earth.

Amandistan, I don't mean to be rude but to be fair I think we should think for a moment again before going shout that kind of things in a social media. Not that I would be a person that waves peace signs in lollipop colours but still...

I agree; that sounds a bit, well, fundamentalist, and we all know that's the root of the evil here.  Not Islam, not politics - fundamentalism.

[Johnz]

Seen many many gigs there ... ran a bar really close to the venue ... Had many drunk nights, 2 decades ago, with the owner of the first restaurant that was shot ... my oldest friend left the Bataclan just before the shooting (he worked there) ... all of this is like a chaotic storm in my head ...

That is an event that we don't really measure for the moment. And yes, for the moment, the three identified persons responsible were french.

And there's hatred in every religious book, religion is not about love, it's about bringing the fury of God to your opponents. This being said, most of believers in the world are able to set aside the violence in holy books and to live there faith using the positive side of those writings.

And there's stuff like ISIS. I haven't read the full article, just a translation in french of 2/3 of it, but that was a REALLY interesting reading. So here is "what ISIS really wants :
-> http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Sorry if I'm not clear enough, and for misspelling, hope this is understandable, slept so little this week-end and right now the kids are screaming around waiting to go to school

That is a very interesting article. Thank you very much for sharing it and strength to you and everyone else after these awful events.

[Amandistan]

Well what do you expect us to do? ISIS tortures people, burns people alive. Films it all.
They terrorize the locals, terrorize everyone who opposes them.
Such groups deserve to die. they are so brainwashed that they are beyond saving.
It's not fundamental. If we don't defeat them then how many more attacks will there be?

There was on in Beirut the day before, then one in Paris. there have been attacks in turkey. People are fleeing their homes. These people behead and burn people who they oppose. They will kill all of us in a heartbeat. innocent people who just want to live their lives. How else can you deal with ISIS if you don't kill them?
There is no other way. IT's not being fundamental, it is a war. and ISIS members do not deserve to be alive.

[Master Ray]

Another way of looking at it...

Uneducated folks live in a fuckin' desert and struggle for every scrap of comfort.  They have absolutely no idea about the 'real world' (as we would call it), just what the vile bullshit that us lot call 'religion', pumped into their heads, over and over again... and also that evil thing called 'The Western World', all rich and gloating and white and throwing down incinerating bombs that murder families, all in the name of a city called 'Paris', that you've never heard of... but you've seen the corpses and heard the screams and smelled the cooking blood... 

So, some powerful people, your Holy Men that you worship, come down and call the western world 'The Devil'.  Who wouldn't want to kill The Devil, especially if (a) you're utterly ignorant of world issues, (b) you've seen so much destruction and (c) THE DEVIL IS COMING TO KILL YOU!!!

Plus, you will go to Heaven if you destroy yourself, end your miserable life and relax in Paradise forever...

I'm not, for a single second, excusing what has been done, but let's please look at what's ben put to those poor ignorant people... RELIGION is just an awful thing...

[Johnz]

It looks like the majority of the suspects grew up in our midst, albeit in disadvantaged neighbourhoods. So to stop the flow of home grown terrorists we need to work harder on why integration has failed so badly and what can be done to overcome this. It's a very difficult task but it needs to involve more dialogue and mutual respect and understanding.

As for the situation in Syria itself; it's a mess and many different and powerful parties seem to be involved in it in ways that are not very transparent. Who sells the arms and the Toyotas? Who buys the oil? It seems that bleeding IS dry shouldn't be all that difficult but is a lot less profitable than benefitting from both sides of a war.

This is just one aspect of a multi-facetted mess though.

[Amandistan]

And that is unfortunate but they are beyond saving. With that mind set, they will continue these attacks.
I don't think people get this but ISIS does not care if they survive. They don't care about their own lives.
Actually after doing more research they are aiming for the apocalypse because some book tells them this.
If they had their way everyone would be dead.

Why is it so bad for us to kill people who will kill themselves if it means killing innocent people?
We handed nazi war criminals to Israel to be killed. Why are people so against the idea of fighting ISIS and potentially killing them? After all their  horrendous crimes, do they really deserve to be alive?

[Johnz]

It's not about whether it's good or bad but rather about what does and doesn't work.

First, we sell weapons to these homicidal maniacs. Then we buy their oil at cut rate prices which enables them to buy more weapons and keep fighting.  We call the people who are responsible for this the pillars of our society. Something is very wrong here and it needs to be addressed.

However, this is only part of the problem and it doesn't mean that IS can be reasoned with in any shape or form. They are fanatics of the highest calibre. But what is happening right now in Syria is the same retaliation that we saw in Afghanistan after 9/11. And that paved the way for what we saw last Friday.

Like I said, it's a mess and I don't have an answer either but blowing IS off the face of the earth hasn't worked so far and involves far more than a series of airstrikes. Right now it just feels like we're poking a hornets' nest which was probably the intention all along. 

[Tariq]

The Koran is full of such quotes. Have you ever read it? I recommend that everyone should read it in full. I have: cover to cover thrice. Whether you like it or not, Islamic terrorist groups often take the Koran word-for-word to justify their actions. Where would they be otherwise?

This is true I'm afraid. If you are a peace loving humanitarian who wants to find guidance from their religion, the Quran will speak to you. If you are a mentally ill, hateful lunatic who wants to kill, then the Quran will also speak to you.

What I find interesting / distressing about this is the reaction of Muslim communities in Europe and the UK to what is being done in the name of their religion. If you listen carefully, they stick to one narrative whenever there is an ISIS attack in Europe :

"ISIS is not Islamic. They have nothing to do with religion. Islam is a religion of peace. But now we are all going to suffer increased Islamaphobia. Now we are all going to be hounded by the Government and the media. And your foreign policy is making all this happen".

There are some valid talking points within that stance. But the whole response fails to deal with things that are at they very heart of this that they cannot and will not acknowledge. ISIS is VERY Islamic. Islamic teachings, sayings from the prophet and religious text are at their very core. ISIS members constantly quote these justifications all the time. They frame everything they do in an Islamic context. Their leader, Al Baggdhadi, has spent his whole life studying Islam in his childhood and as an academic. He knows nothing else. But all this is ignored in a desperate attempt to claw back the agenda and narrative from the alleged misrepresentation of their religion. Deep internal problems within Islam in Europe are totally ignored in favor of protecting this house of cards. It is very telling that the main mobilization of Western Muslim leaders has not been around how to fight extremism from within - it is around campaigning to make the Media use the word "Daesh" instead of Islamic State. Their reasoning is that ISIS is not Islamic, so they should not be referred to as such. But at the core of this campaign is their need to try and guide people away from thinking there is anything rotten at the core of their beliefs, to totally wipe away and discourage any critical thinking whatsoever about their religion.

We all know that western Foreign Policy is complicit in all this and has helped create the monster coming from the Middle East. But a holistic approach is needed. Islam needs to look within itself while constantly peering out of the window looking for snipers to blame while their house burns.







 

[Johnz]

We all know that western Foreign Policy is complicit in all this and has helped create the monster coming from the Middle East. But a holistic approach is needed. Islam needs to look within itself while constantly peering out of the window looking for snipers to blame while their house burns.

I agree Tariq. The link that Valstar Superstar posted addresses some of that in a lot of detail and makes a well presented case that IS extremely Islamic rather than not Islamic. I found it an interesting read. I guess it is very comparable to the crusades which could easily be dismissed as un-Christian but have all their justification in the bible. The difference is that the crusades occurred a very long time ago.

Islam does need to take a good look at itself much in the same way that Christianity did. It could be argued that Europe may be the most suitable place for Islam to reinvent itself and take on a more moderate guise. Sadly, these recent events suggest that it may actually be the exact opposite.

[Tariq]

It could be argued that Europe may be the most suitable place for Islam to reinvent itself and take on a more moderate guise. Sadly, these recent events suggest that it may actually be the exact opposite.

Some academics have tried to put forward a case for a brand of Western Islam that might integrate and flourish in a more positive way. A guy called Tariq Ramadan (no, that's not me btw!!) has written a whole book about it. It all falls on deaf ears though because, as mentioned before, most Muslim leaders and communities in the UK are too focused on external factors and trying to convince people that Islam is perfect to devote any thought to anything progressive. 

[Pumpkin]

What I find interesting / distressing about this is the reaction of Muslim communities in Europe and the UK to what is being done in the name of their religion. If you listen carefully, they stick to one narrative whenever there is an ISIS attack in Europe :

"ISIS is not Islamic. They have nothing to do with religion. Islam is a religion of peace. But now we are all going to suffer increased Islamaphobia. Now we are all going to be hounded by the Government and the media. And your foreign policy is making all this happen".

There are some valid talking points within that stance. But the whole response fails to deal with things that are at they very heart of this that they cannot and will not acknowledge. ISIS is VERY Islamic. Islamic teachings, sayings from the prophet and religious text are at their very core. ISIS members constantly quote these justifications all the time. They frame everything they do in an Islamic context. Their leader, Al Baggdhadi, has spent his whole life studying Islam in his childhood and as an academic. He knows nothing else. But all this is ignored in a desperate attempt to claw back the agenda and narrative from the alleged misrepresentation of their religion. Deep internal problems within Islam in Europe are totally ignored in favor of protecting this house of cards. It is very telling that the main mobilization of Western Muslim leaders has not been around how to fight extremism from within - it is around campaigning to make the Media use the word "Daesh" instead of Islamic State. Their reasoning is that ISIS is not Islamic, so they should not be referred to as such. But at the core of this campaign is their need to try and guide people away from thinking there is anything rotten at the core of their beliefs, to totally wipe away and discourage any critical thinking whatsoever about their religion.

Excellent post.

ISIS is certainly nothing less than very Islamic. The response from Muslim communities in the West is wholly inadequate at best and nothing short of an attempt to sweep a very serious problem under the carpet. "They do not represent us!" Islamaphobia is simply a buzzword to stifle healthy, necessary debate about very important issues in Islam. There is a very poor appetite for integration on behalf of many Muslims which straddles all of Western Europe and is not a particular problem of one country. Islam welcomes religious conversion, yet punishes apostasy with death. It is a very conservative religious philosophy which struggles with many of the concepts of liberal, 'secular' democracies which we take for granted. 

I couldn't agree more with the need for critical thinking about the very core of Islamic beliefs. The first place to start is with Mohammed himself through the Koran and the Hadiths. The second place to start is on the vicious sectarianism within Islam itself, both Sunni and Shia. The third place to start is with Saudi Arabia's own stated desire to make Sunni Islam even more orthodox and conservative under the tenets of Wahhabism.

[Tariq]

Well, the significant majority of western Muslims of course reject everything ISIS stands for, and many of them are integrated and part of their wider communities. And they do openly condemn their behaviour while also rightly pointing out the part the West plays in this toxic situation. But when it comes to taking the next logical step – ie looking inwards and perhaps exploring how the religion and texts might feed into this – they recoil and deny. Their narrative always comes back to the West and Islamaphobia, because looking in other places would mean dismantling their beliefs somewhat. Anyone who calls themselves a Muslim, or of any religion, will find it hard to make this step. Throughout history, there have been enlightened Muslim scholars who have questioned the authenticity of the Quran itself, and have employed some critical thinking. Lots of them have been killed for doing so, others driven to exile. You say Islamaphobia is simply a buzzword….and yes it is used as such, but I think we should accept that it does exist on some level…although that level is usually always The Daily Mail and Fox News, who basically hate everyone and are just two outlets and yet are held up as representing “The Media” in its global entirety. I have a very Muslim name and can honestly say I’ve never experienced any negative reaction to it, or feel I’ve been treated differently because of it. Maybe I’ve just been lucky. It may well happen one day. Maybe I’m not in situations / places / amongst people where it would be a problem. Maybe I don’t scour the news looking for examples of it that fit my narrative and attracting it to myself.