The official NMA board
General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: Pol on July 31, 2015, 05:37:59 PM
-
Just wanted to get others opinion on the Calais immigration issue. I'm probably a bit too far away to feel the full impact whilst other members are probably struggling to get to work etc.
Anyway what's the answer if there is one, I'm sure the more intelligent than me (everyone lol) should have a view point
-
Oof ! There's a question to start the weekend, especially on a payday................ :P
I'll try to do my usual gobby bit before too many beers get drunk!
I don't think there is one single answer out there to resolve this. But if there is a route to a solution then I think we have to start looking seriously and honestly at the reasons why HUMAN BEINGS are prepared to risk everything to cross thousands of miles, put themselves in the hands of criminal gangs, face hardships and physical dangers that we in the West can barely comprehend to try and win the equivalent of the Euromillions jackpot. I don't see how a solution can be found unless that is addressed. If someone is that desperate they are prepared to risk it? ............................ Ask yourself, what would you do?
Fences, dogs, Army on the streets blah blah blah ............... really, how does that prevent someone coming? Are these are real answers or are they just sops to the "Twittersphere", to look like an Action Man? If someone is prepared to risk all hiding on a train mere meters away from 25,000V overhead power lines will a bigger fence truly make a difference?
This isn't softy, drippy left wing liberal nonsense. I'm not saying just open the gates and let anyone in. I'm saying that I think the answer lies in dealing with the reasons that make people move. I live in Kent and have seen the impact that Legal migration has had on communities and I'm sure others will have too. I don't pretend that there aren't real issues.
I'd also encourage folk to question what they are shown by the media, look beyond the headlines, soundbites and posturing - dig a bit deeper and in the words of the best non-Bradford band in the world "If we could just take a step back, a different picture we might see. Perhaps the man in the gutter is not so different from you?"
Anyway, I'll put me soapbox away now. I'm off to get pissed and indulge in a bit of Western angst cos work sucks ;D
-
Was thinking about posting a new thread but you guys got there first...
Most of these people are utterly desperate, running from horrors that the likes of us can't even imagine. Many of them are paying money that they can't afford (and many of them dying along the way) on the promise that Europe / England is the 'promised land'. Who can blame them for putting their lives at risk for something better?
And yet... the tiny country that is the UK can't take of everyone from all around the world. Sorry.
Europe is a huge continent. We're all supposed to be part of a union. So why are these poor, desperate people just being shoved from one place to another until they're prepared to die in a fuckin' tunnel when there could be a contingency plan that SOMEONE in the big bloody EU must have seen coming? You know, allow so many people into so many countries, take care of them, etc? I'm no genius but did NOBODY see this shit coming? ::)
(Also, David Cnuteron calling them a 'swarm'... that's just nasty... keep playing to the Daily Mail readers, you fuckin' prick >:( )
It's a horrible scenario all around. :-[
-
Don't expect to drive to the off licence Anna the roads are all grid locked down way I've heard
Yes your points and all totally correct, we can build all the fences send police and army it will never never get to the root of the problem and who can blame people for wanting a better life. If we were born in any of countries involved we would be the ones with the wire cutters , who wouldn't want to come to country where if you make to the house of lords you can get £300 a day for just walking a few hundred yards on top of wages and paid for house.
I don't know the answer, someone suggested that maybe we could invest in Libya and create more opportunities there
-
invest in Libya and create more opportunities there
I thought I was the one indulging in too many beers............... better dividends from arms sales :'(
Shite - I said I was putting my soapbox away didn't I ;D
-
Investment in all of Africa would help, not just Libya. I feel sure if the desperate people in Calais had the opportunities locally that they think they will find here, they would surely stay. So much investment there from China, why not the West ??
I suppose if there is going to be rich, there has to be poor.
-
libya was a terrible place for such a long time under the colonel. see his kid has been sentenced to death.
at the same time a massive amount of its resources were invested in reforestation, education, health....and even equality.
now profits are repatriated to a corporations coffers.
i'd like to know what you all think motivated the attempt?
1: profiteering of human traffickers?
3: desire to live off someone else's labour?
4: fear?
7: ambition?
-
Im a bit intrigued,if we're all under an EU banner, as to why people who made it to Europe see the UK as the final destination, when our powers that be are doing their best to refuse entry and in effect leave the problem in France. Buggered if I can get my head around that. We have no money to cope with an influx, let alone our own, so who is selling the idea its a land of plenty. Yes I get that for many its better than where theyve come from, and if there are genuine cases of asylum there are channels to go through but the people just seem to live in a non existance with no real answer to it. Buggered if I can see a way through it.
Im not entirely sure Western corporations can be held soley to account because if they withdraw investment, then its still the same for the poor. Id suggest its corrupt governments keeping money from filtering down, which I cant see a way to stop either if thats the ethos.
-
Most of the countries they have came from are ex British colonies and they speak English that's why the bastard children Is the uk seen as a 'soft touch ' , I'm not sure exactly what we are doing differently than people want to come here other than Germany etc
-
Oof ! There's a question to start the weekend, especially on a payday................ :P
I'll try to do my usual gobby bit before too many beers get drunk!
I don't think there is one single answer out there to resolve this. But if there is a route to a solution then I think we have to start looking seriously and honestly at the reasons why HUMAN BEINGS are prepared to risk everything to cross thousands of miles, put themselves in the hands of criminal gangs, face hardships and physical dangers that we in the West can barely comprehend to try and win the equivalent of the Euromillions jackpot. I don't see how a solution can be found unless that is addressed. If someone is that desperate they are prepared to risk it? ............................ Ask yourself, what would you do?
Fences, dogs, Army on the streets blah blah blah ............... really, how does that prevent someone coming? Are these are real answers or are they just sops to the "Twittersphere", to look like an Action Man? If someone is prepared to risk all hiding on a train mere meters away from 25,000V overhead power lines will a bigger fence truly make a difference?
This isn't softy, drippy left wing liberal nonsense. I'm not saying just open the gates and let anyone in. I'm saying that I think the answer lies in dealing with the reasons that make people move. I live in Kent and have seen the impact that Legal migration has had on communities and I'm sure others will have too. I don't pretend that there aren't real issues.
I'd also encourage folk to question what they are shown by the media, look beyond the headlines, soundbites and posturing - dig a bit deeper and in the words of the best non-Bradford band in the world "If we could just take a step back, a different picture we might see. Perhaps the man in the gutter is not so different from you?"
Anyway, I'll put me soapbox away now. I'm off to get pissed and indulge in a bit of Western angst cos work sucks ;D
Spot on, Anna. What gets forgotten is that these are people.
-
Im a bit intrigued,if we're all under an EU banner, as to why people who made it to Europe see the UK as the final destination, when our powers that be are doing their best to refuse entry and in effect leave the problem in France. Buggered if I can get my head around that. We have no money to cope with an influx, let alone our own, so who is selling the idea its a land of plenty.
I broadly agree with most of the posts here. However I quoted this above because it asks a couple of questions.
Firstly you ask why migrants see the UK as last port of call, well I expect not all do, but those that do there is an elephant in the room that being a bit left of centre as a board no one has mentioned (except to have a dig at the Lords which I agree with). And that is we do have a working economy like it or not, we do not have genocide, we do have a welfare system and we do have a free NHS at the point of need. Most countries certainly do not have these, so for all our moaning at our lives we do need to remember this. :)
I've travelled a lot, mainly for work, and I can say that the view that we have generous benefits or indeed benefits at all is something others DO view about us. Now before Master R accuses me of being Richard Littlejohn, I am not for one moment saying migrants do not come here and work, because most do.
Don't take my word for it though about how we are seen, let the Mayor of Calais, Natacha Bouchart say it. She said "Britain was an ‘El Dorado’ for thousands of migrants flocking to Calais because of generous state handouts. They want to go to England because they can expect better conditions on arrival there than anywhere else in Europe or even internationally."
As for why people come here there must be a thousand reasons; to find work, to build a better life, to make use of the welfare, to free persecution....who knows. While I love the influx of influences into this country, we do have finite space. And I also get fed up of reading right wing papers going on about migrants coming to live off welfare, and left wing papers accusing anyone with an opinion as racist.
And in answer to the second question in the quote, we do indeed have money in this country, we are one of the wealthiest on the planet.
-
The UK should let more people in and stop hating the idea of immigration.
The UK borders are ridiculous even for non EU visitors. You are going to question someone for thirty minutes just for wishing to visit for a week and a half. Then ask about my personal life. The common travel zone does not do this shit but UK immigration has a stick up it's arse.
Britain has at some point ruled half the world yet they can not let people of past-occupied nations in?
-
The UK should let more people in and stop hating the idea of immigration.
The UK borders are ridiculous even for non EU visitors. You are going to question someone for thirty minutes just for wishing to visit for a week and a half. Then ask about my personal life. The common travel zone does not do this shit but UK immigration has a stick up it's arse.
Britain has at some point ruled half the world yet they can not let people of past-occupied nations in?
God where to start with this.
Firstly the UK does not "hate" the idea of immigration. We do take immigrants.
Why pick on the UK, which actually treats immigrants fairly well compared to your country and most others around the globe.
Secondly, do you not think a country has a right and a duty to control its borders? How many people do you think should be allowed to settle in the UK, or indeed any country with a finite land boundary?
Why do we (oh and any country around the globe by the way) question people when they want to come in. Ever heard of terrorists? Why do they question you? Erm because you are an American, not an EU member.
I get quite perturbed when people post stuff about us as if we are damn N Korea when there are a hundred countries out there worse than us. No we are not perfect, but we are by far not the worst. If you don't think so try smuggling some drugs into the UK, then try it in Singapore.
-
I'm very liberal socialistic person. I would love to say yes let people come here and yes immigrants pay in more than they take out currently. Sadly there isn't enough housing, schools hospitals etc etc if everyone was allowed in and maybe we need to get stricter with benefits and the nhs.
Yes I agree that in the past we enslaved these people ancestors and raped there countries for natural resources, should we have pay for the crimes of our forefathers ?
-
Yes I agree that in the past we enslaved these people ancestors and raped there countries for natural resources, should we have pay for the crimes of our forefathers ?
Completely agree with the latter part of this sentence. But the first part? Did we enslave and rape every country? I think not. Also tell me one country who does not have blood on its hands in its history? Because there really is not one. Time to stop beating ourselves up. :)
-
Thought this was a very balanced view, so here is the link judge for yourself
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/calais-crisis-the-seven-claims-made-about-the-migrants--and-the-reality-10430790.html
-
'Now before Master R accuses me of being Richard Littlejohn...'
Bloody hell, Idopas, single me out, why don't you?
I would never accuse anyone of being Richard Littlejohn. That's an awful insult. I might call you a cu...
(... joking, mate...) ;)
I agree with you to a certain extent. I'm sure someone made this point before (but can't find the exact quote) but it's apparently written into the whole ethos of the EU that an asylum seeker should be granted sanctuary in the FIRST country that they land in. That ain't happening, they're being given free train travel out of the country in question (this is a stone cold FACT) and pushed in the direction of France and, therefore, the UK. Someone else's problem, eh? And now the UK is bearing the brunt because of what the EU is too cowardly and ignorant to do... once again, ain't the whole EU concept utter fuckin' bollocks, it's every country for itself! >:(
I truly pity these poor folks... but they aren't being let down by the UK, the EU is treating them like fuckin' rodents and it's disgusting.
-
Yepp it was fairly impartial for a left wing paper.
Though when "who has taken who" is published and it shows France and Germany have taken more in, I wish they would also quote the square kilometres of our countries as they are much bigger in landmass so it is all relative.
Something else occurred to me reading some of the posts here criticising us. How many of these people who land in Italy and Greece have Russia taken or other countries never mentioned when we are being ranted at? Russia sought to invite more immigration two years ago, but the uptake was comically low...mmm wonder why? ;)
-
Single you our MR, moi? :D
Yepp I agree with your post in the main. Seems that the rules only apply if countries can be arsed keeping to them. But as I said this isn't just an EU thing, where are all the other countries non EU helping while we get slagged off?
Though the concept of being "let down" is an interesting one. You can only be let down if you were promised something in the first place, and to be fair we didn't invite significant numbers to march down the chunnel!
-
Just a thought on some of the previous comments. G.B is not the only E.U. country to have formerly had an empire. Belgium, Holland, France, Spain, Portugal, etc have all formerly had an empire. The 1800's land grab was a Euro wide race. We may have had by far the biggest, but certainly not the only one. Do people in Calais from the Congo want to go to Belgium, or do they want to come here.
-
Single you our MR, moi? :D
Yepp I agree with your post in the main. Seems that the rules only apply if countries can be arsed keeping to them. But as I said this isn't just an EU thing, where are all the other countries non EU helping while we get slagged off?
Though the concept of being "let down" is an interesting one. You can only be let down if you were promised something in the first place, and to be fair we didn't invite significant numbers to march down the chunnel!
No, they were promised nothing from anyone other than these disgusting bastards who took all their money to stick a couple of hundred poor souls in a sinking boat and told them 'yeah, Europe is the Promised Land...'
-
Okay, well, what makes no sense is that I am not a terrorist. There is nothing about me that suggests I am a terrorist and it's the same for most people. Okay, so to be fair most UK border guards are fine but you get the occasional border guard who wants to ruin lives.
People use no jobs as an excuse and that there are not enough for EU citizens. If so then why are many restaurants begging for people in the UK? It's because nobody wants those jobs. They could give it to non eu people who just simply want to work in the UK.
America is not my country. It's the nation in which i was born. I would give up my citizenship in a heart beat if possible.
I am not saying that they treat immigrants well. They don't even treat their citizens well. The subject was Calais which usually involves UK immigration. That is why i am mentioning the UK.
People don't use Calais as a gateway into Germany or the Netherlands or even France but the UK!
-
Okay, well, what makes no sense is that I am not a terrorist. There is nothing about me that suggests I am a terrorist and it's the same for most people.
Well I know you aren't, but how do they? What exactly does a terrorist look like that makes it easy for them to spot? They come in all shapes and sizes.
-
Because most people are not.
Sending back asylum seekers and people who wish to work for a better life (when they can not even survive at home) is ethically wrong and I do not know how people who work in this field ever get to sleep at night.
A friends knows someone who actually married a man from Senegal. She was from the UK and he was not allowed to live with his wife. He was denied a visa. She became pregnant and he still did not get in. Basically immigration tore that family and others apart. Marriage doesn't even guarantee a visa.
One can argue that these people are just doing their job but their job ruins people's lives. Therefore they are not good people. Their job is morally wrong.
From your posts, one would take it that you are fairly conservative.
-
Sadly Amanda no country can take everyone and asylum seekers and economic migrates are separated issues. Try going to Australia or elsewhere
Sadly far too many people have abused the marriage system. I had a friend who was married to a guy from Mauritius, they had a baby son , a home and the guy was working and he ended up getting deported
-
Can you blame them for abusing the marriage system? When that is the only way to live in the country you desire, then fake marriages are the only way. I would do it.
-
From your posts, one would take it that you are fairly conservative.
Actually I believe I am a realist.
The fact you think people should be free to move without any reference to lack of resources, security, effect on the environment and how we feed everyone in areas the diasporas would move to, tells me you are perhaps a fantasist?
Never mind me, pay heed to other replies to you from people who are definitely left of centre who are making the same points as me.
-
Can you blame them for abusing the marriage system? When that is the only way to live in the country you desire, then fake marriages are the only way. I would do it.
Then you cant blame governments for kicking out the genuine with the false. I understand the ideal world where we'd all be free to go. However given our ability to hate each other and kill each other, its not difficult to see why free movement is restricted.
-
Well put, DrummyB, and put more succinctly than I could.
-
It's interesting to see where this thread has wandered and all the different elements that crop up.
This historical stuff - a spurious distraction. You can't change history, And pretty much every country has some skeletons in it's closet, was invaded/did the invading. Where does that end up? Can the English demand something from the French because of the Norman conquest? Do the French in turn go looking to Denmark because that's where the Norsemen came from? Or do we go further? Romans........... biblical times....... ? What matters is now not what happened then. Although of course there is the different issue of modern history which still unfolds around us. It's also a separate issue: What moral responsibility do we have as a consequence of foreign policy?
We also need to be clear on who we are talking about. Asylum seekers and Refugees are different to those who move on economic grounds. A very important distinction. Someone displaced from their home because of barrel bombs, murderous bands of fanatics, a mineral extraction corporation making the environment toxic or abuse of their HUMAN RIGHTS should be offered shelter. I fail to see how that can be anything other than a fait accompli.How can that even be a discussion?
As for economic migration. Should I choose to emigrate in the near future for my own benefit then I do not expect that country to just open it's arms up and say come on in. I expect to have something to offer, some skill or ability that will be of benefit to the society I'm asking to let me in. I would expect to learn the language, learn the culture and adapt myself to their way of life. If everyone's happy then off I go and everyone's a winner. I don't expect an automatic right to be there and I don't expect to have everything provided for me. Why should I ? Why should another society have to take me in because I want to move? Unless there is a benefit to them why would they? But of course, that raises another question. We live in an industrialised, globalised world where manufacturing, economic activity, food production blah blah blah..... moves at whim around the world depending on best interest. So, if all of that is globalised then why the feck is it different for people?
In terms of where the displaced end up and just how bad Calais really is, or how terrible our "immigrant crisis" is go ask Mr Google how many refugees are in Lebanon. I'm sure you can also ask him what that equates to in numbers per m2 related to population if you like but I doubt you'll need to.
We've not even started talking about the Mediterranean yet have we .................................
-
Excellent points Anna and well explained.
*doffs cap.
-
Saw this Daily Mail news article from 1938 today:
"German Jews pouring into this country
The way stateless Jews and Germans are pouring in from every port of this country is becoming an outrage. I intend to enforce the law to the fullest."
In these words, Mr Herbert Metcalde, the Old Street Magistrate yesterday referred to the number of aliens entering this country through the 'back door' -- a problem to which The Daily Mail has repeatedly pointed.
The number of aliens entering this country can be seen by the number of prosecutions in recent months. It is very difficult for the alien to escape the increasing vigilance of the police and port authorities.
Even if aliens manage to break through the defences, it is not long before they are caught and deported."
Looks like we've been here before.
-
Interesting read Anna. I suppose its also worth considering that 150,000 Brits leave the UK each year filling up areas such as the South of Spain piling on pressure to their health system / resources. Its not completely all one way.
-
Good(?) to see the Daily Mail hasnt changed in its garbage. I mistakenly said today it wanted us to return to 1950. Clearly its 1850.....
That aside. I still stand for asylum for those in genuine need, as Im sure most do. The EU is a seperate argument. But yeah. If its gonna be open borders then the door has to go both ways. Funny the uk exodus is seldom mentioned though.
-
We also need to be clear on who we are talking about. Asylum seekers and Refugees are different to those who move on economic grounds. A very important distinction.
Yepp, there can be few complaints about that! Those in GENUINE fear of their lives should be given safe harbour, we must stand for that.
I see the Mail is getting a bashing again! ::)
Personally I read the Mail, Guardian, Independent, Times and anything else I have time for as I find the truth is never in one of them, but a complex mix usually. Personally I think if you dismiss wholly everything a news outlet says then you are at risk of missing something for the sake of your own political expediency. That is my personal opinion! :)
-
I read an array of papers online but very seldomly. Just cant abide the Mail's Little England approach , when it then proceeds to rubbish everything in England. Equally the letters in are hate filled nonsense from the betterthanthems. I can pretty much make my own mind up on most things without editorial slants. Equally cant abide the Grauniads left wing hate everything state related slant. Im in the middle of the see saw. ;)
-
IMO in the same way cigarettes carry health warnings, food packaging declares the sugar/ fat content, newspapers should have a coloured box along the top of the front page declaring their political party elegance be it blue or red. After all plenty of people do believe everything they read.
-
I see the Mail is getting a bashing again! ::)
Yes and as usual, thoroughly deserved. A spade is a spade and we all know what that vile publication spews out each day.
-
Hello,
I just signed the petition, "Rt Hon David Cameron MP: Provide urgent medical support to vulnerable people in Calais."
I think this is important. Will you sign it too?
Here's the link:
http://www.change.org/p/rt-hon-david-cameron-mp-provide-urgent-medical-support-to-vulnerable-people-in-calais
Thanks,
pol
-
I see the Mail is getting a bashing again! ::)
Yes and as usual, thoroughly deserved. A spade is a spade and we all know what that vile publication spews out each day.
That is an opinion based on a personal view and bias. You are of course entitled to it, but many don't think like that and it don't make it a fact! :)
I'm with Drummyb. Im not a fan of the Mail, but the Guardian is the left wing version of that.
-
Interesting read Anna. I suppose its also worth considering that 150,000 Brits leave the UK each year filling up areas such as the South of Spain piling on pressure to their health system / resources. Its not completely all one way.
Well not quite. the rules for settling in Spain and claiming are VERY different from ours, many health services have to be paid for. Also many who go over there are pensioners and take their state pensions paid from the UK exchequer over to Spain to spending in their economy.
No picture is ever black and white!!! :)
-
OK, this is me on a paranoid theory thing again... but this whole 'UK is gonna be swamped with Africans who want to get free houses and free money and, I dunno, eat our pets or whatever' thing that's so prevalent in our media nowadays... doesn't it all seem a bit choreographed? I mean, this stuff has been going on for ages and in true fact, other countries have taken far more immigrants in than the UK... but them black people are swarming at the gate, it's Zulu all over again, someone bring in Stanley Baker and Michael Caine! :(
Could it be that the Tory controlled media are throwing this shit up to distract the easily-scared UK populace from the REAL bad things that they're doing, you know, ending tax credits and putting more young adults into poverty at the start of their lives so they'll always be indebted and scrabbling for scraps for the whole of their lives whilst the top couple of %%s cnuts dine on fuckin' swans or something?
OK, went off on one there... excuse me while I put my tin foil hat on again.
:-\
-
Actually MR im with you on it. If you feed peoples fears and give them a new enemy, you can cover a multitude of sins. In a months time, nothing will be written about Calais, but it wont have changed. As it hasnt in the months before now.
And the ones most screwed over, the poorer end of society, will be the ones blaming the "foreigners" as much as the middle classes.
-
I thought they used swans to wipe their mf arses. Sadly even the Greeks are taking in more people than us
-
I see the Mail is getting a bashing again! ::)
Yes and as usual, thoroughly deserved. A spade is a spade and we all know what that vile publication spews out each day.
That is an opinion based on a personal view and bias. You are of course entitled to it, but many don't think like that and it don't make it a fact! :)
I'm with Drummyb. Im not a fan of the Mail, but the Guardian is the left wing version of that.
Opinion = Yes
Bias = No
Fact = Open to dispute
Guardian, Independent, Al-Jazerra, New York Times, BBC, New York Post, Jerusalem Times, Kent Today : It's all angles of vision :)
-
I see the Mail is getting a bashing again! ::)
Yes and as usual, thoroughly deserved. A spade is a spade and we all know what that vile publication spews out each day.
That is an opinion based on a personal view and bias. You are of course entitled to it, but many don't think like that and it don't make it a fact! :)
I'm with Drummyb. Im not a fan of the Mail, but the Guardian is the left wing version of that.
Opinion = Yes
Bias = No
Fact = Open to dispute
Guardian, Independent, Al-Jazerra, New York Times, BBC, New York Post, Jerusalem Times, Kent Today : It's all angles of vision :)
Absolutely. And they are right sometimes and they are wrong sometimes. That balance of right and wrong is definitely coloured by ones biases. Everyone is bias to some extent, yes even me! :)
-
Actually MR im with you on it. If you feed peoples fears and give them a new enemy, you can cover a multitude of sins. In a months time, nothing will be written about Calais, but it wont have changed. As it hasnt in the months before now.
And the ones most screwed over, the poorer end of society, will be the ones blaming the "foreigners" as much as the middle classes.
While I have some sympathy with yours and MRs views. See what you have just done? :)
You accuse the press of basically throwing chaff up in the air to deflect from other issues, and in doing that do you not think you are doing just the same?
The in/out numbers in any country; count, security, resources, cohesion is a real important subject. One of the most important as we struggle with overpopulation (the planets most urgent problem imo), and Diasporas of people movements.
What troubles me is that every time there is a reasonable discussion, the right start getting xenophobic and the left start shouting cover up. Its really giving me a long term migraine! In this country now every subject has chaff thrown at it; nuclear, fracking, runways, nhs, aging populations etc. And by chaff, I don't mean reasoned debate.
We need to get back to what we used to be good at and that is stripping away the shit and examining the raw core evidence of issues and then taking fast effective action.
As far as labour movement goes, you don't need to convince me, I work in engineering/construction as you know and we regularly work in this country on projects with German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese, Chinese contractors who are brilliant. I myself had to train a load of them early this year for a project we managed, couldn't have met a nicer more competent bunch. Without labour movement major construction projects would not go ahead, trust me on this one.
-
"You accuse the press of basically throwing chaff up in the air to deflect from other issues, and in doing that do you not think you are doing just the same?"
Im not sure of your point mate??? How so??
-
Gotta say, Idopas, I am also a bit unsure about what you meant there...
The massive cuts to potentially vulnerable people are an undeniable fact.
This whole 'we're gonna be swarmed / killed / eaten by the African marauders at the gates' (OK, I'm going a bit over the top there...) is just, to use a blunt word, bullshit and, again, a smokescreen to cover up whats REALLY going on.
Clarification please, sir?
-
Gotta say, Idopas, I am also a bit unsure about what you meant there...
The massive cuts to potentially vulnerable people are an undeniable fact.
This whole 'we're gonna be swarmed / killed / eaten by the African marauders at the gates' (OK, I'm going a bit over the top there...) is just, to use a blunt word, bullshit and, again, a smokescreen to cover up whats REALLY going on.
Clarification please, sir?
Ok, its late but I will do my best! :)
Look at the middle of your post. Cameron did use the word swarm, but in the context of the issue. Now I don't agree with the word, but instead of concentrating on the migrant issue off the left wing press (and yourselves :D ) go focusing on a word that the knob probably didn't mean as offense.
Now MR, because of your political persuasion you've added "killed and eaten" by African marauders. Phrases I've never seen in any paper including the Mail. If I were a Guardian leftie I could now ask you why you put the context of eaten and African together and make some point there!!! ;) But I won't.
My issue was, and it's a few days, is that we damn a paper, political view usually based on our biases. The Mail gets mentioned all the time as if nothing it can ever say has any relevance to anything, which isn't true. Wholly denying a paper or view, for me anyway, because of our political leanings is dangerous. Just my opinion!
-
Er, Idopas, 'killed and eaten' was obviously an exaggeration in a black humour kind of a way. Personally, I wouldn't put it past the usual DM readership to believe it...
Gotta ask, you been on the DM website today? Their headline story, for many hours now, has been 'A Man with a KEY causes £9000 of damage to a £100,000 Aston Martin' and they post a picture of some black guy... not a single one of the 700+ comments is anything other than the likes of SEND 'EM BACK or whatever... tried to post something back, but my comments wouldn't be accepted...
You think the DM has been hacked or have the little Englanders finally gone all BNP and shit?
-
Is the daily mail the racist equivalent to what the daily sport was for perverts. Who buys this knuckle dragging trash
-
Lack of humanity is depressing,
"Cross the water or die trying"
"You could be there"
There's truth not the bile from the Daily Mail.
-
I never buy the DM but I do read the website as a barometer of what is going on in popular opinion... I can't deny, it does make me feel a bit superior... ;)
Also, posting comments about how all immigrants should be let into the country and given even more benefits... sad, I know, it's like bear-baiting, but the comments I get back make me laugh... ;D
-
Why doesn't the DM go the full way and offer their readers free membership of the nf/bnp/edl , oh that's right most of them joined up a long time ago.
And another point when did being a caring compassionate person who wanted a tiny bigger slice of the cake for the poor vulnerable and disabled make you a left winger
-
every newspaper has to "nourish" its selected readership. they are businesses after all. take it or leave it. personally I left when I joined the digital age.....
-
but there again im "mad" so why believe a word I say?
-
they are businesses after all.
Point well made.
-
Well thank you everyone for making my point better than I ever could in the last few posts! :)
The DM is not the BNP, just as the Guardian is not the Socialist Revolutionary Workers Party.
And while I'm certainly not defending many, not all though, of the gimps who comment on their site, the Guardian posts are just as bad from the other side. I read one last week that commented the problem with the country is all the "old shits who need to die now so the young can take over". Mmm nice.
Truth is, you are posting from your political bias. We all do it. I am a true floating voters, though I suspect a lot would say I'm right of centre on here. But Ive voted for many parties in my time.
I guess what I'm saying, (and before everyone starts shouting at me this is meant as a complement), is you lot are FAR too intelligent surely to be ranting at one newspaper you mostly don't read? Isn't it getting close to the DM readers going on about PC Liberal Guardianistas? :D
-
Id guess, Idopas, that given the nature of NMA, there probably is more of a left leaning following on here. Id possibly include myself in that, in some ways but equally as Ive said, I equally go in the centre. Definitely never to the right. And hand on heart. There may be some decent stories in the DM or Grauniad. But the overwhelming feeling im left with after reading them is despair/disgust at the nasty side of it. Which taints anything good.
-
Thing is ldopas you are posting about your assumptions of folks bias which, incidentally, is defined in the Oxford dictionary as "inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair". And whilst I've never talked for anyone else I don't believe my opinion of the Daily Mail is unfair. You may well disagree but that is your opinion and preorgative it is not bias. I'm 45 and have had more than my fill of what that business has to say and in particular go google what they allow Richard Littlejohn to publish - in general, let alone what is said about people like myself. It's not bias. It's my opinion based on experience.
It's disappointing that a thread discussing such a desperate issue warps into a slanging match about the inclinations of the British press.
This isn't about left or right it's about Humans.
-
not only that, but it's funny how the standard reply of rightwingers when people rightly attack the daily heil is 'but what about the guardian?'. The Guardian is certainly left of centre and vocal about it but it's a real paper, and while it's certainly selective on the things it chooses to cover, based on their editorial line, they are all real things and news items; in this respect its rightwing equivalents are the times or the torygraph, both definitely pro-tories but real papers.
the fail, on the other hand, is nothing more than a rabid racist, extreme right rag, which constantly makes shit up to suit their ends, with not even the slightest worry about whether there's any truth in what they claim and/or about verifying their sources, and when they caught they just drop it quietly and move on to peddling different lies. Latest example: just yesterday they had a feature on Laibach, the first western band to pay North Korea - in it they refer to them as a Slovakian (they're from Slovenia) fascist band (not only they certainly aren't, to my knowledge they have never been accused to being, or there's ever been any suggestion that they were - they've often used imagery from 1960's and 70's Yugoslavia to accompany their music, so if anything I they were political they'd be the opposite); and to finish in style, they then mention them playing Life is Life, describing it as one of the most famous songs they wrote (it's a cover by Australian band Opus).
By the way, obligatory disclaimer: I only know about this cos somebody posted the link on FB, I wouldn't use that rag to wipe my arse with, so I wouldn't have noticed otherwise :D
-
Because goods are free to move but not people
Oil is free to move but not people
Jobs are free to move but not people
Money is free to move but not people
-
Thing is ldopas you are posting about your assumptions of folks bias which, incidentally, is defined in the Oxford dictionary as "inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair". And whilst I've never talked for anyone else I don't believe my opinion of the Daily Mail is unfair. You may well disagree but that is your opinion and preorgative it is not bias. I'm 45 and have had more than my fill of what that business has to say and in particular go google what they allow Richard Littlejohn to publish - in general, let alone what is said about people like myself. It's not bias. It's my opinion based on experience.
It's disappointing that a thread discussing such a desperate issue warps into a slanging match about the inclinations of the British press.
This isn't about left or right it's about Humans.
I'm surprised you think that this has warped into a "slanging match", I think most people here have discussed it in a cogent and grown up way!
The issue is "desperate" and the response of both right and left wing press is very relevant as a lot of people seem to take their lead from it.
Ok, well if that is the thought I'll let it go. Shame really!
But as I've seen that I've taken (unwarranted I feel) kicking in another post as well, I'll put it down to "let's kick Ldopas in the nuts day"! :)
-
Thing is ldopas you are posting about your assumptions of folks bias which, incidentally, is defined in the Oxford dictionary as "inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair". And whilst I've never talked for anyone else I don't believe my opinion of the Daily Mail is unfair. You may well disagree but that is your opinion and preorgative it is not bias. I'm 45 and have had more than my fill of what that business has to say and in particular go google what they allow Richard Littlejohn to publish - in general, let alone what is said about people like myself. It's not bias. It's my opinion based on experience.
It's disappointing that a thread discussing such a desperate issue warps into a slanging match about the inclinations of the British press.
This isn't about left or right it's about Humans.
I'm surprised you think that this has warped into a "slanging match", I think most people here have discussed it in a cogent and grown up way!
The issue is "desperate" and the response of both right and left wing press is very relevant as a lot of people seem to take their lead from it.
I've been on this and earlier versions of this board on and off since about 2003, and I can certainly tell you there have been times of horrific "slanging" and times of extreme boredom as people go the opposite way and won't say boo to a goose. I think at the moment the board has got the balance completely right, in that as now seem able to discuss controversial subjects in an adult reasonably unemotive way! Ok, well if that is the thought I'll let it go. Shame really!
But as I've seen that I've taken (unwarranted I feel) kicking in another post as well, I'll put it down to "let's kick Ldopas in the nuts day"! :)
Bleedin 'ell - it's all gettin' a bit Lemon innit ? ;D
I meant slanging match in generalised terms, in a wafty arm wavy sort of way not a poke at individuals. I guess I was trying to say that I felt that the whole press question is a diversion and takes the thread into a whole different debate - which could be a lively new thread :) Certainly not trying to kick you in the nuts! Not my style - if I was getting lairy I'd poke ya in the eyes :D
In the meantime now we see Macedonia ....................... seems we may soon see new Calais's appearing in many places and how many more people are gonna be needing to flee their homeland?
-
Bleedin 'ell - it's all gettin' a bit Lemon innit ? ;D
I meant slanging match in generalised terms, in a wafty arm wavy sort of way not a poke at individuals. I guess I was trying to say that I felt that the whole press question is a diversion and takes the thread into a whole different debate - which could be a lively new thread :) Certainly not trying to kick you in the nuts! Not my style - if I was getting lairy I'd poke ya in the eyes :D
In the meantime now we see Macedonia ....................... seems we may soon see new Calais's appearing in many places and how many more people are gonna be needing to flee their homeland?
Hehe. Apologies. I probably had me hackles up from the hassle I was getting in another thread! ;)
Though I am stumped at the "a bit Lemon", is that cockney rhyming slang? I've tried to think what the slang is?
-
No - not cockney rhyming slang. Dunno what you'd call it. Maybe Southern Estuary English Commoners Patois ? ;D
Anyway lemons taste quite sharp therefore getting a bit lemon.
Maybe I should start a "Learn The Language" thread for the swarm of new arrivals :P