Author Topic: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today  (Read 5287 times)

Bunny

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2016, 03:32:32 PM »
 ;D. Theres only one way of reading cos the West has made such a mess.....(Im teasing!)

I disagree about oil. I think thats an easy blame. Otherwise they coulda gone for Saddam after Kuwait. I do beleive its solely down to threat and instability. I dont beleive thats the root cause. ISIL i beleive have got funding from within Iraq. Weapons from the defeated army, money from Iraq banks
Hala (from the Anglo-Saxon word "halh", meaning nook or remote valley), until it was gifted by King Henry II to Welsh Prince David Owen and became known as Halas Owen

ldopas

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2016, 06:08:31 PM »
Between you and Idopas, I give up with trying to get you to see a different side. I will never agree with either of you.

Fine, that is what a debate is people have contra views. And it is ldopas, as in L-DOPAMINE. Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 06:25:18 PM by ldopas »

ldopas

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2016, 06:09:54 PM »
Because the west has made such a mess in the middle east.

No mention of the Russians on the other side bombing to keep their tyrant Assad in place then. Geopolitics is much more complex than just pointing a finger at the west.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 06:25:40 PM by ldopas »

lotus

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2016, 06:17:17 PM »
Next one - Don`t let me be misunderstood
Nina, not Eric

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckv6-yhnIY
And me, I`ve got a black place in my heart
Still got this hole in me
Perhaps - I am the master of nothing?

Pumpkin

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2016, 09:27:29 PM »
I think blaming islam or any other religion doesn't work.If it wasn't islam it would be another reason for people to fight....Reason is not the only islam itself. Nationalism,racism,oil,territory,power..Anything could be.

Of course, there are many other reasons to fight, but the problem with ISIL and Brussels and Paris and Turkey and Afghanistan and Iraq and Iran and Saudi Arabia etc… etc.. is that such events are clearly inspired by Islam. To add fuel to the mix, there’s also Islamic sectarianism. I don’t think there is any doubt whatsoever about that.  It may not be the only variable, but it is unquestioningly the strongest one.

If you are from Turkey, you know all about Ataturk’s wisdom behind secularism and his outright rejection of Islam as a political movement. You also know about his views about what he deemed the ‘immoral Arab’ and that Islam was a religion of the Arabs. Ataturk clearly saw greater value in secularisation and westernisation not the ideas of Islam. 

Turkey emerged from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire as a successful state, simply because of Ataturk and the fact he ensured secularisation. Unfortunately, this luxury hasn’t been afforded to many of the Arab states or beyond. This is why it is a problem and why Islamic fundamentalism thrives there and beyond.

We must be able to question and criticise the man and the religion. The problem is that doing so is forbidden in Islam and the penalties for doing so are severe.

Pumpkin

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2016, 09:33:15 PM »
Because the west has made such a mess in the middle east.

Far too simplistic. Who can you blame for the sectarianism? Who can you blame for the stoning of women?

Where did ISIL get there weapons from?

The answer is obvious.

Isaac(Black Eagle Rising)

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2016, 11:34:13 PM »
Pumpkin..
I agree with every single word you wrote.I really don't like to change the subject to my own country's history or problems and I'm sorry everyone if Im doing this but this has a connection also I believe.Ataturk's vision was far more beyond the future and in his all speeches,in all words,books written by him you can still see it in today.Many people disagree with me about him especially the people whom I know,some of my friends and some people call themselves liberal or socialist.I come from a military family and I am very well taught about him and our close history.He wasn't kind of a fascist dictatorial army officer or commander.And I never took him as a god/hero figure.He had to be tough in 1920's heavy conditions.He knew what was going to happen next because he knew what kind of things islamists could do.He didn't get wrong..All happened.After him 1940's,50,60,70s we made terrible mistakes (and big part was by knowing)in the control of our right-wing governments and shot ourselves in foot and reached today.
It is a very long case but his vision on islam was also right.Never used his power to end islam.But he was aware of our roots.So separating islam from government works and being a laic republic was right and ideal model in my opinion.
I really think that we turks couldn't have made a peace with islam.We couldn't have accepted it.Even today in our daily lives there are many things can be seen remained from our shamanic middle asia culture.This is what I think.We were forced to accept it by blood and sword.I never ever believe that those turkic tribals changed their beliefs by their will.We lost the battles and its gone..
What I tried to mean by saying islam is not the only subject is;there are huge amount of muslim people who really  don't give credit to these psychos.I know that it is the biggest motivation is islam for terror organisation to take them on their side..And saying all mess made by west is wrong.But I don't believe that west acted only when there is a threat.There were many times west acted without threats.Dont think that Im kinda saying all evil came from west.Im really not sure even if this is a west-east trouble.Im not foreign affairs or security expert but only thing I know is we will have harder times in future Im afraid.Unfortunately feeling very pessimistic about that.

Isaac(Black Eagle Rising)

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2016, 07:36:25 AM »
Greek genocide?? This has never happened

cthulhu

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2016, 07:41:30 AM »
Despite the existence of a good deal of research about terrorism, there’s a gap between the common understanding of what leads terrorists to kill and what many experts believe to be true.

Terrorist groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda are widely seen as being motivated by their radical theology. But according to Robert Pape, a political scientist at the University of Chicago and founder of the Chicago Project on Security and Terrorism, this view is too simplistic. Pape knows his subject; he and his colleagues have studied every suicide attack in the world since 1980, evaluating over 4,600 in all.

He says that religious fervor is not a motive unto itself. Rather, it serves as a tool for recruitment and a potent means of getting people to overcome their fear of death and natural aversion to killing innocents. “Very often, suicide attackers realize they have instincts for self-preservation that they have to overcome,” and religious beliefs are often part of that process, said Pape in an appearance on my radio show, Politics and Reality Radio, last week. But, Pape adds, there have been “many hundreds of secular suicide attackers,” which suggests that radical theology alone doesn’t explain terrorist attacks. From 1980 until about 2003, the “world leader” in suicide attacks was the Tamil Tigers, a secular Marxist nationalist group in Sri Lanka.

According to Pape’s research, underlying the outward expressions of religious fervor, ISIS’s goals, like those of most terrorist groups, are distinctly earthly:

What 95 percent of all suicide attacks have in common, since 1980, is not religion, but a specific strategic motivation to respond to a military intervention, often specifically a military occupation, of territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly. From Lebanon and the West Bank in the 80s and 90s, to Iraq and Afghanistan, and up through the Paris suicide attacks we’ve just experienced in the last days, military intervention—and specifically when the military intervention is occupying territory—that’s what prompts suicide terrorism more than anything else.   
.....
http://www.thenation.com/article/heres-what-a-man-who-studied-every-suicide-attack-in-the-world-says-about-isiss-motives/

Meanwhile, Pope Francis has spoken out against the role of the weapons industry in Tuesday’s deadly attack on Brussels. The pope spoke during pre-Easter rituals north of Rome on Thursday.

Pope Francis: "Muslims, Hindus, Catholics, Copts, Evangelists, but brothers, children of the same god, who want to live in peace, integrated. Three days ago, there was a gesture of war, of destruction, in a city of Europe from people who don’t want to live in peace. Behind that gesture there were arms manufacturers, the arms traffickers who want blood, not peace, who want war, not brotherhood."

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/3/25/headlines/pope_francis_points_at_weapons_industry_behind_brussels_attack


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Pumpkin

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2016, 10:47:13 AM »
Pumpkin..
I agree with every single word you wrote...[Ataturk] had to be tough in 1920's heavy conditions.He knew what was going to happen next because he knew what kind of things islamists could do.He didn't get wrong...It is a very long case but his vision on islam was also right.Never used his power to end islam.But he was aware of our roots.So separating islam from government works and being a laic republic was right and ideal model in my opinion.
I really think that we turks couldn't have made a peace with islam...I know that it is the biggest motivation is islam for terror organisation to take them on their side..And saying all mess made by west is wrong.But I don't believe that west acted only when there is a threat.There were many times west acted without threats...but only thing I know is we will have harder times in future Im afraid.Unfortunately feeling very pessimistic about that.

Black Eagle Rising,

Thanks very much for your reply. I completely agree with you, too. Having worked in Erzurum, Ankara and Malatya, you can clearly see evidence of this, especially when compared to Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Ataturk's vision of Islam was correct - that it should be held in check by a strong government. The secularism you enjoy in Turkey is something that the Persians next door in Iran would love to return to, especially since The Ayatollah has returned the country to The Stone Age after previous attempts at secularisation under The Shah. Secularism generally works better in non-Arabic states, especially in ones which were former empires (Ottoman, Persian). I don't think the Arabs, as a majority, will embrace such a concept though. The spread of Islamic fundamentalism has also forced existing secular regimes to become more authoritarian in a response to protect secularism. Would you agree that this is what Erdogan might be up to?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 11:20:18 AM by Pumpkin »

Pumpkin

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2016, 10:54:21 AM »
The recent bombings in Turkey were not even about religion. It is political.

Yes, where the PKK is concerned, it is. However, ISIL and their various ilk have no time for a secular Turkey as their neighbour or otherwise. Turkey is very often an example of 'Islam gone wrong' from the point of view of various fundamentalists, Wahhabists and Salafists.

ISIL alone are responsible for recent attacks in Istanbul, Ankara, Diyarbakir, Reyhanli and Suruc. I wouldn't dismiss the Islamic terrorist threat posed here.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 11:20:50 AM by Pumpkin »

Pumpkin

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2016, 11:10:28 AM »
cthulhu,

The study you referenced only examines suicide attacks – not terrorist attacks. Suicide attacks only constitute something like 5% of all terrorist attacks from around 1980, so they are small by comparison.

Suicide attacks only became more prevalent again from then to the present day, and motivation to do so has ranged from nationalism to Islamic fundamentalism. Drawling a line between the two can be difficult. Scott Atran and the Chicago Project on Suicide Terrorism would both dispute aspects of Pape’s findings, but all seem to agree that, since 2004, the overwhelming majority of suicide attacks have been Islamist.

In terms of terrorist attacks, the evidence against Islamists is even more damning.

What 95 percent of all suicide attacks have in common, since 1980, is not religion, but a specific strategic motivation to respond to a military intervention, often specifically a military occupation, of territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly. From Lebanon and the West Bank in the 80s and 90s, to Iraq and Afghanistan, and up through the Paris suicide attacks we’ve just experienced in the last days, military intervention—and specifically when the military intervention is occupying territory—that’s what prompts suicide terrorism more than anything else.

What does Lebanon, the West Bank (The Holy Land), Afghanistan and Iraq really have to do with? Religion - either clear differences between faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam), or particular schisms within Islam itself(Sunni, Shia).

To take the best example, The Lebanese Civil War was all about multi-religious conflict, dragging Israel and Syria into it in the process. Lebanon has many different religions and groups. The more recent Lebanon War was also the Israeli-Hezbollah War. The current conflict in Lebanon concerns Hezbollah again, ISIL and al-Nusra Front.

We could show similar examples with Afghanistan and Iraq, neither of which, however, have significant non-Islamic minorities. The West Bank is also an obvious religious conflict. There is also the issue that almost every Islamic country wants Israel destroyed, simply because they refuse to recognise its existence. 

In the West, we mostly practise secularism which keeps religion out of our daily lives should we wish to do so. (THANK GOD  :D ) This is what Ataturk also aimed for in Turkey. Throughout much of the Middle East and beyond, into the Islamic states further south and east and west, it is mostly a part of your daily life – whether you want it or not. That is one of the key differences here. Many Western analysts don't fully appreciate this. 



« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 11:27:46 AM by Pumpkin »

Isaac(Black Eagle Rising)

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2016, 11:58:47 AM »
Pumpkin..
I agree with every single word you wrote...[Ataturk] had to be tough in 1920's heavy conditions.He knew what was going to happen next because he knew what kind of things islamists could do.He didn't get wrong...It is a very long case but his vision on islam was also right.Never used his power to end islam.But he was aware of our roots.So separating islam from government works and being a laic republic was right and ideal model in my opinion.
I really think that we turks couldn't have made a peace with islam...I know that it is the biggest motivation is islam for terror organisation to take them on their side..And saying all mess made by west is wrong.But I don't believe that west acted only when there is a threat.There were many times west acted without threats...but only thing I know is we will have harder times in future Im afraid.Unfortunately feeling very pessimistic about that.

Black Eagle Rising,

Thanks very much for your reply. I completely agree with you, too. Having worked in Erzurum, Ankara and Malatya, you can clearly see evidence of this, especially when compared to Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Ataturk's vision of Islam was correct - that it should be held in check by a strong government. The secularism you enjoy in Turkey is something that the Persians next door in Iran would love to return to, especially since The Ayatollah has returned the country to The Stone Age after previous attempts at secularisation under The Shah. Secularism generally works better in non-Arabic states, especially in ones which were former empires (Ottoman, Persian). I don't think the Arabs, as a majority, will embrace such a concept though. The spread of Islamic fundamentalism has also forced existing secular regimes to become more authoritarian in a response to protect secularism. Would you agree that this is what Erdogan might be up to?
Well actually I really can't know what he might be up to.He is the worst thing happened in our history.At his early times big majority of liberals and socialists believed him.Now they are too regretfull but its too late.And he messed our lives last 13 years.He used islam very well to cheat the half of the nation.He has to be authoritarian cos he and his crew has a lot dirty secrets to keep.But you cant keep it forever.I think he is also ill mentally.His main greed is about money and power.And islam was the perfect thing for him to reach his goals.All I want is this nightmare to be gone soon.Otherwise this ship will sink to the bottom forever.

Isaac(Black Eagle Rising)

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2016, 12:44:01 PM »
I am done debating with someone who clearly dislikes muslims. Guess what,secular people can also be militant.
I will not accept you or anyone blaming islam when it is the tiniest minority.

P.S. Israel is the aggressor in the Palestine conflict. The ******* zionists orphaned kids that I know, and it there is an attack back, then it is terrorism. But if a zionist pig kills innocent people, then it is not terrorism. some double standards the media has.  .


I take it nobody read about the Greek Genocide while praising the national hero of Turkey? 
In other news, Turkey sent Syrians back to the war zone and shot refugees at the border.  Yet it is okay, due to the fact Turkey is Secular. 
Just overlook all of this and the past.
First time Im hearing a thing called "Greek Genocide" !! We can discuss about ermenians but do you have anything to prove this?Amandistan We fought against each other in our national indepence war but I never ever heard something like that even from greeks.

Pumpkin

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Re: Brussels was the angry planet's capital today
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2016, 01:48:51 PM »
I am done debating with someone who clearly dislikes muslims.


If you are making reference to me, where exactly did I state that? Any examples? Or is this just another flying accusation?

Guess what,secular people can also be militant.


Of course they can. Reference has already been made to that.

I will not accept you or anyone blaming islam when it is the tiniest minority.


Have you familiarised yourself with verse from the Koran or the Hadith? The brutal sectarian split in Islam and why it exists? Mohammed's life and his goals? Do you know what Wahhabism is and why it exists? The role played by Saudi Arabia against all forms of Islam that 'deviate' from the puritanical version? Do you realise there is a virtual civil war within Islam itself? You must - because you've stated more than once that Muslims are being killed by Muslims. I accept that and I know exactly why this is so. I haven't seen anything from you in this thread that you actually know the answers to these questions.

P.S. Israel is the aggressor in the Palestine conflict. The ******* zionists orphaned kids that I know, and it there is an attack back, then it is terrorism. But if a zionist pig kills innocent people, then it is not terrorism. some double standards the media has.

I think this outburst quite clearly illustrates something interesting.

First and foremost, not all Israeli citizens are Jewish. Almost 21% of Israel's population is Arabic and these Israeli Arabs actually speak Hebrew and many sit in the Knesset. These are mostly Muslim or Christian. Is there any Arabic country which still has a large Jewish population? Rhetorical question. How many Islamic countries allow Jews in the government? Schools of political Zionism even advocate that Israel not be merely 'a state of Jews'. Moreover, not all Jews are Zionists. Within Judaism, there also exists a number of schisms, minus the orthodox, puritanical violence justified by verse which is directed at the more liberal elements in Islam (particularly Ahmadi Muslims).

Regardless, here you talk about Israel with a wide sweeping generalisation of Zionism, ignorant of the wider arguments within and the complex politics of Israel, then speak of 'a zionist pig'.

Are you sure you haven't been watching too much Palestinian Authority TV? The programmes that talk about Jews as pigs etc...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyRLyXCj3Lg

I take it nobody read about the Greek Genocide while praising the national hero of Turkey? 
In other news, Turkey sent Syrians back to the war zone and shot refugees at the border.  Yet it is okay, due to the fact Turkey is Secular. Just overlook all of this and the past.

I did read about this a long time ago; I certainly didn't dispute any of it. I could ask you why you didn't reference the Armenian Genocide which is a much more contentious issue affecting relations with Turkey. Do you want to consider the fact that both the Greeks and Armenians are eastern Orthodox Christians? Or did that probably not play a role here?

Whilst I do recognise Ataturk's valuable contribution to the secularisation of his country, I never once 'praised' him, as you define it, on matters outside of this. Or did I?

Could you please use more objectivity and familiarise yourself with what lies beyond simple demarcations?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 02:10:02 PM by Pumpkin »