Author Topic: EU Referendum  (Read 7001 times)

New Model Army

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EU Referendum
« on: June 22, 2016, 04:31:58 PM »
Leave / Remain

We have remained quiet on the big issue facing Brits tomorrow. However, as the moment approaches and the arguments on both sides get nastier and more threatening in tone, it’s hard not to say something – even if the opinions of a bunch of musicians have no particular significance.

Yes, from a purely selfish point of view, Remain is 100% in our personal interest. The existence of the EU is why it is so easy for us to regularly tour across Europe without the need for carnets and work permits (the reason we are unlikely to tour in the US in the near future) and stacks of expensive paperwork. Leave would make this all harder and more complicated for us, and for all similar musicians and artists crossing the Channel in either direction.

But that’s not our point. It seems that the referendum in the UK has become simply an opportunity to ‘stick it’ to the status quo and there are many, many good reasons to want to do this. And the more people at the top of society, from politicians to successful business people, ‘the good and the great’, tell us to vote Remain, the more likely people are to want to take the opportunity to say ‘**** you’. The Remain camp’s tactics have been all based on economic threats, but since the 1980s, and certainly since 2008, people have been entitled to believe that ‘economic benefits’ are entirely skewed towards those people that already have everything and are not, in any sense, shared by us all – so what difference will it make? When one ‘shock’ headline suggests that house prices would fall dramatically in case of Brexit, it’s hard not to think of anything that wouldn’t actually be better for the UK. We can see a good case for Leave, which is based on justified criticism of the EU, on the idea of promoting local economies over global, corporate interests and on true humanist, democratic, internationalist principles.

But that is not what is driving the Brexit campaign; the people screaming loudest for Leave terrify us; the little Englanders, the ‘get rid of EU regulation that holds back business interests’ brigade, the fascistic tendency to want to go back to a wholly invented past, and in some quarters the overt racism and sheer nastiness. And this fear is shared by millions of people across the Continent who want a different, better Europe for themselves too. We believe that we are better standing together with them. The real troubles that plague Britain, chronic underinvestment, the flow of money and resources from public into private hands, mind-boggling levels of inequality and the squeeze on public services are not the fault of immigration or the EU, but the choices of our own governments since the 1980s.

The murder of Jo Cox was not directly related to the EU debate, or the rise of Donald Trump or Marine Le Pen, or the threat of terrorism or any particular event but is difficult to disassociate it from the general tide of hatred sweeping the globe, not to see an echo of the 1930s in the rise of religious fundamentalists and right wing demagogues everywhere, feeding on and stirring up divisions between people where such divisions are normally, at worst, the minor irritations of people’s every day lives. Are we bored of peace? Have we forgotten what tribal conflict and war is actually like? There may be some logical principles in Brexit but it’s loudest and most powerful backers, who will be most empowered by a Leave victory and most in a position to benefit, have a ruthless and entirely right wing agenda.

We are reminded of a German comedian who, answering the question as to whether Britain is really part of Europe, simply said ‘buy a f****** map’.

NMA

Bunny

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2016, 05:37:52 PM »
Far more eloquently put than I could ever do. Thats why im in.
Hala (from the Anglo-Saxon word "halh", meaning nook or remote valley), until it was gifted by King Henry II to Welsh Prince David Owen and became known as Halas Owen

Master Ray

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2016, 08:00:52 PM »
It's irresistible forces meeting immovable objects.

Too late to change any of the general publics opinions now.  Too many lies and facts and bullshit swirled up in a perfect shit storm that'd make anyone giddy.  And it's the general public who will decide this whole thing, not us lot on our fun little Forum.

It's the biggest European embarrassment of the 21st Century and neither side is coming out of it covered in glory, regardless of the end result.

Vote with your heart and accept the end result.  It's the best you can do.

Rasi

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2016, 01:42:18 AM »
The rise of racism scares me. And it's everywhere. In germany it has become fashionable again to call foreigners names. We are told that those are just scared people. Scared because the governments don't have a real solution to whatever issues exist in your local communities. While there might be some truth in that, the fact that there are way over 2000 criminal acts against immigrants in 2015 alone speaks a different language. If people are scared because of the government, the government should be their target.

So yeah, racism suddenly is normal again. Humans never learn and I actually had the exact same thoughts about people being "bored of peace". It's a sad reality  :'(

c

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2016, 07:33:50 AM »
accept the end result.  It's the best you can do.

well said, Master Ray. It's the essence of democracy IMO.

sparks68uk

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2016, 05:18:13 AM »
 Rasi , I think the Government did just become the target given the results from last night.........

Marco0721

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2016, 07:01:59 AM »
today is NOT a good day  :( :(
in a world without melancholy there would be no place for music

c

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2016, 07:12:10 AM »
Bugger

Still as I quoted Master Ray above, we've got to accept it

Bunny

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2016, 11:45:38 AM »
Unless youre Nicola Sturgeon lol
Hala (from the Anglo-Saxon word "halh", meaning nook or remote valley), until it was gifted by King Henry II to Welsh Prince David Owen and became known as Halas Owen

Pol

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2016, 03:26:12 PM »
Two thirds of Scotland voted remain even though I wasn't one of them. I'm not ready for another independence vote either, even if I voted yes last time. Fck I'm not getting a passport to come to Nottingham lol . Maybe we can invite London to join Scotland lol
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Bunny

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2016, 07:55:26 PM »
So did I. Im fairly convinced I should have me own kingdom. Who do I write and ask?? ;D
Hala (from the Anglo-Saxon word "halh", meaning nook or remote valley), until it was gifted by King Henry II to Welsh Prince David Owen and became known as Halas Owen

A-lex

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2016, 07:56:10 PM »
I was wondering what NMA could think about this. So thanks for that point of view. In a kind of internationalist will – or at least as an old NMA French fan – I've tried a French translation of the text. I didn't ask for any permission so feel free to remove it if necessary. Anyway waiting to see you in Paris in december. Wish UK and Europe good luck for the future etc.

Partir / Rester

Nous sommes restés silencieux sur le grand enjeu auquel vont faire face les Britanniques demain. Cependant à l'approche du référendum et devant la tonalité de plus en plus répugnantes et menaçantes des arguments avancés des deux côtés, il est difficile de ne pas dire quelque chose – bien que l'opinion d'une bande de musiciens importe peu.

Oui, d'un point de vue purement égoïste, rester dans l'UE est à 100 % dans notre intérêt personnel. L'existence de l'UE nous permet de tourner facilement et régulièrement à travers l'Europe sans grandes formalités administratives et amoncellement de coûteuses paperasses - ce sera plus compliqué dans un proche avenir, pour les USA. Partir rendrait tout cela plus difficile pour nous et pour tous les musiciens et artistes traversant la Manche dans les deux sens.

Mais ce n'est pas notre propos. Il semble que le référendum au Royaume-Uni soit tout simplement devenu une occasion de conserver le statu quo et il y a beaucoup, beaucoup de bonnes raisons pour cela. Plus les élites - des politiciens aux riches capitalistes - disent de voter Remain, plus les gens sont susceptibles de vouloir profiter de l'occasion pour leur répondre d'aller se faire foutre. La tactique du camp Remain a été totalement basée sur des menaces économiques. Mais depuis les années 1980 et certainement depuis 2008, les gens ont toutes les raisons de croire que ces « avantages économiques » sont entièrement accaparés par ceux qui ont déjà tout et ne sont, en aucun cas, partagés pour nous tous. Alors. Quelle différence cela fera ? Lorsqu'un journal dans un titre choc suggère que les prix des maisons baisseraient considérablement en cas de Brexit, on peut difficilement imaginer chose meilleure pour le Royaume-Uni. Nous voyons une bonne raison pour le Brexit en nous basant sur une critique juste de l'UE afin de promouvoir les économies locales contre les intérêts des multinationales sur des principes véritablement humanistes, internationalistes et démocratiques.

Mais ce n'est pas ce qui motive la campagne Brexit ; les gens qui crient le plus fort pour quitter l'UE nous terrifient ; la brigade des patriotes bas du front qui veulent se débarrasser de la réglementation européenne qui empêche les intérêts commerciaux, la tendance fascisante à vouloir revenir à un passé totalement inventé, et dans certains milieux, le racisme manifeste et la pure méchanceté. Et cette crainte est partagée par des millions de personnes à travers le continent qui veulent une autre et meilleure Europe. Nous croyons que nous sommes mieux debout avec eux. Les vrais problèmes qui affligent la Grande-Bretagne : sous-investissement chronique, flux d'argent et de ressources publiques dans des mains privées, ahurissants niveaux d'inégalités et démantèlement des services publics ne sont pas la faute de l'immigration ou de l'UE, mais relèvent des choix de nos propres gouvernements depuis les années 1980.

L'assassinat de Jo Cox n'était pas directement lié au débat européen, à la montée de Donald Trump, de Marine Le Pen, à la menace du terrorisme ou à tout autre événement particulier, mais on ne peut guère le dissocier de la marée générale de haine qui balaye la planète. On peut difficilement ne pas voir un écho des années 1930 dans la montée des fondamentalistes religieux et des démagogues de droite qui nourrissent et agitent des divisions qui ne sont, au pire, que des irritations mineures du quotidien populaire. En avons-nous marre de la paix ? Avons-nous oublié ce que sont réellement les conflits tribaux et la guerre ? Il peut y avoir quelques principes logiques au Brexit mais ses plus puissants et plus bruyants défenseurs, ceux qui seront renforcés par sa victoire et qui seront les plus en mesure d'en bénéficier ont des objectifs droitiers impitoyables. 

Nous nous souvenons d'un comédien allemand qui, répondant à la question de savoir si la Grande-Bretagne faisait vraiment partie de l'Europe, dit simplement : « achetez une foutue carte ! »

NMA

cherrygarcia

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2016, 01:03:17 PM »
Add your signature to show your support for this petition, currently at more than 1.4 million signatures.

Petition EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum[/size]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
[/color]

Seeing as Farage has admitted that the Leave campaign based on lies ... http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/nigel-farage-labels-350m-nhs-promise-a-mistake

How many Leave voters are now wishing they'd voted Remain instead?

Johnz

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2016, 02:11:12 PM »
Add your signature to show your support for this petition, currently at more than 1.4 million signatures.

Petition EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum[/size]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
[/color]

Seeing as Farage has admitted that the Leave campaign based on lies ... http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/nigel-farage-labels-350m-nhs-promise-a-mistake

How many Leave voters are now wishing they'd voted Remain instead?

It's done now. That's democracy. Time to get on with things.

cherrygarcia

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2016, 02:39:19 PM »
This is what Farage was after if the shoe had been on the other foot though, saying back in May that "a 52-48 win for the Remain side in the EU referendum would be “unfinished business”.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-eu-referendum_uk_576e6585e4b08d2c56393f12

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Just saying ... it's worth a shot.