Author Topic: EU Referendum  (Read 18250 times)

ldopas

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2016, 01:13:11 PM »
For those who missed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BFSJRH1q-A

Faisal Islam well done great performance.

Dave shit.

Great performance on doing what? Yeah Cameron is a twit. But again are we not just looking with complete bias at politicians we do not vote for in General Elections and instantly not listening to them or dismissing what they say because "they said it".

It also depends on the bias of the interviewer, Channel 4 news makes Jeremy Clarkson seem like a trot, Kate Garroway who asked some questions to Call Me Dave this morning is married to a Labour spin doctor with a less than salubrious record, shall we say.

Personally I think this is a massively important vote and too important to be at the level where we say that because [Corbyn][Cameron][Boris][Nigel][Clegg][Lucas] (ring whichever one) said it it must be shit?

I understand that this board leans to the left. So I understand why hardly anyone has given Corbyn, who is awol in any debate and had ducked and dived. We also forget that while Cameron is a twit, he at least is defending a position he said he would take and has unerringly kept to it.

Whereas Corbyn has u-turned an entire political career where he stood next to Tony Benn for decades preaching we must get out of the EU, to now suddenly have seen the EU as the holy grail in the last year and decided we must stay. That is pure hypocrisy.

Anyway in summary. F*** em all, they all have agendas. Lets just read what facts we can glean, look at personal experience, march down to those booths and put a cross where we want. Then the next day we can say "I told you so" if it goes Right/Wrong (delete where appropriate). Those who don't vote can stay silent as far as I'm concerned.  :)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 01:15:44 PM by ldopas »

Danny

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #136 on: June 03, 2016, 02:21:58 PM »
Whereas Corbyn has u-turned an entire political career where he stood next to Tony Benn for decades preaching we must get out of the EU, to now suddenly have seen the EU as the holy grail in the last year and decided we must stay. That is pure hypocrisy.

You mean like your obese inbred friend boris johnson has done (till 2 weeks before 'declaring' for leave he was actively stating the benefits of staying)? Except I don't hear you complain about that piece of shit doing that.
Corbyn is being politically smart, for once, and seeing as personally I dislike pretty much both sides (the EU and the people who most vocally call for leaving it) and all I care about this referendum is seeing the tories rip each other apart and hopefully doing themselves lasting damage I certainly applaud that. [I will vote by the way, but as to which way it'll depend on what I believe will further my stated aim most]

ldopas

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #137 on: June 03, 2016, 04:13:23 PM »
Whereas Corbyn has u-turned an entire political career where he stood next to Tony Benn for decades preaching we must get out of the EU, to now suddenly have seen the EU as the holy grail in the last year and decided we must stay. That is pure hypocrisy.

You mean like your obese inbred friend boris johnson has done (till 2 weeks before 'declaring' for leave he was actively stating the benefits of staying)? Except I don't hear you complain about that piece of shit doing that.
Corbyn is being politically smart, for once, and seeing as personally I dislike pretty much both sides (the EU and the people who most vocally call for leaving it) and all I care about this referendum is seeing the tories rip each other apart and hopefully doing themselves lasting damage I certainly applaud that. [I will vote by the way, but as to which way it'll depend on what I believe will further my stated aim most]

Why is Johnson "my friend". Where have I ever said I support Johnson? Answer; never. So why the aggressive assumption to a perfectly reasonable post of mine?

So please listen. Yes Johnson, and indeed most of the Tory and many of the Labour MPs have cynically moved and positioned themselves. Which makes them all what they always were. Hypocrites.

But whatever we think of Johnson, he is a man not on any real political radars a decade or more ago. Whereas "politically smart" Corbyn has been on the radar for decades. Which makes him the same, but probably more so. But I understand how political leanings can make some people think that is smart. I do not.

Still, if you are voting leave or stay based on how it will effect a party you do not like, on a massive European issue that will effect generations then I suspect you and I are probably not on the same page. Fair enough?

Johnz

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #138 on: June 13, 2016, 01:10:58 PM »
Not having been on this board much lately, I actually just read this whole thread. Plenty of good points either way.

Idopas, how was my post rude? Essentially, I was comparing Brussels to London which I think is valid.

I still think that it would be a great shame if Britain left the EU. I feel that both sides would be worse off. To me a vote against Europe is essentially a vote for the right regardless of anyone's actual political leanings. I just can't see it any other way. I hope I'm wrong. I agree with most of the arguments levelled against the EU but I just don't think that the alternative will bring the desired results.

Anyway, choose wisely people. As others have said, this is bigger than any particular party or politician that you may dislike.


MARKXE

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #139 on: June 13, 2016, 02:43:17 PM »

Pumpkin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #140 on: June 13, 2016, 06:21:29 PM »
I’m unclear as to how anyone really thinks staying in the EU is in any of our best interests.

For example, the decision of the Maastricht Treaty over 20 years ago to replace the European Economic Community (EEC) with the European Union (EU), further to a view of much closer political integration, is simply a huge mistake with serious consequences, especially in a Europe only recently united after post-war divisions.

It is impossible to create an EU super-state on a continent as fractured as Europe. Europe cannot be worked according to some ‘pseudo-scientific’ American political model. If Brussels were serious about trying to do the super-state, then it would hardly impose its will on any member state which disagrees with it (See Treaty of Lisbon in Ireland done twice through a referendum to ensure a ‘yes’ vote, removal of leaders in Greece and Italy etc…). 

Clearly, Brussels doesn’t understand what Washington did back in 1783 – the necessary system of checks and balances with a larger, diverse union further to expansion. Neither does Brussels fully understand the role of history in places like Central and Eastern Europe, and that imposing something like refugee quotas on particular states which fought against the Ottoman Turks for centuries isn’t going to wash and is only going to increase nationalist reactions in states which have only recently discovered or re-discovered independence.

We are not ‘one’ but ‘many’. The UK itself is one of the best examples of a political and economic union, one which has evolved and works more on the basis of devolution now than strict centralisation. The EU, on the other hand, has become increasingly bureaucratic, centralised and with greater disregard for the democratic pursuits of its own member states. We are not signing from the same hymn sheet, nor should we be.

Why are we under some kind of illusion that the EU brings us greater freedoms and economic prosperity? Most EU member states’ economies are simply a disgrace of corruption and stagnation entrenched by the use of the Euro which benefits no one’s economy but Germany’s. Greece is the best example of a country which has gone down the shitter since its membership over 30 years ago, the group of PIIGS a great example of economies going nowhere fast in what is supposed to be a prosperous Europe shackled with debt and indecision. The same prosperous Europe in which its two richest nations (Norway and Switzerland) reject EU membership outright. The EU's recent handling of the crisis in Ukraine, which was keen to join, was nothing better than a joke on the stage of international diplomacy - an own goal to Putin if ever there was one.

Immigration is a huge point of contention not only in the UK, but throughout the EU. Ask yourself just how exactly each member state ‘agreed’ to this condition. Was there really a vote on this matter, or was it decided in the boardrooms of Brussels to facilitate cheap labour from states of high unemployment? Then ask yourself how each state could make a decision to act independently from Brussels on this issue – should they wish to renegotiate the terms of the freedom of movement or remove themselves from it altogether. Nevertheless, the ‘democratic deficit’ and the lack of cohesion of the participating member states are actually the least of our worries in some ways by this sad and sorry stage.   

If the UK does have the courage to leave, and I certainly hope it does, it simply paves the way for the organisation in its current form to collapse...or, what I would like to see is the decision to return to the conditions of the EEC prior to 1995.

Brexit.

What other EU member states will really want to remain in a post-Brexit union dominated by Germany, given Europe’s most recent past? Benelux, France? The UK’s departure will be followed by others without doubt (most likely Denmark, Hungary, Poland etc…). No one really gives a toss of any sort whether a member state like Slovakia or Greece, for example, pulls out. No one lost sleep over a possible Grexit. It’s a different matter if the UK or Germany wants out, however.

That in itself proves that the EU cannot and will never be a union of equals with a common aim, so let’s cut to the quick on the issue and admit what it’s really about.

Cameron and Corbyn advocating a 'yes' vote is little more than lining the Swiss (not in the EU) bank account.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 06:52:38 PM by Pumpkin »

Pol

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #141 on: June 13, 2016, 07:49:06 PM »
Interesting that labour have sent out the. "big guns"  Gordon fcking Brown the only good thing he did was help inspire the tiagd lp . Cameron has played his trump card early - pensions might have to be cut in an attempt to frighten oaps the people most likely to vote and vote out. Labour had the chance last week to vote against the tpd (European directive on tobacco n vaping) . Corbyn said it was wrong yet he sends the party whips and shadow health minister out of get everyone on side. No wonder the party is going down the pan . 1 Scottish mp and beaten into 3rd place in the Scottish Parliament by the fcking tories wtf. Get a grip Jeremy, how long till England wakes up and realises your party is full o shit , if it hasn't already
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Master Ray

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #142 on: June 13, 2016, 07:59:45 PM »
Agreed, Pol.  I'd love to be a fervent and true-believing Labour supporter but they seem incapable of electing a leader who is palatable to the general public.  I mean, that arsewomble Milliband... was Mr Bean unavailable?  I've not completely written Corbyn off yet, but I'm a millimetre away...

But I do think that Cameron is finished, regardless of the EU result.  He can't control his own party and he's been caught in a 'pants on fire' scenario too many times...
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Pol

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2016, 10:32:59 PM »
Was funny to hear dodgy Dave saying he will continue to be leader no matter what, I suppose the tories can afford to rip themselves apart when is no meaning full challenge, one good thing the end is surely near for nasty Nigel whatever the result
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Bunny

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #144 on: June 14, 2016, 06:05:13 AM »
I’m unclear as to how anyone really thinks staying in the EU is in any of our best interests.

For example, the decision of the Maastricht Treaty over 20 years ago to replace the European Economic Community (EEC) with the European Union (EU), further to a view of much closer political integration, is simply a huge mistake with serious consequences, especially in a Europe only recently united after post-war divisions.

It is impossible to create an EU super-state on a continent as fractured as Europe. Europe cannot be worked according to some ‘pseudo-scientific’ American political model. If Brussels were serious about trying to do the super-state, then it would hardly impose its will on any member state which disagrees with it (See Treaty of Lisbon in Ireland done twice through a referendum to ensure a ‘yes’ vote, removal of leaders in Greece and Italy etc…). 

Clearly, Brussels doesn’t understand what Washington did back in 1783 – the necessary system of checks and balances with a larger, diverse union further to expansion. Neither does Brussels fully understand the role of history in places like Central and Eastern Europe, and that imposing something like refugee quotas on particular states which fought against the Ottoman Turks for centuries isn’t going to wash and is only going to increase nationalist reactions in states which have only recently discovered or re-discovered independence.

We are not ‘one’ but ‘many’. The UK itself is one of the best examples of a political and economic union, one which has evolved and works more on the basis of devolution now than strict centralisation. The EU, on the other hand, has become increasingly bureaucratic, centralised and with greater disregard for the democratic pursuits of its own member states. We are not signing from the same hymn sheet, nor should we be.

Why are we under some kind of illusion that the EU brings us greater freedoms and economic prosperity? Most EU member states’ economies are simply a disgrace of corruption and stagnation entrenched by the use of the Euro which benefits no one’s economy but Germany’s. Greece is the best example of a country which has gone down the shitter since its membership over 30 years ago, the group of PIIGS a great example of economies going nowhere fast in what is supposed to be a prosperous Europe shackled with debt and indecision. The same prosperous Europe in which its two richest nations (Norway and Switzerland) reject EU membership outright. The EU's recent handling of the crisis in Ukraine, which was keen to join, was nothing better than a joke on the stage of international diplomacy - an own goal to Putin if ever there was one.

Immigration is a huge point of contention not only in the UK, but throughout the EU. Ask yourself just how exactly each member state ‘agreed’ to this condition. Was there really a vote on this matter, or was it decided in the boardrooms of Brussels to facilitate cheap labour from states of high unemployment? Then ask yourself how each state could make a decision to act independently from Brussels on this issue – should they wish to renegotiate the terms of the freedom of movement or remove themselves from it altogether. Nevertheless, the ‘democratic deficit’ and the lack of cohesion of the participating member states are actually the least of our worries in some ways by this sad and sorry stage.   

If the UK does have the courage to leave, and I certainly hope it does, it simply paves the way for the organisation in its current form to collapse...or, what I would like to see is the decision to return to the conditions of the EEC prior to 1995.

Brexit.

What other EU member states will really want to remain in a post-Brexit union dominated by Germany, given Europe’s most recent past? Benelux, France? The UK’s departure will be followed by others without doubt (most likely Denmark, Hungary, Poland etc…). No one really gives a toss of any sort whether a member state like Slovakia or Greece, for example, pulls out. No one lost sleep over a possible Grexit. It’s a different matter if the UK or Germany wants out, however.

That in itself proves that the EU cannot and will never be a union of equals with a common aim, so let’s cut to the quick on the issue and admit what it’s really about.

Cameron and Corbyn advocating a 'yes' vote is little more than lining the Swiss (not in the EU) bank account.
Gotta say whilst your post is put together well, Im unsure about your comment about EU being led by Germany and Europes recent past. Surely to god you arent referring to something that happened 70 years ago? If so, how long is that stick gonna be used??
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Pumpkin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #145 on: June 14, 2016, 09:21:30 AM »
Gotta say whilst your post is put together well, Im unsure about your comment about EU being led by Germany and Europes recent past. Surely to god you arent referring to something that happened 70 years ago? If so, how long is that stick gonna be used??

Germany has the largest economy, it has increasingly taken on a greater role in political leadership under Merkle (largely unwanted it must be said) and its influence over the European Central Bank in Frankfurt, which controls the Euro and all the Eurozone countries' monetary policies, is immense. German banks play the leading role throughout the Eurozone. Devaluation of the Euro to favour German exports comes at the expense of making imports more expensive, especially in Eurozone countries which are more dependent on imports.

I agree with you about the lasting effects of WWII and that it is unfair to hang this over Germany all these years later. I couldn't agree more. However, it is a very real consideration throughout almost all of the newer EU states from Poland to Hungary and to a country which considers itself a 'victim' of German fiscal and monetary policies and likes to evoke memories of Nazi occupation. Of course, this is Greece. There are also the Baltic States which glorify the role of the Nazis in WWII over that of the Soviets. We have moved mostly beyond this in Western Europe, but such cannot be said of the newer states where history is much more real and relevant. If you remove the UK from the EU, then Germany's position becomes strengthened, and that brings back very unfavourable memories. Even Norway is dubious of joining a German-dominated EU. The on-going conflict in Ukraine between the pro-EU and anti-EU sides regularly features reflections about WWII. The referendum in Crimea was fought by the pro-Russian faction on the memories of a Nazi occupied Crimea during WWII.

I've spent a lot of time recently in Greece and Norway and hear very similar arguments against the EU. Norway has officially rejected the EU twice, and the memories of WWII can play a significant role in that at times, as it does in Greece.

If I were Greek, I have no doubt whatsoever that I would also want out of the EU. Greece is a disaster compared to 25-30 years ago, simply a disaster with no control over its borders, its currency, its debt etc... This is not exclusive to Greece though by any means.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 09:27:05 AM by Pumpkin »

Pumpkin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #146 on: June 14, 2016, 09:42:14 AM »
...one good thing the end is surely near for nasty Nigel whatever the result

What happens if the referendum produces a 'leave' vote?


Johnz

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #147 on: June 14, 2016, 10:52:28 AM »
Some interesting points here. Norway and Greece are at opposite ends of the EU debate though. For Norway, like Switzerland, it would make no sense to join the EU. They are the richest countries so they would only end up paying. In Norway, you have the added effect of, not only German occupation, but also centuries of Danish rule. They have only been a sovereign nation for around 100 years and they have no interest in giving away any of their hard earned independence.

Greece is just a mess. A lose-lose scenario created by local corruption and incompetence and EU (mostly German) economic and political interests. However, I disagree that a Grexit wouldn't have mattered. It would have destabilized Europe at it's most crucial location so it really was in no one's interest for them to leave.

Britain's situation is different, I feel. The benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Also, without Britain, the EU would lose some important balance. I don't think anyone considers the EU great anymore, but I, like many others, I feel it's better than not having it.

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if Britain left. As islanders, Brits have always disliked the idea of conceding power to an outside force. The scaremongering and pointless threats by EU officials only make people more resolute to leave. A recent poll showed that out of all EU member states, Brits are the least informed about the actual workings of the EU. So I fear that the referendum will be decided mostly by polemics and not actual facts. Same could be said for any election, I guess. 

If the EU want Britain to stay they need to come out and say it rather than threaten with hypothetical consequences. The EU needs Britain. If Cameron hadn't grovelled to Scotland, I'm sure that referendum would have turned out differently. It is much the same in this case.

Sadly I can't see this being the end of Farage or those that will replace him. And that is really my greatest worry. A 'no' to Europe is not only a 'yes' to UKIP and Boris Johnson but also to Front National, Alternative fuer Deutschland and all the other right wingers gaining power all over Europe.

Master Ray

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #148 on: June 14, 2016, 08:00:28 PM »
Anyone see the front covers of the UK newspapers today?  Almost all MASSIVELY in favour of a Brexit vote, even the ridiculous comic that is The Sun, who've been kissing Cameron arse since the last general election and now seem to have done a complete 180 degree turn...

I genuinely believe, for the first time, that a Brexit vote may win it.
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Pumpkin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #149 on: June 14, 2016, 10:29:41 PM »
Some interesting points here. Norway and Greece are at opposite ends of the EU debate though. For Norway, like Switzerland, it would make no sense to join the EU. They are the richest countries so they would only end up paying. In Norway, you have the added effect of, not only German occupation, but also centuries of Danish rule. They have only been a sovereign nation for around 100 years and they have no interest in giving away any of their hard earned independence.

Greece is just a mess. A lose-lose scenario created by local corruption and incompetence and EU (mostly German) economic and political interests. However, I disagree that a Grexit wouldn't have mattered. It would have destabilized Europe at it's most crucial location so it really was in no one's interest for them to leave.

Britain's situation is different, I feel. The benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Also, without Britain, the EU would lose some important balance. I don't think anyone considers the EU great anymore, but I, like many others, I feel it's better than not having it.

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if Britain left. As islanders, Brits have always disliked the idea of conceding power to an outside force. The scaremongering and pointless threats by EU officials only make people more resolute to leave. A recent poll showed that out of all EU member states, Brits are the least informed about the actual workings of the EU. So I fear that the referendum will be decided mostly by polemics and not actual facts. Same could be said for any election, I guess. 

If the EU want Britain to stay they need to come out and say it rather than threaten with hypothetical consequences. The EU needs Britain. If Cameron hadn't grovelled to Scotland, I'm sure that referendum would have turned out differently. It is much the same in this case.

Sadly I can't see this being the end of Farage or those that will replace him. And that is really my greatest worry. A 'no' to Europe is not only a 'yes' to UKIP and Boris Johnson but also to Front National, Alternative fuer Deutschland and all the other right wingers gaining power all over Europe.

Yes, Norway and Greece are at opposite ends, but it illustrates the fact that the EU provides little benefit to either one of them for very different reasons.

Greece is an absolute and utter mess, one which most EU member states would be glad to see removed from the organisation. Grexit was of little interest to Brussels in terms of their contribution to the EU, but it did matter that allowing them to leave would have opened a can of worms and paved the way for others to do so. The fact that the EU gives little more than a slight toss for Greece's current predicament and more for what could be concluded if they leave (e.g. failure of the Euro and closer political and economic integration) says a lot about where the EU is going. It says even more that they want to 'reward' the likes of Erdogan in Turkey, himself an obstruction to the whole crisis, yet continue to impose measures on Greece which simply cannot be met. You almost have to ask yourself which one is actually a member. Are people really that ignorant of the role of Greece in European civilisation? Are these people really right in the head wanting to impose immigration quotas and fixed penalties on its member states, some of which have an average monthly wage of less than €1000? Mental.

You're quite right that the EU would lose balance and that it needs the UK. It does, of course, have a strange way of showing it - somewhat like Corbyn's half-arsed attempt to favour a 'remain' vote, yet do little in terms of campaigning for one. I don't hear any significant voices in Europe urging the UK to remain, but then again do we know who these significant voices are when such key people aren't elected in the first place? We're not the only ones who dislike conceding power to an outside force: look at Poland and Hungary in particular. Can't say I'm a fan of Poland's current government, but that the EU under Donald Tusk, himself a Pole, wants to impose its own directive(s) over that of a sovereign nation (member) state is more than just a bit of a worry. Then again, we've seen this time and time again. When the Irish refused to accept The Treaty of Lisbon in a referendum, they were told to do it again and get a 'yes' the second time round. They did, so Brussels just wagged its finger again and put away the whip.

I fail to see the benefits of remaining an EU member in its current form; Cameron has done damn all to secure a better deal. It will take something as serious as Brexit to initiate real reform. Cameron is simply a schoolboy and an embarrassment on the international stage. I've heard farts with more conviction.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 10:38:53 PM by Pumpkin »