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General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: JS on July 06, 2015, 11:02:52 AM
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Interesting to see no conversation about Greece.
Perhaps this is because none of us really understands the complexity of the world’s financial system and because there is an endless stream of commentators on both left and right stating their rival cases with far more knowledge than we have. Or, like the entirely inevitable tide of refugees and immigrants now heading for the relatively rich West, it has no easy solution. So we are all silent.
However there are one or two things to remember that are irrefutable.
1) If you have a large debt and have no means to repay it, then taking away what little you do have to make interest payments cannot help you to repay the debt.
2) When the talk is that taxpayers across Europe have to pay to bailout the Greek people, this is not quite true. We will simply be bailing out the banks. Again. The history of the last 30 years is one of tax-payers’ money being siphoned off by the already rich and powerful and is basically institutionalized corruption.
3) By most estimates, around 97% of money in the world doesn’t actually exist as anything real. It is largely an intricate system of bonds and debts that is ‘played’ by insiders to their own benefit. So the super-rich can get ever richer while the rest of the people in the world, at all levels, are under more and more pressure. It is then that we begin to try to hold on to what we have, to be consumed by fear and to turn against each other. To resist this temptation is the one thing we can all do.
So the world’s financial structure is complicated but it is 100% certain that the way it has been allowed to grow does not benefit either the majority of the people on the planet or the planet itself. In 2008, when we wrote Today Is A good Day, we hoped that the revealing of the true nature of the banking system might lead to some positive structural change but we were over-optimistic. The ‘no’ vote in Greece may be a cry in the dark but it is brave and represents a small resistance to a totally bankrupt and inhumane system.
JS
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Here is some, in my opinion, shocking info about the banking world written by dutch journalist Joris Luyendijk:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/joris-luyendijk-banking-blog/2012/aug/01/how-to-make-most-of-banking-blog
marius
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Couldn't agree more. I don't really do online discussions anymore, I'm not interested in debating with people I don't know personally, and who in some cases you can't even be sure whether they are *real* people and/or whether they really believe in what they write on Internet forums or just get a kick out of debating/provoking a reaction/winding people up, but (as those who DO know me have seen, from private exchanges, on FB etc.) I for one was really hoping for this result and am delighted by it. After the disappointments of recent elections (the Scottish referendum, the last general election here in the UK), it's refreshing to see that for once people didn't fall for the scare stories, the lies and the bullying of the media and the various institutions; perhaps, as many have said, it's because they felt they had nothing to lose really, but it's still good to see they didn't.
May this be an example for the people of Spain, Ireland, Italy and, eventually, this country and everyone else that turning the tide is not only possible, but essential.
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I enjoy discussing serious issues but have no understanding of economics whatsoever. I did not talk about it because it makes me sound like an uneducated idiot.
I do know that the people of Greece and Ireland are struggling, poverty is rising and there are no jobs.
Also that people in the more wealthy EU countries are angry and do not want to help them.
Perhaps it's not a wise idea for so many countries to share the same currency. I have heard numerous people say that the euro was not working.
I know it's probably not possible but why can't they just overlook the debt forget it?
It's not fair for these people to live in poverty.
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Interesting to see no conversation about Greece.
Perhaps this is because none of us really understands the complexity of the world’s financial system and because there is an endless stream of commentators on both left and right stating their rival cases with far more knowledge than we have. Or, like the entirely inevitable tide of refugees and immigrants now heading for the relatively rich West, it has no easy solution. So we are all silent.
I must admit, as much as I've tried to understand the stuation in Greece, the figures involved and the complexity of the political situation make it pretty hard to follow. I totally agree with Danny however, in that I'm gladdened to see that the Greek people have made a stand against the big banks and their ruinous behaviour. One can only hope that its not in vain...
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I'm with Amanda I have been seriously thinking about posting something on the the situation but I didn't want to look like a dumb ass. I don't watch much tv or buy a newspaper very often these days it just depresses me and ok I shouldn't have my head stuck on the sand. I read most of my news on my msn app its takes in a few newspapers and sky news so its kinda balanced.
What I would like to say is I find it disgusting that basically people have been left with next to nothing through no fault of their own. The vast majority of them are ordinary people who have worked hard all their lives and have been left in a outrageous situation. I can't begin to imagine just how angry they must feel.
Its really poor to think that the best media comments have came from Adam Hills last leg tv show. Greece has less than a 1/10 of the debt of the usa and if we gave them only a couple of euros each they would quits.
I was brought up to believe that you should pay your way in life but how can they when the debt is so huge. Its time the other countries cut Greece some slack and figured out a better way.
I don't know what will happen next but is Europe just going to sit back and watch people die
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Does it actually benefit the Greeks to be part of the Euro?
I just visited both Greece and Ireland. Two countries going through financial difficulties. The countries are suffering and you can kind of sense it it. When you walk through the streets of Athens and Waterford you can sense that the people are feeling, sadness, desperation and anger. Greece has some of the most welcoming, kind people i have ever met. It's sad to see them so bad off.
Out of curiosity Pol, what country are you from? I hope you don't mind me asking.
I don't watch much news either but probably should.
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I'm from sunny Ayrshire Scotland
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I'm with Spud. The difficulty lies in trying to understand exactly what has/is going on and just what these insanely huge figures really mean. Given enough time I can usually get my head round most stuff - albeit it at a very basic level - but this just does not compute. So many different figures being banded about, so many viewpoints being promoted it's impossible to understand, well at least if you ain't Piketty.
I'm sure there is knowledge out there on both left and right but whether or not we actually get the benefit of that wisdom is a different matter. I very much doubt anyone has laid out the cold bare facts. Equally it seems apparent there are no easy solutions but holy shit listening to people at work today there are shedloads of simplistic ones. I've been told with 100% sincerity that Greek Bus Drivers earn £800 a week and pay no tax at all - maybe one hard working guy did somewhere once after a blinding week on overtime but your average Joe? No I don't think so either. Pointing out that post WWII Germany was rebuilt on a program of debt relief and they worked it out didn't really help either: Blank faces and muttered comments about winning the war ................................... ::)
I hate to say it but this all seems like "UKIP thought" on a big scale. Seems to me that faced with things we can't really understand the default stance is "the Greeks took the loan, pissed it up the wall and now want us to pay it off"
Because most everyday folks don't see it as a casualty of the Lucifer invented financial system or see the connection to "austerity" rampant through so many countries in Europe. Neither are they able to remember a week ago let ago the 2008 banking crisis. And that's before playing dot to dot. It's far far easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for being feckless.
Perhaps in time this moment will be seen as a catalyst for change but I'm afraid I think it will take a far more dramatic turn of events to jolt us all out of our complacency. I salute the Greeks for taking a stance (but what about the 50% who didn't vote?) however nobody will actually listen. Will they?
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It deffo seems like Greece is being set up as the bad guy for a forthcoming economic shitstorm that is not of their making thanks to the usual suspicion of 'dem bloody foreigners...'
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Well the initial posts makes some statements that are "100% certain" and a number of % that don't necessarily stack up, which I disagree with. Just because you present them as sureties does not make them so.
Firstly it is ok to again have a go at the "evil" banking systems, without reference to the fact that banks and governments actually have NO money, except what we give them in savings and taxes. So that money is our money. But forgetting this allows us to abdicate a good portion of our responsibility and say it is all evil baby eating bankers.
To remove the need for banking, which goes back 600 years, is not going to be easy. Most people want to keep their money safe and want it to earn a bit more for themselves.
As to Greece, it is indeed complex. And Anna, I'm sorry but I am not a Ukipper, I don't think my opinion is Ukip!!!
It is interesting that when banks borrow money and gamble it, lose it, can't pay those who invested, we are the FIRST to be out with our pitchforks and V for Vendetta masks, saying how beastly capital is.
YET when it is a country like Greece who has borrowed, an eye watering amount of not nebulous cash from the font of evil banking, but actually EU taxpayer money. Then we are content to say how the Greeks are not to blame. They are. You don't feed a heroin addict more heroin do you, you attempt to alter their behaviour?
Of course you would have to be made of stone to see people worried as ordinary Greek people are. And I hope we reach some sort of solution, but it cannot go on. Paying, for example, so that people can retire a decade before we can is anathema. If you want to retire early, there has to be some sort of economic justification for it. I know many here will blanche at that being left of centre, but early retirement costs, and usually the economic active pay for it.
I do agree with Amanda, I am happy to be British and European, but this one size fits all especially currency is bullshit. Countries need their own fiscal controls to allow them to adjust to situations. Part of the Greek problem is they do not have that, the scary thing is they don't want their own currency back!
We talk simply about "austerity", a phrase I bloody hate. Invented by those who want to crowd out discussion about balancing economic books. Hell the EU haven't bothered for two decades so why should we, right? Wrong. If I don't balance the books in my business and produce legally signed of accounts I can go to jail. However I do agree that shackling Greece with random cuts is counterproductive. They need to remove themselves from the Euro and like any advanced economy, balance their own books, but I am sorry they do owe the money back to the EU taxpayers who loaned it.
Anna salutes the Greeks for taking a stance. I see your point. But what stance is it? A stance to demand more money from taxpayer funds with no hope of ever seeing it back. Remember Greece promised a decade ago to reform their systems, collect taxes properly and signed up to repayments they have now reneged on. that cannot be right. Again I say, if a bank did that, just think of the bile that would be written here and elsewhere.
And MR, how is this "not of their making", they in the end could have refused a decade of bail outs surely, could have stayed out of the Eurozone and set their own fiscal policies?
I see I've gone on too long. I'll sign off for a mo and see what else comes in! :)
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After a very rare and always welcome post by JS, I wish I had a valuable contribution to make to this topic, but like many, I do not have a deep knowledge of economics -- its all Greek to me. ::)
But, it does strike me as somewhat crazy how a wonderful country such as Greece, in terms of history and culture, one of the richest countries on the planet, has become a country in the western world financially on its knees. It almost seems like the select membership of the E.U. has to have winners and losers, if there is to be strong progressing economies, then there has to be weaker links at the opposite end of the chain.
I agree, good for the Greeks for rejecting austerity. The scenes shown on the news lately, no money, closed banks, no work,- the average Greek struggling to get by and make ends meet is not responsible for the Countries past borrowings when E.U. money was readily available
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Whilst I agree with what your saying in general Idopas Its worth remembering that Joe public has no control over what the government does most of time If our government did the same thing would you and me be to blame ? What angers me is your average person is left to suffer Do we really sit back back and let people run out of money hospitals run out of drugs etc A answer has to worked out people will suffer badly and the bankers will never get the money back and yes the Greeks need to their bit
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Whilst I agree with what your saying in general Idopas Its worth remembering that Joe public has no control over what the government does most of time If our government did the same thing would you and me be to blame ? What angers me is your average person is left to suffer Do we really sit back back and let people run out of money hospitals run out of drugs etc A answer has to worked out people will suffer badly and the bankers will never get the money back and yes the Greeks need to their bit
Well I agree in the main. But this Joe Public thing is interesting. In the end the government is one we elect, and can also remove. Now I know that opens a whole can of worms about democracy, but I do believe that in the main we get the governments we want or deserve (if we don't get involved).
And no, we should not let hospitals run out of drugs and people have no money. But we do in Somalia, North Korea and other countries each day, and it is wrong!!!!
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There must have been many meetings between the creditors and the debtors. From what i understand both parties were close to a repayment plan but i think the demands imposed were impossible to meet from a debtors perspective.
I think the eurozone got fed up with Greece and the feeling ended up being reciprocated.
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Of course Greece, like a lot of other countries and individuals, has been 'lent' too much theoretical money, but exactly what the banks, Wall St, The City of London etc learned from 2008 was that it did not matter how many un-repayable loans they make - they will always be bailed out by the tax-payer. So as long as it all looks good on the theoretical balance sheet, they reward themselves and carry on. That is what is not sustainable. There is no one in control of how money in the world works - just a series of computer programmes and drone people to maximise returns so that people who already have the wealth can keep it growing to the detriment of all those that don't. The school of 'trickle-down' economics has been a disaster for the vast majority of people in the World and we are just at the beginning of the consequences.
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It's actually quite simple.
http://beta.sambal.be/updates/de-griekse-crisis-uitgelegd-met-kattengifs-f8eec122-4159-4d76-9b2f-cbd8b531f5bc
Sorry, but it is in Dutch :)
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In the last uk election only 36% of voters actually voted tory but hey that's good old British democracy for you So did we really get the government we voted for and deserve.
So what next for Greece Anarchy, riots, looting social unrest whilst the fat cats sit back and the news channels get there dramatic viewer grabbing scenes. Lets hope not
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In the last uk election only 36% of voters actually voted tory but hey that's good old British democracy for you So did we really get the government we voted for and deserve.
be careful what you wish for. If seats were doled out purely in relation to the way votes were cast, we'd have UKIP MPs now.
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Of course Greece, like a lot of other countries and individuals, has been 'lent' too much theoretical money, but exactly what the banks, Wall St, The City of London etc learned from 2008 was that it did not matter how many un-repayable loans they make - they will always be bailed out by the tax-payer.
Except of course Lehmanns which the US did not bail out.
And the Icelandic banks too.
If other banks had been allowed to go to the wall, the real losers would have been as always the poorest - not necessarily because they lost savings but because their employers would have been unable to borrow effectively meaning their jobs would have been lost.
Part of the problem with this is that the Euro was always a triumph of hope over reality - it would only work if the economies of the countries who are members were roughly in step or could keep in step by managing tax rates, interest rates, money supply, government spending - and even from day one there were about four or five economies which actually met the supposed criteria; Germany, Luxembourg, Netherlands and I think Belgium and possibly Ireland. The French didn't and Greece certainly didn't - but the political dream was allowed to supersede the figures. And by surrendering some of the national control over how to balance books the Greek people (and the Spanish and the Irish and the Cypriots etc) are suffering. If Greece had retained the drachma, they could have tried to tax and spend or borrow and spend their way out of their difficulties. Maybe they would have succeeded.
Maybe we are reaching the start of the end of "the system". More likely we are making our way towards a variation of what has gone on before. If lessons are learned maybe the variation may include more cutting our cloth accordingly both as individuals and countries - and that in my opinion would be a generally good thing.
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Of course Greece, like a lot of other countries and individuals, has been 'lent' too much theoretical money, but exactly what the banks, Wall St, The City of London etc learned from 2008 was that it did not matter how many un-repayable loans they make - they will always be bailed out by the tax-payer. So as long as it all looks good on the theoretical balance sheet, they reward themselves and carry on. That is what is not sustainable. There is no one in control of how money in the world works - just a series of computer programmes and drone people to maximise returns so that people who already have the wealth can keep it growing to the detriment of all those that don't. The school of 'trickle-down' economics has been a disaster for the vast majority of people in the World and we are just at the beginning of the consequences.
Ah the old "theoretical money" argument. Actually it was real money, it may have moved around a balance sheet but at some point people draw it out of a cash machine. Real money.
In the end if we extend your logic, no one is really in control of anything, it has all got too big anyway.
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https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/135 (https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/135)
This article may be of some interest here. The attitude that the people of Germany and Belgium have toward the Greeks is horrible.
Quote from the article (not mine)
"The people of Europe need to realise that they were all played, too. Taxpayers' money was pumped, not into Greece, but into failing banks, like everywhere else. Profit has been privatised and risk nationalised. They need to stop blaming the canary for coming up from the mine half dead. "
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https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/135 (https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/135)
This article may be of some interest here. The attitude that the people of Germany and Belgium have toward the Greeks is horrible.
What have we done now!? I don't read anything about the Belgian people in your article to be honest. Not even the Belgian government.
Mind you, our government right now is... well... let's not go there... But do not confuse the government with "the people".
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Ok sorry the government not people. it does mention Brussels though and that's in Belgium.
I will step out of this topic because I don't know enough.
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Me too, Amandistan. Trying to explain / understand the utterly poisonous spiders-web of current European economics to me is like trying to explain algebra to a fish. I'm not a stupid man, I've tried, truly I have, but the only sense I can make out of it is that the whole thing was doomed from the start, there's no easy way out of it and a lot of innocent ordinary folks are going to suffer because of it...
Still, a lot of political folks are making a lot of money out of it, so that's something... ::)
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When asked recently about Greek Debt Restructuring the Irish PM here said "No way, not a consideration. They are either in or out."
The Greeks have voted against accepting the demands of the debt holders. And, guess what, the message from the Irish PM and the parties here changes to "debt restructuring was always going to be required". And that message changed within minutes of the result in Greece.
What will be interesting is how far they will go to support Greece and what that means for other people who have suffered oppression for the sake of bondholder interests. That is the huge problem. How can they possibly give concessions to Greece when it would be required to extend similar concessions to Ireland, Spain, Portugal, and even Itialy.
And if there is going to be an exit then likelihood is we will see regional conflict escalate to focus peoples minds, consumer prices go through the roof, and holidays in Greece being worth every Drachma if you can tolerate the risk of ISIS interfering as the new weapon of fear.
At the end of all of this, what I find insulting is that they think this oppression can continue on a global scale. They underestimate the pace of change that technology is driving and the transparency that it brings. Going to be an interesting few decades.
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Ok sorry the government not people. it does mention Brussels though and that's in Belgium.
I will step out of this topic because I don't know enough.
Amanda, in political terms, when articles mention 'Brussels', they invariably mean the EU as an organization (as that is where the EU HQ is based), as opposed to the Belgium people and Government!
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This is so complicated an issue that I don't think that there's a "right" way around it. If there is, I can't see it. Someone is going to end up getting royally buggered, and I have a feeling that it will be the working, taxpaying people of Greece.
Unsustainable debts to foreign banks and governments is nothing new, after all. Third World debt is still alive and thriving - how the hell can Greece expect any relief when the money-grabbers won't cancel the debts of countries where 90% of the workforce live in poverty?
I think that the bail-out culture that we live in (at least for banks and governments) is purely aimed at making more money for those that already have so much that it's become meaningless. If we want to do anything about helping people in other countries develop their societies, maybe debt relief / cancellation should be our way forward.
As I said, I don't know. I just hope that the Greek people don't get too badly screwed over when the politicians and ******-bankers are picking over the corpse of their economic recover.
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jackroadkill I agree with a lot of what you say, but do you not think the Greeks bear some responsibility as well?
It is ok to shout about evil banks and the EU, but in the end the Greeks had to take bailouts because they spend far to much on state largesse and their tax collecting system is one of the poorest in the western world. No money just comes from a bank, for banks to have money they must get it from people who work hard and taxes from people who work hard. So we can say evil banks, but in the end that is your and my money!
I do accept that the EU and the IMF have played a long term silly game here as well. And screwing Greece to the ground means we, the taxpayer, will never get our money back! So again that is not at all clever.
As everyone says here, it is complex. On one hand we have Greece who borrowed the cash, have done little to reform their economy and now won't/can't pay our money back and the EU/IMF who are so invested in this EU superstate one currency thing, they are not thinking logically and will do anything to keep their centralising experiment on track. I'm just happy I live here at the moment! :)
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Ok sorry the government not people. it does mention Brussels though and that's in Belgium.
I will step out of this topic because I don't know enough.
Amanda, in political terms, when articles mention 'Brussels', they invariably mean the EU as an organization (as that is where the EU HQ is based), as opposed to the Belgium people and Government!
I knew the EU headquarters was in Brussels. It just did not register with me in the article.
That's why I need to keep out of such conversations.
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9 days now in iceland
haven't read the thread, camping cooking working
so interested in the matter, got some thoughts but only a f**** dumbphone to write
had a tense feeling when i left cause of referendum and anyway
watch "inside job" documentary an inside view of the banking scheme
watch" collapse "docu..saw it several years ago and recently again so up to date in predictments and greek
free your mind of the money paradime
we have to build societys which rely on life power instead of money power
today money has power
its a religion a belief
humans dont need money don't argue about that its a fact
think workers in a factory whi h has to close cUse of $ probs but all workers and mzachines
still can produce
sry bout wild style writing i stop this now
hope the greeks are the beginning of the changing of the system fastly
change is happening
hope transition will not be too violent
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jackroadkill I agree with a lot of what you say, but do you not think the Greeks bear some responsibility as well?
It is ok to shout about evil banks and the EU, but in the end the Greeks had to take bailouts because they spend far to much on state largesse and their tax collecting system is one of the poorest in the western world. No money just comes from a bank, for banks to have money they must get it from people who work hard and taxes from people who work hard. So we can say evil banks, but in the end that is your and my money!
I do accept that the EU and the IMF have played a long term silly game here as well. And screwing Greece to the ground means we, the taxpayer, will never get our money back! So again that is not at all clever.
As everyone says here, it is complex. On one hand we have Greece who borrowed the cash, have done little to reform their economy and now won't/can't pay our money back and the EU/IMF who are so invested in this EU superstate one currency thing, they are not thinking logically and will do anything to keep their centralising experiment on track. I'm just happy I live here at the moment! :)
Again, I agree with you, Idopas. I think the distinction needs to be made between the Greek state and the Greek people; I think the latter will pay for the former's mistakes. It's just a question of how much pain they will be subjected to.
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Now firstly I am no fan of Mr Farage, ( or any other party leaders) however what he stood up and said today in the European Parliament shows he has balls and telling it as it is sometimes really is how to do things.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=94UcyJnRcGU
I work in Germany and around 80% of the work force in the firm are Greek, so I appreciate the predicament they find themselves in but most knew this was coming ages ago hence moving to Germany for work.
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Fckin hell nasty Nigel said something remotely sensible
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If this was as simple as refusal to pay off a debt then the situation would be far different. But it is not. It isn't your high street banking system. It is not about cash from cash machines but about a globalised finance industry imposing it's desires on 7 billion and counting. Yeah I know that's a drama queen sentence but under the complex layers of invention it's what it all boils down to. The situation in Greece is a symptom of a global system and we in Europe should remember that and not see this in terms of it's impact on the Eurozone/EU but as a reaction to the ever growing power and control of the finance industry over everything, everywhere. The needs and requirements of corporations and shareholders have pre-eminence over the needs and requirements of people. To my mind a fundamental imbalance. And when did any of us have a say on this? Don't give me nonsense about elections, it's not about national elections, it's grown beyond national boundaries - when was there a global vote on any of this? People are becoming ever more powerless, without influence and voice on the structures that control their lives Pinko, lefty idealism - possibly, 1%-v-99% Anonymous style sloganisms - maybe. But brevity has never been a strong point of mine ::) and trying to explain myself in one paragraph hasn't been easy ;D . I very much doubt that the reason any Greek person voted the right way was because they felt the way I do but in effect they stuck two fingers up to all of that and that is why I salute the Greeks for taking a stance.
Reading back, my use of the words "UKIP thought on a big scale" was somewhat sweeping and I should have been more precise and said Anti-foreigner. I'll further clarify that I was trying to relate the views of pretty much everyone I'd discussed this with that day. I also specifically stated they were simplistic solutions. I have not suggested that a different view to mine was automatically "Ukip".I was, albeit clumsily, trying to paint a picture of what I was hearing and I'm afraid to say that a couple of days later it's pretty much the same. I will admit that this probably says more about south east England than it does about the Greek situation.
In his 2nd post JS raised the issue of sustainability and this is a very important seemingly unaddressed issue. If a system can't be supported now then how on earth can it be supported in a future that assumes growth just to finance current debt?
The results and repercussions of the whole thing are still being played out. The game hasn't finished yet has it? Which of us really knows what each interested party has to do to shore up it's defences?
I'm neither an international financier nor am I Greek. So none of this has an immediate impact on me or my life. I can afford to sit here and pontificate :P
Pensioners in Greece probably can't >:(
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If this was as simple as refusal to pay off a debt then the situation would be far different. But it is not. It isn't your high street banking system. It is not about cash from cash machines but about a globalised finance industry imposing it's desires on 7 billion and counting. Yeah I know that's a drama queen sentence but under the complex layers of invention it's what it all boils down to. The situation in Greece is a symptom of a global system and we in Europe should remember that and not see this in terms of it's impact on the Eurozone/EU but as a reaction to the ever growing power and control of the finance industry over everything, everywhere. The needs and requirements of corporations and shareholders have pre-eminence over the needs and requirements of people. To my mind a fundamental imbalance. And when did any of us have a say on this? Don't give me nonsense about elections, it's not about national elections, it's grown beyond national boundaries - when was there a global vote on any of this? People are becoming ever more powerless, without influence and voice on the structures that control their lives Pinko, lefty idealism - possibly, 1%-v-99% Anonymous style sloganisms - maybe. But brevity has never been a strong point of mine ::) and trying to explain myself in one paragraph hasn't been easy ;D . I very much doubt that the reason any Greek person voted the right way was because they felt the way I do but in effect they stuck two fingers up to all of that and that is why I salute the Greeks for taking a stance.
Right on the nail, Anna.
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So the Greeks have bowed down to the financial gun pointed at their head
Looks like the bankers and the corporations have their pound of flesh and new even bigger 50 billion loan secured, these people are like hungry loan sharks lending money to the most desperate in the hope that their children can one day pay it . If the uk government give a fck why don't they start by giving the Greeks their cultural artifacts they stole from them or at least a fair price for them
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So the Greeks have bowed down to the financial gun pointed at their head
Looks like the bankers and the corporations have their pound of flesh and new even bigger 50 billion loan secured, these people are like hungry loan sharks lending money to the most desperate in the hope that their children can one day pay it . If the uk government give a fck why don't they start by giving the Greeks their cultural artifacts they stole from them or at least a fair price for them
Let me put the contra point of view.
The Greeks have borrowed tax money from other EU countries (that is all of us), refused to pay back on terms THEY agreed to and now have borrowed another huge slice of hardworking peoples cash with no firm agreement to reform or indeed pay that back as well.
The Greeks, and again I understand it is mainly politicians and the people suffer, could refuse to take any more cash. But they haven't. So really they are sticking up two fingers, which you are applauding, while grabbing cash with the other.
And whilst I agree with artefacts a bit, however they now owe us all shitloads, so I think we should hold those as collateral until they pay some of our money back? It's ok to blame evil banks, and I'm no fan of banks, but don't let the borrower off the hook either.
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The needs and requirements of corporations and shareholders have pre-eminence over the needs and requirements of people.
Hi Anna. Please tell me what you think a shareholder is and does please? :)
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The needs and requirements of corporations and shareholders have pre-eminence over the needs and requirements of people.
Hi Anna. Please tell me what you think a shareholder is and does please? :)
;D
Surely you can do better than that somewhat patronising response? The implication presumably being that I am unable to grasp the fact that shareholders are people too. That's a bit lame really. Interestingly you don't engage on wider issues such as imbalance or sustainability.
Anyway, it's Sunday so I'm off to the Church of La-La Land and I guess you are off to the Temple of Mammon :D
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it's not complicated
privat banks have the licence to print money out of thin air
they loan it with interest to governments
interest creates more money that wasn't and isn't there
it's a scheme a fraud
the system has to collapse sometime by rules of physics
i really recommend to watch the "inside job" documentary
its not a conspiracy thing. most actual acteurs of of the system like directors , wall street vultures
etc. are being interviewd. its areally good explanation of the financial system and the psyche, total lack of moral, of the traders.
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So, the IMF's debt sustainability analysis suggests that public debt in Greece will hit 200% within 2 years (with a likelihood of a worse outcome) but 2 weeks ago the very same fund stated a peak of 177% falling to 144% by 2022: today it states 170% in 2022. Now it also suggests that a 30 year grace period will be required before Greece starts repayments, that £61 billion will need to be pumped in over the next 3 years alone and that finance needs will rise above the 15% level deemed safe by the IMF itself. This means that debt will be unsustainable for decades and therefore according to it's own rules the IMF cannot put money into any "bailout" .............................
The dance goes on though huh?
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The needs and requirements of corporations and shareholders have pre-eminence over the needs and requirements of people.
Hi Anna. Please tell me what you think a shareholder is and does please? :)
;D
Surely you can do better than that somewhat patronising response? The implication presumably being that I am unable to grasp the fact that shareholders are people too. That's a bit lame really. Interestingly you don't engage on wider issues such as imbalance or sustainability.
Anyway, it's Sunday so I'm off to the Church of La-La Land and I guess you are off to the Temple of Mammon :D
I wasn't being patronising I assure you. But I admit I was challenging this blanket left leaning phrase implying that business and shareholders are somehow evils that we use to illustrate why people who usually have put nothing into a venture should somehow get something out, that was all. :)
I don't engage on subjects like imbalance and sustainability because as posed they are high level statements and I prefer specifics. If you mean imbalance in levels of earnings, then let's discuss it. As a person who is in engineering construction, sustainability means a lot of things, which one would you like me to address? Anna I think you have known me long enough to know I'm quite happy to have an opinion on just about anything! ;)
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Anna I think you have known me long enough to know I'm quite happy to have an opinion on just about anything! ;)
You and me both honey ;D
I work in the construction industry too - landscape & ecology so lets not muddy the waters on that score. But I think you are well aware that I've been gobbing on about the sustainability of the global financial system.
I grant you that concepts of imbalance and sustainability are high level statements but my personal view is that hiding ourselves in the detail means that the important big picture goes unaddressed. To my mind a very big mistake. I can't help picturing Nero ...............