Author Topic: Jeremy Corbyn  (Read 2830 times)

Danny

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2015, 02:34:44 PM »
The truly revolting thing is the absurd electoral system of this country, which ensures none of the alternatives to the tories and Labour, whether left or right of either, have even the slightest chance of making it into parliament (other than possibly for the token one or two MPs, and that very rarely too), never mind getting in. Hence the need for a truly leftwing Labour Party - at least until this toxic, obsolete system is replaced by one that better reflects the actual choices of voters (like most other European countries have)

Pumpkin

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2015, 02:51:33 PM »
It's an interesting point, but the reality is that the Conservatives and Labour would still dominate, they always will, largely because of some of the points brought up by ldopas.

I don't suspect you would agree with proportional voting in the last election, given the fact that UKIP would actually be the third largest party - about the same size in Parliament as the LibDems and SNP combined.

Wasn't electoral reform (alternative voting) rejected in a referendum back in 2011?


Pol

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2015, 04:47:20 PM »
Yes there maybe some choices out, is the edl a political party not sure the Scottish dl is a tiny group so I don't know much about them. The greens have some excellent ideas but are really a pressure group for the environment, ukip same for Europe, swp might gain a few votes on here but probably will never win a seat.
Danny makes a good point that the election system is biased in favour of two main parties, and yes they would probably win most seats at least others would have a fair say, I would argue that it would need to be regionalized.
It's worth remembering that the Tories only got 0.8 % more of the vote last time and look what happened.
Foolishly imo the people rejected the chance for change
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ldopas

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2015, 07:11:53 PM »
The truly revolting thing is the absurd electoral system of this country, which ensures none of the alternatives to the tories and Labour, whether left or right of either, have even the slightest chance of making it into parliament (other than possibly for the token one or two MPs, and that very rarely too), never mind getting in. Hence the need for a truly leftwing Labour Party - at least until this toxic, obsolete system is replaced by one that better reflects the actual choices of voters (like most other European countries have)

Well I don't completely disagree. Though where PR is in action, it generally makes for weak government.

But in the end the country were given the option and just under 70% said no in 2011. That is the democratic equivalent of a massacre and certainly doomed Clegg in the longer term.

So, and I don't mean to sound rude, but 3/4 of the population do not agree with you I'm afraid!  :)

Master Ray

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2015, 07:55:11 PM »
It's interesting that today the Government voted overwhelmingly in favour of the cutting of tax credits (this further impoverishing hundreds of thousands of UK folks) and all the media can still whine about is Corbyn refusing to sing some out-dated song...

Gotta agree with previous posts about his choice of Cabinet, though.   :-\
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Danny

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2015, 11:16:43 PM »
70% of a 42% turnout means less then 30% of the electorate voted no... and in any case that referendum was a piss-take right from the start, the proposed system didn't make any sense even for most supporters of PR and was the first of countless times in the last 5 years the lib-dem were shown how much they counted in the so-called coalition, ie zilch.

By the way, it's also never been more than the same 24/25% of (potential) voters who vote for the tories, the other 3 quarters of the nation quite rightly hate the bastards... but a lot of them don't bother to vote because with the combination of the current system and Labour having just being tory-lite for far too long they don't feel represented. If Corbyn stays true to what he says this might well change for those on the left, and if we ever were to ditch the idiotic system we currently have and switch to REAL PR (party list, or at the very least STV) a lot more people, both left and right, would vote - just like generally speaking happens in countries that have that system, because whether 'your' party wins or not, you feel you are represented in parliament by those you have chosen.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 10:32:52 AM by Danny »

Pumpkin

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2015, 09:57:22 AM »
What are some of the real reasons there was a turnout of only 42%? And out of that turnout what are some of the possible reasons only 32% voted yes?

Whatever way you cut it, there wasn’t exactly a great appetite for the idea of replacing the current system with the alternative vote. That much is clearly obvious. The decision was made loud and clear not to change the current system; the percentage of voter turnout is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. If there had been a great interest to effect political change, then the issue wouldn’t have faded into the background. Who the feck’s jumping up and down about it now? The LibDems? Labour?

The only places with higher than 50% ‘Yes” in that referendum were six in London, then parts of Cambridge, Oxford, Edinburgh and Glasgow. What does that tell you? (Ironically, the SNP has done quite well out of the current system, so perhaps Edinburgh and Glasgow made a ‘mistake’ wanting change. As it is now with much less support than UKIP, the SNP punch well above their weight.)

All of this brings me to one of the main reasons why electoral reform even made it to a referendum: in 2005 Labour won the election with the lowest ever share of the national vote for a single-party majority government in history. That dubious distinction belongs well and truly to Labour, even ‘New’ Labour at that.  That’s a significant point and explains why the 2011 Referendum gained momentum. Of course, it was actually Labour, back in 1997, that proposed changes to the current system. 

Nothing takes away from the fact that the Conservatives and Labour will still dominate any other political, electoral system on a nation-wide basis until there is a real credible alternative. The Conservatives would have done even better in some previous elections under PR. If the point is that PR would destabilise the strength of the two main parties, then the jury’s clearly out on that one. Voter apathy is a significant problem throughout Western democracies. 

Rather than trying to blame the current system for political failure, why not put the blame where it really belongs: on the apathy of the voters who don’t strive to make change a reality.

It’s easy to play the blame game, but real change comes from being active and doing something about it. The SNP turned a minority, outside-the-mainstream political philosophy into a powerhouse at the expense of Labour, simply because they stopped moaning about a Conservative/Labour dominated political landscape.

The point is: it can be done.

So, we have the SNP becoming a substantial political force at the expense of Labour and they now have significant political representation in London, as a consequence of the current political and electoral system. Obviously, Alex Salmond prefers real politics to armchair politics.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 10:01:33 AM by Pumpkin »

Danny

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2015, 10:28:50 AM »
Like I said, it's great to see rightwing shits working their selves into a fit over things at the moment (the press reaction over the last few days has been truly entertaining) - under this aspect Corbyn has already won, cos it means they fear him. It's not much for now, in fact it's very little, but it's a start and it feels ******* great  :D

Pumpkin

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2015, 11:28:05 AM »
You're easily satisfied for someone with such expectations.

The only people who 'fear' Corbyn are the moderate-right within Labour who look set to be on the margins and nothing more. There are also too many people in Labour unwilling to work with Corbyn/McDonnell, and that has to be a worry as far as party unity is concerned. The moderates, both left and right within the party, may well be right in their assumption that the next election is already lost - only time will tell, but probably well beforehand.

Any real victory comes only at the election and only under the current electoral system. That's the ultimate measurement here. Real politics.  :)

If Corbyn himself doesn't start winning soon, then it's all for nothing and Labour won't want to risk it when the chips are down. The SNP themselves have already made that clear; Labour knows it has no time to waste. There were plenty of Labour members who doubted Blair, but it all went rather silent when the victories mounted. In fact, wasn't Corbyn one of them?

As far as The Conservatives and UKIP are concerned, they're breathing a sigh of relief that neither Yvette Cooper nor Liz Kendall won the leadership contest. As far as Cameron and Co. are concerned, Corbyn's victory makes their job of re-election that much easier. History would seem to prove it, too.

Then there are the LibDems...where they now fit in, no one knows...

« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 11:43:07 AM by Pumpkin »

Pol

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2015, 01:17:36 PM »
Some excellent and very interesting recent posts , I won't try and cover all the points they covered.

PR probably didn't happen because the idea seemed to have came from nick Clegg and the lib Dems and it seemed really complicated as well. The Scottish Parliament is voted by PR and it works well enough, we have only had one coalition government of far , there is the main candidates that you vote for and the rest of the msp's are made by list candidates. I personally think its a excellent idea, if you live in a area where the party you support doesn't have a chance of winning well what is the point of voting.
Back to Corbyn 1: Get rid of McDonnell asap. 2: Thought his speech/questions at PMs  question time was a breath of fresh air 3: I think he has some good ideas but they to be refined by a younger smarter mp for todays image hungry voter
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Danny

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2015, 01:58:44 PM »
if you live in a area where the party you support doesn't have a chance of winning well what is the point of voting.

Nailed it mate. I live in a very safe Labour constituency (at the last local election in my ward the fuqking tories ended up 4th out of the 5 parties fielding candidates, beaten by Labour, Greens and even the Lib-Dems - in this order- and only managing more votes than UKIP; I've even had the luxury to be able to NOT vote Labour out of principle in the past, safe in the knowledge there was no way the tories would get in) and I'm even reasonably satisfied with my MP, but if I didn't like it in the current system there would be absolutely ****-all I could do to change this. If I lived in a safe tory seat (god forbid!) the way things currently are I probably wouldn't bother voting
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 02:06:44 PM by Danny »

ldopas

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2015, 02:19:29 PM »
70% of a 42% turnout means less then 30% of the electorate voted no... and in any case that referendum was a piss-take right from the start, the proposed system didn't make any sense even for most supporters of PR and was the first of countless times in the last 5 years the lib-dem were shown how much they counted in the so-called coalition, ie zilch.

By the way, it's also never been more than the same 24/25% of (potential) voters who vote for the tories, the other 3 quarters of the nation quite rightly hate the bastards... but a lot of them don't bother to vote because with the combination of the current system and Labour having just being tory-lite for far too long they don't feel represented. If Corbyn stays true to what he says this might well change for those on the left, and if we ever were to ditch the idiotic system we currently have and switch to REAL PR (party list, or at the very least STV) a lot more people, both left and right, would vote - just like generally speaking happens in countries that have that system, because whether 'your' party wins or not, you feel you are represented in parliament by those you have chosen.

Well you and I don't know if the "other 3 quarters of the nation quite rightly hate the bastards", as you have not taken any poll or survey on it, that is your politics right there. It could be that others vote for other parties because, well, they erm believe in their policies.  :)

The argument that because a 42% turnout voted overwhelmingly for something, means that the rest would have been against is flawed massively for two reasons. Firstly, you and I have no idea whether the rest would have voted for or against anyway, so it is not relevent. Secondly, we cannot render a vote invalid if the mass don't turn out, as that is their fault. Unless you want to get them out by law or the point of a gun, then that is their right.

A mix of "cant be arsed", "didn't have time" and "I don't know anything about politics" make up a large part of that so any decision as far as I'm concerned is what they deserve. The AV vote for example was ONE damn issue and many couldn't even be bothered.

As for whether more people would vote with PR I have my doubts. I go around these islands a lot and I get this feeling that people just take it all for granted and cannot be bothered, not that there is a mass of disaffection. That is the impression reading the Guardian, but only 200,000 read the Guardian!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 03:35:43 PM by ldopas »

ldopas

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2015, 02:24:12 PM »
if you live in a area where the party you support doesn't have a chance of winning well what is the point of voting.

Actually I cpmpletely disagree with Danny and you, sorry!  :)

Think about that line, and perhaps ask yourself WHY the party you support doesn't have a chance. Then perhaps the conclusion you might come to is that if you and others VOTED they may then have a chance. It is an illogical conclusion surely?

Also if you say the other party has most votes in an area anyway, that is democracy, sorry! Two choices lie ahead for you then; either change the voting system (I think we have covered that), or move?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 02:28:53 PM by ldopas »

Pumpkin

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2015, 02:30:55 PM »
Nailed it mate. I live in a very safe Labour constituency (at the last local election in my ward the fuqking tories ended up 4th out of the 5 parties fielding candidates, beaten by Labour, Greens and even the Lib-Dems - in this order- and only managing more votes than UKIP; I've even had the luxury to be able to NOT vote Labour out of principle in the past, safe in the knowledge there was no way the tories would get in) and I'm even reasonably satisfied with my MP, but if I didn't like it in the current system there would be absolutely ****-all I could do to change this. If I lived in a safe tory seat (god forbid!) the way things currently are I probably wouldn't bother voting

If I lived in a constituency which was deemed "safe" for any political party with which I didn't agree, the last thing I'd do is spoil my vote, blame the system and keep giving off about it.

JohnnyM

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2015, 05:32:04 PM »
PR probably didn't happen because the idea seemed to have came from nick Clegg and the lib Dems and it seemed really complicated as well.

My understanding was that Cameron deliberately went for the option he knew was rubbish and would have no hope of getting any votes. To this day i don't know why the libdems went into "coalition" (there didn't seem to be much partnership) - rather than letting the Tories form a minority government and have them over a barrel so that they could genuinely ensure real change.

As for Corbyn - he's being presented as some rabbid commie - when in actual fact he was quite middle of the road for an 80s Labour MP - shows who much things have swing to the right. It interesting to see *everyone* in the Establishment gang up on him (you expect it from the Mail but the BBC have been disgraceful)

Though labour only really have themselves to blame for their current predicament. The loss of most traditional working class MP (who had come up through the Trade Unions) has left their oxbridge>lobbyis/researcher> safe seat candidates so far removed from their traditional supporters lives as to be irrelevant. Blair was no fool (well not till later), and had Prescott to appeal to the trad voters, Brown for Scotland an shim for middle England...

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out - my money (sadly) is on Tristam Hunt or Chukka as leader going into the 2020 election