Whatever makes you happy..

[Shush]

Interesting and worrying. Enforced by the previous comment that Ferage's lot are fascists. I refuse to believe that a large portion of the British population are "fascist", and let's face it, a large portion now supports Reform. Fascism, as far as I am aware, demands radical change and is outside of the democratic process.

Anyhow, there is clearly a watershed in British politics ahead, and more so now than ever before, name-calling will have more power than ever before: racist, traitor, Islamist, fascist, communist, globalist, etc., because of internet access.

I will say two things: maybe it is a good thing that the UK's two-horse race between Labour and Conservative is over, and more importantly, I have broken my own personal rule of not getting involved with political discussion on this hallowed forum!

With you there, pal.  I'm often in Manchester and there are often various rallies going on there.  And, my God, there are some seriously nasty scenes going on there...

I'll start by saying I am on NO side of the whole conflict.  It's an awful scenario that has been going on for too long, both sides have been doing some terrible things for a long time over claims for land that are a bit vague at best.

And both sides of the debate are posting awfully violent and antagonizing clips of the other... and those who are addicted to social media just lap it up.  Gotta have the two minute hate, eh?  A few knuckleheads shouting racial abuse?  Not OK.  But there are people on the same side who are just concerned about their country and tens of thousands of people who are being let in without screening (as the rest of us have when we travel abroad) who come from countries that regard, say, women's rights aren't quite the same. It's not about skin colour or religion, just a recognition that societies aren't the same and it needs to be addressed.

But the Pro-Palestine side... I've witnessed with my own two eyes how utterly violent and nasty they can be.  They can be bullying and vicious and, as Shush says, utterly dismissive of anyone who doesn't go along with what they say.   They dismiss anyone as 'Far Right' who might engage them in conversation that is different to their ideals.  They boast about fighting 'fascists' and scream 'Nazi Scum Off Our Streets'... they demonize anyone who disagree with them, they reduce personal identity to easy hate words and refuse debate whilst masking their faces and attacking.  Please don't disagree with me on this one, I've seen it.

'This golden age of communication where everybody talks at the same time'.. prescient words indeed.  I'm just so f-ing tired with the whole thing. Social f-ing media is fueling so much ill-informed hatred.  WW3 could be on the horizon.  I just wish people would sit down and talk.   :'(

The one thing I think they all really know, but just choose to deny – both sides – you can try your hardest to demonise the other side with hurty words, Nazi, Communist, racist, etc. – it has no effect. None is going to say to themselves, "Hey, that lefty called me a fascist!! , I'm going to home and rethink my life; maybe I should become a Labour supporter!"

[Winterwulf]

This is the sort of discussion that would be great to do in a pub over a few pints, but never mind, we're online, talking to each other and not shrieking abuse at each other which is good. Far more importantly, nuance is coming into it which is the thing too often lost on social media, where far too many people want to "see the world in black and white, instead of a hundred shades of grey".
 
Whilst I do plead guilty in part to name-calling by describing Nigel Farage and Reform as fascists, I will also plead mitigation as a student of history and someone who tries to pull information about current affairs from multiple sources and is seriously worried by the patterns I'm seeing, specifically "wedge" creep of the propositions being put to the country about the source of their ills. Go back to pre-Brexit times and it was all about how the UK's problems were all down to being an EU member and how our open borders within the EU were flooding us with all these people from Eastern Europe and everything would be wonderful if we threw off all those EU diktats holding us back and all those people coming here and taking all the jobs and houses...

As an aside here, an old mate of mine from my time at Bradford Uni now lives in Warsaw - he once commented to me that a lot of the Poles with drive and ambition came to Britain when Poland joined the EU, leaving the whingers and slackers behind and they're now all moaning about how the all the jobs and houses are being taken by those Belarussians and Ukranians and how it would be so much better if they were kicked out - sound familiar?

Back to the UK now, and we're out of the UK so what can be blamed? Those people trying to get across the channel, let's ignore the removal of ways for those genuinely needing shelter in the UK to claim that without setting foot in the country, and instead focus on the ones who don't need asylum but see a better life here. The systems we have in place struggle to distinguish between them so let's then blame the international legal structures that come into play. Withdrawing from the ECHR is now the thing we apparently "just need to do to take back control" but stop for a minute and consider what else is underpinned by it. A lot of protections for all of us, like employment rights, environmental protections, to name but a few - all hard-won by past generations, but shall they be thrown away because there are people risking crossing the channel in dinghies? If you've never come across it, look up Chesterton's fence - before decrying any regulation as " red tape" and demanding it be removed, you should be able to show that the reason for the fence being built in the first place is no longer valid.

Now... ask Cicero's question about this "Who benefits?" The answer as I see it is , not us ordinary people but the ones with money pushing it into Farage's pocket who would really like to be able to pollute if it increases their profits, screw their employees over without any redress, and generally do what the hell they like, having us back in the UK Victorian era or pre-WW2 America.

Look to America under Trump (who Farage so admires and aspires to be) , Hungary under Orban, or Russia under Putin for the warnings, and the reasons I'm so worried about Farage getting real power are there - all were democratically elected promising better times for ordinary people because "the elite" and " the others" were stopping them getting it but what you actually get are the dismantling of the checks and balances of a properly functioning democratic state.

Going off at a tangent though, one thing that I recently got really pissed off at was Bangor Uni's debating society refusing to invite Sarah Pochin and another Reform representative because they felt they "shouldn't be giving a platform" to them and their views. Well, they may be feeling pleased with themselves with their little bit of cancel culture, but for those of us with longer memories who remember the British National Party on the rise as a political party, we remember the " no platform" squeals when Nick Griffin was invited onto "Question Time".  What happened? The audience utterly crucified him and shattered the  mask of the BNP as a serious political party and instead dragged its racist reality into the light.

I'll have to stop there for now as it's bed time (up at 5.45 as usual) but there's a lot more we can go over, not to mention a lot of tangents I would have gone off on if we'd been talking in the pub, so if people are happy to continue, great! We need more reasoned discussion at length over the problems of today if we're going to find real solutions.

[Shush]

With regard to Poland, yes, when hundreds of thousands headed west (not just the UK), Polish university graduates were able to find all the lesser-desired jobs, washing pots and turning down beds in hotels/restaurants for wages that were to them astronomical. At the same time, hundreds of thousands from Ukraine went to Poland illegally, filling the created void. - Everyone goes west; it's where the money is. Since we have left the EU, the Poles were allowed to stay, but as this country slips deeper into the doldrums, at the same time, Poland is on the rise and rising fast. Hundreds of thousands of Poles have been flooding back home, and there is a clear divide: those who have only managed to find such low-paid jobs are the ones going back, whereas those who have done better tend to stay. Personally I have not come across any large-scale resentment to what must be since the war, around 2 million Ukrainians in Poland, but to be fair, I know fewer Poles now than I used to. Hosting the Ukrainians by the Poles is a strong statement of being anti-Russian, and the Ukrainians are working, contributing and helping the Polish economy, which has now reached a trillion-dollar turnover. 
Back to the other point, I am sorry; I just cannot imagine Ferage wanting to take power and then abolish democracy. You could equally throw the same suggestion at Corbyn or Polanski, both leaders of, in my view, equally out-of-the-ordinary??, untried and tested parties. Just as Labour has done from the Tories, whoever takes power next is going to inherit all of the problems Labour did and maybe some that Labour will have since created. So, any of three new parties could say, 'We have not had enough time to sort out previous problems or time to implement our plan, so we are cancelling the next election!!' I just cannot imagine the nation allowing such a takeover. 
I will agree with your comment; it is not a good idea to ban or refuse debate. Personally, I am not a fan of banning any political party. Never really understood the "ban the BNP" philosophy. If you ban it, you just drive it underground; you can make it more, not less, attractive to people with extremist views. When a radical party or movement is out in the open, you can keep an eye on it, and yes, let it show its inadequacies as a serious alternative – extreme left or right. In Poland they have recently banned the Communist Party. Admittedly, it's more to do with always distancing themselves from anything Russian and the shackles of the decades of being a semi-occupied Russian satellite state, but it's an ideology that stands no chance in modern Poland and has now just been given that air of mystery, maybe mystique, to anyone who wants to find out more about it.

[Winterwulf]

I don't think Farage would abolish democracy if he were to get into power, but rather subvert it to a facade. For an example of this at its most extreme, look at what Putin did in Russia, where there are still "free" elections or so the Kremlin claims, despite independent media having been all but destroyed and rival candidates barred from standing or murdered. Now look at Orban's Hungary, where the media and legal systems have been suborned to Fidusz and fictional threat of some external enemy amplified through mainstream media and legally-sanctioned gerrymandering is used to swing elections to them - look at how hard and dirty Orban is fighting now that he's looking like losing to a former colleague, and trying to make Ukraine the baddy for stopping the oil supply from Russia, despite a Russian strike having caused the damage to the pipeline that caused the stoppage. Trump is trying to do the same in America but it's looking like a combination of incompetence and hubris will eventually result in failure, for all the damage that's been done around the world beforehand.

Something that popped up in one of my feeds today was a book review from the Grauniad of one written by Liam Byrne (he of the infamous "sorry there's no money, good luck" note left at the Treasury in 2010) about populist parties in Europe and how to tackle them. This bit of the review summarises his analysis of them nicely, so I'm quoting it here 'Byrne neatly lays out the movement’s paradoxes and hypocrisies. It’s against elites, but led and funded by the rich. It presents itself as a mass uprising, but relies on low turnouts for much of its electoral success. It talks a lot about freedom, but its policies are authoritarian. It promises a glorious future, but its social vision is “soaked in the brandy of nostalgia”'

One tangent I've tried not to go off on is the common pattern here, and where it's coming from. Have you ever heard of the Atlas Network? They're a grouping of right-wing think tanks, funded by generous donations from... they'd prefer the general populace not to know where, spreading ideas and policies to advance the neo-liberal low tax, no regulation, free market uber alles and screw the poor and weak worldview of the super-rich though their media friends and  politicians happy to receive their ready-made ideas. Liz Truss's unfunded tax cuts idea that brought her down? Straight from the UK members of the network, one of whom got put into the Lords by her in her leaving honours list. If you're looking for a genuine global conspiracy, the Atlas Network is where to look.

As for left-wing populism, I've got a lot of scepticism for the likes of Corbyn and Polanski too. While I agree that the rise of inequality and failure to levy more tax on income not generated directly from work has seriously damaged the country, simply creating another enemy group called "the rich" and proposing taxes just on them isn't going to fix the country - it needs serious, thought through and holistic measures to get us going back in the right direction. Where the Greens are concerned, I think that's their biggest failure - you'd think a party founded on environmentalism would get the importance of holistic thinking, but no, these days they just seem to latch onto something that sounds good to them and run around waving it regardless of what its actual impact would be if implemented.

There's also that nasty tendency to try and shout down anyone disagreeing over contentious issues, as Master Ray mentioned above. Apart from Palestine, the trans "debate" has gone that way pretty badly where far too many people have forgotten that debate means that each side gets a chance to put their case forward, and refute the opposing case, not scream and shout and throw abuse.

Enough from me for one post, time for someone else to have a say...