Author Topic: EU Referendum  (Read 18169 times)

Pol

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #195 on: June 20, 2016, 07:02:07 PM »
You make some excellent points pumpkin and I'm not gonna disagree with any of them.

Well at least Alex Salmond had the balls to call it, were all disgusted at the murder of Jo Cox but sadly it might swing peoples vote n I'm sure that's the last thing she would have wanted.
Scotland would be crazy to call another independence vote anytime soon, Imo we can't afford to leave the UK just now and I voted yes last time, think we would be deep in the shit if the yes campaign had won. Anyway I don't get it, lets leave the UK but stay in Europe. Governments need to be more localized
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Pumpkin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #196 on: June 20, 2016, 07:39:39 PM »
You make some excellent points pumpkin and I'm not gonna disagree with any of them.

Well at least Alex Salmond had the balls to call it, were all disgusted at the murder of Jo Cox but sadly it might swing peoples vote n I'm sure that's the last thing she would have wanted.
Scotland would be crazy to call another independence vote anytime soon, Imo we can't afford to leave the UK just now and I voted yes last time, think we would be deep in the shit if the yes campaign had won. Anyway I don't get it, lets leave the UK but stay in Europe. Governments need to be more localized

Likewise, Pol.

Auld Alex also has a good point, but you could hear a gasp or two from the presenter. Miss the frequency of his 'call a spade, a spade' approach in politics.

I don't get the 'let's leave the UK, but jump into a tightly centralised EU' argument either. I really don't, especially when the "Remain" argument is based on the concept that we're stronger in than out. An independent Scotland will not have the same power as a Scotland which is as a constituent part of the UK.

Coumarin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #197 on: June 20, 2016, 07:44:18 PM »
Just one question. I'm off to France next week for the Somme Centenary,

Should I buy my Euros before or after the referendum?
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Pumpkin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #198 on: June 20, 2016, 07:49:28 PM »
Well...funny how the pound has bounced back now that "Remain" is looking better to good...oh the fickle nature of it all....

I reckon "Remain" will win and the pound might be rewarded for its troubles for a week or two just to drive the point home loud and clear...

Pol

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #199 on: June 20, 2016, 09:16:59 PM »
Should I wait to make my next purchase from china then , where the prices on the website are in dollars
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c

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #200 on: June 22, 2016, 02:56:02 PM »
I find it very interesting that a lot of people on this board want to vote to Leave, when most of the Labour leadership seem to want to remain (leaving Corbyn aside - I suspect that if the last leadership election had led to someone else being Labour leader, he would have been on the side of Leave). Is this part of a fundamental disconnect between the Labour leadership and their natural constituency? or a result pf the Labour leadership's general silence (presumably a lesson learned from the fate of Scottish labour?)

Personally I understand the argument about the democratic deficit in the EU, but see the way to change that as being within the EU, not out of it. I don't think we will be able to manage to negotiate decent trade agreements if we leave - too many EU politicians would want to make an example of us so other countries don't agitate to follow, and I wouldn't rely on Trump's promise to negotiate a deal quickly.  If he gets in (God help America!) he'll be too busy doing other things. I'm not sure Hilary would make it her first priority either. Russia's economy is going to pot, and the BRICS countries are fundamentally protectionist. Which leaves us on our own, and notwithstanding the strength of our financial services industry, I am not sure that will be enough to prevent a lasting downturn.

That probably leaves me with a "better the devil you know" vote. but mixing the metaphor, I still want to sup with a long spoon and don't want further integration. To my mind the EU should remain a trade bloc and not become a federation.


 

New Model Army

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #201 on: June 22, 2016, 04:52:29 PM »
Leave / Remain

We have remained quiet on the big issue facing Brits tomorrow. However, as the moment approaches and the arguments on both sides get nastier and more threatening in tone, it’s hard not to say something – even if the opinions of a bunch of musicians have no particular significance.

Yes, from a purely selfish point of view, Remain is 100% in our personal interest. The existence of the EU is why it is so easy for us to regularly tour across Europe without the need for carnets and work permits (the reason we are unlikely to tour in the US in the near future) and stacks of expensive paperwork. Leave would make this all harder and more complicated for us, and for all similar musicians and artists crossing the Channel in either direction.

But that’s not our point. It seems that the referendum in the UK has become simply an opportunity to ‘stick it’ to the status quo and there are many, many good reasons to want to do this. And the more people at the top of society, from politicians to successful business people, ‘the good and the great’, tell us to vote Remain, the more likely people are to want to take the opportunity to say ‘**** you’. The Remain camp’s tactics have been all based on economic threats, but since the 1980s, and certainly since 2008, people have been entitled to believe that ‘economic benefits’ are entirely skewed towards those people that already have everything and are not, in any sense, shared by us all – so what difference will it make? When one ‘shock’ headline suggests that house prices would fall dramatically in case of Brexit, it’s hard not to think of anything that wouldn’t actually be better for the UK. We can see a good case for Leave, which is based on justified criticism of the EU, on the idea of promoting local economies over global, corporate interests and on true humanist, democratic, internationalist principles.

But that is not what is driving the Brexit campaign; the people screaming loudest for Leave terrify us; the little Englanders, the ‘get rid of EU regulation that holds back business interests’ brigade, the fascistic tendency to want to go back to a wholly invented past, and in some quarters the overt racism and sheer nastiness. And this fear is shared by millions of people across the Continent who want a different, better Europe for themselves too. We believe that we are better standing together with them. The real troubles that plague Britain, chronic underinvestment, the flow of money and resources from public into private hands, mind-boggling levels of inequality and the squeeze on public services are not the fault of immigration or the EU, but the choices of our own governments since the 1980s.

The murder of Jo Cox was not directly related to the EU debate, or the rise of Donald Trump or Marine Le Pen, or the threat of terrorism or any particular event but is difficult to disassociate it from the general tide of hatred sweeping the globe, not to see an echo of the 1930s in the rise of religious fundamentalists and right wing demagogues everywhere, feeding on and stirring up divisions between people where such divisions are normally, at worst, the minor irritations of people’s every day lives. Are we bored of peace? Have we forgotten what tribal conflict and war is actually like? There may be some logical principles in Brexit but it’s loudest and most powerful backers, who will be most empowered by a Leave victory and most in a position to benefit, have a ruthless and entirely right wing agenda.

We are reminded of a German comedian who, answering the question as to whether Britain is really part of Europe, simply said ‘buy a f****** map’.

NMA

Johnz

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #202 on: June 22, 2016, 07:56:47 PM »
Thank you! I wholeheartedly agree. 

Pumpkin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #203 on: June 22, 2016, 09:07:08 PM »
I think trying to pin many of Brexit’s arguments on a right-wing agenda is to obscure the important wider arguments. I think it’s fundamental to remember that the left has many significant issues with the EU and a long-standing uneasiness with it which, unfortunately, has almost become passé in light of the belief that Brexit has been dominated by the right. Silent ‘voices’ have followed.

Many on the left, including Corbyn himself at one time before he decided to keep quiet about something he has long condemned, strongly consider the EU as a ‘bastion’ of neoliberalism. For example, the EU will influence the NHS and privatisation further, because it is the EU which seeks to advance such concepts throughout the union. The EU strongly agrees with Supply-Side Policies, most of which are opposed by the left. The EU can easily do so when they can over-ride the concerns of national governments. Have we not seen enough of this in the PIIGS? It is also the EU which preaches the need for austerity, a non-negotiable obligation, and promotes the adoption and use of the Euro, eliminating national control over monetary policy (interest rates, exchange rates, money supply). It is the EU which is firmly in the hands of big business. The EU simply fails to meet many fundamental left-leaning policies. Moreover, it controls monetary and supply-side policies, leaving only fiscal policies in the hands of national governments for the time being. One of the EU’s main aims is a centralised super-state. I think we can all agree on that one. The very notion is undemocratic; it is a tool for multinationals and globalisation, both ideas rather abhorrent to the left.

The majority of the British population is sceptical of the EU, and reluctant to go further down this road of political and economic integration. Why are we so sceptical when a country like Greece, which has suffered immensely, isn’t at all at the level of our Euro-scepticism? Yet both countries agree on this: the European super-state is dominated by Germany, as France has consistently lost political and economic influence over the last number of years, whilst the UK has all but lost interest. Has anyone seen Wolfgang Schauble’s comments about the UK and Greece? About the need to keep member states in line and punish those who don't? The House of Commons library research claims that, in terms of regulations and directives, half of all UK laws originate from Brussels and cannot be reversed. This is clearly a loss of sovereignty for all of its member states from the UK to Greece - the two countries at the forefront of a possible exit.

In terms of security and peace, we can sit here in Western Europe and think we’re doing a ‘splendid’ job, because we’re not affected by our own ****-ups. Or you can note, with that awful phrase ‘due diligence’, just how much the EU made a mess out of Yugoslavia and, more recently, Ukraine, because it couldn’t stick to its principles. It caved in to stronger powers. In both examples, the US and Russia had to tip the balance, simply because the EU couldn’t make up its mind and put collective words into collective actions – yet it asks for greater collective developments from its members. It argues for an EU Army which simply wouldn’t be able to agree on anything, because each state has different interests.

The main legacy of European Enlightenment is not, as intended, the collectivisation of political power in the hands of the people - rather, it is in the hands of a technocratic elite with scant regard for democracy. Where exactly was the debate on the issues of bank bailouts? Where was it not practiced? In Iceland, a non-EU state. The freedom of movement which could be argued as 'a race to the bottom in terms of wages'?  A common currency, yet no common system of taxation? Where is the discussion of such issues?

I know an argument which would go even further: that a single currency and a single government facilitate the interests of multinationals and globalisation. What else is the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) about? Would this not allow the NHS to be a target for multinational health-care companies? Education to be prioritised by multinational companies with more interest in profits than educational excellent? Why is there no vote on this issue? Little media coverage? Broad acceptance by mainstream political parties? What about the Investor State Dispute Settlement which will allow businesses to file a lawsuit against national governments if profits are infringed upon? Again, where is the coverage of such measures in mainstream media? The entire debate has been simplified beyond belief and the real issues often discarded.

The argument of backing the EU in this referendum, simply because the Tories are supposedly against it is weak at best and misguided by denial of the facts. Was it not the Tories who brought the UK into the EEC in ’73? A referendum on joining was only granted two years later. Thatcher and Major yapped about the EU, yet did nothing to remove the UK from it. If you want an illustration of how far Labour have fallen from their initial opposition, look no further than Blair who would have adopted the Euro, consigning the pound to history. The Euro itself has initiated untold misery throughout the PIIGS, yet Brussels responds with what exactly? Demand for greater powers, greater centralisation.

A significant factor behind UKIP’s success is that it has pulled Tory Euro-sceptics and traditional Labour voters, largely because the likes of Corbyn and Blair before him have forgotten their bread and butter electorate. UKIP have capitalised on discontent, largely because Labour has ignored such concerns from their own traditional electorate and the Tories don't have the balls, once and for all, to deal with this topic beyond some 1922 club for cigar smokers.

Even more stunning is that the small, independent parties which prioritise localisation of politics and greater devolution (Greens, Plaid Cymru and the SNP) refuse outright to challenge the aggressive centralisation of the EU and all its organs. 

In words no immortal than this: “Get…Me…Out” should the EU continue down its current path without significant reforms.

If we remain, we accept this status quo and forfeit the opportunity, indeed the right, to question it in future. It is too steep a price to pay. We will be made an example of, regardless the outcome.

MARKXE

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #204 on: June 22, 2016, 09:33:58 PM »


Well said Pumpkin

Bunny

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #205 on: June 22, 2016, 09:36:45 PM »
Pumpkin. The left and right will argue til its blue in the face. That is the way of things. You cast your eyes to the past to look at root and cause, but as history is set, no-one knows how a different history would look.
Rather than blame one side or t'other, it comes down to simple things. Do I beleive my future is better governed by the EU or by a British government? Do i beleive the freedoms I have, should be denied to others because their country is less well off? Do I beleive migration or EU business regs are crippling the UK?
Ultimately do I beleive Britain was/will be better without the EU?
Thats the crux of it.
Hala (from the Anglo-Saxon word "halh", meaning nook or remote valley), until it was gifted by King Henry II to Welsh Prince David Owen and became known as Halas Owen

Pol

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #206 on: June 22, 2016, 10:09:37 PM »
I would like to thank the band for taking the time to add to the debate.
I've made my mind up and will use my democratic vote. At least I can't be called a little Englander lol , seriously after Scottish independence vote recently I'm had enough of politics for a while. Lets accept the outcome what ever side your on .

Would also like to thank the other board members for what in the main has been a excellent debate. Will see some of you on the other side and enjoy a pint together
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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #207 on: June 22, 2016, 10:31:26 PM »


Well said Pumpkin

Indeed.

Agree with you Pumpkin, it is wrong to turn this referendum into a left V right wing debate. Both camps can find advantages and disadvantages. I do believe Cameron will do very well out of it if we chose to stay after potentially introducing  some appeasements for the millions who voted for out. 
Many have been calling for this referendum for years. A once in a lifetime opportunity which is unlikely to come around again.

Have to say, I have found the claims and propaganda from both sides in the process to be truly disheartening. The misleading claims, lies, exaggerated possibilities, Cameron and all his scenarios of what "might" happen if we leave from economic collapse to war. All very undemocratic. Clearly many  had  their choice made as soon as it was announced, but with all the B/S, it has been very unfair on the many who have had no deep opinion either way and have just wanted informed impartial advice.

Coumarin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #208 on: June 22, 2016, 11:15:30 PM »
I reckon ive just about nailed my euros for next week.

Cheers.... 1.23. (its going up!)

may mean an extra pint in an estaminet. or Toc H coffee will be cheaper. We will wait and see...
"Ruffling feathers" Founded 1971

Stephanie

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #209 on: June 23, 2016, 07:17:43 AM »
It has really been such a relief to be able to read arguments pro and contra delivered n a mostly sensible way - thank you.

Good luck with the voting today, whatever the outcome, I hope the other side is going to accept it without starting trouble.

For whatever it is worth - North Rhine Westphalia wants you guys to stay. Not the politicians, no, the people - a big regional radio station interviewed people and they did and online poll - and a large majority really wants you to stay in. ;-) We will still love you should you vote out, though.  :)