Brussels was the angry planet's capital today

[New Dawn]

It is true that a lot of Westerners do not watch with the same eye when attacks happen in for instance Turkey than when they happen in Belgium. It should not be. Probably it is the shock that suicide bombing has found Western Europe again and has occured for the first time in this country. I agree people react more upon the facts when it relates geographically and mentality-wise to their own world. Brussels is a European capital and lots of expats are under the victims. So westerners will relate to this much easier. I think Western Europeans will also react more to assaults in Istanbul and Ankara than to bombing at the eastern borders of Turkey which had a longer history of incidents and is simply much further away. But I don't think we should compare too much. Obviously there is a limit to what people want to take in on bad events.

She has a point, though: those who carried out these attacks WERE people who were born here (in the west) or at least grew up here. Yes, IS did the radicalising (is that a term?) - but of course they found easy targets in those areas where even those who had been brought into the respective countries generations ago are still not accepted, nor are there children and grandchildren, they are discriminated again.

So, educating people is very, very important, all people, ignorance is dangerous - and "love", open-mindedness, plays an important part as well. Outsiders are easy to win over - you see that in every school.

It's a fact that the Belgian and Brussel government has long time ignored the situation in the Brussels boroughs. Now they are pointed at it big time with the world watching closely. Still there is a minimalisation of the problem. When the Brussels culprit of the Paris terror was arrested a couple of days ago a lot (some say 100 to 200? I wasn't there) of young Belgians with foreign roots were gathered there and threw bottles and things at the police not wanting the cops to arrest the terrorist who they sympathised with. This (negative) signal was largely ignored or minimalised by national television journals. It just shows there is still a lot of dissatisfaction under the young local inhabitants who descend from the immigrants but were all born in Brussels. Among similar kids ten-fifteen years ago grew a lot of guys who choose to fight in Syria and later returned or will return as a terrorist. Many among them did not get out of the negative spiral, which often begins with provocation on both sides, and were radicalised easy with the now known consequences. The liberal prime minister reacts by emphasising unity. The partyleader of the right oriented NVA and Antwerp mayor reacts furiously. He will sweep when he can. But his euphoria was misplaced when the forces catched the so called public enemy n°1. After the latest facts his NVA minister of Interior and Security now has given resignation (not accepted) for making crucial faults in not treating adequately Turkish information on one of the suicide terrorists. This guy was sent back from Turkey to... Holland instead of Belgium and then he vanished so this will cause political trouble with the Dutch also. It is certain that the treatment of important policial information in Belgium was way too slow. Countries need to work together better in fighting the terror. Although reasons for the choices of future jihadists are not always religious but sometimes of a plain criminal nature (my opinion), it's true education and open-mindedness can play an important role in them feeling accepted. Just a simple example, one of Belgium's best reporters decided to stay in Molenbeek for a couple of months after the Paris events and filmed where he was able too, where he was allowed or simply where it was appropriate. His main aim was just achieving comprehension of each other, so he filmed in the mosque, followed and talked a lot with inhabitants like young muslims, a hallal butcher, a mechanic, the police chief, the imam, the mayor and former mayor. All angles were covered. This documentary was watched weekly by around one million of Belgians. He got a pub owner who was convicted for racism so far he would attend the islamic mass and enter the mosque for the first time in his life. Only such constructive initiatives can break down the walls of ignorance, the not comprehending the 'other', the lack of mutual respect and the discrimination. But we've got a long way to go...

[Amandistan]

I never once said the attacks were okay. I expressed my disgust, I simply don't agree with bombing Syria as innocent people die.  I am very saddened and sorry this happened and would be if it hit my home town or gig as well.

I simply expressed by objection to bombing Syria and killing thousands of innocent people. More deaths do nothing to help anything. I do not get the logic of taking thousands of lives in revenge. It is innocent people who will die not just ISIL.   

Whatever your view is on Islam Pumpkin, the truth is that far more many Muslims are killed by terror groups than any other religion or lack or religion. I have no proof of anything but have muslim friends who feel guilty for this but have done nothing wrong at all. Refugee kids are holding signs up to say sorry but have done nothing wrong. This is why we can not blame an entire religion. They should not have the guilt.

I have spent a  lot of  Turkey and love Turkey.  I spent a lot of time around people fleeing war and also love their culture. It is all close to home for me.  Sorry if i can not care about one more than another.

[Pumpkin]

Whatever your view is on Islam Pumpkin, the truth is that far more many Muslims are killed by terror groups than any other religion or lack or religion. I have no proof of anything but have muslim friends who feel guilty for this but have done nothing wrong at all. Refugee kids are holding signs up to say sorry but have done nothing wrong. This is why we can not blame an entire religion. They should not have the guilt.

What I asked you to quantify was your comment concerning the Old Testament and the Koran.

That Muslims are prime victims of their own bitter sectarian hatred surprises me not in the slightest - even in 'secular' Turkey which is killing Kurds and vice versa. Erdogan would rather support ISIL through the backdoor, rather than grant statehood to the best anti-ISIL fighters - the Kurds. Shia Iran does likewise.

The point being that violence and murder is vindicated in the Koran and by Mohammed himself towards anyone who does not follow the teachings of Allah, as interpreted by Mohammed and, increasingly, Wahhabism Sunni Islam. The bitter, often vicious, sectarian conflict between Sunni and Shia proves this. Enter the country which claims to have a religious and moral monopoly on Mohammed (Saudi Arabia) and is the biggest supporter of Islamist terror and you have... Well, you have a disgusting level of silence from the West about where to start pointing the finger - if nothing else.

With all the beautiful aspects of this lovely religion of peace, we should all be getting ready for the 'nirvana' it will bring us all.

[Amandistan]

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/violence-more-common-in-bible-than-quran-text-analysis-reveals-a6863381.html
Here is one of many sources. Even the new testament has more references of violence and killing. Not that it matters as it is the same god with a different name. Actually it is against Islam to kill innocent people. Even at times of war, they have certain standards.
There are 1 and a half billion muslims on earth, if they were all as you described then we would all be dead already.

The Sunni and Shia conflict is actually more political than religious. It is about territory as is the Turkish war on the Kurds. I think you are getting politics mixed up with religion.

I am not hear to defend a religion and can not believe that I even have to type this here.These views by so many people make muslims feel unwelcome and that is not okay. 

"The muslims are prime victims of their own bitter sectarian hatred surprises me not in the slightest"   
  What a hatful comment. It is not their hatred. The people killed were innocent. The people bombed in Syria did nothing wrong but live. The people killed and hurt in Turkey did nothing wrong. They do not deserve this. I don't even want to discuss anymore. The muslims I know would never say this about Brussels or Paris. Even after being bombed post-Paris attacks.

 
 

[Amandistan]

Personally I would rather not go to Belgium again.

**** the attention seekers.

And those who dine off of it.

If you avoid Belgium due to them, then they have won.

[Bever]

Personally I would rather not go to Belgium again.

**** the attention seekers.

And those who dine off of it.

If you avoid Belgium due to them, then they have won.

I live in Belgium. I don't feel unsafe. I personally would not change my ways. It can happen anywhere. Anytime. It's a new reality...

[Pumpkin]

I have a long-standing, healthy scepticism about religion. I see all religions as fundamentally wrong in the simple way they prioritise faith over reason. I have little time for the Bible either. Criticism of Christianity is long-standing and secularism is much more secure in the West. The same needs to be done with Islam. We must be able to question it; we must be able to criticise it. We fought long and hard in Europe to get the grip of the Vatican out of everyday life and I, with many others, do not want to lose such secularism to an even worse alternative.

Actually it is against Islam to kill innocent people. Even at times of war, they have certain standards.
There are 1 and a half billion muslims on earth, if they were all as you described then we would all be dead already.

What I do find unusual is that you would use a source to justify your claim on the Old Testament in which the author of the research describes his own work in the following manner: "I must also reemphasize that this analysis is superficial and the findings are by no means intended to be conclusive.”

Have you read the Bible and the Koran yourself, Amandistan?

Why does the Koran and Hadith state the following then?

* Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
* Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
* Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
* If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
* Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
* No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).

So, does ISIL and its various off-shoots really have nothing to do with this muck? When Boko Harem razes a Christian neighbourhood to the ground in Nigeria, does it have nothing to do with Mohammed’s teachings? When Sunni and Shia clerics preach open hatred towards Jews, is it unfounded in the holy books? When Palestinian telly programmes for children talk about Jews as pigs, is it all unrelated? When ISIL cleave the heads off of Yazidi and Kurdish men and rape their women and use them as slaves, does it not have justification in the Koran and Hadith? Take particular note of the last point from al-Bukhari 1:3:111.

I’m not describing all Muslims: I’m talking about the faith of Islam (submission). There is a difference. I have worked in Turkey and Saudi Arabia and I have also been in Iran, UAE and Oman. I have met individual Muslims who are fine: it is the faith that disgusts me. I know many who are also disgusted by it, but simply cannot open their mouths on the subject. The penalties are obvious for such behaviour.

The Sunni and Shia conflict is actually more political than religious. It is about territory as is the Turkish war on the Kurds. I think you are getting politics mixed up with religion.

Actually, it isn’t. It is a deep theological split on the grounds of doctrine, ritual, laws and even religious organisation. The Sunni-Shia sectarian split in Saudi Arabia and Iraq and beyond is vicious. The fault line is Iraq. Neither Iraq, nor Shia Iran nor ‘secular’ Turkey want to grant one grain of sand to the Kurds, themselves an ethnically diverse group with many religions.

"The muslims are prime victims of their own bitter sectarian hatred surprises me not in the slightest"   
  What a hatful comment. It is not their hatred. The people killed were innocent. The people bombed in Syria did nothing wrong but live. The people killed and hurt in Turkey did nothing wrong. They do not deserve this. I don't even want to discuss anymore. The muslims I know would never say this about Brussels or Paris. Even after being bombed post-Paris attacks.

You are misquoting and clearly misinterpreting what I'm saying here. The fact that such a bitter split exists in Islam and is driven by fanatical hatred of opposing schools, one claiming to be more pure to Mohammed’s interpretation and sayings than another, would guarantee that the ‘infidels’ within Islam would be amongst the first victims. The Koran clearly advocates dislike for Jews and Christians, so that conflict hardly surprises me either.

I simply do not want to live under the absurdity of Islamic doctrine. In fact, I sympathise with anyone forced to live under it, especially those who clearly would rather be apostates. No wonder then that Islam sanctions the killing of such people:

'They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper.' (Koran 4:89)

'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.' (Bukari 84:57)

Everyone should read the Koran and the Hadith. Combined with an understanding of Wahhabism, you really will get the picture behind Islamic terrorism and the role played by the House of al-Saud.

[Shush]

I can agree with what you say Pumpkin, and we have covered religion here on several topics before, most of us not having good things to say about it in general. Personally I find it amazing that religions are doing so well , some still growing in the more enlightened world that with live in today where there is more opportunity for people to learn, and decide for themselves.
Its worth remembering in the dark history of the last century tens of millions of people were killed, enslaved, victims of genocide, false imprisonment, starved, etc in the name of Communism - the supposedly anti religion philosophy. Religion is not to blame, it is only used as an excuse. Personally yes, I would love to see an end to all religions despite the good they can  do and comfort they can bring. But if so, I am sure we would have just as much conflict in the world justified by other means. 

[lotus]

Can`t say it in my own words, but I agree with Pumpkin

[Amandistan]

I have read the bible as I went to Catholic school as was forced to read the whole sickening thing.
I have not read the entire Quran but was educated by actual muslims at the refugee housing centre. The religion they speak of does not allow terrorism or killing of innocent people. It was hijacked by IS and other terror groups.

I have no ammo to debate this. I just want the best for my refugee friends. I take it personal as the idea of them suffering or being made to feel more unwelcome breaks my heart. I really love their culture and what they shared with me. All I know i that the wonderful people I met there and in Turkey enhanced my life. I do not care what they believe.

I refrain from debating anymore or defending anyone. I am too saddened by everything to make sense.

[Pumpkin]

I have not read the entire Quran but was educated by actual muslims at the refugee housing centre. The religion they speak of does not allow terrorism or killing of innocent people. It was hijacked by IS and other terror groups.

Then these people are simply not following the Koran and the Hadith, both of which clearly provide 'scriptures' not only to support this behaviour, but also encourage it further from its followers. Every single Islamic terrorist group uses such Koranic and Hadith 'treasures' to justify their sickening behaviour. 

Terrorism and killing of innocent people has not been 'hijacked' by ISIL and a plethora of Islamic terrorist groups from some supposed peaceful notion of Islam, when an innocent Mohammed stood naked in the Garden of Eden gently advising Adam and Eve not to be tempted by a 'Jewish' or 'Christian' snake. Islam has a long history of violence; Mohammed's visions have not been corrupted by such groups. Terrorism and the killing of innocent people exist in the Koran and the Hadith and such behaviour has been justified by Mohammed and numerous clerics and scholars over the centuries right up to the present time.

Enlighten yourself by reading the Koran and the Hadith...for yourself. I'm sure you'll draw the same conclusion you did about the Bible. 

[Bever]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-yt6KkXwlU

[Bunny]

Probably A because its not new News in the middle East. I think everyone with half a brain is aware of the mess that is over there. It is new News here. And besides. What better way to keep people living in fear.
The world is doing what it can to tackle Isis.....but its only a brief moment in time before the next variant springs up.

[Coumarin]

IRA attacks in England? Remember them? I certainly do. Bins and toilets removed from London bridge station.

Maybe British intelligence is more on the ball and the rest of the world needs a COBRA?

London next anyone?

[Bunny]

It is quite obvious people are aware. However it is not okay to write this off as "Common" or "It is okay because it always happens in the middle east.".   This is lessening the value of their lives and is sick.People should be furious this happens to people everywhere and there should be no favoritism by the media. 

Whatever, I give up on getting anyone to try and see a different point of view.

No thats quite correct. Actually the only people lessening peoples live are the ones doing the killings. Im fairly sure however in regards to the media they sell stories. What happens in France or Belgium is much closer to my doorstep. I understand your anger, youre living it. As I said we already know whats happening out there. Belgium is new.

Just out of curiosity, have you had any understanding of the media's take on either issue in the Middle East? Genuine question, no trip ups .