EU Referendum

[MARKXE]

As Pol says being ran by unelected unaccountable commisioners in Brussels that is also my problem.
The EU is a runaway train that will sooner or later crash better to get off now.
I doubt we as a country will leave as people are normally scared of change and the general public seem to believe most of the stuff peddled by the media in turn steered by the powers that be.


This is a good presentation for the Out/NO camp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eatfmjCDyWI

A decent read.
http://peterjnorth.blogspot.de/2016/02/the-concise-brexit-arguments.html

And this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5YqVmQAhQ8

[Rusco]

Some of the rules EU set different years ago in Finland was sheer idiotism like when they prohibited Finland manufacturing tar. It showed they were unaware about different purposes that tar is used in industry (f.e. buildings, coatings, and also pastils for consumption etc.). They considered all forms of tar poisonous (which it's not). Well, they withdrew their stance and admitted being wrong and unaware. That's ok if they can quickly change their views and give special privileges for some nations.

Because of EU the production of chicken eggs suffered a serious conclusion. Production of milk faced nearly the same but is allowed if herd sizes are very large (approx. 60 heads) that is rather a factory than a farm. Production of sugar has dropped also very much. How much these are because of EU or just plain competitiveness is another question.

I think that following of some of political parties have grown large due to EU (populists especially). First they're against the institution, next they're using it themselves. There are rightwing maggots as MEPs today.

[Bunny]

The problem inthe UK Stef is that we still have a small island, insular mentality. We're force fed "Great" Britain, failing to acknowledge everyone is proud of their country. We see Europe on holiday and thats it.  Whereas from my recent Slovakia trip, the overlap of cultures was astonishing and wonderful We dont have that here and some dont want it sadly. Unless you live in London, which is more global,all the rest of the UK is fed on is Eastern Europe coming here and taking jobs/benefits.

 

I think firstly you, as a lot of left leaning people do (Emma Thompson stand up please), are far too harsh about our country. I certainly do not recognise your description and I go all over the UK and elsewhere for work.

Are you saying that apart from London, which is what you said, the rest of us are all UKIP EU haters? Are we really? What about Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Bristol etc. Multicultural places all?

We are an island you are right of course. But as we are not attached to Europe as a landmass we do see ourselves in that fashion. I don't think that is wrong necessarily. In Europe you can transport yourself from country to country easily, a bit more difficult to swim the channel. 

I think people are genuinely concern about numbers, that doesn't mean we are all jingoists or racists. Or even UKIPpers. Population is important, we all know it effects density, services and cheap labour can drive down wages.

It is NO shock that polls tell us that the leave vote is higher in ethnic minority communities here. As they bring an entrepreneurial instint with them. Are they "insular"? I don't think so.

Firstly I was generalising about the right wing media in the opening line. I equally loathe the jingoistic use of "Great" Britain. I dont hate my country, but I dont equally think it is any better or worse than anyone elses. Do you disagree with a concern that people think we are better out of Europe and if so why are we bothering with a referendum if the UK is all shiny happy? Secondly, I suggest you havent been to the areas I have, which are very insular and suspicious. If we are this welcoming, multicultural island, I suggest you visit Handsworth in Birmingham or even Wisbech in Cambridgeshire. Suspicion and fear is in abundance. Similarily, Lye in the West Midlands where the Asian community are currently squabbling with the Romanians. Kingswinford, an affluent area, crammed with Daily Express readers and the fear of Johnny Foreigner. Just small English towns with different underlying tensions. Id suggest that is far, far removed from the business environment you operate in.  I dont proclaim to speak for everyone, just my own experiences and observations. And from that and what the Right Wing press prints, tends not to support Europe as a concept. Yeah possibly I lean left but equally Im likely to support a right Right idea. Isnt it interesting though as a supposed left winger,  I see the problems of multi-culture and as a supposed right winger, you see the benefits? In truth, im willing to accept the middle ground. I like the idea of people coming in but accept it brings benefits and problems. Ukiper??

I agree that the population numbers game has baring. Not quite sure why you think I would think everyone is a UKIP EU hater. Clearly not, or UKIP would be forming a government. I do beleive that a lot of suspicion about Europe is peddled. Me personally, im equally torn. I can see the pluses and minuses. If i thought for a moment, and part of me does, that without Europe, Cameron and co, or even a Labour Government would run amok unchecked by Europe law makers, Id tick to stay without hesitation. But for every close the border argument, we then lose a lot of information being shared. I dont actually beleive trade/business will be hugely affected whether we stay or go. People will always buy or sell.

Im glad however you recognised I was right about us being an island. I saw a picture of it on a map 

Finally, hope youre better

[Anna Woman von NRW]

Read an interesting article while bored at work today which I feel draws out some salient points.

"..... There are plenty of intrepid souls out there who pore haplessly over facts and figures, many of which are conveniently presented to virtually cancel each other out, but mostly, swathes of the country probably do feel thoroughly disconnected from the issue, because they're unable to tell what a Brexit or a Brstay really means for them"

I think this is hugely important. So much of what I'm reading focuses on things that feel remote from daily life, seemingly for "the city", politicians and the omnipotent amorphous business class. But all of that does filter down into a real impact. It's not remote.

"...Because it does mean something. It is worth "common folk" forming a strong opinion on it. How will it affect your job, your wallet, your hospital, your doctor's surgery, your local cafe, your favourite restaurant, your holiday, your weekend break, your foreign business trip, your German, Italian or Slovakian friend who lives round the corner, your foreign property, your children's worldview, your opinion of the UK's position on the planet? Because the EU Referendum will affect all of those things, very deeply. If, hand on your heart, you claim to not give a shit about any of them, good luck to you. But forgive me if I don't believe you."

This starts to get to the heart of things. The examples given are very real issues that will be affected by the eventual decision.

".....need more clued-up people to give their view, and I'm not talking about journalists and politicians. We need artists, business owners, filmmakers, doctors, lawyers, musicians, actors, market researchers, scientists, IT consultants, chefs, lorry drivers, police officers, and dozens of other professionals I haven't thought of, to come out and say how they think an In or Out vote will affect their day to day existence"

Some clever sod came up with the knowledge is power quote and that's what we need. Not spin, not the cries from self-interested groups and certainly not the manouvering machinations of politicians jostling for pre-eminence at the next general election. I don't give a monkeys about the next leader of the tory party, I don't care if Corbyn will still be the leader of the labour party. That has nothing to do with this, it's bigger than the charade of party politics.

Oh, full article here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/tim-thornton/david-baddiel-brexit_b_9315230.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

[Wessexy Witch]

My school closes for the referendum vote.

 

I still have to go in though.

 

[Bunny]

My school closes for the referendum vote.

 

I still have to go in though.

 

Bloody Europe!!! 

[Johnz]

Read an interesting article while bored at work today which I feel draws out some salient points.

"..... There are plenty of intrepid souls out there who pore haplessly over facts and figures, many of which are conveniently presented to virtually cancel each other out, but mostly, swathes of the country probably do feel thoroughly disconnected from the issue, because they're unable to tell what a Brexit or a Brstay really means for them"

I think this is hugely important. So much of what I'm reading focuses on things that feel remote from daily life, seemingly for "the city", politicians and the omnipotent amorphous business class. But all of that does filter down into a real impact. It's not remote.

"...Because it does mean something. It is worth "common folk" forming a strong opinion on it. How will it affect your job, your wallet, your hospital, your doctor's surgery, your local cafe, your favourite restaurant, your holiday, your weekend break, your foreign business trip, your German, Italian or Slovakian friend who lives round the corner, your foreign property, your children's worldview, your opinion of the UK's position on the planet? Because the EU Referendum will affect all of those things, very deeply. If, hand on your heart, you claim to not give a shit about any of them, good luck to you. But forgive me if I don't believe you."

This starts to get to the heart of things. The examples given are very real issues that will be affected by the eventual decision.

".....need more clued-up people to give their view, and I'm not talking about journalists and politicians. We need artists, business owners, filmmakers, doctors, lawyers, musicians, actors, market researchers, scientists, IT consultants, chefs, lorry drivers, police officers, and dozens of other professionals I haven't thought of, to come out and say how they think an In or Out vote will affect their day to day existence"

Some clever sod came up with the knowledge is power quote and that's what we need. Not spin, not the cries from self-interested groups and certainly not the manouvering machinations of politicians jostling for pre-eminence at the next general election. I don't give a monkeys about the next leader of the tory party, I don't care if Corbyn will still be the leader of the labour party. That has nothing to do with this, it's bigger than the charade of party politics.

Oh, full article here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/tim-thornton/david-baddiel-brexit_b_9315230.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Some good points there Anna. It's also important to remember that the EU was born out of the horrors of WW2. It's primary goal was to prevent another war within Europe. As such it was a genuine peace keeping mission rather than a business model. So for the most part I would say it has been very successful although there is obviously considerable room for improvement.

[Master Ray]

Can I just raise another point... these newspaper opinions from 'experts'  ... aren't they complete subjectiveness?  This is completely uncharted territory!  The pound collapsing if the UK leaves the EU?  Nobody will want to trade with us anymore (you know, the fifth richest country in the world)?  Yes, we've heard from the banking industry that it won't be a good thing... yup, I trust them fools every step of the way after the solid and beneficial work they've done... not to mention politicians who already have one foot riding on the EU 'after political retirement' gravy train... 

No major country - and YES, the UK is a major country! - has ever quit the utter mess that is the EU. Who is to say that it won't be a great thing for the UK, lead to other countries quitting and therefore an immense reformation that might, in a decade or so, lead back to countries coming back together on far better terms that the utter arse-twattery that is the EU nowadays, lessons having being learnt in the meantime?

Pie in the sky, I know, but here's hoping.

[Johnz]

Can I just raise another point... these newspaper opinions from 'experts'  ... aren't they complete subjectiveness?  This is completely uncharted territory!  The pound collapsing if the UK leaves the EU?  Nobody will want to trade with us anymore (you know, the fifth richest country in the world)?  Yes, we've heard from the banking industry that it won't be a good thing... yup, I trust them fools every step of the way after the solid and beneficial work they've done... not to mention politicians who already have one foot riding on the EU 'after political retirement' gravy train... 

No major country - and YES, the UK is a major country! - has ever quit the utter mess that is the EU. Who is to say that it won't be a great thing for the UK, lead to other countries quitting and therefore an immense reformation that might, in a decade or so, lead back to countries coming back together on far better terms that the utter arse-twattery that is the EU nowadays, lessons having being learnt in the meantime?

Pie in the sky, I know, but here's hoping.

I think the possible downsides of an exit are likely as exaggerated as the supposed burden that the EU represents. Business will go on one way or another. An exit would primarily be a symbolic gesture that says 'our differences are greater than our similarities'. As such it would inevitably lead to some cooling off of relations on a personal level. I think that would be a shame. 

It's much the same as a Scottish exit from the UK which is also one of the more likely outcomes of a Brexit. Interestingly, it seems that many of the English in favour of a Brexit also oppose a Scottish exit from the UK (some slight double standards there I think).

Lastly, like any government, the EU fulfils a fantastic scapegoat function. Most people are fairly unaware of their own governments dealings outside of what they read in the papers. With the EU, it's even worse as most people haven't got a clue what it actually is an can and cannot do. It's also unlikely that people will bother to educate themselves between now and June so the vote will be based on emotive issues which may or may not be true.

No different from most elections anywhere, I guess

As someone who is watching all this unfold from half a world away I can't help but worry about the developments in Europe. I just can't see how more division can be a good thing. I hope I'm wrong.

[ldopas]

Interestingly, it seems that many of the English in favour of a Brexit also oppose a Scottish exit from the UK (some slight double standards there I think).

Bit one way being rude to the English?   Let us also not forget that the people in Scotland who wanted to break away from the UK seem to be the most rabid in wanting to keep us in the EU. Double standards as well!

PS. Those who gave me good wishes for recovery in this thread. I thank you. Recovery is still slow, but I'm still wearing the cardio vest and in two weeks go back to see if an implant is needed and the vest can go...or I can start official cardio rehab with no op and no vest. Thanks for your best wishes. It is slow, but I am walking for an hour each day now and of course I never stopped working from home (don't tell the medics). The biggest issue as you would guess is mental. I think I am strong, but any ache, strain or gurgle and I think cardiac arrest is about to happen again and I'm toast. Time will heal that I hope!. Thanks for your best wishes, they do make a difference.

[Stephanie]

Fingers crossed that the vest can go and an op won't be necessary, either. 

[Pol]

Gotta to totally disagree with your Scottish point idopas , firstly its two separate issues and independence seeking Scots want to be part of Europe. The difference is Scotland could set its own future path as a independent European member. I would say how I'm going to vote since you made me out to be a liar on my independence vote

[Johnny Appleseed]

I'll be voting to stay IN the EU.

All the best,
Johnny

[andydrbeard]

Head says stay, heart says leave.

Well today it does who knows what'll be by June.

[ldopas]

Gotta to totally disagree with your Scottish point idopas , firstly its two separate issues and independence seeking Scots want to be part of Europe. The difference is Scotland could set its own future path as a independent European member. I would say how I'm going to vote since you made me out to be a liar on my independence vote

So it is exactly the same thing when English voters who wanted to keep Scotland with us, but want out of the EU. But completely different the other way round when it is Scottish voters? You lost me there. It is the same issue.

I'm sorry you've lost me on the independence vote and making you out to be a liar. In what context?