Panama Papers

[Anna Woman von NRW]

Other than a couple of posts in the smile/laugh thread nothing about this has made it here (perhaps potentially divisive topics are a bit off limits for a while for some reason ............  )

It can't have come as a surprise to anyone surely? But the size and scale of the data dump - 11.5 million documents does surprise me, I'm amazed there is actually that much documentation for this CRIMINALITY which is what it is. This could rumble on for quite a while yet. Of course, it's just a ploy to have a go at Russia (yeah Putin it's all about you) but to believe that you'd have to ignore and dismiss every other global connection in there. The sums involved are national budget sized. Money that should have gone towards safe water, power, schools, hospitals, infrastructure is instead in the bank accounts of the global financial elite. I mean if another country waltzed into the UK and helped themselves to our Treasury I'm pretty sure quite a few folk would be somewhat miffed. But no doubt the non-elite will just soak this theft up with a collective shrug of the shoulders after all we did after the 2008 crash didn't we?

Will anything actually change? I doubt it, where are the alternatives to the global financial system? Who is there to stand against it? How do you tame such a huge will without a face? Who/what could police a system that shamelessly steals from the worlds population and that is so entrenched in the hidden corridors of global governance?

Buggered if I know (bar a revolution  ) But if anything lights up the true nature of the 1%-v-99% divide it's this.

[Pol]

Again I'm going to apologize for letting most of this other than the main highlights pass me by. I suppose I should pay more attention, I've only really watched the Scottish news and had a brief look through my msn news on my phone, I've stopped buying newspapers as well. Too easy to caught up in the comfort zone of breaking bad, the 100 and the real world of motogp.

[Bunny]

Its actually amazing its news at all. Everyone knows it happens and in the most part legal. Personally it morally stinks but tax advisors/accountants are available to all. Its possibly more of an interest to those with more finance. Personally i think its morally repugnant.

[Pol]

I suppose you have to ask yourself what you would do if you ever had money. I'm not saying stick it in sum off shore tax haven, but there are plenty of legal tax breaks available in this country, I know that you can stick a large amount in a pension fund for yourself for example or lease yourself a nice car and claim it as a business expense plus many other loop holes.

[ldopas]

I suppose you have to ask yourself what you would do if you ever had money. I'm not saying stick it in sum off shore tax haven, but there are plenty of legal tax breaks available in this country, I know that you can stick a large amount in a pension fund for yourself for example or lease yourself a nice car and claim it as a business expense plus many other loop holes.

Exactly. And as a society we either keep these breaks or lose them. But the shout about "morality" is a busted flush. Like the word "fair" it can mean all things to all people.

[Bunny]

Unless its an opinion and equally valid of course, as the next different one. For without different viewpoints or modes of thought,  how does anything ever change?

[Master Ray]

Can I just, gently, ask... if you deprive the government of money (whether 'legal' or otherwise), what is the difference between a benefits fraudster and a tax-swerving millionaire?  Surely they are both the same, morally and otherwise?   

[Bunny]

Legal is the key phrase I think mate. Morally, I agree. However it isnt just a rich issue. Its open to all, with any finance of a relatively small size.

[Anna Woman von NRW]

I should probably set out my stall here  .

I'm not some sort of reactionary luddite who thinks we should all grow our own vegetables, love each other, shun the advances of the modern age and live happily ever after. I understand that the entire history of the human race has been built on us each out performing the next person. Winners and losers, advancement over regression . The only duty each of us has is to ourselves and that striving for the best we can be will inevitably mean some get shafted. Trade and consequent economic profit seems to me an equally inevitable end result and is not intrinsically bad or undesireable.  I have no fundamental objection to some lucky _fuckers making the most of what they've got.

However my issues with this shite are this:

1 - The gulf and disconnect between those who benefit from this and those who are excluded has grown beyond what is reasonable to accept. When people don't have drinkable water but the financial system enables select individuals to accumulate personal wealth etc etc etc, (and examples are seemingly quite commonplace) things have gone properly wrong.  Boundaries, "natural order" and opportunity have been skewed to such an extent that there is a systemic imbalance and my guess is that this is not a healthy situation.

2 - The total_fucking hypocrisy of all of this is just beyond the pale. "we're in it together". "banks too big to let fail", Patrick Cockburn on the relationship to Daesh, Mark Steel on Cameron's paper-round,Government comments on Jimmy Carr, Osbourne's tweets regarding morality of financial transactions.Look what the cost of the last crash has been to the majority and then look at what the "cost" has been to the minority. Where the _fuck is the togetherness in this? And do these male appendages really expect us to believe that this is the only way.

I can't claim to have answers, I can't claim expertise but I do see a problem that won't go away and that just seems to inexorably get bigger.

[Bunny]

I think Anna that about sums it up for me. However, it is what it is and always has been. There is no great impetus to change anything, which to my mind suggests its a "fake" furore (in the sense is anyone really amazed) to sell a story.
I suppose for any great change to happen, there has to be some mass change of thought a la fox hunting, the homosexual legislation as was, and before that slavery. In fact any social injustice, that took huge mindset changes across societies or significant figures to stand up and say "No. This isnt right". Sometimes that can take decades, sometimes never. Sometimes you just shrug your shoulders and take it on the chin. I am but a small cog in a bigger wheel......said Confucius. Maybe.

[Bunny]

I suppose you have to ask yourself what you would do if you ever had money. I'm not saying stick it in sum off shore tax haven, but there are plenty of legal tax breaks available in this country, I know that you can stick a large amount in a pension fund for yourself for example or lease yourself a nice car and claim it as a business expense plus many other loop holes.

Interesting point Pol. I meant to reply earlier but got sidetracked by some nonsense or other.

On a personal level, Ive never looked for money. Im happy enough with what I have. Ive never thought about making more than I need or investing for a future that may never happen. I begrudge no-one who does or who works to that, nor do I begrudge anyone who gets extra state help that needs it. But I just dont "get" the need for more money than you need to live comfortably or the squeeze something for what you can get mentality. Its wholly alien to me in a "why are you being greedy its just numbers in a bank" way.If i can buy something I will, if I cant then I just do without. My brain doesnt register it and I guess Im not hugely materialistic.

So to properly answer the question, I'm buggered if I know