Author Topic: Why America  (Read 6282 times)

Whirlwind

  • Totally Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Why America
« on: October 29, 2019, 06:51:02 PM »
There's a "Why England" thread going, why not a "Why America?" thread?
Your loves and not-loves of America, if you please.

LOVES:

- the vastness. It is HUGE and with that comes an astonishing variety of climate and topography. Searing heat desert to frozen tundra to rainy jungle to lovely beaches to massive mountains to flat endless plains...I could go on, but America has it all.

- the people. Like the topography and the climate, America comes with an astonishing variety of people. New Yorkers sure ain't like Californians. Southern hicks aren't like big city Chicagoans. And of course we have the diversity of the entire world in our population. Italians, Germans, French, Arab, Jew, Japanese, Scotsman, Chinese, Indian, native American Indian, Slavs, Irish, Poles, Scandinavians, hell that was all just in my high school class. I've said this before: In Japan you can construct a statue of a Japanese person; in Ethiopia a statue of an Ethiopian; in China, Korea, Norway, Senegal, Mexico....same thing. But in America you can not build a statue of the quintessential American. Would it be black, white, Asian...? Americans are EVERYBODY. That's why we are the greatest.

- our culture. Let's be real, you have a culture because of America. Your music, your movies, your TV, your books, your very language (I bet you have said "fuhgettaboutit"), your attire, your food (bet you had McDonalds some time this year), your very way of life is all because of America. Sure we have some shit in our culture (Bon Jovi), but 99% of our culture is magnificent and you use it as your culture. You have no culture except for ours. (Hell, the members of New Model Army would be making clogs in a factory if it weren't for Elvis Presley.)

- the sports. Our sports truly are the best and every four years at the Olympics we show the world that Americans are the greatest sportsmen, sportswomen, and sportsLGBTQ on planet Earth. You foreigners should just hold the Olympics without us. That way you might have a chance at winning a medal.


NON-LOVES

- the stupidity. Our lower schools sure ain't putting out the best product. No bullshit, we actually have people here who think the Earth is flat; we actually have people here who voted for Trump; we actually have people here who like Bon Jovi music. To get into a high brow conversation with someone here simply does not happen.

America - what say you about her?



Isaac(Black Eagle Rising)

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
Re: Why America
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2019, 09:47:50 PM »
NON-LOVES:Edit:I typed a long entry here but I deleted it.I dont want to get involved in that really.
LOVES:Big Lebowski (What a film)  Social Distortion (What a band)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 11:02:17 PM by Isaac(Black Eagle Rising) »

Digital Man

  • Guest
Re: Why America
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2019, 10:07:41 PM »
holy shit, you drank some pretty damn good kool aid
where did you get it? i want some!

cthulhu

  • Totally Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • i'm trying to quit, but i just quit trying
Re: Why America
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2019, 11:18:18 PM »
GWAR - America Must Be Destroyed

so...ok...before commenting on my comment...listen to the lyrics first!
and maybe for the faint of heart: i post this as an expression of art. so i don't mean and wish that anything should be destroyed for real. but i don't believe in frontiers, flags, nations build on by conquering natives already there (celebrate columbus day? "how can you call a takeover a discovery?" public enemy)
but to be clear: it's not the people, it's the concepts. and well yes, the concept of america should be destroyed. but it's destroying itself anyway.

maybe later i find something good about that concept, there are good things, but your post Whirlwind, as always, doesn't lack the amount of chuzpe, which makes it hard to take it seriously.
ever tried. ever failed. no matter.
try again. fail again. fail better.
(samuel beckett)

Whirlwind

  • Totally Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Why America
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2019, 11:38:13 PM »
columbus day? "how can you call a takeover a discovery?" public enemy)

Uhh, you really want to quote Public Enemy as an authority on things? Public Enemy also said this about Elvis:

Elvis was a hero to most
But he never meant shit to me
Straight up racist that sucker was


That is plainly false and really libelous. You can say a thousand things about Elvis (druggie, mama's boy, lover of peanut butter and banana sandwiches, paedophile...), but no one (except Public Enemy) ever said Elvis was a racist. Why? Because it simply is not true. Elvis was extremely comfortable and at home with all peoples. Elvis a racist? That's a slanderous lie on behalf of Public Enemy. So if they got Elvis wrong, they sure as sh!t got their facts about Columbus wrong.

Whirlwind

  • Totally Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Why America
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2019, 11:39:18 PM »
holy shit, you drank some pretty damn good kool aid
where did you get it?

FOX News

cthulhu

  • Totally Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • i'm trying to quit, but i just quit trying
Re: Why America
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2019, 11:52:52 PM »
Quote
So if they got Elvis wrong, they sure as sh!t got their facts about Columbus wrong.

Ok, so let me correct that, because the thought in that quote i find quite fitting, and, as always, you open up another path to answer and leave the point of that post behind.

So, again, a question:
Do you celebrate columbus day?
If so, have you ever wondered how cou can call a takeover a discovery? (cthulhu)
ever tried. ever failed. no matter.
try again. fail again. fail better.
(samuel beckett)

Whirlwind

  • Totally Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Why America
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2019, 12:12:28 AM »
Do you celebrate columbus day?
If so, have you ever wondered how cou can call a takeover a discovery? (cthulhu)

Of course we celebrate Columbus Day - it's a day off.

Christoforo Columbo is a grievously maligned historical figure. 90% of the bad that is said about Columbus is (like Elvis being called a racist) untrue. (Let's not get into that, I know it is a discussion that will go nowhere. I will be correct while you will maintain your incorrect thoughts of Columbus.)

How about the fact that Columbus was one of mankind's greatest, bravest, boldest adventurers. That is what should be remembered and honored and celebrated. If one day the moon becomes a place of genocide and war and pestilence, do you blame Neil Armstrong? Do you malign his astounding achievement?

Columbus was a man unlike all others of his time. Not a flat-Earther, he actually had the right stuff to venture out into that unknown and find another world. The destruction and terror that the colonists and native peoples did to that world is absurd to hang on Columbus.

cthulhu

  • Totally Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • i'm trying to quit, but i just quit trying
Re: Why America
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2019, 07:46:35 AM »
Before i quote some Wikipedia about that matter, let me ask you one question Whirlfind. Are you a politician? I'm really curious, because you manage so passionately to say much without answering the point of the question and instead leading clever away from it, hide behind the filibuster-technique of blah, blah, blah...but still you're entertaining enough to keep people listening.

About Columbus:

Since the late 20th century, historians have criticized Columbus for initiating colonization and for abuse of natives.
Among reasons for this criticism is the poor treatment of the native Taíno people of Hispaniola, whose population declined rapidly after contact with the Spanish. Columbus required the natives to pay tribute in gold and cotton.[134] Modern estimates for the pre-Columbian population of Hispaniola are around 250,000–300,000.[citation needed] According to the historian Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo y Valdes, by 1548, 56 years after Columbus landed, and 42 years after he died, fewer than 500 Taíno were living on the island.[135]

The indigenous population declined rapidly, due primarily to the first pandemic of European endemic diseases, which struck Hispaniola after 1519. The natives had no acquired immunity to these new diseases and suffered high fatalities. There is also documentation that they were overworked.[136][137][138] Historian Andrés Reséndez of University of California, Davis, pushes back against this narrative, and says the available evidence suggests "slavery has emerged as major killer" of the indigenous populations of the Caribbean between 1492 and 1550 more so than diseases such as smallpox, influenza and malaria.[139] He says that indigenous populations did not experience a rebound like European populations did following the Black Death because unlike the latter, the former were subjected to deadly forced labor in gold and silver mines on a massive scale.[140]

Slavery and serfdom

The natives of the island were systematically subjugated via the encomienda system implemented by Columbus.[141] Adapted to the New World from Spain, it resembled the feudal system in Medieval Europe, as it was based on a lord offering "protection" to a class of people who owed labor.[142] In addition, Spanish colonists under his rule began to buy and sell natives as slaves, including children.[143]

When natives on Hispaniola began fighting back against their oppressors in 1495, Columbus's men captured 1,500 Arawak men, women, and children in a single raid. The strongest were transported to Spain to be sold as slaves;[144] 40 percent of the 500 shipped died en route.[53] Historian James W. Loewen asserts that "Columbus not only sent the first slaves across the Atlantic, he probably sent more slaves—about five thousand—than any other individual."[145]

According to Spanish colonist and Dominican friar Bartolomé de las Casas's contemporary A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies, when slaves held in captivity began to die at high rates, Columbus ordered all natives over the age of thirteen to pay a hawk's bell full of gold powder every three months. Natives who brought this amount to the Spanish were given a copper token to hang around their necks. The Spanish cut off the hands of those without tokens, and left them to bleed to death.[53][146] Thousands of natives committed suicide by poison to escape their persecution.[144]

Columbus' s forced labor system was also described by his son, Ferdinand: "In the Cibao, where the gold mines were, every person of fourteen years of age or upward was to pay a large hawk's bell of gold dust; all others were each to pay twenty-five pounds of cotton. Whenever an Indian delivered his tribute, he was to receive a brass or copper token which he must wear about his neck as proof that he had made his payment; any Indian found without such a token was to be punished." [147]

Violence towards Natives and Spanish colonists

During his brief reign, Columbus executed Spanish colonists for minor crimes, and used dismemberment as another form of punishment.[148]

Columbus's soldiers killed and enslaved with impunity at every landing. When Columbus fell ill in 1495, "what little restraint he had maintained over his men disappeared as he went through a lengthy period of recuperation. The troops went wild, stealing, killing, raping, and torturing natives, trying to force them to divulge the whereabouts of the imagined treasure-houses of gold."[149] According to Las Casas, 50,000 natives perished during this period. Upon his recovery, Columbus organized his troops' efforts, forming a squadron of several hundred heavily armed men and more than twenty attack dogs. Dogs were used to hunt down natives who attempted to flee.[144] Columbus's men tore across the land, killing thousands of sick and unarmed natives. Soldiers would use their captives for sword practice, attempting to decapitate them or cut them in half with a single blow.[150]

The Arawaks attempted to fight back against Columbus's men but lacked their armor, guns, swords, and horses. When taken prisoner, they were hanged or burned to death. Desperation led to mass suicides and infanticide among the natives. In just two years under Columbus's governorship, over 125,000 of the 250,000–300,000 natives in Haiti were dead,[53] many died from lethal forced labor in the mines, in which a third of workers died every six months.[151] Within three decades, the surviving Arawak population numbered only in the hundreds.[151] "Virtually every member of the gentle race ... had been wiped out."[144] Disease, warfare and harsh enslavement contributed to the depopulation.[152][153][154]

Within indigenous circles, Columbus is often viewed as a key agent of genocide.[155] Samuel Eliot Morison, a Harvard historian and author of a multivolume biography on Columbus writes, "The cruel policy initiated by Columbus and pursued by his successors resulted in complete genocide."[156] Loewen laments that while "Haiti under the Spanish is one of the primary instances of genocide in all human history", only one major history text he reviewed mentions Columbus's role in it.[157]

By the end of 1494, disease and famine had claimed two-thirds of the Spanish settlers.[137][165] A native Nahuatl account depicted the social breakdown that accompanied the pandemics: "A great many died from this plague, and many others died of hunger. They could not get up to search for food, and everyone else was too sick to care for them, so they starved to death in their beds."[166] When the pandemic finally struck in 1519 it wiped out much of the remaining native population.[167][168] Charles C. Mann wrote "It was as if the suffering these diseases had caused in Eurasia over the past millennia were concentrated into the span of decades."[169]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus#Criticism_and_defense_in_modern_scholarship


So you can enjoy your Columbus Day, celebrate it, but in my opinion Public Enemy have stated some good points about that history.

Why America? At the moment i find one thing very cool about America, and that is that 11 states have legalized cannabis!
That's a forward move, and better just seen without the historic facts, that the war on drugs and the restrictive politics about harmless drugs were implemented at first by America.

United States of Whatever
ever tried. ever failed. no matter.
try again. fail again. fail better.
(samuel beckett)

Isaac(Black Eagle Rising)

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
Re: Why America
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2019, 12:07:09 PM »
That legalisation of canabis is one of the few things I appreciate about america. 8)

Whirlwind

  • Totally Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Why America
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2019, 01:48:18 PM »
That legalisation of canabis is one of the few things I appreciate about america. 8)
I'm angrily against it.

I believe we gave up on Prohibition too soon. Prohibition - no alcohol - should be the way of the land. Weed? Uhh, if I feel our alcohol should be banned, then weed should be too.

I am also against legalized gambling,  which is something many of our states are now allowing.

I'm no ascetic (look that one up, kids). I just feel a government should not foster (and by legislation condone) vices. Weed. alcohol, gambling are vices, not virtues. A government has no right to step in and welcome them into society.

Whirlwind

  • Totally Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Why America
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2019, 01:53:26 PM »

About Columbus:

Since the late 20th century, …...

Uhh, you do realize that I can copy and paste a lengthy article about the inhuman atrocities that the indigenous people of the Americas did to each other long before Columbus arrived. What they were doing to each other - slaughter, rape, enslavement, beheadings and mutilations, genocide - make Columbus and his men look like The Peace Corps.

If you don't want to read, I suggest you watch the Mel Gibson film APACOLYPTO.

Bunny

  • Totally Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 2525
  • Born to mild
Re: Why America
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2019, 07:48:42 PM »
Every nation has a history of killing.....except maybe San Marino. There is nothing wrong with American, Afghanis, Eskimos/ Inuits or whoever. Every country has its own culture to learn from. Politicians spoil the world, not people.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 07:55:28 PM by Bunny »
Hala (from the Anglo-Saxon word "halh", meaning nook or remote valley), until it was gifted by King Henry II to Welsh Prince David Owen and became known as Halas Owen

Whirlwind

  • Totally Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Why America
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2019, 08:22:45 PM »
Politicians spoil the world, not people.

Yeah, but people are responsible for putting those politicians in office. Margaret Thatcher, Boris Johnson, Donald J. Trump, Hitler....

Isaac(Black Eagle Rising)

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
Re: Why America
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2019, 08:56:49 PM »
That legalisation of canabis is one of the few things I appreciate about america. 8)
I'm angrily against it.

I believe we gave up on Prohibition too soon. Prohibition - no alcohol - should be the way of the land. Weed? Uhh, if I feel our alcohol should be banned, then weed should be too.

I am also against legalized gambling,  which is something many of our states are now allowing.

I'm no ascetic (look that one up, kids). I just feel a government should not foster (and by legislation condone) vices. Weed. alcohol, gambling are vices, not virtues. A government has no right to step in and welcome them into society.
History of weed,alcohol and gambling is as old as history of humanity.You cant keep these out of people's reach.People will find a way to get the poison somehow.In this way at least everyone get what they want from trustable resources.These are not vices.These are just things.