Author Topic: EU Referendum  (Read 18203 times)

Stephanie

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #315 on: July 06, 2016, 01:21:36 PM »
A friend of mine was in Germany last week and the overwhelming response he got from German folks he met was they wished they were allowed a referendum and, if it happened, it would be a massive LEAVE vote... I'd love to hear from any German folks on this Forum or, indeed, anyone from any EU country...
Hmmm, I don't think that would happen necessarily, especially not after people have seen how the Brexit ended. Of course we, too, have those right wing activists who were overjoyed with the result - but then that is in their job description, right?  ::)
But their voices are the ones that the media tend to speak about. No, before the referendum, Germans overwhelmingly stated how much they wanted the UK to stay in and everyone here was really shocked and saddened by the result.

The problem is indeed what the Belgian guy you quoted has said: people have no issues with the EU as such - just with the way it currently is. And the guys in charge - in all countries - either don't get it or they don't care enough.

I read a very interesting article yesterday, unfortunately it is in German and several pages long - but it all came down to this: the working class, which politicians seem to think does not really exist anymore, does still exist - and they feel they have no-one out there to represent them, to speak for them. So they turn to parties they wouldn't normally vote for, simply because they feel that, by doing this, they will get heard.And the parties in question are abusing this, just as the Brexit is being abused, for their right-wing ideology.

Which is scary, very scary.

But no, at this very moment I doubt that Germans would vote "Leave", it's not what I gather from the people around me.

Next year's elections should be...interesting... :-\

Master Ray

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #316 on: July 06, 2016, 07:22:48 PM »
Couple of excellent posts from Stephanie and Johnz and I bow down to superior wisdom from people who know Germany bettr than I do...



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Anna Woman von NRW

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #317 on: July 06, 2016, 09:11:06 PM »
I read a very interesting article yesterday, unfortunately it is in German and several pages long - but it all came down to this: the working class, which politicians seem to think does not really exist anymore, does still exist - and they feel they have no-one out there to represent them, to speak for them. So they turn to parties they wouldn't normally vote for, simply because they feel that, by doing this, they will get heard.And the parties in question are abusing this, just as the Brexit is being abused, for their right-wing ideology.

Which is scary, very scary.

An excellent well made point.
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Pumpkin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #318 on: July 12, 2016, 06:36:14 PM »
So, Theresa May it is to negotiate Brexit...let's see what she can do, or is she just the latest Tory to be thrown under the bus by the circle of shitehawks.

Let's see if she brings Disraeli's brainchild to the negotiating table...






ldopas

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #319 on: July 13, 2016, 06:15:31 AM »
So, Theresa May it is to negotiate Brexit...let's see what she can do, or is she just the latest Tory to be thrown under the bus by the circle of shitehawks.

Let's see if she brings Disraeli's brainchild to the negotiating table...

Very true, I don't hold out much hope on any brilliant solution as the "let's have another referendum because we don't like the result of the referendum" undemocratic lot get into gear. My view is we will do Brexit-lite, a fudge like all political moves these days. The long grass is a-calling!  :)

Meanwhile on the other side Armageddon by the "new kinder progressive" politics, a leader clinging on, challengers as anodyn as the Tory contenders, bricks thrown through windows, death threats, attempts to bully people into voting a certain way.

It's fascinating and appalling all at the same time. Perhaps now is the time for a party that can properly balance the fact we are a power economy and make it even more powerful and attractive to business allied to proper social policies to combat inequality. And to me, that is neither of the two main parties, or indeed any of the others. It used to be the Liberals until they lurched into the kitchen sink club.

Johnz

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #320 on: July 14, 2016, 11:37:10 AM »
So Boris Johnson is the new foreign secretary now.

Should I laugh or cry?

Pol

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #321 on: July 14, 2016, 12:03:19 PM »
Thought Boris getting the job was very strange, wondering if Jeremy Clarkson will be his assistant lol
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Master Ray

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #322 on: July 14, 2016, 06:56:16 PM »
Agreed... Boris as foreign secretary?  That's the worst possible job you could give a thoughtless fool like him!  I appreciate he stepped down from the leadership race with the promise of a well-paid job, but surely something like 'Minister In Charge Of, I Dunno, Something Irrelevent Like Newts' would be more applicable?
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Bunny

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #323 on: July 14, 2016, 10:12:02 PM »
A German newspaper put a nice spin on it. " You got us in this mess, you can take the flack for it"  :)
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Simon73

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #324 on: July 22, 2016, 12:25:26 PM »
I can criticise EU also myself for many reasons. Just I hate the way that right wing above all used the argument, populism etc. that is fucked up.

Pumpkin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #325 on: July 24, 2016, 01:59:12 PM »
I see the EU is increasingly coming to the stark realisation that the British economy's importance to Europe cannot be denied or minimised out of spite.

There are now planned discussions to allow the UK an exemption from the freedom of movement, something which Merkel and Hollande refused to consider only a few weeks ago. We were told the freedom of movement was one of the basic principles which we must accept outright. Seemingly, it can now be adjusted...

In doing so, immigration concerns with greater controls are addressed, but participation in the single market with full trade access is unaffected.

Clearly, losing the UK from the further integration project and the single market is too much - the economic cost too great. No doubt the last thing German businesses want are tariffs and quantitative quotas when trying to export to one of their largest and most profitable markets. It's hardly a surprise, is it?   

Pol

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #326 on: July 24, 2016, 05:28:21 PM »
Money talks
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Johnz

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #327 on: July 26, 2016, 03:44:43 PM »
I see the EU is increasingly coming to the stark realisation that the British economy's importance to Europe cannot be denied or minimised out of spite.

There are now planned discussions to allow the UK an exemption from the freedom of movement, something which Merkel and Hollande refused to consider only a few weeks ago. We were told the freedom of movement was one of the basic principles which we must accept outright. Seemingly, it can now be adjusted...

In doing so, immigration concerns with greater controls are addressed, but participation in the single market with full trade access is unaffected.

Clearly, losing the UK from the further integration project and the single market is too much - the economic cost too great. No doubt the last thing German businesses want are tariffs and quantitative quotas when trying to export to one of their largest and most profitable markets. It's hardly a surprise, is it?   

I do think you are a bit blinded by your contempt for the EU. It is very much a two way street. Remember that the EU never wanted to lose Britain. The pound is currently at a 31 year low and things really aren't looking too great for the UK's economy.

The reality is that neither side will come out better off. So it is now up to the both parties to find a way that lets the UK effectively stay in the EU while giving the Leavers the illusion of independence.

While you consider Brexit a victory of some sort, I think it's becoming increasingly more obvious that the whole thing is a farce.

With all the other goings on in Europe at the moment I really think that we need this instability like a hole in the head.



Pumpkin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #328 on: July 26, 2016, 09:08:51 PM »
What is interesting to note is that the EU itself has moved so far away from the initial post-Brexit position of 'Article 50 must be initiated ASAP' (even Juncker isn't demanding this now) and 'there can be no single market without freedom of movement'. You don't even need to read between the lines to see that the EU is going to bend the rules, because it does realise what a loss Brexit represents. Think about it: the second largest economy and the greatest military power in the EU rejects greater political, economic and military integration.

Having a weak currency is not necessarily a bad thing - see how China regularly manipulates its own exchange rate to favour itself and become a powerhouse in the process. Northern Ireland is a prime example of how a devalued pound can be of great benefit - for the majority of the last decade it has exploited an overvalued Euro in the Republic of Ireland. Turkey did likewise throughout the 00s and 10s at the expense of Greece. Of course, this is a tried and tested example of monetary policy which can stimulate economic growth, but anyone who is in the Eurozone cannot do this, because the ECB holds the cards. Poland escaped many of the worst aspects of recession, simply because it could devalue the zloty. Look at how Slovakia and Slovenia still pay a heavy price for being tied to the Euro. I clearly see how this also devastates the group of PIIGS, all of which would be better off without it. We might well see Italy and Greece leaving it soon.

The whole thing is a farce, providing that action isn't taken to move forward. Negotiations to leave must begin sooner rather than later. The real reason we are here is because the European project in its current form of political and monetary union doesn't work. 28 member states with different histories, cultures, perspectives and so forth cannot be moulded into one superstate. Just think for one minute how this couldn't work in any other continent - even South America where this is a more dominant language, culture and history. It doesn't even work with something like NAFTA, and Canadians and Americans are much more similar than Europeans are.

As for Europe's many current problems, they have long roots and the outright refusal to consider alternatives in banking policies, fisheries policies, the role of the state, immigration and economic policies (fiscal/monetary), with regard to differences in each member state's needs and abilities, has been nothing short of tragic really. One size does not fit all. Even when it tried to woo Iceland after 2008 it failed, largely because the cost of membership was much greater than the benefits.

I like Europe and its diversity, but such concerted attempts to create a superstate, ignorant of the wider complexities, is doomed to failure.

Anna Woman von NRW

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #329 on: June 23, 2017, 07:58:36 PM »
Looking really good isn't it ..................................
Waving at the devil that I know and the devil that I don't