Author Topic: Greece  (Read 3696 times)

cthulhu

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Re: Greece
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2015, 06:44:44 AM »
 9 days now in iceland
haven't read the thread, camping cooking working
so interested in the matter, got some thoughts but only a f**** dumbphone to write
had a tense feeling when i left cause of referendum and anyway

watch "inside job" documentary an inside view of the  banking scheme
watch" collapse "docu..saw it several years ago and recently again so up to date in predictments and greek

free your mind of the money paradime
we have to build societys which rely on life power instead of money power
today money has power
its a religion a belief
humans dont need money don't argue about that its a fact
think workers in a factory whi h has to close cUse of $ probs but all workers and  mzachines
still  can produce

sry bout wild style writing i stop this now
hope the greeks are the beginning of the changing of the system fastly
change is happening
 hope transition will  not be too violent




ever tried. ever failed. no matter.
try again. fail again. fail better.
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jackroadkill

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Re: Greece
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2015, 07:30:22 AM »
jackroadkill I agree with a lot of what you say, but do you not think the Greeks bear some responsibility as well?

It is ok to shout about evil banks and the EU, but in the end the Greeks had to take bailouts because they spend far to much on state largesse and their tax collecting system is one of the poorest in the western world. No money just comes from a bank, for banks to have money they must get it from people who work hard and taxes from people who work hard. So we can say evil banks, but in the end that is your and my money!

I do accept that the EU and the IMF have played a long term silly game here as well. And screwing Greece to the ground means we, the taxpayer, will never get our money back! So again that is not at all clever.

As everyone says here, it is complex. On one hand we have Greece who borrowed the cash, have done little to reform their economy and now won't/can't pay our money back and the EU/IMF who are so invested in this EU superstate one currency thing, they are not thinking logically and will do anything to keep their centralising experiment on track. I'm just happy I live here at the moment!  :)

Again, I agree with you, Idopas.  I think the distinction needs to be made between the Greek state and the Greek people; I think the latter will pay for the former's mistakes.  It's just a question of how much pain they will be subjected to.

MARKXE

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Re: Greece
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2015, 05:04:50 PM »
Now firstly I am no fan of Mr Farage, ( or any other party leaders) however what he stood up and said today in the European Parliament shows he has balls and telling it as it is sometimes really is how to do things.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=94UcyJnRcGU


I work in Germany and around 80% of the work force in the firm are Greek, so I appreciate the predicament they find themselves in but most knew this was coming ages ago hence moving to Germany for work.

Pol

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Re: Greece
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2015, 08:15:43 PM »
Fckin hell nasty Nigel said something remotely sensible
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Anna Woman von NRW

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Re: Greece
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2015, 09:31:55 PM »


If this was as simple as refusal to pay off a debt then the situation would be far different. But it is not. It isn't your high street banking system. It is not about cash from cash machines but about a globalised finance industry imposing it's desires on 7 billion and counting. Yeah I know that's a drama queen sentence but under the complex layers of invention it's what it all boils down to. The situation in Greece is a symptom of a global system and we in Europe should remember that and not see this in terms of it's impact on the Eurozone/EU but as a reaction to the ever growing power and control of the finance industry over everything, everywhere. The needs and requirements of corporations and shareholders have pre-eminence over the needs and requirements of people. To my mind a fundamental imbalance. And when did any of us have a say on this? Don't give me nonsense about elections, it's not about national elections, it's grown beyond national boundaries - when was there a global vote on any of this? People are becoming ever more powerless, without influence and voice on the structures that control their lives Pinko, lefty idealism - possibly, 1%-v-99% Anonymous style sloganisms - maybe. But brevity has never been a strong point of mine   ::) and trying to explain myself in one paragraph hasn't been easy  ;D . I very much doubt that the reason any Greek person voted the right way was because they felt the way I do but in effect they stuck two fingers up to all of that and that is why I salute the Greeks for taking a stance.

Reading back, my use of the words "UKIP thought on a big scale" was somewhat sweeping and I should have been more precise and said Anti-foreigner. I'll further clarify that I was trying to relate the views of pretty much everyone I'd discussed this with that day. I also specifically stated they were simplistic solutions. I have not suggested that a different view to mine was automatically "Ukip".I was, albeit clumsily, trying to paint a picture of what I was hearing and I'm afraid to say that a couple of days later it's pretty much the same. I will admit that this probably says more about south east England than it does about the Greek situation.

In his 2nd post JS raised the issue of sustainability and this is a very important seemingly unaddressed issue.  If a system  can't be supported now then how on earth can it be supported in a future that assumes growth just to finance current debt?

The results and repercussions of the whole thing are still being played out. The game hasn't finished yet has it? Which of us really knows what each interested party has to do to shore up it's defences?

I'm neither an international financier nor am I Greek. So none of this has an immediate impact on me or my life. I can afford to sit here and pontificate  :P

Pensioners in Greece probably can't  >:(
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jackroadkill

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Re: Greece
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2015, 11:19:52 AM »


If this was as simple as refusal to pay off a debt then the situation would be far different. But it is not. It isn't your high street banking system. It is not about cash from cash machines but about a globalised finance industry imposing it's desires on 7 billion and counting. Yeah I know that's a drama queen sentence but under the complex layers of invention it's what it all boils down to. The situation in Greece is a symptom of a global system and we in Europe should remember that and not see this in terms of it's impact on the Eurozone/EU but as a reaction to the ever growing power and control of the finance industry over everything, everywhere. The needs and requirements of corporations and shareholders have pre-eminence over the needs and requirements of people. To my mind a fundamental imbalance. And when did any of us have a say on this? Don't give me nonsense about elections, it's not about national elections, it's grown beyond national boundaries - when was there a global vote on any of this? People are becoming ever more powerless, without influence and voice on the structures that control their lives Pinko, lefty idealism - possibly, 1%-v-99% Anonymous style sloganisms - maybe. But brevity has never been a strong point of mine   ::) and trying to explain myself in one paragraph hasn't been easy  ;D . I very much doubt that the reason any Greek person voted the right way was because they felt the way I do but in effect they stuck two fingers up to all of that and that is why I salute the Greeks for taking a stance.

Right on the nail, Anna.

Pol

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Re: Greece
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2015, 09:36:08 AM »
So the Greeks have bowed down to the financial gun pointed at their head 
Looks like the bankers and the corporations have their pound of flesh and new even bigger 50 billion loan secured, these people are like hungry loan sharks lending money to the most desperate in the hope that their children can one day pay it . If the uk government give a fck why don't they start by giving the Greeks their cultural artifacts they stole from them or at least a fair price for them
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ldopas

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Re: Greece
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2015, 05:17:37 PM »
So the Greeks have bowed down to the financial gun pointed at their head 
Looks like the bankers and the corporations have their pound of flesh and new even bigger 50 billion loan secured, these people are like hungry loan sharks lending money to the most desperate in the hope that their children can one day pay it . If the uk government give a fck why don't they start by giving the Greeks their cultural artifacts they stole from them or at least a fair price for them

Let me put the contra point of view.

The Greeks have borrowed tax money from other EU countries (that is all of us), refused to pay back on terms THEY agreed to and now have borrowed another huge slice of hardworking peoples cash with no firm agreement to reform or indeed pay that back as well.

The Greeks, and again I understand it is mainly politicians and the people suffer, could refuse to take any more cash. But they haven't. So really they are sticking up two fingers, which you are applauding, while grabbing cash with the other.

And whilst I agree with artefacts a bit, however they now owe us all shitloads, so I think we should hold those as collateral until they pay some of our money back? It's ok to blame evil banks, and I'm no fan of banks, but don't let the borrower off the hook either.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 05:23:12 PM by ldopas »

ldopas

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Re: Greece
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2015, 05:20:08 PM »
The needs and requirements of corporations and shareholders have pre-eminence over the needs and requirements of people.

Hi Anna. Please tell me what you think a shareholder is and does please?  :)

Anna Woman von NRW

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Re: Greece
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2015, 11:37:18 AM »
The needs and requirements of corporations and shareholders have pre-eminence over the needs and requirements of people.

Hi Anna. Please tell me what you think a shareholder is and does please?  :)

 ;D

Surely you can do better than that somewhat patronising response? The implication presumably being that I am unable to grasp the fact that shareholders are people too. That's a bit lame really. Interestingly you don't engage on wider issues such as imbalance or sustainability.

Anyway, it's Sunday so I'm off to the Church of La-La Land and I guess you are off to the Temple of Mammon   :D



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cthulhu

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Re: Greece
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2015, 11:50:43 AM »
it's not complicated
privat banks have the licence to print money out of thin air
they loan it with interest to governments
interest creates more money that wasn't and isn't there
it's a scheme a fraud
the system has to collapse sometime by rules of physics

i really recommend to watch the "inside job" documentary
its not a conspiracy thing. most actual acteurs of of the system like directors , wall street vultures
etc. are being interviewd. its areally good explanation of the financial system and the psyche, total lack of moral, of the traders.
ever tried. ever failed. no matter.
try again. fail again. fail better.
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Anna Woman von NRW

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Re: Greece
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2015, 10:46:34 PM »
So, the IMF's debt sustainability analysis suggests that public debt in Greece will hit 200% within 2 years (with a likelihood of a worse outcome) but 2 weeks ago the very same fund stated a peak of 177% falling to 144% by 2022: today it states 170% in 2022.  Now it also suggests  that a 30 year grace period will be required before Greece starts repayments, that £61 billion will need to be pumped in over the next 3 years alone and that finance needs will rise above the 15% level deemed safe by the IMF itself. This means that debt will be unsustainable for decades and therefore according to it's own rules the IMF cannot put money into any "bailout" .............................

The dance goes on though huh?
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ldopas

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Re: Greece
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2015, 06:57:18 PM »
The needs and requirements of corporations and shareholders have pre-eminence over the needs and requirements of people.

Hi Anna. Please tell me what you think a shareholder is and does please?  :)

 ;D

Surely you can do better than that somewhat patronising response? The implication presumably being that I am unable to grasp the fact that shareholders are people too. That's a bit lame really. Interestingly you don't engage on wider issues such as imbalance or sustainability.

Anyway, it's Sunday so I'm off to the Church of La-La Land and I guess you are off to the Temple of Mammon   :D

I wasn't being patronising I assure you. But I admit I was challenging this blanket left leaning phrase implying that business and shareholders are somehow evils that we use to illustrate why people who usually have put nothing into a venture should somehow get something out, that was all.  :)

I don't engage on subjects like imbalance and sustainability because as posed they are high level statements and I prefer specifics. If you mean imbalance in levels of earnings, then let's discuss it. As a person who is in engineering construction, sustainability means a lot of things, which one would you like me to address? Anna I think you have known me long enough to know I'm quite happy to have an opinion on just about anything!  ;)

Anna Woman von NRW

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Re: Greece
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2015, 07:12:12 PM »
Anna I think you have known me long enough to know I'm quite happy to have an opinion on just about anything!  ;)

You and me both honey  ;D

I work in the construction industry too - landscape & ecology so lets not muddy the waters on that score. But I think you are well aware that I've been gobbing on about the sustainability of the global financial system.

I grant you that concepts of imbalance and sustainability are high level statements but my personal view is that hiding ourselves in the detail means that the important big picture goes unaddressed. To my mind a very big mistake. I can't help picturing Nero ...............

Waving at the devil that I know and the devil that I don't