Author Topic: Merch and Brexit  (Read 1194 times)

Bever

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Merch and Brexit
« on: April 24, 2021, 12:16:58 PM »
Don't ask me why, but I'm bitten by the vinyl bug again. I'm delighted it's reviving, and am ordering LP's left and right. And also in the UK...

Last week I ordered 5 Public Service Broadcasting LP's. Price: €111.82. Steep, but OK. Posting & Packaging: €31.85. Ouch! But OK, I decided, five records, let's just bite the bullet and order.

Yesterday 4 were delivered. Mailwomen rings the bell, asking for €43 in customs... The fifth one being sent separately will just add more customs craziness.

To anyone who was and still is in favor of Brexit: **** you! Really, just **** you.

What will UK bands do in future? Will they keep their webshops in the UK and see a decrease in sales? Or move them to mainland Europe so they can be sent to the European market more easily? I mean, ordering from NMA webshop will be the same shit. What will NMA do?

ldopas

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2021, 07:28:41 PM »
Instead of the swear words, just download the tracks. No postage and packaging. Vinyl was great in the 1980s I remember. But if you do not want to pay tariffs, then we have a choice. Do not order tangible products. Just saying.

For me, whilst it was great in the past to get a 12 inch slab of plastic to put on a chunky turntable with two sizeable speakers all at huge prices. And of course find room for them. My vinyl takes up a room in my house, along with the CDs. My computer has half a terabyte of music which I can put on a small device and listen to the lot anywhere; car, whilst walking. No contest. I don't need to pay tariffs.

Oh and I think not having plastic, and plastic sent from other countries in vans/trains/planes is surely better for the environment?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 07:35:56 PM by ldopas »

jc

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2021, 09:51:37 PM »
I have heard an argument that streaming is actually worse for the environment if you consider the energy of all the infrastructure to get the music from the cloud to your ears; and as a committed record listener I'm sticking to that story.

Cheers

jc

Bever

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2021, 10:34:47 AM »
Instead of the swear words, just download the tracks. No postage and packaging. Vinyl was great in the 1980s I remember. But if you do not want to pay tariffs, then we have a choice. Do not order tangible products. Just saying.

For me, whilst it was great in the past to get a 12 inch slab of plastic to put on a chunky turntable with two sizeable speakers all at huge prices. And of course find room for them. My vinyl takes up a room in my house, along with the CDs. My computer has half a terabyte of music which I can put on a small device and listen to the lot anywhere; car, whilst walking. No contest. I don't need to pay tariffs.

Oh and I think not having plastic, and plastic sent from other countries in vans/trains/planes is surely better for the environment?

Yes, because downloading the tracks or using Spotify really benefits the band! I'll download the t-shirts as well while I'm at it?

As for the use of swear words: I'm just using the very same adjective Justin mostly uses to describe Brexit during gigs.

I think you're missing the point, but oh well. Brexit is hurting bands.

ldopas

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2021, 02:08:33 PM »
Yes, because downloading the tracks or using Spotify really benefits the band! I'll download the t-shirts as well while I'm at it?

As for the use of swear words: I'm just using the very same adjective Justin mostly uses to describe Brexit during gigs.

I think you're missing the point, but oh well. Brexit is hurting bands.

You do know you can actually buy downloads don't you? Strange you leap straight to suggesting illegality.

No, you cannot download a T-Shirt, but you were talking about vinyl which has alternative delivery channels. However I get my company T-Shirts from a company in Germany. I do not recollect paying one iota of a Tariff. I will check again?

What is hurting bands IS illegal downloading, however if some toe rag is determined to download something for free that someone has worked hard to create, this discussion is meaningless anyway. there we do agree.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 02:17:29 PM by ldopas »

Bever

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2021, 05:41:19 PM »
Yes, because downloading the tracks or using Spotify really benefits the band! I'll download the t-shirts as well while I'm at it?

As for the use of swear words: I'm just using the very same adjective Justin mostly uses to describe Brexit during gigs.

I think you're missing the point, but oh well. Brexit is hurting bands.

You do know you can actually buy downloads don't you? Strange you leap straight to suggesting illegality.

No, you cannot download a T-Shirt, but you were talking about vinyl which has alternative delivery channels. However I get my company T-Shirts from a company in Germany. I do not recollect paying one iota of a Tariff. I will check again?

What is hurting bands IS illegal downloading, however if some toe rag is determined to download something for free that someone has worked hard to create, this discussion is meaningless anyway. there we do agree.

I know I can buy downloads. I did it only once: the Winter album. It was available here before I could get the CD. I do not pay for downloads. I need the media as well. Music is an experience. Putting a CD in the tray. Even better: throwing vinyl on the turntable and putting the needle in place. It's the whole experience. And the better sound.

Just because you are satisfied with just a digital copy, means the rest of us is. The revival of vinyl is actually a blessing for the industry. Finally people are buying music again instead of streaming it in Spotify for which the bands get next to nothing. For British bands, Brexit is hurting that revival. I for one won't be ordering from UK web shops much in future. It's plain silly you have to pay more on customs than the price of the product you are buying.

cthulhu

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2021, 04:48:52 PM »
What a good place and moment to link again this song..enjoy :D
Spin the Black Circle

I haven't thought about the brexit and it's consequences that much, that i could give a opinion here. But i think for artists and every business that has to travel and sell and buy outside the borders of your country, it is just worse than before. And of course that is also the case for the other side.
Right now i have no idea how this would affect me ordering in the shop, but maybe this will bring me to the point that i have to decide if i'm able to pay much more than it would cost me otherwise without customs.

and i also do think that the one point that Idopas mentioned, about the plastic and the environment when comparing buying vinyl to digital streams, that this is the same misconception that people have when they think that e-cars are more environmental friendly than the combustion ones. it's like thinking that energy comes out of the socket. no, it has to be produced first. and when it comes to energy, you always have to put everything in the calculation. so electricity means batterys means plastic around  those batterys and cars and tyres still made out of oil. also as fertilizers for the monocultures are made of oil.

everything that has to do with digital storage and processing of data needs a lot of energy and resources. you have to cool processors and that also costs energy and maybe also a lot of fresh water.


« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 04:51:32 PM by cthulhu »
ever tried. ever failed. no matter.
try again. fail again. fail better.
(samuel beckett)

ldopas

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2021, 06:40:14 PM »
What a good place and moment to link again this song..enjoy :D
Spin the Black Circle

I haven't thought about the brexit and it's consequences that much, that i could give a opinion here. But i think for artists and every business that has to travel and sell and buy outside the borders of your country, it is just worse than before. And of course that is also the case for the other side.
Right now i have no idea how this would affect me ordering in the shop, but maybe this will bring me to the point that i have to decide if i'm able to pay much more than it would cost me otherwise without customs.

and i also do think that the one point that Idopas mentioned, about the plastic and the environment when comparing buying vinyl to digital streams, that this is the same misconception that people have when they think that e-cars are more environmental friendly than the combustion ones. it's like thinking that energy comes out of the socket. no, it has to be produced first. and when it comes to energy, you always have to put everything in the calculation. so electricity means batterys means plastic around  those batterys and cars and tyres still made out of oil. also as fertilizers for the monocultures are made of oil.

everything that has to do with digital storage and processing of data needs a lot of energy and resources. you have to cool processors and that also costs energy and maybe also a lot of fresh water.

I am connected to Construction as I have bored people with here for years, and my partner and I have a Green Business and have had one since 2001. I of course know that there is a cost in IT infrastructure for downloads etc. There is VERY LITTLE we do that does not impact the environment, in the end we have to balance the cost and risk. Batteries are evolving. Of course they require materials we currently see as environmentally harmful, but then so do combustion cars and they emit harm to the planet as well. Hydrogen is probably the way to go if we can produce enough usable hydrogen at a reasonable cost, which we are working on, waste product is water. Base line, the issue with environment boils down to the subject hardly anyone talks about...population control and reduction.

Anyway we are talking about Vinyl and Brexit. I understand the original posters points. And I also understand they like Vinyl. But life is about choice, and in this case having a go at Brexit because you don't want to look at alternatives is a choice. No problem. But if you choose the tangible Vinyl choice you may have to pay Tariffs, the internet downloading option removes boundaries (until Government tax them to fill their coffers).

So enjoy Vinyl, but there will be Tariffs. Tariffs we have to pay if you import any record from the US or Asia.

PS. I'm enjoying the debate by the way, but we probably need to stick to the topic or we will get our backsides smacked!  8)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 06:42:35 PM by ldopas »

fiddlesticks

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2021, 12:48:10 AM »
Well I guess I'm the one being sworn at by Bever, so sending my very best wishes his way. Taxes and customs duties are most definitely a pain. The fact that bands cannot play wherever they want in the world without a tonne of red tape is a pretty bad state of affairs.

Go back a couple hundred years and you'd be able to travel to most places in the world, maybe set up shop, buy and sell, without too much involvement from anyone in authority. The fact that the EU managed to create a club of nations within which that was possible was a good thing, but it came at a price. In returning to people certain rights that once fell to them naturally they also managed to create a situation where people could not dismiss those who ruled over them. We had unelected Commissioners who had often come to that role as a consolation prize after losing an election at home. A President "elected" from a ballot sheet of one (count them) candidate, and a Parliament so toothless that they could not even initiate legislation. The fact that there was one MEP for every 880,000 British voters, compared to one for every 70,900 Maltese was at best incidental given the value they added.

This is before we get to the referendums reheld when people voted the wrong way, Mario Monti being parachuted in to run Italy, or Lucas Papademos installed into Greece's highest office without so much as a "by your leave" from the people he was supposed to represent. (This was during the sovereign debt crisis - and who thought that a one size fits all economy was a good idea anyway?)

All so very remote, culturally and geographically, from much of the UK.

All that said,  there are no solutions, only trade-offs. It was something the Brexit debate did not articulate particularly well. Everything was reduced from nuance and carefully balanced argument to slogans and simplistic answers.

I fully recognise the difficulty Brexit has brought to many people, and it saddens me. To me, though, the solution is less, not more government. Sadly I can't see that happening any time soon. Power is too intoxicating for them to relinquish in a hurry. In many respects,  I can see that the EU is quite a benign organisation,  but its continual drive towards centralised control, regulation and standardisation has the potential to subsume all of the beautiful individual nation states of Europe into a single homogenous mass of joyless obedience. "Ever Closer Union", I believe they call it...

Finally, I have all the respect in the world for those who see the same facts and interpret them differently. It's one of the saddest things to see people tear each other apart because they disagree over a genuinely held point of view.

Tarsier

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2021, 01:05:07 AM »
Ah, Bever, I feel ya... If you scroll the page 99 from the top in ''What pisses you off..?'' -topic, there's the part I and part II of my first Brexit parcel tale.  ::)

Bever

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2021, 09:32:58 AM »
Well I guess I'm the one being sworn at by Bever, so sending my very best wishes his way. Taxes and customs duties are most definitely a pain. The fact that bands cannot play wherever they want in the world without a tonne of red tape is a pretty bad state of affairs.

Go back a couple hundred years and you'd be able to travel to most places in the world, maybe set up shop, buy and sell, without too much involvement from anyone in authority. The fact that the EU managed to create a club of nations within which that was possible was a good thing, but it came at a price. In returning to people certain rights that once fell to them naturally they also managed to create a situation where people could not dismiss those who ruled over them. We had unelected Commissioners who had often come to that role as a consolation prize after losing an election at home. A President "elected" from a ballot sheet of one (count them) candidate, and a Parliament so toothless that they could not even initiate legislation. The fact that there was one MEP for every 880,000 British voters, compared to one for every 70,900 Maltese was at best incidental given the value they added.

This is before we get to the referendums reheld when people voted the wrong way, Mario Monti being parachuted in to run Italy, or Lucas Papademos installed into Greece's highest office without so much as a "by your leave" from the people he was supposed to represent. (This was during the sovereign debt crisis - and who thought that a one size fits all economy was a good idea anyway?)

All so very remote, culturally and geographically, from much of the UK.

All that said,  there are no solutions, only trade-offs. It was something the Brexit debate did not articulate particularly well. Everything was reduced from nuance and carefully balanced argument to slogans and simplistic answers.

I fully recognise the difficulty Brexit has brought to many people, and it saddens me. To me, though, the solution is less, not more government. Sadly I can't see that happening any time soon. Power is too intoxicating for them to relinquish in a hurry. In many respects,  I can see that the EU is quite a benign organisation,  but its continual drive towards centralised control, regulation and standardisation has the potential to subsume all of the beautiful individual nation states of Europe into a single homogenous mass of joyless obedience. "Ever Closer Union", I believe they call it...

Finally, I have all the respect in the world for those who see the same facts and interpret them differently. It's one of the saddest things to see people tear each other apart because they disagree over a genuinely held point of view.

I'd say that introducing more customs regulations, is introducing more government, not less. It hurts an important sector, that is already hurting: artists.

More on that note: https://www.ata-carnet.uk/news/merchandising-after-brexit/

If you want to help your British music industry, and certainly the smaller bands, you might need to protect it... with more government regulations.


Tarsier

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2021, 05:26:58 AM »
Well... I have another parcel stuck in customs post. Ordered some Meshuggah -hoodies... Like, Swedish band on German label, merch shipped from the UK... >:(

Totally looking forward to my Global Gathering DVD... Fingers crossed...

I have to start to pay attention to what and where I order... Really can't afford the customs fees for fcuking everything

Bever

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2021, 07:32:08 PM »
Well... I have another parcel stuck in customs post. Ordered some Meshuggah -hoodies... Like, Swedish band on German label, merch shipped from the UK... >:(

Totally looking forward to my Global Gathering DVD... Fingers crossed...

I have to start to pay attention to what and where I order... Really can't afford the customs fees for fcuking everything

Correct, you wouldn't expect that to be shipped from the UK. We need to be more aware of this in the future. People can say what they want, stuff like this will hurt British economy. EU folks won't keep on paying customs for each parcel that comes from across the pond. So web shops can either relocate their logistics or see a decrease in orders.

Tarsier

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2021, 07:28:59 PM »
Well... I have another parcel stuck in customs post. Ordered some Meshuggah -hoodies... Like, Swedish band on German label, merch shipped from the UK... >:(

Totally looking forward to my Global Gathering DVD... Fingers crossed...

I have to start to pay attention to what and where I order... Really can't afford the customs fees for fcuking everything

Correct, you wouldn't expect that to be shipped from the UK. We need to be more aware of this in the future. People can say what they want, stuff like this will hurt British economy. EU folks won't keep on paying customs for each parcel that comes from across the pond. So web shops can either relocate their logistics or see a decrease in orders.

Amen... And holy f*ck this is expensive crap: I just checked the original order, I'd paid for postage and packaging 529 CZK (around 20 EUR)... When the post finally released my package from customs, this time I had to pay customs and handling fees 834 CZK!!! That's over thirty Euros!!! I'm talking about TWO HOODIES!!!  >:( >:( >:(

Bever

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Re: Merch and Brexit
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2021, 06:12:04 AM »
Well... I have another parcel stuck in customs post. Ordered some Meshuggah -hoodies... Like, Swedish band on German label, merch shipped from the UK... >:(

Totally looking forward to my Global Gathering DVD... Fingers crossed...

I have to start to pay attention to what and where I order... Really can't afford the customs fees for fcuking everything

Correct, you wouldn't expect that to be shipped from the UK. We need to be more aware of this in the future. People can say what they want, stuff like this will hurt British economy. EU folks won't keep on paying customs for each parcel that comes from across the pond. So web shops can either relocate their logistics or see a decrease in orders.

Amen... And holy f*ck this is expensive crap: I just checked the original order, I'd paid for postage and packaging 529 CZK (around 20 EUR)... When the post finally released my package from customs, this time I had to pay customs and handling fees 834 CZK!!! That's over thirty Euros!!! I'm talking about TWO HOODIES!!!  >:( >:( >:(

What I'm seeing is that webshops open up logistics in other European countries to serve the EU. I ordered the new Public Service Broadcasting record only because it was now possible to have it shipped from the Netherlands instead of the UK. My daughter ordered a dress from a UK shop, that will be shipped from the Netherlands now (they were opening up a new center there). So yes, companies are relocating a big part of their logistics to the EU, as was to be expected.