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General Category => Everything Else => Topic started by: MARKXE on February 20, 2016, 04:25:04 PM
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So the elected leader of our Country has battled hard in Brussels and secured the UK a "Special status".
Well done Dave.
(http://i.imgur.com/1t2Kpn2m.jpg)
Time for all the scaremongering stories to start on the Media channels about how bad it will be to leave the EU and to watch all the elected politicians squirm.
Do they go against Dave and risk their positions or do they go with their convictions and go against their leader.
The date is set and now we can look forward to debate after debate on the pros and cons.
Given that it is without doubt the most important vote you or I will probably make in our lifetime, which side are you on.
Yes or No
For me it has to be NO.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11324069/What-is-the-EU-referendum-and-when-is-it.html
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And so it begins................
I'm not convinced that either side has a particularly compelling case although on balance I think I'm in the YES camp, primarily because I fail to see how a return to "Splendid Isolation" will benefit the UK. Are we really still a "great" power or is that just rose tinted nostalgia for times that never really existed anyway? In an ever increasingly globalized world how does standing alone help? This is the question that I have not seen any answer to - how will we benefit from leaving?
Scaremongering will be what we are going to be fed incessantly from both camps over the next few months. I somehow doubt that calm rational debate is going to be in evidence. What concerns me is that this is actually going to end up as purely a decision on immigration/asylum and will not encompass the huge spectrum of issues that will be affected by this decision.
Then there is the issue of how how a decision to leave could affect the UK itself - will Scotland want to stay and would this inevitably lead us down the road to dissolution of the UK? But maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing anyway.
Like I said, I'm provisionally in the YES camp but I'm not ideologically wedded to that and could be persuaded by sound rational argument. However gut feeling says that anything endorsed by the likes of Farage, Galloway, Gove and Duncan-Smith is not somewhere I want to be.
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I as a German would say NO
Visiting London without the feeling I`m a criminal and needing a visa and beeing not a normal person, because I only want to visit an Army gig and eat perfect fish and chips ...
It`s better to stay and try to change something than to leave and stay outside with less influence (and wainting for stronger partners as - ???)
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Ok, so it's brought here now too.
I'm in the NO group. I voted for NO in 1994 too when the election was here. Leftwing were criticised then for having a same stance than the ones at right had but the reasons were different of course. But I hope it's not just the same theme among you folks over there. After being 20 years inside a union I'd humbly say things are more complex than just the quarrels between left and right.
It's hard to me to see what the EU profits about begging so much UK to join it... Is it so hard to the union to admit its own flaws? Still thinking that it's an adorable step to mysterious high levels? Remember, you can't depart it after joining it and food stuffs will become more expensive. Then there's a power elite in Brussels that will draw new frames for your policy.
Personally, I've enjoyed visiting UK and being outside of EU, exchanged currency to something else than euros. You're an authentic nation with a rich base of culture.
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Was very much on the fence for a long while, yes some of the employment laws have been good for us , some of the human rights laws have been way ott why should murders and rapists etc be able to sue us the tax payer, why did it take years to kick certainly hate preachers out. Yes Europe has brought money to some farmers and improved or towns and cities. What really pisses me off is some of laws the European Parliament seems able to pass , and yes I'm mainly thinking of the tpd right now, just how fcking stupid is some of that fck public health lets protect big tobacco and pharmaceutical companies and of course tax revenue. As a vapor I'm voting No. Don't forget this is a parliament that wanted e cigs on prescription with cigarettes available in every corner shop.
Fck I can't believe I'm in agreement with Nigel, ids and a few other nasty tories but the tpd was the final straw and I can't vote for that
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IMO, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. We're gonna be staying in because Call Me Dave wants it. The figures will be massaged, via one technicality or other, into something benefiting our glorious leader. And if this referendum doesn't work, it won't be a 'no', it'll be a 'OK, we'll work on it a bit and have another one next year...' ::)
There's no way the UK will come out of Europe because the big boys have too much money to make.
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Devil's in the detail though.............
If we leave the European Union we may not be obligated to the European Court Of Justice but as a member of the Council Of Europe we will still be bound by the European Court Of Human Rights - so which court pisses people off? And will a NO vote stop that ?
As for business and finance, does anyone think we won't still follow the temple of mammon? tpa, TTIP - all of this will still be slavishly adored. It's a question of where can influence be bought to bear.
Perhaps I'm too fatalistic and getting the hell out of there will bring us real independence and freedom to act as we see fit. Somehow I doubt it though and we will just accelerate our descent down the league table - ala Chelsea this season :D
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That said Anna, the European Court also safeguards us against unfair employment practice. Im fairly sure but stand to be corrected, that a lot of employment laws have stopped a lot of less salubrious employers doing as they will. Im wholly undecided tbh. For me the main No will be the anti-migration camp. I see the pro's and cons of it. The yes vote will be the financial/business argument. I really am undecided either way. I dont however beleive we will lose trade as a result of going alone. I genuinely dont know where ill make my mark.
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Can we please change it from "yes or no" to - in or out ?, or stay or go ? I am loosing track here. Is it yes we should stay, yes we should go.
this is easier --
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ
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Somehow it looks like today that every country feels they should be a part of something bigger; belong to a coalition of either vast territories, economic or militar coalitions. Like if the world was just the States, Europe, African, orients or Eur Asian and then those who are "alone" are without any shelter and intimidated about possible would-be threats.
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Can we please change it from "yes or no" to - in or out ?, or stay or go ? I am loosing track here. Is it yes we should stay, yes we should go.
this is easier --
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ
I was hoping in vain that was gonna be the Hokey Cokey, "You put your country in, your country out......" :)
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There is certainly a lot to consider and I hope people make an informed decision. Personally I don't think the UK would be better off leaving as they are still tied to Europe regardless so they would just lose the chance to effect change. There is certainly a lot of room for improvement in the EU. The question is not so much if you like it but if you prefer the alternative.
Also, many of the European institutions are far more progressive than those of the individual member states. As someone who works in conservation, I know that leaving the EU would result in the scrapping of lot of European environmental protection laws. Many of my friends who work in conservation in the UK are very worried about a possible exit as it will open the floodgates to countless developments in sensitive areas.
But that's just one aspect of it. More importantly I think that what Europe needs right now is unity and not separation. A British exit would play right into the hands of the far right, whether you like it or not. Divide and conquer as they say.
Interestingly, here in New Zealand the majority seems to favour a British exit. Kiwis have never forgiven the EU for stealing the Motherland from them. Ironically, there is an influx of Brits here, escaping a Britain that has been ruined by the EU and political correctness and searching for a bit of that colonial empire grandeur (luckily those pesky Maories are easy to ignore but sadly the Asians seem to be advancing it into the good neighbourhoods now).
Interesting times indeed.
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I'm from Germany and i really hope that the UK stays in the EU. The EU is not perfect, of course. But how can we expect anything else ? It is a community of 28 different countries with different cultures and different interests. Many of them were in war with each other for centuries. What is the alternative ? Going back to nationalism ? No cooperation instead of a difficult cooperation ? I'm convinced that a united Europe with problems is better than a separated Europe. There will be a lot of discussions about details until june. I think this is a referendum about something more important.
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Can we please change it from "yes or no" to - in or out ?, or stay or go ? I am loosing track here. Is it yes we should stay, yes we should go.
this is easier --
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ
I'm with ya there fella - it's getting a bit confusing already! I think we should plump for stay or go.
Good post from Johnz which illustrates quite nicely how this decision will affect SO MANY different areas of life. Are we sure we want to throw out stuff we never really knew we had? Then again, how much of this stuff do we really want/need? It would be interesting to see an independent list we could trust that laid out in black and white exactly what we are voting to keep/bin, because it all seems to be a bit hazy and vague for such a big collective decision.
Nice to read joerg's thoughts (Hello :)) and to get another non UK perspective and I have to say non-cooperation -vs- difficult cooperation is a good way of expressing the dilemma.
Drummyb also points out quite nicely how the European Court - just like every court we are bound by - looks after us as well as doing us over. Nothings perfect but do we truly want to throw out a way to challenge the decisions of a ideologically determined government (of whatever colour) ?
Have to say that seeing the bullshite photo-op drivel in the media does not fill me with optimism. FFS, T-shirts and razzle ? Feeling like a third rate half-time at an american football match rather than a profound decision on where this country wants to go.
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Maybe where and when Dave's 'red card ' will be used will swing my decision, fck 4 months of this I've just about recovered from the Scottish vote
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Looks like Crazy Boris (ain't he such a laugh? ???) has stabbed Davey Boy in the back...
Seems like Cameron is haemorrhaging support left right and centre...
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I would love for you guys to stay with us in this crazy EU thing. ;) That said, I have never been one for clubs and groups and stuff - so I do get why some will want to leave. It's certainly not like it's working very well right now...
The thing is, as has already been pointed out, that it's going to be very hard, to say the least, to make a really educated decision. People will be presented with a gazillion of "facts" and it will be so hard to really know which of them are facts indeed. I do wonder, given that UK companys will still want to do trade with EU companys (and vice versa) - is leaving really going to make such a big difference in the end? There are always conditions, rules, etc. - and maybe things won't change all that much anyway, psychologically, however, a break might really hurt - both sides.
I am not sure what my vote would look like, to be honest.
Anna has made a really good point, though...it could help to look at WHO it is that wants to leave the most...if those are the folks that you can't really trust, why now trust them on this issue and believe they have the country's best interest at heart. It's an interesting way to look at things.
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The problem inthe UK Stef is that we still have a small island, insular mentality. We're force fed "Great" Britain, failing to acknowledge everyone is proud of their country. We see Europe on holiday and thats it. Whereas from my recent Slovakia trip, the overlap of cultures was astonishing and wonderful We dont have that here and some dont want it sadly. Unless you live in London, which is more global,all the rest of the UK is fed on is Eastern Europe coming here and taking jobs/benefits.
:-\
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Its hard to work out exactly who to trust, do you trust one bunch of tory backstabbers' or another bunch of tory backstabbers , the labour party are a bit of joke and the snp have their own agenda, does Europe really want a independent Scotland anyway
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Simples : Trust no-one ;D
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So, did Mr Cameron, in PMQT, actually stoop so low as to insult Mr Corbyn as to what he was wearing? :o
The pig-botherer is rattled.
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Glad to see this discussed and hope that others join in. It is probably the most important decision Brits will make in a long time. There are so many interesting questions to ponder (ie. what about Scotland?) Do they want to leave? And what if they don't?
I can understand that people must be fed up with all the politics in Europe but now is not the time to be complacent. Like Anna said, take a look at who mostly advocates an exit. It's the right and far right and it's the same all over Europe.
If anyone had told me 5 years ago that the EU may be falling apart and Donald Trump may become president of the United States I would have laughed as hard as my grandfather did when some said to him in 1932 that Hitler would become chancellor and there would be another war...
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A mate and I had this chat at work yesterday. By November Trump could be president, the UK could be out of the EU and the world may be well on the way to being a very different place. And it could be argued that the extremists like ISIS are well on their way to achieving one of their goals to a more fragmented and less cooperative world. That's a cheery thought to start the day isn't it...
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So, did Mr Cameron, in PMQT, actually stoop so low as to insult Mr Corbyn as to what he was wearing? :o
The pig-botherer is rattled.
For fear that I again get accused of defending Cameron let me say first I think the guy is a slithery git. Ok.
But MR. do you not see the irony in posting how "low" it is that Cameron mentioning Corbyn is not wearing a tie (hardly a capital offence). And then you put the bit about "pig botherer". A story which if you read Private Eye for example, we know now that Elizabeth Oakshott (daughter of the odious Lord Oakshott liberal no mark and back stabber extraordinaire), made up.
Let us rise above methinks? :)
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The problem inthe UK Stef is that we still have a small island, insular mentality. We're force fed "Great" Britain, failing to acknowledge everyone is proud of their country. We see Europe on holiday and thats it. Whereas from my recent Slovakia trip, the overlap of cultures was astonishing and wonderful We dont have that here and some dont want it sadly. Unless you live in London, which is more global,all the rest of the UK is fed on is Eastern Europe coming here and taking jobs/benefits.
:-\
I think firstly you, as a lot of left leaning people do (Emma Thompson stand up please), are far too harsh about our country. I certainly do not recognise your description and I go all over the UK and elsewhere for work.
Are you saying that apart from London, which is what you said, the rest of us are all UKIP EU haters? Are we really? What about Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Bristol etc. Multicultural places all?
We are an island you are right of course. But as we are not attached to Europe as a landmass we do see ourselves in that fashion. I don't think that is wrong necessarily. In Europe you can transport yourself from country to country easily, a bit more difficult to swim the channel. :)
I think people are genuinely concern about numbers, that doesn't mean we are all jingoists or racists. Or even UKIPpers. Population is important, we all know it effects density, services and cheap labour can drive down wages.
It is NO shock that polls tell us that the leave vote is higher in ethnic minority communities here. As they bring an entrepreneurial instint with them. Are they "insular"? I don't think so.
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Anna has made a really good point, though...it could help to look at WHO it is that wants to leave the most...if those are the folks that you can't really trust, why now trust them on this issue and believe they have the country's best interest at heart. It's an interesting way to look at things.
An excellent post and I agree with it all, except this paragraph.
I think we must look at facts and data and not personalities. I really do not care who wants us to leave. In fact I could turn that around and say to you look at who wants us to stay. Cameron for one.
A lot of comments here take snipes at people, or talks about how "insular" we are. Or how shit the EU is. I think this is all chaff and we need to drown that all out and talk about the information. Ok it is subjective, it is difficult, but that is all we have.
For a person, as you all know ahem ;) , who usually has set views I'm really torn. I'm really not sure. My business does work with a lot of Spanish, Portuguese, German and other companies quite happily. In fact if we lived together as a unit as well as we work together there would be no problem. But I've a feeling I'm only going to make my mind up when I have the pencil in my hand to put the cross.
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Can we please change it from "yes or no" to - in or out ?, or stay or go ? I am loosing track here.
i agree, and i think that the confusion is deliberate.
personally (and i have only just started to seriously consider this issue ) i think we should stay in. undoubtedly keeping the £ (pound sterling) and rejecting the euro has -so far- turned out to be the correct decision. other than that i can't see any real benefts from being seperate from europe. our geographic situation as an island means that we can maintain our physical borders' security whilst politicallly keeping travel between here and the mainland as open as possible. whilst i appreciate that there are concerns among some with regard to immigration i can honestly say that -for me- the related scaremongering caused by the isolationists is the most worrying aspect of immigration. if you're coming here because you are searching for a better life then you are welcome as far as i'm concerned. end of.
chaos forgive me but i actually agree with cameron on one thing: the west faces a vast variety of serious threats from all over -this is a bad time to be breaking friendly ties with our neighbours and a bad time to fragment europe.
i will add other opinions as and when they occur to me. watch this space...
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I think we must look at facts and data and not personalities. I really do not care who wants us to leave. In fact I could turn that around and say to you look at who wants us to stay. Cameron for one.
You are absolutely right about that, of course - both, the need to look at facts and Cameron. ;)
The bit about the facts is going to be really hard - can't be helped, though - but what can you do?
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It is hard Stephanie I agree. The amount of crap that is thrown around by everyone is like wading through treacle to get at the core of the issue. But it is so important for us all I think.
The issue really is as I see it, removing the chaff a bit, is do we want to be part of an ever closer union with Europe or not. And by union we mean one state, subjugation of some/many of each countries national decision making into one amorphous mass. In essence the country would be called Europe.
Lots of people are worried about the concept of amorphous mass states. There is evidence for example that the US/Canada/Mexico want/wanted to form the NAU the North American Union and have....guess what...one currency. When elites want to herd currencies, countries, states into one block, alarm bells should sound. They do in my head anyway! :)
This is a stated aim of many of the countries. Britain never signed up for this. That is not being rude it is a fact. In fact I'm unaware that any other member was asked that either, but they do not seem as concerned which is fine. Now I'm not saying this is wrong, I'm not saying we have had treaties our weaselly politicians signed up to that didn't ratify the ever closer policy. But it seems to matter to us for a multiplicity of reasons. So we want a vote.
My feeling is that we will stay in and I think that vote will not be as close as people think. For example only 11% of 18 to 29s want to leave. And that is fine, that is democracy.
For me, people like Cameron, Gove, Corbyn, gulp Galloway are a complete irrelevance to me. They don't run my business or family, they will still have their nailed on cushy career politicians salary and pension to look forward to. So I think we must look at data on how it will effect us.
IF we go, and I do not think we will, there seems to be some sort of thought that we hate Europe. I believe the complete opposite and we still will be part of Europe. Trade will continue, because that is its nature. We will still be friends. We must still cooperate for security for all. We share so many values between us that will continue.
ps I know what some of you are thinking. Bloody ldopas doesn't post for a month and now we cannot shut the bugger up! ;)
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Firstly I hope your well idopas.
For me the problem is being ruled by Brussels , I'm all for free trade, open boarders, working together for the greater good of everyone. I think were being driven apart by stupid rules that doesn't suit this country and many others. Surprised that nobody has mentioned that Europe costs us £55 million everyday
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As Pol says being ran by unelected unaccountable commisioners in Brussels that is also my problem.
The EU is a runaway train that will sooner or later crash better to get off now.
I doubt we as a country will leave as people are normally scared of change and the general public seem to believe most of the stuff peddled by the media in turn steered by the powers that be.
This is a good presentation for the Out/NO camp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eatfmjCDyWI
A decent read.
http://peterjnorth.blogspot.de/2016/02/the-concise-brexit-arguments.html
And this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5YqVmQAhQ8
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Some of the rules EU set different years ago in Finland was sheer idiotism like when they prohibited Finland manufacturing tar. It showed they were unaware about different purposes that tar is used in industry (f.e. buildings, coatings, and also pastils for consumption etc.). They considered all forms of tar poisonous (which it's not). Well, they withdrew their stance and admitted being wrong and unaware. That's ok if they can quickly change their views and give special privileges for some nations.
Because of EU the production of chicken eggs suffered a serious conclusion. Production of milk faced nearly the same but is allowed if herd sizes are very large (approx. 60 heads) that is rather a factory than a farm. Production of sugar has dropped also very much. How much these are because of EU or just plain competitiveness is another question.
I think that following of some of political parties have grown large due to EU (populists especially). First they're against the institution, next they're using it themselves. There are rightwing maggots as MEPs today.
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The problem inthe UK Stef is that we still have a small island, insular mentality. We're force fed "Great" Britain, failing to acknowledge everyone is proud of their country. We see Europe on holiday and thats it. Whereas from my recent Slovakia trip, the overlap of cultures was astonishing and wonderful We dont have that here and some dont want it sadly. Unless you live in London, which is more global,all the rest of the UK is fed on is Eastern Europe coming here and taking jobs/benefits.
:-\
I think firstly you, as a lot of left leaning people do (Emma Thompson stand up please), are far too harsh about our country. I certainly do not recognise your description and I go all over the UK and elsewhere for work.
Are you saying that apart from London, which is what you said, the rest of us are all UKIP EU haters? Are we really? What about Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Bristol etc. Multicultural places all?
We are an island you are right of course. But as we are not attached to Europe as a landmass we do see ourselves in that fashion. I don't think that is wrong necessarily. In Europe you can transport yourself from country to country easily, a bit more difficult to swim the channel. :)
I think people are genuinely concern about numbers, that doesn't mean we are all jingoists or racists. Or even UKIPpers. Population is important, we all know it effects density, services and cheap labour can drive down wages.
It is NO shock that polls tell us that the leave vote is higher in ethnic minority communities here. As they bring an entrepreneurial instint with them. Are they "insular"? I don't think so.
Firstly I was generalising about the right wing media in the opening line. I equally loathe the jingoistic use of "Great" Britain. I dont hate my country, but I dont equally think it is any better or worse than anyone elses. Do you disagree with a concern that people think we are better out of Europe and if so why are we bothering with a referendum if the UK is all shiny happy? Secondly, I suggest you havent been to the areas I have, which are very insular and suspicious. If we are this welcoming, multicultural island, I suggest you visit Handsworth in Birmingham or even Wisbech in Cambridgeshire. Suspicion and fear is in abundance. Similarily, Lye in the West Midlands where the Asian community are currently squabbling with the Romanians. Kingswinford, an affluent area, crammed with Daily Express readers and the fear of Johnny Foreigner. Just small English towns with different underlying tensions. Id suggest that is far, far removed from the business environment you operate in. I dont proclaim to speak for everyone, just my own experiences and observations. And from that and what the Right Wing press prints, tends not to support Europe as a concept. Yeah possibly I lean left but equally Im likely to support a right Right idea. Isnt it interesting though as a supposed left winger, I see the problems of multi-culture and as a supposed right winger, you see the benefits? In truth, im willing to accept the middle ground. I like the idea of people coming in but accept it brings benefits and problems. Ukiper????? ;D
I agree that the population numbers game has baring. Not quite sure why you think I would think everyone is a UKIP EU hater. Clearly not, or UKIP would be forming a government. I do beleive that a lot of suspicion about Europe is peddled. Me personally, im equally torn. I can see the pluses and minuses. If i thought for a moment, and part of me does, that without Europe, Cameron and co, or even a Labour Government would run amok unchecked by Europe law makers, Id tick to stay without hesitation. But for every close the border argument, we then lose a lot of information being shared. I dont actually beleive trade/business will be hugely affected whether we stay or go. People will always buy or sell.
Im glad however you recognised I was right about us being an island. I saw a picture of it on a map ;)
Finally, hope youre better :)
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Read an interesting article while bored at work today which I feel draws out some salient points.
"..... There are plenty of intrepid souls out there who pore haplessly over facts and figures, many of which are conveniently presented to virtually cancel each other out, but mostly, swathes of the country probably do feel thoroughly disconnected from the issue, because they're unable to tell what a Brexit or a Brstay really means for them"
I think this is hugely important. So much of what I'm reading focuses on things that feel remote from daily life, seemingly for "the city", politicians and the omnipotent amorphous business class. But all of that does filter down into a real impact. It's not remote.
"...Because it does mean something. It is worth "common folk" forming a strong opinion on it. How will it affect your job, your wallet, your hospital, your doctor's surgery, your local cafe, your favourite restaurant, your holiday, your weekend break, your foreign business trip, your German, Italian or Slovakian friend who lives round the corner, your foreign property, your children's worldview, your opinion of the UK's position on the planet? Because the EU Referendum will affect all of those things, very deeply. If, hand on your heart, you claim to not give a shit about any of them, good luck to you. But forgive me if I don't believe you."
This starts to get to the heart of things. The examples given are very real issues that will be affected by the eventual decision.
".....need more clued-up people to give their view, and I'm not talking about journalists and politicians. We need artists, business owners, filmmakers, doctors, lawyers, musicians, actors, market researchers, scientists, IT consultants, chefs, lorry drivers, police officers, and dozens of other professionals I haven't thought of, to come out and say how they think an In or Out vote will affect their day to day existence"
Some clever sod came up with the knowledge is power quote and that's what we need. Not spin, not the cries from self-interested groups and certainly not the manouvering machinations of politicians jostling for pre-eminence at the next general election. I don't give a monkeys about the next leader of the tory party, I don't care if Corbyn will still be the leader of the labour party. That has nothing to do with this, it's bigger than the charade of party politics.
Oh, full article here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/tim-thornton/david-baddiel-brexit_b_9315230.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
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My school closes for the referendum vote.
:)
I still have to go in though.
:(
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My school closes for the referendum vote.
:)
I still have to go in though.
:(
Bloody Europe!!! ;D
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Read an interesting article while bored at work today which I feel draws out some salient points.
"..... There are plenty of intrepid souls out there who pore haplessly over facts and figures, many of which are conveniently presented to virtually cancel each other out, but mostly, swathes of the country probably do feel thoroughly disconnected from the issue, because they're unable to tell what a Brexit or a Brstay really means for them"
I think this is hugely important. So much of what I'm reading focuses on things that feel remote from daily life, seemingly for "the city", politicians and the omnipotent amorphous business class. But all of that does filter down into a real impact. It's not remote.
"...Because it does mean something. It is worth "common folk" forming a strong opinion on it. How will it affect your job, your wallet, your hospital, your doctor's surgery, your local cafe, your favourite restaurant, your holiday, your weekend break, your foreign business trip, your German, Italian or Slovakian friend who lives round the corner, your foreign property, your children's worldview, your opinion of the UK's position on the planet? Because the EU Referendum will affect all of those things, very deeply. If, hand on your heart, you claim to not give a shit about any of them, good luck to you. But forgive me if I don't believe you."
This starts to get to the heart of things. The examples given are very real issues that will be affected by the eventual decision.
".....need more clued-up people to give their view, and I'm not talking about journalists and politicians. We need artists, business owners, filmmakers, doctors, lawyers, musicians, actors, market researchers, scientists, IT consultants, chefs, lorry drivers, police officers, and dozens of other professionals I haven't thought of, to come out and say how they think an In or Out vote will affect their day to day existence"
Some clever sod came up with the knowledge is power quote and that's what we need. Not spin, not the cries from self-interested groups and certainly not the manouvering machinations of politicians jostling for pre-eminence at the next general election. I don't give a monkeys about the next leader of the tory party, I don't care if Corbyn will still be the leader of the labour party. That has nothing to do with this, it's bigger than the charade of party politics.
Oh, full article here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/tim-thornton/david-baddiel-brexit_b_9315230.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
Some good points there Anna. It's also important to remember that the EU was born out of the horrors of WW2. It's primary goal was to prevent another war within Europe. As such it was a genuine peace keeping mission rather than a business model. So for the most part I would say it has been very successful although there is obviously considerable room for improvement.
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Can I just raise another point... these newspaper opinions from 'experts' ::)... aren't they complete subjectiveness? This is completely uncharted territory! The pound collapsing if the UK leaves the EU? Nobody will want to trade with us anymore (you know, the fifth richest country in the world)? Yes, we've heard from the banking industry that it won't be a good thing... yup, I trust them fools every step of the way after the solid and beneficial work they've done... not to mention politicians who already have one foot riding on the EU 'after political retirement' gravy train... ;D
No major country - and YES, the UK is a major country! - has ever quit the utter mess that is the EU. Who is to say that it won't be a great thing for the UK, lead to other countries quitting and therefore an immense reformation that might, in a decade or so, lead back to countries coming back together on far better terms that the utter arse-twattery that is the EU nowadays, lessons having being learnt in the meantime?
Pie in the sky, I know, but here's hoping.
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Can I just raise another point... these newspaper opinions from 'experts' ::)... aren't they complete subjectiveness? This is completely uncharted territory! The pound collapsing if the UK leaves the EU? Nobody will want to trade with us anymore (you know, the fifth richest country in the world)? Yes, we've heard from the banking industry that it won't be a good thing... yup, I trust them fools every step of the way after the solid and beneficial work they've done... not to mention politicians who already have one foot riding on the EU 'after political retirement' gravy train... ;D
No major country - and YES, the UK is a major country! - has ever quit the utter mess that is the EU. Who is to say that it won't be a great thing for the UK, lead to other countries quitting and therefore an immense reformation that might, in a decade or so, lead back to countries coming back together on far better terms that the utter arse-twattery that is the EU nowadays, lessons having being learnt in the meantime?
Pie in the sky, I know, but here's hoping.
I think the possible downsides of an exit are likely as exaggerated as the supposed burden that the EU represents. Business will go on one way or another. An exit would primarily be a symbolic gesture that says 'our differences are greater than our similarities'. As such it would inevitably lead to some cooling off of relations on a personal level. I think that would be a shame.
It's much the same as a Scottish exit from the UK which is also one of the more likely outcomes of a Brexit. Interestingly, it seems that many of the English in favour of a Brexit also oppose a Scottish exit from the UK (some slight double standards there I think).
Lastly, like any government, the EU fulfils a fantastic scapegoat function. Most people are fairly unaware of their own governments dealings outside of what they read in the papers. With the EU, it's even worse as most people haven't got a clue what it actually is an can and cannot do. It's also unlikely that people will bother to educate themselves between now and June so the vote will be based on emotive issues which may or may not be true.
No different from most elections anywhere, I guess
As someone who is watching all this unfold from half a world away I can't help but worry about the developments in Europe. I just can't see how more division can be a good thing. I hope I'm wrong.
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Interestingly, it seems that many of the English in favour of a Brexit also oppose a Scottish exit from the UK (some slight double standards there I think).
Bit one way being rude to the English? :) Let us also not forget that the people in Scotland who wanted to break away from the UK seem to be the most rabid in wanting to keep us in the EU. Double standards as well!
PS. Those who gave me good wishes for recovery in this thread. I thank you. Recovery is still slow, but I'm still wearing the cardio vest and in two weeks go back to see if an implant is needed and the vest can go...or I can start official cardio rehab with no op and no vest. Thanks for your best wishes. It is slow, but I am walking for an hour each day now and of course I never stopped working from home (don't tell the medics). The biggest issue as you would guess is mental. I think I am strong, but any ache, strain or gurgle and I think cardiac arrest is about to happen again and I'm toast. Time will heal that I hope!. Thanks for your best wishes, they do make a difference.
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Fingers crossed that the vest can go and an op won't be necessary, either. :)
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Gotta to totally disagree with your Scottish point idopas , firstly its two separate issues and independence seeking Scots want to be part of Europe. The difference is Scotland could set its own future path as a independent European member. I would say how I'm going to vote since you made me out to be a liar on my independence vote
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I'll be voting to stay IN the EU.
All the best,
Johnny
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Head says stay, heart says leave.
Well today it does who knows what'll be by June.
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Gotta to totally disagree with your Scottish point idopas , firstly its two separate issues and independence seeking Scots want to be part of Europe. The difference is Scotland could set its own future path as a independent European member. I would say how I'm going to vote since you made me out to be a liar on my independence vote
So it is exactly the same thing when English voters who wanted to keep Scotland with us, but want out of the EU. But completely different the other way round when it is Scottish voters? You lost me there. It is the same issue.
I'm sorry you've lost me on the independence vote and making you out to be a liar. In what context?
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http://velvetgloveironfist.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/the-eu-shows-its-contempt-for-vapers.html?m=1
Make your own minds up
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Yes, stay, in.
No, don't leave, not out.
H
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http://velvetgloveironfist.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/the-eu-shows-its-contempt-for-vapers.html?m=1
Make your own minds up
The question is whether a more localized government would do it differently. Here in NZ a packet of cigarettes costs 12 pounds and I'm sure vaping is pretty expensive too. It's just seen as easy tax money so I doubt any government would view it differently.
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Your probably right johnz , but its not about vaping its about a bunch of people who none of us voted for imposing laws in sneaky underhand way. At least with uk laws you get a chance to protest, and amendments can be made , and at least some of your fellow citizens voted for them in the first place.
Where is the democracy in eu and to think we pay £55 million for this every day
We gotta take the power back
I could easily quit vaping, I'm already at 3mg strength nicotine, I just want smokers to be given the same opportunity I was
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I have a feeling that Francois Hollande's warning will only build more resentment if youre in the leave camp. However its a legitimate point. Without EU treaties, we arent privvy to any agreements and in effect govern our own borders. Sounds ideal but given the hundreds of thousands that have vanished and my own dealings with immigration officials, Im not convinced they are currently empowered to deal effectively. Interesting times.
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I'm reading some news about Ireland and Scotland taking opposing stances to what UK have. What do you folks feel there, is your own stance common in your lands compared to a generalized view or do you disagree with it?
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Its generally perceived that Scotland wants to remain in Europe, every Scottish mp is pro Europe and I think nearly all msp's are also pro Europe. Talking to people I feel most are actually unsure what it all means , others what to stay and quite a few what to leave. Me I think I've made my feelings clear.
Other issue, In the last Scottish elections the snp had a policy in its manifesto of minimum pricing on alcohol and of course they won with a large majority yet the democratic wish of the Scottish people for minimum prices on alcohol was denied by the European Parliament and of course they were well backed by the big drinks companies.
Yet again profits before health !
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Must admit, losing interest in the "debate" which mostly seems to be "my dad is bigger than yours" nothingness. But I do pick up the idea that yes/no doesn't relate to party loyalties or national identity. It really does seem that it's mixed across the board and you could have a tory alongside a labour supporter alongside a SNP member in either camp. I've not noticed any reporting on the feeling in Northern Ireland, I wonder how an out vote would affect things over there?
Thought this piece by Mark Steel in The Independent the other day was quite amusing:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-negotiations-is-there-some-way-we-can-make-both-sides-lose-this-referendum-a6883441.html
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTv7UoK8oJY&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0rj2DWwFBU&ebc=ANyPxKqkcI9vmaLv1V06f0BQSVFBEOYjiwdITob7k3rXdlf4HBhux9BTy1dTxvDUhLksFPSaf1RZAxntFD6GYThHz3iQjoXpVQ
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Thought this piece by Mark Steel in The Independent the other day was quite amusing:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-negotiations-is-there-some-way-we-can-make-both-sides-lose-this-referendum-a6883441.html
That just made me laugh!
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I think that following of some of political parties have grown large due to EU (populists especially). First they're against the institution, next they're using it themselves. There are rightwing maggots as MEPs today.
That is a good point. But do you think that an end of the EU would see the populist parties lose popularity? I really don't know.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSU-Axfe8pE
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So, IDS has quit his job...
What's the betting that, within a few days, he'll be coming out as pro-EU exit?
::)
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I thought ids was already for out. And on the ids I would like to say well done just goes to show how bad Cameron and Osborne are taking from the disabled to give to the middle class that even a nasty piece of work ( no pun intended) would quit in protest.
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I thought ids was already for out. And on the ids I would like to say well done just goes to show how bad Cameron and Osborne are taking from the disabled to give to the middle class that even a nasty piece of work ( no pun intended) would quit in protest.
Fully agree with the nasty piece of work. Norman Tebbit for the 2000's but without the spine.
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It's the millennium bug/Revelations/mad American 'end of the world' cultist bullsh!t laid out on a ballot paper. Put your cross in whichever box you choose. You'll see no real difference whatever the outcome!
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The worst thing you can do is not to put your cross in a box that way fck all will change for sure.
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It's the millennium bug/Revelations/mad American 'end of the world' cultist bullsh!t laid out on a ballot paper. Put your cross in whichever box you choose. You'll see no real difference whatever the outcome!
Really? I beg to differ. If it is an out, there will be a shitload of difference, some good, some bad. Seeing how a lot of our treaties and agreements would be null and void. That is a difference.
It is OK I think to be shoegazingly negative about voting either way on some of the other things you mentioned, but not this.
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The worst thing you can do is not to put your cross in a box that way fck all will change for sure.
Completely agree! We may disagree on many things, but if you don't vote or even bother to bugger up your ballot as a "protest" as far as I'm concerned people have not got the right to comment!
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The worst thing you can do is not to put your cross in a box that way fck all will change for sure.
Completely agree! We may disagree on many things, but if you don't vote or even bother to bugger up your ballot as a "protest" as far as I'm concerned people have not got the right to comment!
Agree with both of these points but I'd also agree with someone taking the standpoint of refusing to engage in the whole charade :)
I'm still inclined towards staying in but not a confirmed "remainer". I'e yet to a read anything which tells me what a Britain outside the EU would actually look like. What does a stand alone Britain look like to the rest of the world? Where does it fit in?
A little bunch of islands off the north western coast of Europe going it alone may be brave but it could also be stupid. For instance, if we still want trade with the EU following an exit we will still have to abide by their trade rules and I suspect that the costs of doing business as a non-member will be higher. Workers rights are another thing - who is going to regulate these post exit? Unfettered by any constraint how far might a government be prepared to go in the name of business? Habitat conservation, environmental protection, "green " issues more generally - again, what provision is made for these post exit, how strong would those safeguards really be?
I accept many of the arguments regarding flaws in the EU but I don't get any sense of what is being offered post exit
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Some very interesting points Anna , firstly is it all a charade - yes were all pissed off with it but democracy should always be embraced.
Nobody knows for sure what things will be like if we leave. We import a lot more than we export so surely it in the other European countries to do a deal quickly. Surely employment and other rights can be fought for can't see any government trying to take holidays redundancy payments etc away without a massive fight.
Would green issues be affected that much ? - Currently our fishing boats are sitting in the harbour for environmental reason whilst boats from other countries are fishing there waters - how is that protecting fish
Why can't our shops sell goods in imperial measures if they want
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OK, this is pure conjecture on my part but...
The EU seems to be a in a hell of a mess and, much as I would like to, I can't see it getting any better. I'd go as far as to say the next couple of years will possibly / probably see enormous problems, especially if the hugely unstable Turkey is allowed in (yet they seem to be being fast-tracked, for no good reason that I can see!)
Wouldn't a hugely rich economy like the UK (fifth largest in the world!) become MORE attractive to potential investors if shit goes south in the EU and we had already beaten the rush and left early? Boeing just announced that they're setting up European investment in the UK. These people aren't thick, they've got their $$$s in mind. Surely others will follow? I do understand that there might be an initial wobble, the pound going weak against the Euro etc in retaliation for us having the nerve to leave, but it might be better in the long run? Especially if the multitude of problems in the EU get escalated, further and further...
As I said, it's my own silly conjecture, I don't claim to be an expert in politics or economics, but no more so than the predictions that others are making about what will happen to the UK in the face of something that has NEVER happened before.
Feel free to shoot me down on this.
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I cant really agree with it being a charade. To my mind its the principle of home rule and legislation or sovereign powers being delegated from a group of Nations. I think its very important.
No-one knows the outcome of coming out. The outcome of staying in is we stay as we are. Treaties etc can be renegotiated however and ultimately we stand on our own. I dont think we'll go back to workhouses and no electricity if we come out. We'll just go our own way. Same as those on the edges of Europe or any other Super state make their own decisions.
Im still not sure where im going.
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Maybe if we do decide to leave, it will make work harder, show more pride in the UK , have that feeling that your doing it for a more localized good
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I think that in the event of an exit vote, there will be new treaties, New trade agreements. Money talks. Where one door closes, another will open. Whatever the outcome, it will make no real difference to us ordinary souls.
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I used the word charade in my usual wafty wavy arm about way to indicate a nod to the idea of voter impotence and our ability to really change anything, after all someone said " if voting changed anything, they would make it illegal" : :( true. I wan't really specifically referring to this particular electorate question.
The examples I used for questions about what comes after were maybe not framed too eloquently. But questions is what they where. They weren't certainties, they weren't my polemic. Things I wondered about that this centralised polar debate don't ask.Workers rights are something I can quite easily see being voraciously ripped away by any party in thrall to the wet dream of actually being inside No. 10 (oh and it ain't all that - been there, seen it and I didn't buy the t shirt >:() Money talks and business rules and it's money/business that gets a government in power why will a brexit change that? And without some form of restraint via the EU (however flawed and in thrall to the same demons) where is the benefit to me and mine? As for green issues, these are areas of significant concern to me and these are issues relating to the eco-sphere which do not recognize or adopt arbitrary national boundaries. Without the EU the situation could be far worse than it is now. And given a choice between a bit of venture capital paying off or national park being left un-mined which way do you think things will go ?
I didn't make predictions, I wasn't claiming expertise, I was thinking a bit beyond daily express headlines and raising questions that occurred to me about something that will actually have quite a serious impact on the lives of us in the UK. And whilst those of us who where old enough had a voice and got thier say in joining, we've NEVER been asked about leaving before. Seems a good idea to ponder first.
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I've been far away from nb for a long time and just back.The subject is interesting.First,I agree with Master Ray at some points, being a turkish person.Eu in a mess,it could be clearly seen.Now they say they will take us in and will pay for that and send back the huge part of refugees to here türkiye.Seems like a deal is done.I personally don't care if we're in eu or not.But it is hard for me to believe that we will be accepted.just watching talks,news etc.
But looking at UK from outside,in my opinion UK was UK already before and after EU.But that is my opinion as I said.The people who live in UK may think different of course..I can't know what may outcome bring but all thoughts shared here are really interesting and touching good points.(excuse my poor english)
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.(excuse my poor english)
None needed friend - better than our poor Turkish huh? Think it's great all other nationalities joining the conversation, a good reminder that it's not just about UK - Europe is bigger than that :)
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Over to you anna. "bete noir" youre much more clever than I can ever be
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My French is ONE BEER. oh dear....
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Yeah. One is never enough.
Anna im with you fully on workers rights being stripped. One good thing to come from the EU
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http://www.cityam.com/237301/the-cbi-has-admitted-defeat-and-the-economic-case-against-brexit-is-collapsing
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Thanks for posting, sadly due to events else where this probably won't make the news
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I don't think the rest of the EU give two hoots whether we're in or out.
They must be so tired of Cameron's 'special status for Britain' bullkaka.
That way that he looks purposefully at the camera declaring that he's 'Battling for Britain,' before purposefully striding away to claim each disappointing compromise as some great victory.
And Gideons masterstroke bastard reverse Robin Hood budget last week. He's not even tried to disguise his contempt for the little people. If you were in any doubt about this government's attitude to the poor and sick, you can be in no further doubt now.
When IDS becomes your party's Jimminy Cricket, something has gone badly awry.
The 'Should I Stay Or Should I Go' EU vote is only a smokescreen.
We should be asking ourselves the question of how we are going to tackle the poverty, how we are going to look after the sick and lesser abled in our society and in society in general, but in truth it has to start at home.
We appear to have lost our way. It doesn't matter if the guidance comes from the EU or if as I hope, the scales are beginning to fall from the eyes of the many and for the first time, people are seeing this government for what it really is and that this is the beginning of their end and that next time around, we get something that has a social conscience and is prepared to make real changes for the good.
In or out of Europe, we're still a way away from where we should be.
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I totally agree with everything you said peter , I know its a bit of a different debate imo the problem is that there isn't a credible alternative to vote for that going to win enough seats to form a government.
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Actually, the EU really wants the UK to stay. The reasons are obvious: a Brexit confirms the project's failure and it will only add strength to the arguments against held by other Euro-sceptic parties in the EU member states. There is little doubt that the EU will be much weaker without the UK. Just imagine if Germany or France were to leave!
The ideas of the EU before 1995 when it was the EEC (European Economic Community) were admirable enough. I'm all for greater economic co-operation and easier trade; I don't favour economic integration. However, from the late 1980s, when the agenda increasingly switched to political and monetary union, the ‘idea’ has become more bloated and tiresome. Europe is not, and has never been, a political or monetary union. It has a very poor track record in solving its own wars and economic problems. The American had to bail Europe out three times alone in the last century. The Euro is a disaster and something into which the UK should never enter. How can the PIIGS operate in the same currency as Germany and The Netherlands when there are such divergent practices and interests? Europe cannot even co-ordinate EUROPOL – never mind the idea of a unified Europe in political terms. Moreover, a rapid expansion from 12 countries to 28 in the space of approximately 20 years has just created a greater, bloated bureaucracy with less – not more – accountability and freedom. If you want democracy, don't go against EU directives (See Ireland with The Treaty of Rome as an example).
If the EU is so great, why do the richer countries like Norway and Switzerland want nothing to do with membership? They certainly thrive on their own without the EU. Do you mean to tell me that the UK could not survive on its own when it is in a position to negotiate its own trade deals with countries who have better economies? Has someone told Australia they need such a bloc to avoid recession and become stronger? David Ricardo would be spinning in his grave if only he knew the musings.
If the UK decides to stay, then further political and economic integration will be applied regardless. Refusal of the Euro will not be tolerated long-term.
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What is the currency in Dubrovnik?
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Blimey, that thing about The Tories shoving an Pro - EU friendly booklet into everyone in the UK's letterboxes over the next couple of months... THAT'S not weighing everything in favour of the 'STAY IN' vote... ::)
Regardless or whether you're IN or OUT, you gotta admit, that's loading the odds WELL in favour of Ham-Moron's vote of choice...
:-\
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Think its a scandal that pro euro leaflets are being posted at our expense. Had to laugh when Dave said it was the governments opinion, lol half the tory party want to leave.
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Im all up for leaflets. I never have enough junk mail.
Seriously, I think presenting figures and costs is useful but also think the leaflets should reflect both sides of the argument so people can make an informed decision. As opposed to fear and hysteria.
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Its not a leaflet!! Its a booklet. Ours arrived today. Im not sure it says anything that isnt already out there and maybe might sway a percentage of people without a counter argument. I dont want to give away any spoilers, but the plot line is: this is what we have. We dont know what we'll have if we leave but it might be costly *cue theme tune from Insidious.
One the plus its very glossy.
Of course Im being tongue in cheek. I think with what is a monumental decision, its right the Government gives its side. Cost wise, I dont know if it would be cheaper to find another way, but hey what do I know.
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Its not a leaflet!! Its a booklet. Ours arrived today. Im not sure it says anything that isnt already out there and maybe might sway a percentage of people without a counter argument. I dont want to give away any spoilers, but the plot line is: this is what we have. We dont know what we'll have if we leave but it might be costly *cue theme tune from Insidious.
One the plus its very glossy.
Of course Im being tongue in cheek. I think with what is a monumental decision, its right the Government gives its side. Cost wise, I dont know if it would be cheaper to find another way, but hey what do I know.
I think that my point is... where's the equivalent of a counter argument?
I think I'm a fairly reasonable and open-minded kind of fella, but the argument seems to be definitely loaded in favour of Camerons preferred choice...
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Totally agree with ray , there should have been two booklets sent out one for each side of the argument, were meant to be democracy. Would have preferred no booklets /leaflets tbh #straighttowheelybin lol
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Would have preferred no booklets /leaflets tbh #straighttowheelybin lol
Don't - regardless of which way you'll vote, send it back to the attn. Joanna George, Freepost RSBB-XRZT-ZTXE, the conservative party foundation, 30 Millbank, London SW1P 4DP instead; you get to help our nice post service AND the toryscum get billed for the privilege, what's not to like? :D
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Would have preferred no booklets /leaflets tbh #straighttowheelybin lol
Don't - regardless of which way you'll vote, send it back to Freepost RSBB-XRZT-ZTXE, the conservative party foundation, 30 Millbank, London SW1P 4DP instead; you get to help our nice post service AND the toryscum get billed for the privilege, what's not to like? :D
I like the way you're thinking, sir....
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Its not a leaflet!! Its a booklet. Ours arrived today. Im not sure it says anything that isnt already out there and maybe might sway a percentage of people without a counter argument. I dont want to give away any spoilers, but the plot line is: this is what we have. We dont know what we'll have if we leave but it might be costly *cue theme tune from Insidious.
One the plus its very glossy.
Of course Im being tongue in cheek. I think with what is a monumental decision, its right the Government gives its side. Cost wise, I dont know if it would be cheaper to find another way, but hey what do I know.
I think that my point is... where's the equivalent of a counter argument?
I think I'm a fairly reasonable and open-minded kind of fella, but the argument seems to be definitely loaded in favour of Camerons preferred choice...
No I quite agree. The leave campaign should have been given an equal avenue to put their side, as Ive said earlier. I do beleive a large percentage of people are open minded about it. I am starting to lean towards the remain side, not because of todays gumph, but because I feel, the benefits outweigh the costs, particularily with free movement and employment legislation. Its far from perfect, but nothing ever is. Next week who knows how Ill feel
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Damn, the Tories are really cranking up the anti-exit sentiments now! £36 billion in tax receipts lost in the UK exit? 8p rise in income tax? This, from a man like Osbourne, who promised to bring down the deficit by the end of this year but has now put back the deadline until the end of the decade, assuming the Tories last that long... the man can't be trusted with financial concepts, his defeat at the last budget proved it!
It's all conjecture and scare-mongering... NOBODY knows what will happen if the UK leaves the EU!
Again, I don't claim to be an economic or political brain wizard, I'm sure finer minds than mine can back me up or shoot me down... and I welcome that! But the way this argument is, undoubtably, the biggest issue of the year, if not for something that will resonate for decades to come, is being loaded in favour of one opinion with hyperbole... makes me a bit angry. >:(
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Anders Breivik wins his case in the European court of human rights - when the fck did he became human - enough said - get me out
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(http://i.imgur.com/eGWYsMnl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/T18UhQm.gif)
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Anders Breivik wins his case in the European court of human rights - when the fck did he became human - enough said - get me out
And Norway isn't in the EU... cos what the daily fascist won't tell you is that the European Court of Human Rights is NOT an EU court, it predates it and Britain is a signatory since 1949 (it's called European because it refers to Europe), so us leaving won't necessarily make any difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily advocating staying in - I pretty much don't give a shit if we stay or go in fact, just enjoying very much the tory scum ripping each other to shreds over the matter and hoping the damage they do to each other will last very long.
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Interesting aside. Google, that company that everyone uses and as a result, have the ability to force feed its products, is currently being rounded on by the EU for stifling its competition. I applaud that. Im all up for successful business but not one that dictates what others can or cant do.
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did like that picture Markxe :)
A farcical mummers play. Half truths and made up nonsense all round. Osbourne and his algebra: really?
One side wants to take us back in time to some supposed golden period of British magnificence, the other says there is only one way forward or we'll all be dirty little dickensian ragamuffins eating coal.
Won't be in the country and won't be voting.
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http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/live-from-the-london-palladium-the-spectators-brexit-debate/
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http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/live-from-the-london-palladium-the-spectators-brexit-debate/
Interesting reading, I'll digest those thoughts for a while...
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Listen to the speeches Daniel Hannan really is good.
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its a game
you can't drop out of the client state market system. even if the people want to. in the aftermath of an exit conditions would be such that subordination of the UK to world markets would be certainty.
has anyone got any sources of decent independent opinion on this?
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Is it true that Boris Johnson had claimed that the EU had banned bunches of more than 3 bananas? As an example of how the EU regulates stuff? :o A UK friend of mine shared something to that extent. If it were true (that he had made such a claim) it would be a really stupid thing to lie about...*shakes head* Just curious. ::)
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Unfortunately it is true ............
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-claims-eu-stops-bananas-being-sold-in-bunches-of-more-than-three-that-is-not-true_uk_573b2445e4b0f0f53e36c968
Quality debate .............
:(
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As discussed over the weekend Anna , Boris playing the lovable idiot card once again, I mean that's all very well but he could be our prime minister, oh well Donald and Boris could team up and take us places - nuclear oblivion most likely imo .
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Interesting how The Pig-Botherer picks and chooses who he can have a debate with...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-UbT0g9A8c
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCATXCgC0kSWQDOQLtgP5Mbg
https://www.youtube.com/embed/ggNHiJd4tZ4
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-UbT0g9A8c
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCATXCgC0kSWQDOQLtgP5Mbg
https://www.youtube.com/embed/ggNHiJd4tZ4
Nice clips, thanks for that.
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Well its May 20th and the tpd for vaping ( tobacco products directive) starts across the eu. For those of us in the UK we won't notice much difference for now apart from no more advertising in print or on radio or television. This is due to the UK government including a 1 year period for non tpd compliant products to be phased out. Come next May only tanks with a 2ml capacity will be able to be sold. The maximum size for e liquid bottles will be 10ml with a maximum nicotine strength of 20mg . Yes I'm very aware that the UK government has been very lenient compared to some other member states.
Anyway none of us voted for this, it wasn't on any party manifesto or even discussed in parliament. Very much like lots of laws.
Lets be thankful I don't live in the usa when you see what the fda are trying to do over there
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Incredible isn't it. Should I go back to smoking, will that make them happy.
We have freedom. The freedom to be told what to do and how to live out lives >:(
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The biggest hypocrisy is the government has spent years and millions of pounds trying to get people quit smoking then something comes along not controlled by them or there back handers mates in pharmaceutical companies and when millions actually do quit they crap themselves and try and kill it off . Problem is its too late, its grown too large were not passive smokers anyway that lie down and take it. We have turned into passionate people with a cause.
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Reading a lot of the posts here, I think a lot of us are getting our hatred for a political party or leader mixed up with the issue of whether we should leave or stay in the EU imo. Loathing for Cameron, Boris, Corbyn, Clegg etc is not the issue. Long after this cast have retired to the Lords we will still be left with the legacy of how we voted. Can we not remove ourselves from party dogma and how we vote in a normal election to discuss the issues.
It is difficult to get information. But understanding that the Mirror, Indi, Guardian and Huffington are left wing and will chip away at the right, and the Sun, Express, Mail etc will do the same to the left. Reading around facts, past decisions and in the end our personal belief on whether it will/not help with immigration, will/wont help the economy and so on is going to be down to us I think personally!
In the end this land has survived the blitz, WW1, Armadas, famine, despots, Romans, Vikings, more crisis that we can remember and come through, so I think we will all survive whatever the vote! :)
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Personally I m leaning towards out , yes I've been called a militant leftist before and sadly I'm on the side of that fck wit Boris and then nasty animal mick gove. Immigration has nothing to do with my vote. I'm sure trade will work its self out. What grinds my gears is meps making bad decisions - undemocratic decisions , yes British democracy might not be the best but at least its kinda there
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How will the cost of a packet of fags, a pint of beer and tickets to gigs be effected?
Whatever the outcome. I'm sure they will be higher afterwards.
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Well cigarettes will be sold in a minimum 20 soon and rolling tobacco will be a minimum of 30g as well, think anyone that has been a smoker knows that this will only encourage you to smoke more. Yes you can thank Brussels and the tpd . Oh and menthol cigarettes will only be banned, think that's 2020 though
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I cannot imagine the 20 pack only idea has come from someone who has ever smoked. My wife who was never a big smoker used to buy a pack of 10 and make it last her a week. If she still smoked, the plan now is for such people to have constant temptation sitting in the draw.
You have to wonder if this was dreamed up by someone wanting to help cover the taxation short - fall as a result of so many smokers giving up and going onto the vape :-\
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Yes, I`m a smoke and prefer self rolled ones
For a longer time tobacco was sold in 40 g packages, 4,55 € (Lidl, Aldi) or 6 €, then some month ago I saw some packages 30 g for 5 €,
and yesterday I bought a package for 6 € without knowing that are only 32 g in it , not 40 g! I didn`t want to pay 25 % more - so tomorrow I`m not that lazy and buy two or three at Aldi or Lidl (quality and taste are nearly the same) ...
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Can remember when I smoked roll ups and whenever I got a few 50g packs of duty free ( people bring back on holiday, nowt black market etc gov) , I would smoke quite a bit more at least 2 x 50g a week sometimes more
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Personally I m leaning towards out , yes I've been called a militant leftist before and sadly I'm on the side of that fck wit Boris and then nasty animal mick gove. Immigration has nothing to do with my vote. I'm sure trade will work its self out. What grinds my gears is meps making bad decisions - undemocratic decisions , yes British democracy might not be the best but at least its kinda there
Well you will be glad to hear that as a leftie, your Mr Corbyn has helpfully forgotten 40 years on the public purse campaigning to get out and u-turned his entire career to have an epiphany that we should now stay in. :D
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He isn't my mr corbyn , I didn't vote labour though both the parties I voted for in the recent Scottish Parliament elections both support staying in. Yes you get two separate votes , local msp - first past the post system, regional list vote - proportional representation. A much fairer system than Westminster, ie the greens got 6 seats 1 more than the lib Dems. Basically I go with what I think is right, surprising that the labour party have been very quiet on this issue
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Well. I think Im voting in. Hand on heart for all the negatives I read about Europe, My life is not worse because of Europe. I do wish the papers wouldnt print scarmongering stories from politicians or the CEO of Shoe Zone predicting the country will fall to pieces though. It wont, itll get along fine. Mind you we could take a leaf from the SNP and push for another referendum if we dont get the result we want :D
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The people should get what they desire, politics should be about democracy. Agreed no more scare stories. Will be glad when its all over whatever the outcome
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The people should get what they desire, politics should be about democracy. Agreed no more scare stories. Will be glad when its all over whatever the outcome
I wish you were right, but scare stories from both sides will continue.
You say "the people should get what they desire", but only SOME people will get what they desire. That is democracy. :)
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Well. I think Im voting in. Hand on heart for all the negatives I read about Europe, My life is not worse because of Europe. I do wish the papers wouldnt print scarmongering stories from politicians or the CEO of Shoe Zone predicting the country will fall to pieces though. It wont, itll get along fine. Mind you we could take a leaf from the SNP and push for another referendum if we dont get the result we want :D
Was your voting to stay in ever in doubt? You surely gave away your political intent when you accused me of being a "little Englander" for daring to talk about immigration in other topics? :D
But as far as having another vote if we dont get the result, and I realise you were joking, where does it end. When Scotland eventually votes to leave us, and they will, do the "stay in the UK" lot get another vote a year after to reverse it????? :)
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Well. I think Im voting in. Hand on heart for all the negatives I read about Europe, My life is not worse because of Europe. I do wish the papers wouldnt print scarmongering stories from politicians or the CEO of Shoe Zone predicting the country will fall to pieces though. It wont, itll get along fine. Mind you we could take a leaf from the SNP and push for another referendum if we dont get the result we want :D
Was your voting to stay in ever in doubt? You surely gave away your political intent when you accused me of being a "little Englander" for daring to talk about immigration in other topics? :D
But as far as having another vote if we dont get the result, and I realise you were joking, where does it end. When Scotland eventually votes to leave us, and they will, do the "stay in the UK" lot get another vote a year after to reverse it????? :)
Ive been absolutely unsure for ages, and ive expressed that honestly several times. I have no agenda. Just my beleifs and thoughts. Most of the people I know, are solely voting leave because of migration/immigration and while it has minuses,it also has pluses. I actually thought in some posts you were posting good sense....and agreed with you. Having balanced all the for and against leaving for some weeks, I genuinely beleive remain is better for the country. And I do get that everything isnt perfect for all. I do respect a different viewpoint and dont expect to change it or dismiss it because I dont agree and i have never in my life beleived I am right and everyone is wrong.
But likewise, no-one will change what I beleive in nor will it be dismissed.
Possibly the most important X in a box in my lifetime, that will have consequences for my children, which ever way it goes. Scary stuff!!!!!!
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Well. I think Im voting in. Hand on heart for all the negatives I read about Europe, My life is not worse because of Europe. I do wish the papers wouldnt print scarmongering stories from politicians or the CEO of Shoe Zone predicting the country will fall to pieces though. It wont, itll get along fine. Mind you we could take a leaf from the SNP and push for another referendum if we dont get the result we want :D
Was your voting to stay in ever in doubt? You surely gave away your political intent when you accused me of being a "little Englander" for daring to talk about immigration in other topics? :D
But as far as having another vote if we dont get the result, and I realise you were joking, where does it end. When Scotland eventually votes to leave us, and they will, do the "stay in the UK" lot get another vote a year after to reverse it????? :)
Ive been absolutely unsure for ages, and ive expressed that honestly several times. I have no agenda. Just my beleifs and thoughts. Most of the people I know, are solely voting leave because of migration/immigration and while it has minuses,it also has pluses. I actually thought in some posts you were posting good sense....and agreed with you. Having balanced all the for and against leaving for some weeks, I genuinely beleive remain is better for the country. And I do get that everything isnt perfect for all. I do respect a different viewpoint and dont expect to change it or dismiss it because I dont agree and i have never in my life beleived I am right and everyone is wrong.
But likewise, no-one will change what I beleive in nor will it be dismissed.
Possibly the most important X in a box in my lifetime, that will have consequences for my children, which ever way it goes. Scary stuff!!!!!!
Ah, now there's the rub... :D
Firstly, DB, you'v reached a rational decision based on research and much thought, which is more than many folks in the UK have done, so I respect that.
But I'm afraid I don't agree with the thing about migration / immigration being the sole factor for voting LEAVE. Well, it's certainly one, but not because of the whole 'afraid of the foreigners' thing, more the fact that the whole thing is so mis-managed. C'mon, did NOBODY see this coming? Plans should have been put in place many years ago... and they weren't, instead every country just looks after themselves. Passes these poor desperate people from place to place with no idea of what to do with them, increasing tension from the immigrants and directly leading to the new rise of the Far Right amongst the ignorant and equally scared. European UNION? Every man / country for himself, more like... ask my pal in Germany what Merkel allowing unimpeded immigration into his country did for his hometown...
As for the way that economically unstable countries like Turkey are being fast-tracked for membership... why? What can they offer? Sorry to sound like a bit of a bastard, but you don't invite someone to get a joint bank account with you if they've got a huge history of debt and financial mismanagement!
And I still don't get why unelected folks are being given ultimate power and we should allow them to over-ride our own government (much as I hate our present government, but that's another debate... ;))
I could go on, these debates are all available on other forums, but I think they've been covered before.
But you got it right, DB, this is the greatest European crisis of the 21st century and however everyone votes, and whatever the result might be, I hope they think carefully about it and respects the eventual outcome...
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Reading a lot of the posts here, I think a lot of us are getting our hatred for a political party or leader mixed up with the issue of whether we should leave or stay in the EU imo. Loathing for Cameron, Boris, Corbyn, Clegg etc is not the issue. Long after this cast have retired to the Lords we will still be left with the legacy of how we voted. Can we not remove ourselves from party dogma and how we vote in a normal election to discuss the issues.
It is difficult to get information. But understanding that the Mirror, Indi, Guardian and Huffington are left wing and will chip away at the right, and the Sun, Express, Mail etc will do the same to the left. Reading around facts, past decisions and in the end our personal belief on whether it will/not help with immigration, will/wont help the economy and so on is going to be down to us I think personally!
In the end this land has survived the blitz, WW1, Armadas, famine, despots, Romans, Vikings, more crisis that we can remember and come through, so I think we will all survive whatever the vote! :)
Oh jeez .............. Totally agree with you ............... :o :o :o :o ;D
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Well. I think Im voting in. Hand on heart for all the negatives I read about Europe, My life is not worse because of Europe. I do wish the papers wouldnt print scarmongering stories from politicians or the CEO of Shoe Zone predicting the country will fall to pieces though. It wont, itll get along fine. Mind you we could take a leaf from the SNP and push for another referendum if we dont get the result we want :D
Was your voting to stay in ever in doubt? You surely gave away your political intent when you accused me of being a "little Englander" for daring to talk about immigration in other topics? :D
But as far as having another vote if we dont get the result, and I realise you were joking, where does it end. When Scotland eventually votes to leave us, and they will, do the "stay in the UK" lot get another vote a year after to reverse it????? :)
Ive been absolutely unsure for ages, and ive expressed that honestly several times. I have no agenda. Just my beleifs and thoughts. Most of the people I know, are solely voting leave because of migration/immigration and while it has minuses,it also has pluses. I actually thought in some posts you were posting good sense....and agreed with you. Having balanced all the for and against leaving for some weeks, I genuinely beleive remain is better for the country. And I do get that everything isnt perfect for all. I do respect a different viewpoint and dont expect to change it or dismiss it because I dont agree and i have never in my life beleived I am right and everyone is wrong.
But likewise, no-one will change what I beleive in nor will it be dismissed.
Possibly the most important X in a box in my lifetime, that will have consequences for my children, which ever way it goes. Scary stuff!!!!!!
Ah, now there's the rub... :D
Firstly, DB, you'v reached a rational decision based on research and much thought, which is more than many folks in the UK have done, so I respect that.
But I'm afraid I don't agree with the thing about migration / immigration being the sole factor for voting LEAVE. Well, it's certainly one, but not because of the whole 'afraid of the foreigners' thing, more the fact that the whole thing is so mis-managed. C'mon, did NOBODY see this coming? Plans should have been put in place many years ago... and they weren't, instead every country just looks after themselves. Passes these poor desperate people from place to place with no idea of what to do with them, increasing tension from the immigrants and directly leading to the new rise of the Far Right amongst the ignorant and equally scared. European UNION? Every man / country for himself, more like... ask my pal in Germany what Merkel allowing unimpeded immigration into his country did for his hometown...
As for the way that economically unstable countries like Turkey are being fast-tracked for membership... why? What can they offer? Sorry to sound like a bit of a bastard, but you don't invite someone to get a joint bank account with you if they've got a huge history of debt and financial mismanagement!
And I still don't get why unelected folks are being given ultimate power and we should allow them to over-ride our own government (much as I hate our present government, but that's another debate... ;))
I could go on, these debates are all available on other forums, but I think they've been covered before.
But you got it right, DB, this is the greatest European crisis of the 21st century and however everyone votes, and whatever the result might be, I hope they think carefully about it and respects the eventual outcome...
No mate migration isnt the sole reason and I havent said that. But for the people I know, who want out, its the one they keep coming back to, not loss of sovereign powers, or money spent on us not Europe. So I only speak from personal experience. I dont dismiss a valid point and concern. I just feel that while it aint perfect, the benefits of Europe outweigh the minuses and risks involved in coming out, although I dont think the world will come to an end if we do. I see that DC has attacked one of his own ministers over the Turkey issue and said its not going to be anytime soon. As much as I dont trust the man, I dont beleive he would do anything that will cost the country money or financial/social instability. Its not his style. Lets not forget he has at least tried to tackle it with Europe as opposed to B.Liar who accepted the whole open door without question. I do feel the whole debate is at risk of descending into mis-information from both sides. Hence the reason we go with what we beleive.
But hey, we get what we get and live with it.
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Very much agree with you drummyb , most of the people I speak are concerned by the effects of immigration - jobs, housing, schools, nhs etc . Scotland likes to make out its a open and welcoming country but scratch the surface and you'll find it isn't true - just my take n maybe a majority of people I speak to but certainly not all. There is some more clued up people that have concerns about the amount of money being spent on Europe, the loss of democracy to Brussels, concern's over fishing etc
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Reading a lot of the posts here, I think a lot of us are getting our hatred for a political party or leader mixed up with the issue of whether we should leave or stay in the EU imo. Loathing for Cameron, Boris, Corbyn, Clegg etc is not the issue. Long after this cast have retired to the Lords we will still be left with the legacy of how we voted. Can we not remove ourselves from party dogma and how we vote in a normal election to discuss the issues.
It is difficult to get information. But understanding that the Mirror, Indi, Guardian and Huffington are left wing and will chip away at the right, and the Sun, Express, Mail etc will do the same to the left. Reading around facts, past decisions and in the end our personal belief on whether it will/not help with immigration, will/wont help the economy and so on is going to be down to us I think personally!
In the end this land has survived the blitz, WW1, Armadas, famine, despots, Romans, Vikings, more crisis that we can remember and come through, so I think we will all survive whatever the vote! :)
Oh jeez .............. Totally agree with you ............... :o :o :o :o ;D
You agree with me? The world has stopped turning!!!!! lol ;)
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Oh, bugger it, I'm completely sick of this EU in/out (you shake it all about) debate...
No side will ever convince the other. So here's the classic Monty Python 'Argument' sketch, which sums the whole thing up for me right now...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNkjDuSVXiE
Not posting on this subject anymore... I'm sure everyone here has their reasons for which side they vote and I hope they will do it with intelligence and reason and will accept (whoever wins) whatever consequences happen a few years down the line, if any... OK? :)
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Lol. You just hammered a nail on the head!! Id thought a few days back when discussing the EU with someone at work, that everyone has an opinion that no-one is likely to change. So debate is pointless other than serving our ego.
And on that bombshell....im shutting this Forum and parliament down!!!! ;D
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Lol Master Ray - perhaps it`s a kind of a banana attack ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPFIudX2UIc
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Lol Master Ray - perhaps it`s a kind of a banana attack ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPFIudX2UIc
Haven't seen that sketch in ages, great, thanks for that!
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Aw hell... I posted that thing about 'not posting on the EU debate anymore' thing a couple of days... then someone sent me THIS, which is too funny not to share with you... a bit rude...
http://www.newscross.co.uk/eu-referendum-called-off-after-both-sides-run-out-of-bullshit
Think of it not as an addition to the debate, just me posting a joke... ::)
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For those who missed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BFSJRH1q-A
Faisal Islam well done great performance.
Dave shit.
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For those who missed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BFSJRH1q-A
Faisal Islam well done great performance.
Dave shit.
Great performance on doing what? Yeah Cameron is a twit. But again are we not just looking with complete bias at politicians we do not vote for in General Elections and instantly not listening to them or dismissing what they say because "they said it".
It also depends on the bias of the interviewer, Channel 4 news makes Jeremy Clarkson seem like a trot, Kate Garroway who asked some questions to Call Me Dave this morning is married to a Labour spin doctor with a less than salubrious record, shall we say.
Personally I think this is a massively important vote and too important to be at the level where we say that because [Corbyn][Cameron][Boris][Nigel][Clegg][Lucas] (ring whichever one) said it it must be shit?
I understand that this board leans to the left. So I understand why hardly anyone has given Corbyn, who is awol in any debate and had ducked and dived. We also forget that while Cameron is a twit, he at least is defending a position he said he would take and has unerringly kept to it.
Whereas Corbyn has u-turned an entire political career where he stood next to Tony Benn for decades preaching we must get out of the EU, to now suddenly have seen the EU as the holy grail in the last year and decided we must stay. That is pure hypocrisy.
Anyway in summary. F*** em all, they all have agendas. Lets just read what facts we can glean, look at personal experience, march down to those booths and put a cross where we want. Then the next day we can say "I told you so" if it goes Right/Wrong (delete where appropriate). Those who don't vote can stay silent as far as I'm concerned. :)
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Whereas Corbyn has u-turned an entire political career where he stood next to Tony Benn for decades preaching we must get out of the EU, to now suddenly have seen the EU as the holy grail in the last year and decided we must stay. That is pure hypocrisy.
You mean like your obese inbred friend boris johnson has done (till 2 weeks before 'declaring' for leave he was actively stating the benefits of staying)? Except I don't hear you complain about that piece of shit doing that.
Corbyn is being politically smart, for once, and seeing as personally I dislike pretty much both sides (the EU and the people who most vocally call for leaving it) and all I care about this referendum is seeing the tories rip each other apart and hopefully doing themselves lasting damage I certainly applaud that. [I will vote by the way, but as to which way it'll depend on what I believe will further my stated aim most]
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Whereas Corbyn has u-turned an entire political career where he stood next to Tony Benn for decades preaching we must get out of the EU, to now suddenly have seen the EU as the holy grail in the last year and decided we must stay. That is pure hypocrisy.
You mean like your obese inbred friend boris johnson has done (till 2 weeks before 'declaring' for leave he was actively stating the benefits of staying)? Except I don't hear you complain about that piece of shit doing that.
Corbyn is being politically smart, for once, and seeing as personally I dislike pretty much both sides (the EU and the people who most vocally call for leaving it) and all I care about this referendum is seeing the tories rip each other apart and hopefully doing themselves lasting damage I certainly applaud that. [I will vote by the way, but as to which way it'll depend on what I believe will further my stated aim most]
Why is Johnson "my friend". Where have I ever said I support Johnson? Answer; never. So why the aggressive assumption to a perfectly reasonable post of mine?
So please listen. Yes Johnson, and indeed most of the Tory and many of the Labour MPs have cynically moved and positioned themselves. Which makes them all what they always were. Hypocrites.
But whatever we think of Johnson, he is a man not on any real political radars a decade or more ago. Whereas "politically smart" Corbyn has been on the radar for decades. Which makes him the same, but probably more so. But I understand how political leanings can make some people think that is smart. I do not.
Still, if you are voting leave or stay based on how it will effect a party you do not like, on a massive European issue that will effect generations then I suspect you and I are probably not on the same page. Fair enough?
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Not having been on this board much lately, I actually just read this whole thread. Plenty of good points either way.
Idopas, how was my post rude? Essentially, I was comparing Brussels to London which I think is valid.
I still think that it would be a great shame if Britain left the EU. I feel that both sides would be worse off. To me a vote against Europe is essentially a vote for the right regardless of anyone's actual political leanings. I just can't see it any other way. I hope I'm wrong. I agree with most of the arguments levelled against the EU but I just don't think that the alternative will bring the desired results.
Anyway, choose wisely people. As others have said, this is bigger than any particular party or politician that you may dislike.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ2n7oMcSi0
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I’m unclear as to how anyone really thinks staying in the EU is in any of our best interests.
For example, the decision of the Maastricht Treaty over 20 years ago to replace the European Economic Community (EEC) with the European Union (EU), further to a view of much closer political integration, is simply a huge mistake with serious consequences, especially in a Europe only recently united after post-war divisions.
It is impossible to create an EU super-state on a continent as fractured as Europe. Europe cannot be worked according to some ‘pseudo-scientific’ American political model. If Brussels were serious about trying to do the super-state, then it would hardly impose its will on any member state which disagrees with it (See Treaty of Lisbon in Ireland done twice through a referendum to ensure a ‘yes’ vote, removal of leaders in Greece and Italy etc…).
Clearly, Brussels doesn’t understand what Washington did back in 1783 – the necessary system of checks and balances with a larger, diverse union further to expansion. Neither does Brussels fully understand the role of history in places like Central and Eastern Europe, and that imposing something like refugee quotas on particular states which fought against the Ottoman Turks for centuries isn’t going to wash and is only going to increase nationalist reactions in states which have only recently discovered or re-discovered independence.
We are not ‘one’ but ‘many’. The UK itself is one of the best examples of a political and economic union, one which has evolved and works more on the basis of devolution now than strict centralisation. The EU, on the other hand, has become increasingly bureaucratic, centralised and with greater disregard for the democratic pursuits of its own member states. We are not signing from the same hymn sheet, nor should we be.
Why are we under some kind of illusion that the EU brings us greater freedoms and economic prosperity? Most EU member states’ economies are simply a disgrace of corruption and stagnation entrenched by the use of the Euro which benefits no one’s economy but Germany’s. Greece is the best example of a country which has gone down the shitter since its membership over 30 years ago, the group of PIIGS a great example of economies going nowhere fast in what is supposed to be a prosperous Europe shackled with debt and indecision. The same prosperous Europe in which its two richest nations (Norway and Switzerland) reject EU membership outright. The EU's recent handling of the crisis in Ukraine, which was keen to join, was nothing better than a joke on the stage of international diplomacy - an own goal to Putin if ever there was one.
Immigration is a huge point of contention not only in the UK, but throughout the EU. Ask yourself just how exactly each member state ‘agreed’ to this condition. Was there really a vote on this matter, or was it decided in the boardrooms of Brussels to facilitate cheap labour from states of high unemployment? Then ask yourself how each state could make a decision to act independently from Brussels on this issue – should they wish to renegotiate the terms of the freedom of movement or remove themselves from it altogether. Nevertheless, the ‘democratic deficit’ and the lack of cohesion of the participating member states are actually the least of our worries in some ways by this sad and sorry stage.
If the UK does have the courage to leave, and I certainly hope it does, it simply paves the way for the organisation in its current form to collapse...or, what I would like to see is the decision to return to the conditions of the EEC prior to 1995.
Brexit.
What other EU member states will really want to remain in a post-Brexit union dominated by Germany, given Europe’s most recent past? Benelux, France? The UK’s departure will be followed by others without doubt (most likely Denmark, Hungary, Poland etc…). No one really gives a toss of any sort whether a member state like Slovakia or Greece, for example, pulls out. No one lost sleep over a possible Grexit. It’s a different matter if the UK or Germany wants out, however.
That in itself proves that the EU cannot and will never be a union of equals with a common aim, so let’s cut to the quick on the issue and admit what it’s really about.
Cameron and Corbyn advocating a 'yes' vote is little more than lining the Swiss (not in the EU) bank account.
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Interesting that labour have sent out the. "big guns" Gordon fcking Brown the only good thing he did was help inspire the tiagd lp . Cameron has played his trump card early - pensions might have to be cut in an attempt to frighten oaps the people most likely to vote and vote out. Labour had the chance last week to vote against the tpd (European directive on tobacco n vaping) . Corbyn said it was wrong yet he sends the party whips and shadow health minister out of get everyone on side. No wonder the party is going down the pan . 1 Scottish mp and beaten into 3rd place in the Scottish Parliament by the fcking tories wtf. Get a grip Jeremy, how long till England wakes up and realises your party is full o shit , if it hasn't already
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Agreed, Pol. I'd love to be a fervent and true-believing Labour supporter but they seem incapable of electing a leader who is palatable to the general public. I mean, that arsewomble Milliband... was Mr Bean unavailable? I've not completely written Corbyn off yet, but I'm a millimetre away...
But I do think that Cameron is finished, regardless of the EU result. He can't control his own party and he's been caught in a 'pants on fire' scenario too many times...
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Was funny to hear dodgy Dave saying he will continue to be leader no matter what, I suppose the tories can afford to rip themselves apart when is no meaning full challenge, one good thing the end is surely near for nasty Nigel whatever the result
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I’m unclear as to how anyone really thinks staying in the EU is in any of our best interests.
For example, the decision of the Maastricht Treaty over 20 years ago to replace the European Economic Community (EEC) with the European Union (EU), further to a view of much closer political integration, is simply a huge mistake with serious consequences, especially in a Europe only recently united after post-war divisions.
It is impossible to create an EU super-state on a continent as fractured as Europe. Europe cannot be worked according to some ‘pseudo-scientific’ American political model. If Brussels were serious about trying to do the super-state, then it would hardly impose its will on any member state which disagrees with it (See Treaty of Lisbon in Ireland done twice through a referendum to ensure a ‘yes’ vote, removal of leaders in Greece and Italy etc…).
Clearly, Brussels doesn’t understand what Washington did back in 1783 – the necessary system of checks and balances with a larger, diverse union further to expansion. Neither does Brussels fully understand the role of history in places like Central and Eastern Europe, and that imposing something like refugee quotas on particular states which fought against the Ottoman Turks for centuries isn’t going to wash and is only going to increase nationalist reactions in states which have only recently discovered or re-discovered independence.
We are not ‘one’ but ‘many’. The UK itself is one of the best examples of a political and economic union, one which has evolved and works more on the basis of devolution now than strict centralisation. The EU, on the other hand, has become increasingly bureaucratic, centralised and with greater disregard for the democratic pursuits of its own member states. We are not signing from the same hymn sheet, nor should we be.
Why are we under some kind of illusion that the EU brings us greater freedoms and economic prosperity? Most EU member states’ economies are simply a disgrace of corruption and stagnation entrenched by the use of the Euro which benefits no one’s economy but Germany’s. Greece is the best example of a country which has gone down the shitter since its membership over 30 years ago, the group of PIIGS a great example of economies going nowhere fast in what is supposed to be a prosperous Europe shackled with debt and indecision. The same prosperous Europe in which its two richest nations (Norway and Switzerland) reject EU membership outright. The EU's recent handling of the crisis in Ukraine, which was keen to join, was nothing better than a joke on the stage of international diplomacy - an own goal to Putin if ever there was one.
Immigration is a huge point of contention not only in the UK, but throughout the EU. Ask yourself just how exactly each member state ‘agreed’ to this condition. Was there really a vote on this matter, or was it decided in the boardrooms of Brussels to facilitate cheap labour from states of high unemployment? Then ask yourself how each state could make a decision to act independently from Brussels on this issue – should they wish to renegotiate the terms of the freedom of movement or remove themselves from it altogether. Nevertheless, the ‘democratic deficit’ and the lack of cohesion of the participating member states are actually the least of our worries in some ways by this sad and sorry stage.
If the UK does have the courage to leave, and I certainly hope it does, it simply paves the way for the organisation in its current form to collapse...or, what I would like to see is the decision to return to the conditions of the EEC prior to 1995.
Brexit.
What other EU member states will really want to remain in a post-Brexit union dominated by Germany, given Europe’s most recent past? Benelux, France? The UK’s departure will be followed by others without doubt (most likely Denmark, Hungary, Poland etc…). No one really gives a toss of any sort whether a member state like Slovakia or Greece, for example, pulls out. No one lost sleep over a possible Grexit. It’s a different matter if the UK or Germany wants out, however.
That in itself proves that the EU cannot and will never be a union of equals with a common aim, so let’s cut to the quick on the issue and admit what it’s really about.
Cameron and Corbyn advocating a 'yes' vote is little more than lining the Swiss (not in the EU) bank account.
Gotta say whilst your post is put together well, Im unsure about your comment about EU being led by Germany and Europes recent past. Surely to god you arent referring to something that happened 70 years ago? If so, how long is that stick gonna be used??
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Gotta say whilst your post is put together well, Im unsure about your comment about EU being led by Germany and Europes recent past. Surely to god you arent referring to something that happened 70 years ago? If so, how long is that stick gonna be used??
Germany has the largest economy, it has increasingly taken on a greater role in political leadership under Merkle (largely unwanted it must be said) and its influence over the European Central Bank in Frankfurt, which controls the Euro and all the Eurozone countries' monetary policies, is immense. German banks play the leading role throughout the Eurozone. Devaluation of the Euro to favour German exports comes at the expense of making imports more expensive, especially in Eurozone countries which are more dependent on imports.
I agree with you about the lasting effects of WWII and that it is unfair to hang this over Germany all these years later. I couldn't agree more. However, it is a very real consideration throughout almost all of the newer EU states from Poland to Hungary and to a country which considers itself a 'victim' of German fiscal and monetary policies and likes to evoke memories of Nazi occupation. Of course, this is Greece. There are also the Baltic States which glorify the role of the Nazis in WWII over that of the Soviets. We have moved mostly beyond this in Western Europe, but such cannot be said of the newer states where history is much more real and relevant. If you remove the UK from the EU, then Germany's position becomes strengthened, and that brings back very unfavourable memories. Even Norway is dubious of joining a German-dominated EU. The on-going conflict in Ukraine between the pro-EU and anti-EU sides regularly features reflections about WWII. The referendum in Crimea was fought by the pro-Russian faction on the memories of a Nazi occupied Crimea during WWII.
I've spent a lot of time recently in Greece and Norway and hear very similar arguments against the EU. Norway has officially rejected the EU twice, and the memories of WWII can play a significant role in that at times, as it does in Greece.
If I were Greek, I have no doubt whatsoever that I would also want out of the EU. Greece is a disaster compared to 25-30 years ago, simply a disaster with no control over its borders, its currency, its debt etc... This is not exclusive to Greece though by any means.
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...one good thing the end is surely near for nasty Nigel whatever the result
What happens if the referendum produces a 'leave' vote?
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Some interesting points here. Norway and Greece are at opposite ends of the EU debate though. For Norway, like Switzerland, it would make no sense to join the EU. They are the richest countries so they would only end up paying. In Norway, you have the added effect of, not only German occupation, but also centuries of Danish rule. They have only been a sovereign nation for around 100 years and they have no interest in giving away any of their hard earned independence.
Greece is just a mess. A lose-lose scenario created by local corruption and incompetence and EU (mostly German) economic and political interests. However, I disagree that a Grexit wouldn't have mattered. It would have destabilized Europe at it's most crucial location so it really was in no one's interest for them to leave.
Britain's situation is different, I feel. The benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Also, without Britain, the EU would lose some important balance. I don't think anyone considers the EU great anymore, but I, like many others, I feel it's better than not having it.
Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if Britain left. As islanders, Brits have always disliked the idea of conceding power to an outside force. The scaremongering and pointless threats by EU officials only make people more resolute to leave. A recent poll showed that out of all EU member states, Brits are the least informed about the actual workings of the EU. So I fear that the referendum will be decided mostly by polemics and not actual facts. Same could be said for any election, I guess.
If the EU want Britain to stay they need to come out and say it rather than threaten with hypothetical consequences. The EU needs Britain. If Cameron hadn't grovelled to Scotland, I'm sure that referendum would have turned out differently. It is much the same in this case.
Sadly I can't see this being the end of Farage or those that will replace him. And that is really my greatest worry. A 'no' to Europe is not only a 'yes' to UKIP and Boris Johnson but also to Front National, Alternative fuer Deutschland and all the other right wingers gaining power all over Europe.
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Anyone see the front covers of the UK newspapers today? Almost all MASSIVELY in favour of a Brexit vote, even the ridiculous comic that is The Sun, who've been kissing Cameron arse since the last general election and now seem to have done a complete 180 degree turn...
I genuinely believe, for the first time, that a Brexit vote may win it.
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Some interesting points here. Norway and Greece are at opposite ends of the EU debate though. For Norway, like Switzerland, it would make no sense to join the EU. They are the richest countries so they would only end up paying. In Norway, you have the added effect of, not only German occupation, but also centuries of Danish rule. They have only been a sovereign nation for around 100 years and they have no interest in giving away any of their hard earned independence.
Greece is just a mess. A lose-lose scenario created by local corruption and incompetence and EU (mostly German) economic and political interests. However, I disagree that a Grexit wouldn't have mattered. It would have destabilized Europe at it's most crucial location so it really was in no one's interest for them to leave.
Britain's situation is different, I feel. The benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Also, without Britain, the EU would lose some important balance. I don't think anyone considers the EU great anymore, but I, like many others, I feel it's better than not having it.
Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if Britain left. As islanders, Brits have always disliked the idea of conceding power to an outside force. The scaremongering and pointless threats by EU officials only make people more resolute to leave. A recent poll showed that out of all EU member states, Brits are the least informed about the actual workings of the EU. So I fear that the referendum will be decided mostly by polemics and not actual facts. Same could be said for any election, I guess.
If the EU want Britain to stay they need to come out and say it rather than threaten with hypothetical consequences. The EU needs Britain. If Cameron hadn't grovelled to Scotland, I'm sure that referendum would have turned out differently. It is much the same in this case.
Sadly I can't see this being the end of Farage or those that will replace him. And that is really my greatest worry. A 'no' to Europe is not only a 'yes' to UKIP and Boris Johnson but also to Front National, Alternative fuer Deutschland and all the other right wingers gaining power all over Europe.
Yes, Norway and Greece are at opposite ends, but it illustrates the fact that the EU provides little benefit to either one of them for very different reasons.
Greece is an absolute and utter mess, one which most EU member states would be glad to see removed from the organisation. Grexit was of little interest to Brussels in terms of their contribution to the EU, but it did matter that allowing them to leave would have opened a can of worms and paved the way for others to do so. The fact that the EU gives little more than a slight toss for Greece's current predicament and more for what could be concluded if they leave (e.g. failure of the Euro and closer political and economic integration) says a lot about where the EU is going. It says even more that they want to 'reward' the likes of Erdogan in Turkey, himself an obstruction to the whole crisis, yet continue to impose measures on Greece which simply cannot be met. You almost have to ask yourself which one is actually a member. Are people really that ignorant of the role of Greece in European civilisation? Are these people really right in the head wanting to impose immigration quotas and fixed penalties on its member states, some of which have an average monthly wage of less than €1000? Mental.
You're quite right that the EU would lose balance and that it needs the UK. It does, of course, have a strange way of showing it - somewhat like Corbyn's half-arsed attempt to favour a 'remain' vote, yet do little in terms of campaigning for one. I don't hear any significant voices in Europe urging the UK to remain, but then again do we know who these significant voices are when such key people aren't elected in the first place? We're not the only ones who dislike conceding power to an outside force: look at Poland and Hungary in particular. Can't say I'm a fan of Poland's current government, but that the EU under Donald Tusk, himself a Pole, wants to impose its own directive(s) over that of a sovereign nation (member) state is more than just a bit of a worry. Then again, we've seen this time and time again. When the Irish refused to accept The Treaty of Lisbon in a referendum, they were told to do it again and get a 'yes' the second time round. They did, so Brussels just wagged its finger again and put away the whip.
I fail to see the benefits of remaining an EU member in its current form; Cameron has done damn all to secure a better deal. It will take something as serious as Brexit to initiate real reform. Cameron is simply a schoolboy and an embarrassment on the international stage. I've heard farts with more conviction.
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Pumpkin. Noted your comments and a lot of what you say is well thought out.
It strikes me thar Europes central powers prop up Eastern Europe, be it financial or through employment.
Ive said before im in the in camp and that wont change. I understand it is flawed, but hand on heart, I dont beleive those flaws are worse than any that came before when we had sovereign rule. In fact for me, the EU puts checks in place to stop unfair or unjust government policy. I also think if the EU collapses (which I dont think it will, it gives Russia and advantage that they will exploit).
I fully expect the out camp will win, and it will be based solely on migration and 'human rights'.
Then Dave will make laws based on his majority governmentnd , business will have free reign over employment, the press will turn crime sentencing to 'out of touch judges', the NHS will still not be coping, we will still be living in austerity. But at least it will be our own fault.
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Kinda interesting that the in/ remain camp are threatening us with poorer employment laws are they really saying that vote out and we will fck you over. As an employee I believe that we have excellent employment rights as a friend of someone who runs a small business I can see how tough it can be.
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Well worth a watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO4Ayo4mYZg
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I can only go on my experiences Pol. I think as an employee, my rights are way better than they were pre EU, who have certainly bought in lot of legislation
The flip to it is a lot of big business wants us to stay in. Go figure!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8
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Excellent video, the truth at least put in a concise way. Frightening that 59% of our laws are made in Brussels by unelected officials , people who were rejected by the voters. Sad to see the scenes on the Thames today and shame on bob geldof , you have just lost a whole lot of respect, not too happy at Nigel trying to score points either btw
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Gotta say, Osbournes threat today of a new, what I can only describe as a 'bully budget' (ie, if you don't do as we want, we'll really **** you over financially) was a new low... >:(
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To be fair, hasnt he already been doing that!?!?!
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In my light hearted moments, Ive been ripping into the Outies I work with. "Who fancies a Brwitish cup of tea, made with Brwitish water. Brwitain is stronger in Brwitain. Now who fancies retiring to the lawn for a Brwitish game of Croquet"
Ah it amuses me anyway. Stoopid flag wavers ;D
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I can only go on my experiences Pol. I think as an employee, my rights are way better than they were pre EU, who have certainly bought in lot of legislation
The flip to it is a lot of big business wants us to stay in. Go figure!
No doubt being in the EU has done some good in the past for the UK. After all, a previous generation chose to join the EU. If we do leave I really cannot imagine any self respecting Government that wants to stand any chance of being re-elected will start to take on the task of reversing employment rights we have now well established. I would figure a lot of big business is worried about losing vast numbers of minimum wage workers from the East and therefore have to up the pay to attract UK workers who prefer a living wage.
one thing I wish the leave campaign would point out is that if we do vote to leave, we will not be gone overnight, it will take two years - plenty of time to iron out any problems.
With the UK being such a massive and vital market for the EU, the EU is not going to cut its nose off to spite its face. The economy of the EU will still be just as dependent on trading with the UK and will want to continue to do so. The likes of Germany do not want us to to leave as they know the remaining more wealthy nations will have to cover the short fall after the UK's contributions stop.
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Bang on the button Shush. The world wont collapse if we leave and things get rebuilt.
The only thing ill say is that they wont reverse employment legislation straight away....but I dont doubt it will be chipped away at. Times of austerity covers all bases, and has done :(
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Anyone remember the story of Chicken Licken?
Could be applied to both sides of the argument.... ;)
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Pumpkin. Noted your comments and a lot of what you say is well thought out.
It strikes me thar Europes central powers prop up Eastern Europe, be it financial or through employment.
Ive said before im in the in camp and that wont change. I understand it is flawed, but hand on heart, I dont beleive those flaws are worse than any that came before when we had sovereign rule. In fact for me, the EU puts checks in place to stop unfair or unjust government policy. I also think if the EU collapses (which I dont think it will, it gives Russia and advantage that they will exploit).
I fully expect the out camp will win, and it will be based solely on migration and 'human rights'.
Then Dave will make laws based on his majority governmentnd , business will have free reign over employment, the press will turn crime sentencing to 'out of touch judges', the NHS will still not be coping, we will still be living in austerity. But at least it will be our own fault.
Thanks. The newer states had to get their houses in order in terms of debt reduction to gain EU membership in 2004. Certain amounts of debt were written off, because it was deemed difficult in the adjustment periods and a legacy of communism. It's amazing that throughout this time the western EU states racked up debt like no one's business, and the same leniency shown some of the newer member states before 2004 was subsequently never applied to the group of PIIGS before and following the recession. The failure of the banks is legendary and legislation was always in place to bail their sorry arse out if they went bankrupt. When we questioned this policy, we were told there was no other option. Then years later we're told that some measures invoked by the troika were above and beyond the call of duty. In many ways the newer states are better off than PIIGS, but the cost of living is still significantly higher than average wages, some of which are less than €1000/month.
Russia has an advantage which it has mastered over the EU since 2008 - going from strength to strength. First, it was Georgia, then Ukraine, where the obvious pro-EU sentiments of both were undermined by very successful policies, whilst Brussels sat back and did little more than wag a finger at Putin. Crimea was then annexed, despite the outrage, but again Brussels did little more than give off hot air backed by little more than somewhat insignificant sanctions. (It should be mentioned that the disputed 'recognition' of Kosovo is another blunder and provided some 'justification' for annexing Crimea in the first place in Putin's eyes.) Russia's role has now graduated to supporting Assad with outright military power to change the playing field in Syria, minimising ISIS in the process, despite protestations from Brussels and Washington that getting heavy with ISIS would make the situation worse.
Whilst the EU promises Erdogan a virtual pot of gold and the removal of Visa requirements, to help with the refugee crisis, Erdogan continues to hunt down Kurdish militias which are very successful against ISIS, thus going against the 'stated aims' (if we can really believe this) of NATO and the EU. If anything, the EU has proven to be completely impotent, but this was evident a generation ago.
Cameron is now seen as a liability to the "Remain" camp, and you would need a metal detector to locate Corbyn's contribution. I've never seen such piss-artist-styled political 'leadership' (use the word loosely) in my life from the leaders of the two largest political parties in this country. Throw Osbourne (it would at least be more entertaining if it were Ozzy) and Geldof into the mix and the "Remain" camp is looking increasingly amusing. Still, I don't take a "Leave" vote for granted. Remember what happened with the Scottish Referendum when the penny dropped that it might leave the Union? Yes, well, politics do not necessarily maketh the man...
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I would figure a lot of big business is worried about losing vast numbers of minimum wage workers from the East and therefore have to up the pay to attract UK workers who prefer a living wage.
There is plenty of truth to that. I found this quite amusing the other day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHLfMXb0Yg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHLfMXb0Yg)
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The failure of the banks is legendary and legislation was always in place to bail their sorry arse out if they went bankrupt. When we questioned this policy, we were told there was no other option.
you didn't fuking question anything, in fact you were the one defending the banks on here when everyone was quite rightly outraged and their behaviour and telling US (in your usual pompous style) that there was other option; and there's plenty of people who were here at the time who can vouch for that. Of course though, you then kept a low profile for long enough for the habitual users of this board to change and now can come back and pretend you're a whole different person. You did the same a few months ago with your call to back Assad as the lesser of two evils (which I agree with, incidentally) and denouncing the failings of the campaigns in Iraq and Libya when in the past you were one of the staunchiest supporters of the war in Iraq and toppling Saddam.
I see many good points in leaving the EU, but what I can't stand is right wing cunts, all the way from boris johnson to you pretending they aren't to suit their needs and drag people to their side.
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The failure of the banks is legendary and legislation was always in place to bail their sorry arse out if they went bankrupt. When we questioned this policy, we were told there was no other option.
you didn't fuking question anything, in fact you were the one defending the banks on here when everyone was quite rightly outraged and their behaviour and telling US (in your usual pompous style) that there was other option; and there's plenty of people who were here at the time who can vouch for that. Of course though, you then kept a low profile for long enough for the habitual users of this board to change and now can come back and pretend you're a whole different person. You did the same a few months ago with your call to back Assad as the lesser of two evils (which I agree with, incidentally) and denouncing the failings of the campaigns in Iraq and Libya when in the past you were one of the staunchiest supporters of the war in Iraq and toppling Saddam.
I see many good points in leaving the EU, but what I can't stand is right wing cunts, all the way from boris johnson to you pretending they aren't to suit their needs and drag people to their side.
To address your concerns, I didn't defend the banks on a bailout. I defended them on their own decision to operate as they saw fit. There is a fundamental difference.
I believe banks are free to operate (still do), but they are also free to fail (always have). In doing so, should there be protection from bankruptcy? Well, seemingly, yes and that includes a bailout, EU legislation guaranteed just that. However, if you want to operate in a 'fully free market environment', then you have to accept the consequences - including liquidation. Banks are no exception. If banks want to exploit low interest rates and loan money on easy conditions, they have to be prepared to take all the consequences. I argued, and still do, that the banks had the right to lend in the way they did, providing they were prepared. There is a difference: you have to have the reserves. It's a high risk business and you accept the condition of failure without running to the government for a handout. As for borrowers, there must also be the realisation that they are responsible for their own decisions. I'm not sure what part of all this you didn't/don't understand.
I still stand by the removal of Saddam. What I don't agree with is the conduct thereafter. What I don't agree with is the loss of control and direction in Iraq, because no corresponding strong authority was put in place. What I don't agree with is the half-arsed attempt to 'move forward' without proper infrastructure in place. You need to finish what you start. Again, there is a fundamental difference.
The lack of long-term vision and planning is the problem - not Saddam's removal. However, the real regional threat, as I have stated many times on this board, is actually Saudi Arabia - supposedly our ally. Democracy is a better idea than dictatorship. Yes. However, a secular dictatorship is preferable to an Islamic 'dictatorship' or 'caliphate'. As for Assad, I'd take him over Saddam or Gaddafi. He was never in the same league. Perhaps what you misunderstand is my criticism for lack of constructive, long-term Western foreign policy over criticism of its basic decisions. Syria will end up in the shite if there is no long-term plan in operation, and there clearly isn't. Best to keep Assad than have the place fall to ISIS.
You can continue to misrepresent what people whom you don't like say and stoop to your amusing, predictable behaviour of name-calling, or you can choose to engage in proper discussion like many others on this board do.
You did much the same thing with ldopas' previous post in this very thread, but, as usual, failed to respond to his comments on the matter.
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I don't engage with trolls and do my debating in real life, with people who stand before me rather than hiding behind Internet handles. If other people want to do that here that's their prerogative, I just thought I'd warn them as to who they are dealing with, seeing as the turnover on this board is pretty high (something you've used to your advantage, conveniently disappearing for long enough periods of time when too many people see you for what you are) and most of them have no idea what people like you said and did in the past. What they then choose to do is not for me to decide or comment on.
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I don't engage with trolls and do my debating in real life, with people who stand before me rather than hiding behind Internet handles. If other people want to do that here that's their prerogative, I just thought I'd warn them as to who they are dealing with, seeing as the turnover on this board is pretty high (something you've used to your advantage, conveniently disappearing for long enough periods of time when too many people see you for what you are) and most of them have no idea what people like you said and did in the past. What they then decide to do is not for me to decide or comment on.
I prefer to let people make up their own minds and judge for themselves, rather than go down the road of prejudice and trying to influence what others think about a particular subject or person. I prefer not to make assumptions or accusations or call people names. I'll leave that squarely to you.
You have made absolutely no attempt to address my previous post which made plenty of reference to what I have said in the past. We know the real reasons why though. It doesn't fit your agenda here.
Now, if you want to be constructive about the subject at hand, please do. I'm not really interested in dealing with someone who wants to turn a discussion about the EU Referendum into just how much they dislike me and feel the need to tell the entire board why in a subjective manner. I'm not concerned about me in this at all, but I would be about you.
Maybe you could explain why you think leaving the EU could be a good idea. This is actually the thread to do it. Or would it be too much that we actually agree on something other than Assad?
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See Cameron has called in the political heavyweights now, Jeremy Clarkson wonder who is next my money is on dale Winton or Orville the duck and chase the gay n green vote
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg4goZxXRZk
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I see many good points in leaving the EU, but what I can't stand is right wing cunts, all the way from boris johnson to you...
Care to expand on that?
Or is it just another flippant remark?
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg4goZxXRZk
Quite interesting...and so are the comments.
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I see many good points in leaving the EU, but what I can't stand is right wing cunts, all the way from boris johnson to you...
Although I caved in and posted on this topic earlier this week, as a rule I avoid topics of a political nature on here like the plaque. The above comment is exactly why. Anyone who dares to look at the other point of view or has a different opinion is shot down for it. Danny, Pumpkin is clearly a big boy and can look after himself, but I looks to me you think anyone who thinks differently to yourself is ****. 15 million people in the U.K. who chose to vote the opposite way to you last year, all cunts. ::)
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Thanks for your post, Shush.
I think this is an excellent topic, and its importance is that it should be discussed freely by a large number of participants on the board who should wish to do so. The importance of the referendum and its implications are without question. It's probably the biggest decision of our generation.
There are different viewpoints and we can all learn more from that.
There was a perfectly civil discussion here throughout until it was hijacked by Danny to exercise personal vendettas.
Regardless, I hope others will continue to post and offer their take on the referendum.
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Quite right too. Discussion and debate is healthy. I disagree with the outies but theyre perfectly entitled to an intelligently formed opinion. I wont change their mind, they wont change mine. It.doesnt mean it cant be discussed. We're all adults.
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Exactly. Me and you disagreed on something else in the past D/B, happy to discuss as such with you here or when we see each other again, always respect an informed well put opinion, but not with shouts and name calling. Sorry, Danny, not trying to turn this into an anti-Danny thread. I admire the way your are dedicated to your beliefs. Just feel the "C" bomb is too much.
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Not having been on this board much lately, I actually just read this whole thread. Plenty of good points either way.
Idopas, how was my post rude? Essentially, I was comparing Brussels to London which I think is valid.
I still think that it would be a great shame if Britain left the EU. I feel that both sides would be worse off. To me a vote against Europe is essentially a vote for the right regardless of anyone's actual political leanings. I just can't see it any other way. I hope I'm wrong. I agree with most of the arguments levelled against the EU but I just don't think that the alternative will bring the desired results.
Anyway, choose wisely people. As others have said, this is bigger than any particular party or politician that you may dislike.
Hi, been away for a while. Apologies I really don't recall saying you were rude. I did look back at my posts and cannot find reference to it. So again sorry if I got it wrong somewhere.
And I completely agree with your last point. Since I've been away it looks like people are getting very heated about some politicians. Which is irrelevant really because this is about our relationship with Europe and not our political biases in the UK and which UK politicians we hate. It is, as you say MUCH bigger than that and I think we need to get our heads out of which politicians we hate and onto EU issues. We've got just over a week.
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Interesting that labour have sent out the. "big guns" Gordon fcking Brown the only good thing he did was help inspire the tiagd lp . Cameron has played his trump card early - pensions might have to be cut in an attempt to frighten oaps the people most likely to vote and vote out. Labour had the chance last week to vote against the tpd (European directive on tobacco n vaping) . Corbyn said it was wrong yet he sends the party whips and shadow health minister out of get everyone on side. No wonder the party is going down the pan . 1 Scottish mp and beaten into 3rd place in the Scottish Parliament by the fcking tories wtf. Get a grip Jeremy, how long till England wakes up and realises your party is full o shit , if it hasn't already
And that is exactly what I was saying, or trying to say earlier, without the colourful vernacular! ;)
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Gotta say, Osbournes threat today of a new, what I can only describe as a 'bully budget' (ie, if you don't do as we want, we'll really **** you over financially) was a new low... >:(
Osborne and Darling's threat lest we not forget MR.
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I don't engage with trolls and do my debating in real life, with people who stand before me rather than hiding behind Internet handles. If other people want to do that here that's their prerogative, I just thought I'd warn them as to who they are dealing with, seeing as the turnover on this board is pretty high (something you've used to your advantage, conveniently disappearing for long enough periods of time when too many people see you for what you are) and most of them have no idea what people like you said and did in the past. What they then choose to do is not for me to decide or comment on.
Wow. That sounds like a threat to a person who was only posting about what he thinks about the EU. The fact that you do not agree with it doesn't require a response like that surely? I've been here a long time and do not recall him speaking to you like that? Though I suspect I will be called a "right wing c" now.
Or to put it another way. You sound like a person with stress issues that go beyond this. That goes nowhere healthwise I am here to tell you as someone who died on the 9th January this year from it and other complications, but thanks to our brilliant NHS am here to tell you that. Something to consider?
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Who's the troll now Danny?
I was going through a tough time in my life when you continued to beat me down with that name.
Some rallied later with support and understanding. Maybe you need the same family arm around you now? Your friend only disagrees with you. Nothing more. You never know, you might even have a pre gig pint with him and all this will be forgotten.
Cheers
Martin
Edit. I know this is not topic related, but it needed to be said. Please continue with your discussion. I hope this is only a brief hiatus.
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Who's the troll now Danny?
I was going through a tough time in my life when you continued to beat me down with that name.
I only ever remember calling ONE person troll on this board and that person wasn't you. That said, what you did was pretty inexcusable and pissed off A LOT of people (the vast majority of whom no longer post on this board; no, not JUST because of you, but you certainly did your bit to contribute, same as the element I DO call a troll, among others), regardless of whatever 'reasons' or excuses you say you had at the time; and I have no problem admitting I carried on 'beating you' down for it for some time when you came back trying to act like nothing had happened. I have no interest in dragging up the past at this stage, but I can easily tell people what it is that you did too if you want, and then we can let people decide for themselves?
I don't need anyone's ******* arm around me, thank you for your concern - I am extremely lucky and I have a real family and real friends, in real life, so I don't have to rely on pixels on a screen for comfort when I need some.
And to conclude this whole thing: I have the memory of an elephant and zero propensity or inclination to forgive. ever. anyone. Basically, piss me off once (properly, I'm not talking about minor spats) and you're done for for the rest of your (or my) life as far as I'm concerned, no going back. You can like it or not, and choose to engage with me or not accordingly. I'm sure the world is big enough for all parties concerned.
I'm not necessarily talking about you here, by the way; unlike many others who were genuinely upset by your shenanigans at the time I mainly found them rather pathetic, and while I have very little interest in getting to know you better you're by no means the worst here.
Everyone else, carry on debating as you please, I said my piece and don't see any reason for me to contribute further; like I said before, people can do what they like with my comments and warnings; you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
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Now, now, play nicely everyone.
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We should play the beautiful game. ::)
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This NMA one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3SFkEiucQg
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I have no agenda with anyone on here...far from it. I offered to shake Danny's hand and he seems to have declined.
As far as I'm concerned the matter is closed and I will (hopefully both of us) move on to brighter times in our lives.
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Just in case Danny is still reading and possibly interested in posting... I'd be very interested in his 'you're by no means the worst here...' comment?
I always thought this was the most respectful and decent Forum I ever read (and god knows, I'm active on a few), yes there have been 'incidents', but by and large, it's good people with respect for each other, despite sometimes differing opinions.
Who do you think are the worst, Danny, so they can have a chance to respond? And with citations, if possible?
Not being nasty, just trying to understand what you mean...
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This is a thread about the Eu referendum, it is not an exercise in name calling, spite or recriminations. I suggest you take your personal animosities off the board to the realm of personal messages if that is the road you want to go down. Or perhaps better still, stop insulting each other entirely and get back to what was, for the most part, an interesting discussion. There is, by far, too much vitriol and hate in this world and entirely more than enough to go around, that we really do not need more of it on this board.
Enough!
Viv Savage
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Well said Viv
Interesting point, from what I'm reading on a lot of us , though definitely not all of us are voting to leave kinda fairly surprising in some ways , when most of us are roughly best described as working class and maybe even left of centre politically, when the vast majority of left / left of centre politicians are firmly in the remain camp.
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So hopefully this thread is back on topic, in which case this is a good read.
http://www.digbylordjones.com/why-i-am-voting-to-leave-the-eu.html
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I have the memory of an elephant and zero propensity or inclination to forgive. ever. anyone.
Well that is sad, and troublesome to you, but if that is the way you are fine. We are all human and have opinions, biases, make mistakes, say the wrong thing, if everyone applies that logic then....well you can imagine.
But me, I'm more laid back these days. Not completely, but I try. Life and indeed death has taught me a lesson I think is something for everyone!
But let us move on.
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Just in case Danny is still reading and possibly interested in posting... I'd be very interested in his 'you're by no means the worst here...' comment?
I always thought this was the most respectful and decent Forum I ever read (and god knows, I'm active on a few), yes there have been 'incidents', but by and large, it's good people with respect for each other, despite sometimes differing opinions.
Who do you think are the worst, Danny, so they can have a chance to respond? And with citations, if possible?
Not being nasty, just trying to understand what you mean...
Hey, just leave it MR please! :)
By the tone and trajectory of those posts I think there is a lot of dark things that underpin those comments. So best left alone and the rest of us move on I think. As you say I think disagreements are generally handled very robustly, but pretty politely here by the vast majority.
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So hopefully this thread is back on topic, in which case this is a good read.
http://www.digbylordjones.com/why-i-am-voting-to-leave-the-eu.html
Hmm, not really a good read, I'm afraid. Just another biased rant. There are too may of these ill-informed opionion pieces bandied around by both camps.
I'm particularly perplexed by the accusations that the EU is undemocratic and that its representatives are not elected. Just because people can't be bothered to vote for their EU representatives doesn't mean that they don't have the opportunity to do so. There is a lot of valid criticism to be levelled at the EU but this is just grossly exaggerated. The EU is undemocratic in the way that England is undemocratic because members of the House of Lords are not elected. A bit of strecth, I think.
Here is an informative article about the decision making process in the EU: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/13/is-the-eu-undemocratic-referendum-reality-check
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So the European commission is unelected, so the UK ( its not just England) has 70 odd mep's out of well over 700 mep's . 60% of UK laws are made in Brussels . The UK had tried to use its veto over 70 times n lost every time.
Democracy ?
Think most of us would do away with the house of lords tomorrow, even if they have done / tried to do a couple of good things recently. Tax credits bill n tpd ( another European joke law imo ) spring to mind. Maybe the European Parliament is worth paying a £100 million for each week. Maybe Cameron is right and we will all lose our jobs and pensions
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Hopefully, someone's narcissism has been put to bed in this thread, and we can now continue a worthwhile discussion.
Despite clearly being in favour of Brexit, I have to say that both sides have been less than stellar in their performances. However, one of the most interesting comments I've heard was an interview with Alex Salmond today on RTE 1 in which he claimed that Jo Cox's murder has done the "Remain" camp a world of good in terms of swinging the vote in their favour. It's quite a bold statement, but if there's one thing you can depend on with auld Alex, it's that he gets straight to the point. He was subsequently asked why, if he thought Scotland would initiate a second referendum on independence, he didn't support the "Leave" campaign. His reply was it needs to be done on Scotland's own timing and not a second before. Interesting illustration of the "if at first you don't succeed" principle, but even more interesting is the notion that a referendum can be won or lost at the last minute for circumstances which no one could have foreseen.
Speaking of a democratic deficit in the EU, I believe it's only The EU Commission which can initiate legislation, further to the development of EU laws. It, therefore, has a virtual 'monopoly' through the sheer difficulty of removing EU Commissioners.
Both The Maastricht Treaty and The Treaty of Lisbon were to address democratic legitimacy and transparency, but the latter clearly strengthens the powers of the European Parliament at the expense of national ones. I fail to see how that strengthens democracy throughout the member states. I don't see how forcing Ireland to vote twice on Lisbon is an example of democracy when the electorate clearly rejected it the first time.
Johnz made a very valid point of the need to be more active in elections, but in legislative terms the European Parliament has become much more of a central focus. In the UK, we have undergone a significant process of de-centralisation in which Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own parliaments, so why do we want to see further erosion of this, and London, in favour of another body based in another member state which claims to speak for all?
Look at a map of Europe in 1914 and ask yourself if you want to return to three/four empires ruling most of the continent, or do you even want just one doing it? When WWI ended what was the most obvious outcome: the destruction of empires and the emergence of smaller nation states. This resulted again in 1989-90. And what?...now we want an untried superstate to bring us all under one umbrella. There is no common 'Europe' - it was never even there in the group of 12.
For me personally, I prefer such powers to be held at the level of national governments, mostly because I don't think any country's best interests are represented by bodies which are significantly removed from the 'action'. Too much, too fast and too little consideration for the overall effects of further integration - both political and monetary.
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You make some excellent points pumpkin and I'm not gonna disagree with any of them.
Well at least Alex Salmond had the balls to call it, were all disgusted at the murder of Jo Cox but sadly it might swing peoples vote n I'm sure that's the last thing she would have wanted.
Scotland would be crazy to call another independence vote anytime soon, Imo we can't afford to leave the UK just now and I voted yes last time, think we would be deep in the shit if the yes campaign had won. Anyway I don't get it, lets leave the UK but stay in Europe. Governments need to be more localized
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You make some excellent points pumpkin and I'm not gonna disagree with any of them.
Well at least Alex Salmond had the balls to call it, were all disgusted at the murder of Jo Cox but sadly it might swing peoples vote n I'm sure that's the last thing she would have wanted.
Scotland would be crazy to call another independence vote anytime soon, Imo we can't afford to leave the UK just now and I voted yes last time, think we would be deep in the shit if the yes campaign had won. Anyway I don't get it, lets leave the UK but stay in Europe. Governments need to be more localized
Likewise, Pol.
Auld Alex also has a good point, but you could hear a gasp or two from the presenter. Miss the frequency of his 'call a spade, a spade' approach in politics.
I don't get the 'let's leave the UK, but jump into a tightly centralised EU' argument either. I really don't, especially when the "Remain" argument is based on the concept that we're stronger in than out. An independent Scotland will not have the same power as a Scotland which is as a constituent part of the UK.
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Just one question. I'm off to France next week for the Somme Centenary,
Should I buy my Euros before or after the referendum?
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Well...funny how the pound has bounced back now that "Remain" is looking better to good...oh the fickle nature of it all....
I reckon "Remain" will win and the pound might be rewarded for its troubles for a week or two just to drive the point home loud and clear...
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Should I wait to make my next purchase from china then , where the prices on the website are in dollars
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I find it very interesting that a lot of people on this board want to vote to Leave, when most of the Labour leadership seem to want to remain (leaving Corbyn aside - I suspect that if the last leadership election had led to someone else being Labour leader, he would have been on the side of Leave). Is this part of a fundamental disconnect between the Labour leadership and their natural constituency? or a result pf the Labour leadership's general silence (presumably a lesson learned from the fate of Scottish labour?)
Personally I understand the argument about the democratic deficit in the EU, but see the way to change that as being within the EU, not out of it. I don't think we will be able to manage to negotiate decent trade agreements if we leave - too many EU politicians would want to make an example of us so other countries don't agitate to follow, and I wouldn't rely on Trump's promise to negotiate a deal quickly. If he gets in (God help America!) he'll be too busy doing other things. I'm not sure Hilary would make it her first priority either. Russia's economy is going to pot, and the BRICS countries are fundamentally protectionist. Which leaves us on our own, and notwithstanding the strength of our financial services industry, I am not sure that will be enough to prevent a lasting downturn.
That probably leaves me with a "better the devil you know" vote. but mixing the metaphor, I still want to sup with a long spoon and don't want further integration. To my mind the EU should remain a trade bloc and not become a federation.
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Leave / Remain
We have remained quiet on the big issue facing Brits tomorrow. However, as the moment approaches and the arguments on both sides get nastier and more threatening in tone, it’s hard not to say something – even if the opinions of a bunch of musicians have no particular significance.
Yes, from a purely selfish point of view, Remain is 100% in our personal interest. The existence of the EU is why it is so easy for us to regularly tour across Europe without the need for carnets and work permits (the reason we are unlikely to tour in the US in the near future) and stacks of expensive paperwork. Leave would make this all harder and more complicated for us, and for all similar musicians and artists crossing the Channel in either direction.
But that’s not our point. It seems that the referendum in the UK has become simply an opportunity to ‘stick it’ to the status quo and there are many, many good reasons to want to do this. And the more people at the top of society, from politicians to successful business people, ‘the good and the great’, tell us to vote Remain, the more likely people are to want to take the opportunity to say ‘**** you’. The Remain camp’s tactics have been all based on economic threats, but since the 1980s, and certainly since 2008, people have been entitled to believe that ‘economic benefits’ are entirely skewed towards those people that already have everything and are not, in any sense, shared by us all – so what difference will it make? When one ‘shock’ headline suggests that house prices would fall dramatically in case of Brexit, it’s hard not to think of anything that wouldn’t actually be better for the UK. We can see a good case for Leave, which is based on justified criticism of the EU, on the idea of promoting local economies over global, corporate interests and on true humanist, democratic, internationalist principles.
But that is not what is driving the Brexit campaign; the people screaming loudest for Leave terrify us; the little Englanders, the ‘get rid of EU regulation that holds back business interests’ brigade, the fascistic tendency to want to go back to a wholly invented past, and in some quarters the overt racism and sheer nastiness. And this fear is shared by millions of people across the Continent who want a different, better Europe for themselves too. We believe that we are better standing together with them. The real troubles that plague Britain, chronic underinvestment, the flow of money and resources from public into private hands, mind-boggling levels of inequality and the squeeze on public services are not the fault of immigration or the EU, but the choices of our own governments since the 1980s.
The murder of Jo Cox was not directly related to the EU debate, or the rise of Donald Trump or Marine Le Pen, or the threat of terrorism or any particular event but is difficult to disassociate it from the general tide of hatred sweeping the globe, not to see an echo of the 1930s in the rise of religious fundamentalists and right wing demagogues everywhere, feeding on and stirring up divisions between people where such divisions are normally, at worst, the minor irritations of people’s every day lives. Are we bored of peace? Have we forgotten what tribal conflict and war is actually like? There may be some logical principles in Brexit but it’s loudest and most powerful backers, who will be most empowered by a Leave victory and most in a position to benefit, have a ruthless and entirely right wing agenda.
We are reminded of a German comedian who, answering the question as to whether Britain is really part of Europe, simply said ‘buy a f****** map’.
NMA
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Thank you! I wholeheartedly agree.
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I think trying to pin many of Brexit’s arguments on a right-wing agenda is to obscure the important wider arguments. I think it’s fundamental to remember that the left has many significant issues with the EU and a long-standing uneasiness with it which, unfortunately, has almost become passé in light of the belief that Brexit has been dominated by the right. Silent ‘voices’ have followed.
Many on the left, including Corbyn himself at one time before he decided to keep quiet about something he has long condemned, strongly consider the EU as a ‘bastion’ of neoliberalism. For example, the EU will influence the NHS and privatisation further, because it is the EU which seeks to advance such concepts throughout the union. The EU strongly agrees with Supply-Side Policies, most of which are opposed by the left. The EU can easily do so when they can over-ride the concerns of national governments. Have we not seen enough of this in the PIIGS? It is also the EU which preaches the need for austerity, a non-negotiable obligation, and promotes the adoption and use of the Euro, eliminating national control over monetary policy (interest rates, exchange rates, money supply). It is the EU which is firmly in the hands of big business. The EU simply fails to meet many fundamental left-leaning policies. Moreover, it controls monetary and supply-side policies, leaving only fiscal policies in the hands of national governments for the time being. One of the EU’s main aims is a centralised super-state. I think we can all agree on that one. The very notion is undemocratic; it is a tool for multinationals and globalisation, both ideas rather abhorrent to the left.
The majority of the British population is sceptical of the EU, and reluctant to go further down this road of political and economic integration. Why are we so sceptical when a country like Greece, which has suffered immensely, isn’t at all at the level of our Euro-scepticism? Yet both countries agree on this: the European super-state is dominated by Germany, as France has consistently lost political and economic influence over the last number of years, whilst the UK has all but lost interest. Has anyone seen Wolfgang Schauble’s comments about the UK and Greece? About the need to keep member states in line and punish those who don't? The House of Commons library research claims that, in terms of regulations and directives, half of all UK laws originate from Brussels and cannot be reversed. This is clearly a loss of sovereignty for all of its member states from the UK to Greece - the two countries at the forefront of a possible exit.
In terms of security and peace, we can sit here in Western Europe and think we’re doing a ‘splendid’ job, because we’re not affected by our own ****-ups. Or you can note, with that awful phrase ‘due diligence’, just how much the EU made a mess out of Yugoslavia and, more recently, Ukraine, because it couldn’t stick to its principles. It caved in to stronger powers. In both examples, the US and Russia had to tip the balance, simply because the EU couldn’t make up its mind and put collective words into collective actions – yet it asks for greater collective developments from its members. It argues for an EU Army which simply wouldn’t be able to agree on anything, because each state has different interests.
The main legacy of European Enlightenment is not, as intended, the collectivisation of political power in the hands of the people - rather, it is in the hands of a technocratic elite with scant regard for democracy. Where exactly was the debate on the issues of bank bailouts? Where was it not practiced? In Iceland, a non-EU state. The freedom of movement which could be argued as 'a race to the bottom in terms of wages'? A common currency, yet no common system of taxation? Where is the discussion of such issues?
I know an argument which would go even further: that a single currency and a single government facilitate the interests of multinationals and globalisation. What else is the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) about? Would this not allow the NHS to be a target for multinational health-care companies? Education to be prioritised by multinational companies with more interest in profits than educational excellent? Why is there no vote on this issue? Little media coverage? Broad acceptance by mainstream political parties? What about the Investor State Dispute Settlement which will allow businesses to file a lawsuit against national governments if profits are infringed upon? Again, where is the coverage of such measures in mainstream media? The entire debate has been simplified beyond belief and the real issues often discarded.
The argument of backing the EU in this referendum, simply because the Tories are supposedly against it is weak at best and misguided by denial of the facts. Was it not the Tories who brought the UK into the EEC in ’73? A referendum on joining was only granted two years later. Thatcher and Major yapped about the EU, yet did nothing to remove the UK from it. If you want an illustration of how far Labour have fallen from their initial opposition, look no further than Blair who would have adopted the Euro, consigning the pound to history. The Euro itself has initiated untold misery throughout the PIIGS, yet Brussels responds with what exactly? Demand for greater powers, greater centralisation.
A significant factor behind UKIP’s success is that it has pulled Tory Euro-sceptics and traditional Labour voters, largely because the likes of Corbyn and Blair before him have forgotten their bread and butter electorate. UKIP have capitalised on discontent, largely because Labour has ignored such concerns from their own traditional electorate and the Tories don't have the balls, once and for all, to deal with this topic beyond some 1922 club for cigar smokers.
Even more stunning is that the small, independent parties which prioritise localisation of politics and greater devolution (Greens, Plaid Cymru and the SNP) refuse outright to challenge the aggressive centralisation of the EU and all its organs.
In words no immortal than this: “Get…Me…Out” should the EU continue down its current path without significant reforms.
If we remain, we accept this status quo and forfeit the opportunity, indeed the right, to question it in future. It is too steep a price to pay. We will be made an example of, regardless the outcome.
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(http://i.imgur.com/wdxZQ1A.gif)
Well said Pumpkin
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Pumpkin. The left and right will argue til its blue in the face. That is the way of things. You cast your eyes to the past to look at root and cause, but as history is set, no-one knows how a different history would look.
Rather than blame one side or t'other, it comes down to simple things. Do I beleive my future is better governed by the EU or by a British government? Do i beleive the freedoms I have, should be denied to others because their country is less well off? Do I beleive migration or EU business regs are crippling the UK?
Ultimately do I beleive Britain was/will be better without the EU?
Thats the crux of it.
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I would like to thank the band for taking the time to add to the debate.
I've made my mind up and will use my democratic vote. At least I can't be called a little Englander lol , seriously after Scottish independence vote recently I'm had enough of politics for a while. Lets accept the outcome what ever side your on .
Would also like to thank the other board members for what in the main has been a excellent debate. Will see some of you on the other side and enjoy a pint together
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(http://i.imgur.com/wdxZQ1A.gif)
Well said Pumpkin
Indeed.
Agree with you Pumpkin, it is wrong to turn this referendum into a left V right wing debate. Both camps can find advantages and disadvantages. I do believe Cameron will do very well out of it if we chose to stay after potentially introducing some appeasements for the millions who voted for out.
Many have been calling for this referendum for years. A once in a lifetime opportunity which is unlikely to come around again.
Have to say, I have found the claims and propaganda from both sides in the process to be truly disheartening. The misleading claims, lies, exaggerated possibilities, Cameron and all his scenarios of what "might" happen if we leave from economic collapse to war. All very undemocratic. Clearly many had their choice made as soon as it was announced, but with all the B/S, it has been very unfair on the many who have had no deep opinion either way and have just wanted informed impartial advice.
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I reckon ive just about nailed my euros for next week.
Cheers.... 1.23. (its going up!)
may mean an extra pint in an estaminet. or Toc H coffee will be cheaper. We will wait and see...
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It has really been such a relief to be able to read arguments pro and contra delivered n a mostly sensible way - thank you.
Good luck with the voting today, whatever the outcome, I hope the other side is going to accept it without starting trouble.
For whatever it is worth - North Rhine Westphalia wants you guys to stay. Not the politicians, no, the people - a big regional radio station interviewed people and they did and online poll - and a large majority really wants you to stay in. ;-) We will still love you should you vote out, though. :)
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The mention of TTIP earlier is a very good point. It is in many ways more of a threat to democracy than the EU because it potentially cedes all control of all public services not to an elected government or to an association of elected governments but to corporate/financial institutions. And who has been gunning hardest for this in EU? The UK and both wings of the Tory party. And when the Leave campaign leaders talk in flowery tones about separate trade deals between the UK and the US, let's remember that this is exactly what they have in mind; it could even be agreed (with great fanfare) within a couple of years and you can bet there will be no Referendum on it.
There is no general election planned for after the Referendum and so if the Leave side wins, we will have no say in what kind of 'Leave' it's going to be. So whoever wins it's going to be a Tory vision, protection of wealth and privilege and the continued flow of public funds into private hands. So much for the great democratisation. JS
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Thanks, NMA, for a most eloquent and balanced summary of the situation... I had composed a lengthy message for this thread earlier today but that one got lost in BT's continuously failing broadband infrastructure. :)
I have to echo how disheartening, and nasty the debate has become... and I wholeheartedly agree that it's mostly down to this simplistic tunnel vision on net pay, control (what bollocks that entire topic is...) and immigration driven by a rampant, populist, right-wing agenda. It was to be expected and one can blame Cameron for not realising this before he thought of this referendum. The same happens elsewhere (e.g. in Switzerland), popular votes foster populism. That is not to say that there are reasons for debate about the value and implementation of the EU from all angles, but Brexit is not about this (leaving has only one certainty: uncertainty... is this desirable?). Can't help myself seeing this as nothing but a last attempt by a dwindling empire to regain old glory - a rather emotional affair and dangerous game given that the decision will be dumped onto the future generation of this country.
It seems obvious that a possible Brexit will not lead to any benefits for those affected most by inequality (Billy Bragg: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/english-working-class-victims-brexit-vote-false-patriotism ), rather much the opposite given the political swing to the right this will cause... a prime minister Boris is a nightmare in my book, and I don't see how years of insecurity, nasty discussions with EU states on common treaties will benefit the people. Inequality in the UK is not a consequence of EU politics. It is plainly wrong how Pumpkin (as usual) attempts to tweak his agenda into others' words ("many of Brexit’s arguments on a right-wing agenda") - no matter what arguments were there in the first place, if they have been hijacked and will further be abused by those in future power after Brexit, it will have little to do with "important wider arguments". Having said that, I still do not to see a convincing realistic, sensible argument for what Brexit will *actually* deliver and improve... and that is not to say I defend the EU.
If one is skeptical of something, running away fixes it? If Germany is powerful now, how do you expect it to be after Brexit, with Frankfurt becoming the defacto financial center of Europe and the UK having zero say inside the EU? I cannot stand Schaeuble's austerity and snide stabs at other countries, but this will not disintegrate by one member state running away. TTIP is scandalous, but what will Brexit do against it? You truly believe Johnson wouldn't jump into getting exactly the same kind of deal with the US? The only point would be that the US will not be very interested in rushing into a deal with an insignificant country such as the UK (compared to the scale of Europe, China etc). But yes, Brexit will propel Germany to a huge increase in power and influence, politically and economically. Equally, security and peace only work via international cooperation, building higher walls has the opposite effect. UK science/technology/education (that's my sector) will take a massive hit and probably throw the UK way behind: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2015/12/05/debunking-the-myths-about-british-science-after-an-eu-exit . That's not scaremongering, but facts.
Neoliberal, undemocratic, bureaucratic? I can immediately think of a number of countries including the UK for which these descriptors are spot-on, e.g. the very vote today excluding millions of citizens, and Thatcher probably being the one to blame for introducing this neoliberal fallacy to Europe in the first place. EU political culture is only a reflection of national politics, it is not a country. Is this all a reason to run away from it? I'm all for a fundamental change of the system as this neoliberal syndrome is not sustainable. But not via something so ill-posed and poisoned as Brexit. Pumpkin, you couldn't be more wrong in blindly assuming that out means you can fix it. Where has this ever worked? I trust the EU has followed this debate with open ears, and the most productive course of action would be to work on issues together. You forfeit the opportunity by running away - the EU will not run after the UK should it decide to sail away in isolation.
I'm quite surprised as to how many board members on here subscribe to these nationalist emotions (sorry, that's what such a vote is about), and it is shocking for a European living in the UK how racist and xenophobic large fractions of society actually are (sadly of course, this happens all over the place). Being a German citizen, I am constantly reminded of the early 1930s these days. We're in this together on this most blood-thirsty continent... to try and avoid escalation at all cost. Brexit will only foster this, and that is a core reason why I cannot see "leave" as a viable option whatsoever, and believe it's a hugely dangerous path to take. It's not a vote of good against bad, it's about the less worse.
I found this summary of the key concerns quite accessible:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-five-questions-to-answer-before-you-vote?CMP=fb_gu
And here's how this whole saga feels:
http://newsthump.com/2016/06/20/majority-of-lemmings-in-favour-of-jumping-off-cliff/
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I dropped out of this thread a while back when (in common with the wider debate in the real world) the temperature started rising but now here we are on the only day that actually matters.
At the start I was leaning towards remain and now I'm pretty convinced it's the best option for the UK.
The link that Semmelnknodoln gave us to the summary of key concerns is very good.
If you are going to vote leave please just take a moment to calmly consider whether it is really the EU which is responsible for the things that are wrong and if you are prepared to accept what an exit vote will bring in the future.
BTW - postal vote was Remain
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The mention of TTIP earlier is a very good point. It is in many ways more of a threat to democracy than the EU because it potentially cedes all control of all public services not to an elected government or to an association of elected governments but to corporate/financial institutions. And who has been gunning hardest for this in EU? The UK and both wings of the Tory party. And when the Leave campaign leaders talk in flowery tones about separate trade deals between the UK and the US, let's remember that this is exactly what they have in mind; it could even be agreed (with great fanfare) within a couple of years and you can bet there will be no Referendum on it.
There is no general election planned for after the Referendum and so if the Leave side wins, we will have no say in what kind of 'Leave' it's going to be. So whoever wins it's going to be a Tory vision, protection of wealth and privilege and the continued flow of public funds into private hands. So much for the great democratisation. JS
TTIP is an incredibly important point. Labour’s silence on the issue is deafening, and UKIP is the only UK party opposed to it in the European Parliament from what I can see – dubious reasons acknowledged. I am amazed there is not more opposition in the UK and EU. The European Parliament voted 436 to 231 to accept TTIP, and the UK would do likewise – given the widespread absence across the political spectrum of those against it.
You’re absolutely right: there will be no referendum on TTIP and ISDS (the Investor State Dispute Settlement mentioned earlier). However, both desperately need to be openly debated in public across all the member states. There needs to be serious consideration of what all this implies and what its effects will be. Again, no real discussion – even the negotiations are conducted in secret.
If “Remain” wins, then Cameron will celebrate his second referendum victory and portray himself as the master navigator who twice steered away the threat of the dissolution of the UK – either in the form of Scottish independence or withdrawal from the EU. He will crank his own pedestal higher.
Should he lose, the Tories seek his replacement and a general election is likely called. Corbyn will also have to reconsider his position – win or lose. He was elected, partly because of the rising dissent from traditional Labour supporters, but he really has failed to deliver and further alienated many Brexit supporters in the party who thought he was a sure bet to lead a Brexit campaign.
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There is no general election planned for after the Referendum and so if the Leave side wins, we will have no say in what kind of 'Leave' it's going to be. So whoever wins it's going to be a Tory vision, protection of wealth and privilege and the continued flow of public funds into private hands. So much for the great democratisation. JS
to be fair we did have a general election in 2015 which the Tories won. So we as a country voted for a Tory vision. And in their manifesto was a promise of an In-Out Referendum, within the life of the current parliament, so the country's already voted for that vision.
Having said that the same could be said for the Scottish Referendum. That became very much an independent Scotland = the SNP's vision for Scotland. I felt that the pro-Independence party could have generated a greater appeal had they emphasised that independence meant their own choice over all things - whether that was the SNP's vision, Scottish Labour's vision, or a revived Scottish Tory party. But that's looking from the outside in.
I guess the Leave party have made a good deal of noise about taking choice back into our own hands. And if the Leave campaign do win, then they will have 4 years to the next election when if the general population wants it they can kick them out. The same for Remain.
And for those who want a bit of good news, the Mirror referenced a poll carried out upto midnight last night that showed a 55% remain vote.
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@ Semmelnknödöln
The argument for Brexit has been increasingly associated with right-wing populism, yet it fails to take into consideration long-standing Euro-scepticism on the left – where it has always been stronger.
There is a certain UK MP who supposedly claims that only the UK should decide "how many immigrants we have, who we deport, what the levels of taxation are and what our foreign policy should be". It isn’t Nigel Farage either. Immigration is a key issue, and there are very large rumblings in Labour about the effects of ‘cheap, mobile labour’ which doesn’t sit well with many UK workers. UKIP have exploited it, simply because Labour doesn’t know how to handle it in public. In private, it’s a different matter.
Regardless, the issue of Euro-scepticism has long been rampant across the political divide here for different reasons. Brexit is clearly not about left and right.
I am not ‘blindly assuming’ anything. I am not interested in being a member of it in its current form. I’ve already made my case for that. I think the best direction is to leave and it is not a decision to run away which constitutes different implications altogether.
The Americans had the same idea about reform not being open to negotiation in 1776, and they hardly collapsed as a nascent nation after leaving the might of the British Empire against all odds. In fact, the opposite happened. The decision made then caused the UK to re-examine its foreign policies altogether, or risk losing further colonies.
It’s debateable whether the EU would see one member state’s decision to leave as a call for further consideration of reform, but it is certainly bound to galvanise other movements which are sceptical of the EU. For example, would Syriza and others not see Brexit as a boost for themselves? As justification that another member state opposes EU directives? Anti-EU parties are gaining momentum everywhere. This decision could make or break them.
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Well I've made my mark ( wee wax crayon n awe that) (ref Tommy Sheridan) . I'm all for free trade and the free movement of the right workers. What I'm against is regulations made by non elected officials. Personally I thought that the EU was ok if flawed until the tpd came along, totally biased I know. As a employee I want good rights but I want small businesses to be able to employ people as well, don't forget they make up 85% of the employment market.
Anyway I think remain will win.
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First time ive been to the polling station and theres queues. Right hive of activity. Well if nothing people feel strongly. I wonder if this will be a bigger turn out than the Election!?
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First time ive been to the polling station and theres queues. Right hive of activity. Well if nothing people feel strongly. I wonder if this will be a bigger turn out than the Election!?
I'm thinking this to.
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Well if it is the case, its probably cos folks actually beleive they can change something!
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The result is supposed to announced from Manchester at 7am tomorrow.
Sorry to be a depressive, untrusting and possibly paranoid fool, but who else suspects that if it doesn't go quite the way Cameron and his pals want, there might be some kind of 'technical problem with the results'... :-\
It wouldn't be the first time it happened in politics.
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I voted out and regardless what you voted I hope you did it for what you believe to be right.
One thing that has really pissed me off me is the constant slandering of Brexit voters to some how have some right wing agenda.
I can assure anyone that I have absolutely no problem with Immigration or Refugees and last year invited the local German Refugee housing woman to my house with a couple of newly arrived Syrians to sort them with curtains, crockery and other such household stuff so please do not tar me with the baldy headed knuckle dragging fraternity.
For me the EU referendum was about getting away from the corrupt unelected and unaccountable monster that Brusssels has become nothing more and nothing less.
Its a train crash waiting to happen and we had the chance to get off.
Our politicians are no angels but at least we can vote them out every few years if we choose to.
What ever the outcome the world will keep turning and we will still find excuses for war. There is no profit in peace.
Straight on for the days ahead.
Whatever you voted for good luck and cheers.
(http://i.imgur.com/1KezcTa.gif)
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Vote cast. Completely at peace with my decision, regardless of end result. Accepting of the future. Immensely glad that the utter fooktwattery of the whole thing will finally be over.
:)
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Agreed Ray, me too.
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Its not over yet, we need to put up with that smug bastard Cameron gloating for several months now, I wonder if the queen will be purring this time. At least Scotland got some extra powers lol
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Seems like, at nearly midnight, it's 96% remain and 4% leave...
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Seems like, at nearly midnight, it's 96% remain and 4% leave...
I imagine thats a quote of the Gibraltar result. At this time, around 3 a.m. if is hovering around the 50/50 line. Its like watching a penalty shoot-out. Some interesting results. Scotland in, Wales out. North East out, London where all the big money is, well and truly in.
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Fcking hell can't believe it, just woke up and checked the news app on the phone. Were Oot
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and Cameron about to resign, apparently.
What have we done?
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We're out. Cameron Resigns. Corbyn challenge rumored to be on the way. It's exciting ain't it! :D
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Seems like, at nearly midnight, it's 96% remain and 4% leave...
Oops, you are in for a shock when you wake up MR! ;)
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Well that's that then.................
Be interesting to re-visit this thread in a few years and see how it turned out after all and whether anyone would do differently.
Good luck Britain I think you'll need it.
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Fuckety ****. Sad.
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Well that's that then.................
Be interesting to re-visit this thread in a few years and see how it turned out after all and whether anyone would do differently.
Good luck Britain I think you'll need it.
No one knows. As they didn't when the two sides were spouting bullcrap about what would happen in or out, that is the risk I guess.
But in the end I think this country is full of clever, resourceful people and in the short term it is going to be tough no question, but my hunch in the medium term is we will be just fine. :)
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I think so too. I am however avoiding the news because the world is about to collapse and a pound is worth three biscuits and a button.
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Sad :( :( :(
I think it`s better to be a member and fighting for better conditions than beeing outside - but I`m a german and had not the right to vote :(
Brexit now - I don`t believe that the brexit voters get what they were dreaming (and promised) of getting
Clever and resourceful people are enough on this planet, but living in the wrong country or having the false passport - who is speaking and fighting for you?
Good luck for the future - Britain and for many others involved in this
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Soooo
clearly, NOW is when I should I have waited to order my Winter Super Deluxe Bundle from America.
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Why?
English pound is down and ordering is cheaper ? ???
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Why?
English pound is down and ordering is cheaper ? ???
Well I was sort of making a joke, but it actually IS cheaper now than when I ordered it before - I just ordered myself a second package I am going to give to a friend here.
About 7 American dollars cheaper. This time, with shipping it is 78 dollars for the package.
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They say every cloud has a silver lining; I hope that in this case the silver lining is UKIP realising that as the populace voted for an exit then there is no longer a raison d'etre for UKIP, so they disband the party and sod off.
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sorry, that joke - is fine for you to pay less, but not for the brexit/remain ones - they have to deal with that and a lot of voters didn`t know that this will happen :(
Why?
English pound is down and ordering is cheaper ? ???
Well I was sort of making a joke, but it actually IS cheaper now than when I ordered it before - I just ordered myself a second package I am going to give to a friend here.
About 7 American dollars cheaper. This time, with shipping it is 78 dollars for the package.
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Oh, woke up today and heard the news in a terrible hangover.
Strange to hear this. As I've said I've been always on behalf of getting out of power unions whether what they are but just recently I've maybe been moved a bit by some quite good opinions about staying. Then this happens. To be honest, I'm not so sure anymore was it good... But let's try to be positive and expect good things, brothers and sisters.
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sorry, that joke - is fine for you to pay less, but not for the brexit/remain ones - they have to deal with that and a lot of voters didn`t know that this will happen :(
Look, Im on the West Coast of America and despite being married to a family of different European immigrants, I am pretty removed from this - admittedly. But, how did so many not know this would happen when I read so many comments here (just this morning - havent logged on in a long time) that people seem to have been pretty on the fence about all this? What exactly do they have to "deal with"?
Educate me.
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OK. A surprising result. And I did stay up until about 3am, but really thought the REMAIN voters would win it in the end when the London votes came through.
They didn't, but it was so close. It could easily have gone the other way. In my silly opinion, what lost it was the REMAIN campaign and their so-called (by the general media) 'Project Fear' campaign.
They could have presented a rational, sensible and reasonably calm argument. Nope. The arrogant bastards laid it on thick with talk of a new world war, the pound falling to the worth of a few buttons, a gazillion non-whites moving in next door to YOU, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria! (yes, I'm now quoting GHOSTBUSTERS, that's now despairing I am of the whole thing ;) ). Most intelligent people could see through it and make their own minds up. But that tiny (yet, crucially, VITAL) few percent were antagonised, annoyed and took a knee-jerk reaction into the OUT box.
I can't deny it. I voted out, as I've said before. And I stand by my vote for calm and rational reasons that I'm not going to debate until this whole thing calms down. Too many people are upset today.
The REMAIN campaign blew it for themselves. Cameron's out? Fine, he can call his mate Tony B on how to make bundles of cash after being forced out of your job because you're an f-ing embarrassment (he'll be fine... ::) )
What I can't stand are the sore Remainers who are accusing 52% of this countries voters as being racist, under-educated and practically worthless...
Oh, and there's no guarantee that Boris will be the next Prime Minister, plenty of other Tories tossers will come crawling out of the woodwork to say 'Hey, look at me, I'd be AWESOME at being PM, I went to Oxford and the Bullingdon Club...' >:(
Wow... what a day. Regardless of whichever way you think it will go, you have to admit it's a historic one.
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What kinda got me that the vote was won by 1.4m votes, when 2.8m vapers ecig users were totally ignored, they had the chance to change ignore the tdp it wasn't even a full European law but a directive a couple of weeks. Lord Callan put the wheels in motion but labour wouldn't back it. I'm not saying for a second that was the only reason behind their vote, but as someone who is active on some vaping forums and watches related youtube stuff a lot of people were fcking angry. The whole thing certainly gave me a lesson in what unelected European committee's were capable of. Who knows maybe it would have made a difference
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Never in British politics has there been worse leadership than Cameron and Corbyn on an internal issue. Both men were against the EU, then when party leadership came a-calling, they conveniently forgot this. Both men conveniently forgot how Euro-scepticism has loomed large in British politics since the end of WWII in both parties. They were both hopeless during the campaign.
Cameron couldn't even control the issue in his own party and he failed to learn the lessons behind the downfall of both Thatcher and Major where Tory infighting over the EU proved fatal. He was always a lightweight in this and in way too deep for his own good. Euro-scepticism took down much more experienced and hardened Tory leaders.
Likewise, Corbyn had a convenient 'forgetful moment' when he signed up to "Remain" that he himself was probably one of the most obvious "Leave" campaigners in town. In fact, he had built much of his career on it. He forgot that Labour were always the leaders in Euro-sceptisim; he turned his back on his grassroots; he now pays the price. The bread and butter Labour base has had more than enough of being sidelined by careerists and Blairites. When it got someone who 'seemed' (and I use the term lightly) authentic to old Labour values, they got their eye wiped again. Corbyn has even cost the party Scotland - an amazing fact when you think how Labour monopolised Scotland for yonks.
I never had any time for either, so I was delighted to see both pull on the "Remain" kit. The two of them, with barely a teaspoon of sincerity between them, were a gift to the "Leave" campaign...yet I still thought they would squeak out a victory, especially with every single major international institution backing them. Given this, the fact they didn't succeed is an opportunity for the rest of the EU member states to examine their own relationship with the EU. Whatever anyone thinks of Farage and Johnson, you couldn't discount the fact they were more committed to their cause than Cameron or Corbyn. They certainly had a greater desire to win.
Who knows...this might be the beginning of 1989 for Western Europe now; in other words, Brussels loses their satellite states to popular uprisings. Only time will tell.
As far as I'm concerned, the EU got the serious blow it well deserved. In fact, it has been 'courting' it for years.
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OK. A surprising result. And I did stay up until about 3am, but really thought the REMAIN voters would win it in the end when the London votes came through.
They didn't, but it was so close. It could easily have gone the other way. In my silly opinion, what lost it was the REMAIN campaign and their so-called (by the general media) 'Project Fear' campaign.
They could have presented a rational, sensible and reasonably calm argument. Nope. The arrogant bastards laid it on thick with talk of a new world war, the pound falling to the worth of a few buttons, a gazillion non-whites moving in next door to YOU, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria! (yes, I'm now quoting GHOSTBUSTERS, that's now despairing I am of the whole thing ;) ). Most intelligent people could see through it and make their own minds up. But that tiny (yet, crucially, VITAL) few percent were antagonised, annoyed and took a knee-jerk reaction into the OUT box.
I can't deny it. I voted out, as I've said before. And I stand by my vote for calm and rational reasons that I'm not going to debate until this whole thing calms down. Too many people are upset today.
The REMAIN campaign blew it for themselves. Cameron's out? Fine, he can call his mate Tony B on how to make bundles of cash after being forced out of your job because you're an f-ing embarrassment (he'll be fine... ::) )
What I can't stand are the sore Remainers who are accusing 52% of this countries voters as being racist, under-educated and practically worthless...
Oh, and there's no guarantee that Boris will be the next Prime Minister, plenty of other Tories tossers will come crawling out of the woodwork to say 'Hey, look at me, I'd be AWESOME at being PM, I went to Oxford and the Bullingdon Club...' >:(
Wow... what a day. Regardless of whichever way you think it will go, you have to admit it's a historic one.
Michael Gove has been touted. God help us.
Well I aint a sore remainer, but Im devastated. Absolutely devastated. I do think we'll be ok long term, but jesus the news is bleak right now. We just need Cornwall to declare independence and we've got a full set. Im gonna hibernate a few months i think.
I will just add, as Ive said before, migration was the key issue for me. Rightfully, people have concerns re housing, the changing face of Britain etc etc, and I wouldnt be stupid enough to call it racist. Its not. It wasnt a recipe for success for sure. But hey its done. We move on.
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Actually, a lot of the so-called 'untouchable' subjects were very much an issue in this. It was a nasty campaign, but emotions are running high for a lot of people after years of being ignored. This is where Labour really failed - trying to sweep it under the carpet...
I wouldn't be surprised if the Tories go for a virtual unknown next...seems to be the pattern.
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Never in British politics has there been worse leadership than Cameron and Corbyn on an internal issue.
Amen to that brother! :)
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Actually, a lot of the so-called 'untouchable' subjects were very much an issue in this. It was a nasty campaign, but emotions are running high for a lot of people after years of being ignored. This is where Labour really failed - trying to sweep it under the carpet...
I wouldn't be surprised if the Tories go for a virtual unknown next...seems to be the pattern.
Well whoever it is of whatever political colour, they had better be laser focussed and clear on where we go from here. I won't lie, part of me is happy we went out, but a larger part of me is very worried about my business. Being in construction, certainly linked to projects that use Spanish, Portugese, German etc as well as UK contract staff we have just jumped off a cliff where we cannot see the bottom for mist and verbiage.
So whoever it is had better bloody start clearing that mist and ensuring our trade agreements are in place as soon as possible. The possibility of damage to our credit rating (as has already started) and barriers to trade will be so damaging it will make the early 1980s look like a kids party! One that we may never recover from.
Certainly I have spent the weekend with colleague looking at spending less, shoring up current projects and discussing strategy. I absolutely won't be spending on new projects until I see where we are going. And I suspect most businesses are doing the same, which will do the economy no good at all.
Scotland independence calls all the time have become like tinnitus to me, sorry Pol! :) But they may have the right idea. Because if they do go independent and are allowed back into the EU, then business will flow through Scotland out of England and Wales. The opposite of what might have happened if they had voted for independence last time. Perhaps?
BUT before everyone gets too depressed, I am an optimist and I think you should be too. We are a talented bunch, with a sly self deprecation on these islands and I think we will come through it better. My issue is in what timescale. My guess is we will lash some quasi deal together with the EU that isn't quite independence. We will see.
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I am truly saddened by this. There is a certain irony in the fact that many of those who voted 'leave' will bear the greatest impact of its implications. So it probably won't be all that exciting for the low waged or those in the periphery etc. but there you are. I also know that most people who voted 'leave' are not uneducated, racist bigots but the fact remains that this plays right into the hands of the far right all across Europe.
As far as Scotland is concerned they shouldn't rush into anything. I also doubt that a second referendum would yield a different result. With all this uncertainty it will most likely be a case of 'better the devil you know'. But who knows.
I don't want to add to all the ugliness that is unfolding everywhere. It's done now. Time to get on with things to make sure that this doesn't turn into an even greater mess. To that extent it is paramount that the actual Brexit is as swift as possible. I fear that it will be two years of procrastination and endless bartering.
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Jeez... these 'remain' folks demanding a second referendum... ::)
I appreciate their upset, truly I do, and I respect their opinion and anger. There is the possibility of both good and bad scenarios after Thursdays result. Whatever happens, so be it.
But, FFS, this isn't the X-Factor. You can't appeal to Simon in the hope of a bit of 'weepy-face' will change the result.
A lot of people feel aggrieved because a 52% majority on a 72% voter turnout means that only 37.44% of the British voting population voted to leave the European Union. I get that. But only 35.52% voted to stay in. Or, to put it another way, over a million people chose OUT rather than IN. Also, only 72% of the UK voted? Then the opinions of the other 28% are worthless, if they couldn't be arsed to vote, then bollocks to them.
You can't change the rules after the game is over.
But what the heck... let's have a second referendum (emphasis on DUMB)... if the remainers win it, well... best out of three? And so it will go on... :(
It's done and dusted. Accept it.
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Agreed internet petitions have gone to far this time. Real democracy has spoken. Its not fcking facebook the unlike button means nothing
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"In the name of the people"
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Agreed internet petitions have gone to far this time. Real democracy has spoken. Its not fcking facebook the unlike button means nothing
Exactly!
If the 71% of under 25s who DIDN'T vote had bothered to get off their lazy arses and vote, we wouldn't be having this conversation anyway. If you cannot be bloody bothered, don't complain when you don't get the result you want.
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Very sad that 71% of under 25s didn't vote, I guess that they were too busy liking cute cats on facebook.
See the labour party have also started to implode, Hilary Benn sacked n half the shadow cabinet resigning worrying times with the Tories split in two.
"The ship she sails without a captain"
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I made sure my 22 year old voted.
I took him with me.
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While I wholly agree,.if I can play devils advocate, the outies banged a continual drum that they wanted out, and got a referendum. Who therefore is to say, and has the right to say that at some point in the future (not now) opinions will change and the country may look to go back? Nothing is ever set. Im fairly.confident if remain won, that wouldnt be the end of it, so i think a little bit of reason and understanding is not unwarranted. For now it is what it is and I accept that. I do know of families that have fell out over it :-\
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ha..'better the devil you know'..a woman next to me at the bank talking to the teller said that exact same thing as she handed in a huge wad of money...( not saying she ddn't earn it..just thought it was funny)
given the growing inequality in distribution of wealth it's easy to see why the map demograhic shows that only the affluent cities and the posh areas north of london had a higher percentage o 'ins'. The increase in this inequality has been getting steadily worse since we joined the EU...have to worry that that isn't going to change regardless now
but yes, we really need to be focussed now instead of all this usual negativity and sour grapes..:p
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Agreed internet petitions have gone to far this time. Real democracy has spoken. Its not fcking facebook the unlike button means nothing
Exactly!
If the 71% of under 25s who DIDN'T vote had bothered to get off their lazy arses and vote, we wouldn't be having this conversation anyway. If you cannot be bloody bothered, don't complain when you don't get the result you want.
Agreed! I heard the figure was more like 64%, but the point still stands. If they could have dragged themselves from f-ing Instagram (or whatever 'dem kids' are into nowadays) and actually VOTED, who knows, it might have tipped the result. I keep reading posts on other Forums about how 'the old' ruined the future of the youngsters by voting leave... NO! They ruined it for themselves! Hell, they didn't even have to do anything as basic as showing up at a polling station, they could have registered for a postal vote and done it at their convenience!
And, please, don't anyone use the excuse that 'well, they're young, they didn't understand...' ::) If you're over 18, you're an adult and with that comes adult responsibilities. Decades ago, someone of a similar age would be sent to fight a fuckin' war. I'm seeing a lot of spoilt children in adult bodies just moaning, basically.
Yes, I am officially a grumpy old man, but you know, make your bed etc.
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Aye we had to stay off the voters roll to avoid the poll tax lol
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Jesus wept. This country is on the verge of ripping itself apart. If the nastiness before was bad, it was nothing. What a bloody horrible, bitter country we are becoming.
On an aside, has anyone seen George Osbourne? ;D
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Jesus wept. This country is on the verge of ripping itself apart. If the nastiness before was bad, it was nothing. What a bloody horrible, bitter country we are becoming.
On an aside, has anyone seen George Osbourne? ;D
Ha! Yes, old Ozzy does seem to be keeping a low profile... haven't seen much of Davey Boy since Friday either...
Perhaps they're in hiding in a little caravan somewhere, huddled around a little heater and saying 'well, we fucked that one up, didn't we?' :D
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Only find some german sources about voters and age -
More than 70% of the younger ones voted and most of these ones wanted to remain ???
Could someone please post a link of the statistic other way round?
Agreed internet petitions have gone to far this time. Real democracy has spoken. Its not fcking facebook the unlike button means nothing
Exactly!
If the 71% of under 25s who DIDN'T vote had bothered to get off their lazy arses and vote, we wouldn't be having this conversation anyway. If you cannot be bloody bothered, don't complain when you don't get the result you want.
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This seems to be fairly accurate... yes, 36% of 18-24 voted and only 58% of 25-34 year olds... let me know if the link doesn't work and I'll try again...
https://twitter.com/SkyData/status/746700869656256512
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Maybe Mr Osborne should read this.
"Hello, world. Britain has dared to dream and is open for business
article by rohan silva
Three swift confidence-boosting measures will convince people at home and investors abroad that we have a dynamic future
The “leave” campaign’s slogan was “take control”. Well, now we truly are in control. I don’t mean that in the narrow sense of taking control of certain policy areas from the EU. I mean that we’re in charge of our own fate as a country. The choice we make about how we react to Thursday’s momentous vote will affect the lives of everyone in Britain, and we have to get it right.
If we perpetuate the negativity and scaremongering of much of the campaign, there’s a very good chance we’ll turn the warnings of Project Fear into a self-fulfilling prophesy. As Franklin D Roosevelt put it: “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.”
On the other hand, if we come together behind a positive new agenda — in particular for the economy — we can make a reality of the optimistic vision of Britain outside the EU put forward by some “leave” campaigners.
If we pull together, we can make a strong statement about our resolve to look forward, not back
Let me be clear: I was firmly in the “remain” camp. I believed that while the EU is grotesquely flawed in many ways, the potential economic shock of leaving was simply not worth it. But now that the vote has gone the other way, there’s only one thing that matters: avoiding that potential shock, and if we can, engineering a lasting economic boost.
The key to that is confidence. Building confidence in Britain’s economic prospects outside the EU is the single most important thing we now need to do. For the next few weeks, the eyes of the world will be on us. People will be trying to understand why we voted the way we did, and wondering what it means for them. In particular, global investors will be weighing up their options: should they put planned investments on hold? Take their money out? Or perhaps even put more cash in?
The immediate reaction of many — including here in Britain — to the decision to leave the EU was to see it as us turning our backs on the world. However, if the international business community starts to hear that Britain will continue to be an open, dynamic, trading economy — and in fact we actually want to be more open and dynamic than before — then we can make that the reality.
Here’s how. Before I became an entrepreneur, I was a policy adviser to the prime minister, working across all areas of policy. Every year, I would draft a note from No 10 to the Treasury before the budget and autumn statement, outlining proposals to move the economy forward. It’s how I was able to push through policies to create the world’s most generous tax breaks for early-stage investment, as well as entrepreneur relief and other measures to help small businesses flourish.
Were I still working at Downing Street, here’s the submission I would make today, at this critical moment in our economic life. It’s a bold, positive agenda designed to boost confidence in Britain. Not so much a “punishment budget” as a “power-ahead budget”.
First, to boost global investor confidence, we should cut corporation tax to a worldwide low of 10%. At a stroke, this would make every global chief executive sit up and take notice. “Wow — shouldn’t we relocate to Britain?” they would ask. The answer is yes. Reducing our corporation tax rate to that level would instantly make the UK a top choice for business location, bringing jobs and investment in its wake.
Second, to boost small business confidence and resilience, we should take immediate action to cut business rates. Unlike corporation tax, which is paid only on profits, firms pay business rates whether they make money or not. They can be a massive factor in small companies such as high street shops having to shut when times are tough, and it’s a deeply regressive policy. We should make dramatic cuts to small business rates and compensate councils for the shortfall in revenue.
And finally, to boost public confidence, we should act quickly to deliver reform in one of the most high-profile areas of the referendum campaign: immigration. This would show citizens that their votes really do make a difference, going some way towards restoring faith in the political process. But it would also directly help our economic prospects if we made it easier for people who can make a contribution to our economy — for example, entrepreneurs or graduates from the world’s top 50 universities — to come and work here.
Part of this would be the new Australian-style points system we are promised, which ought to be outlined within the next 10 days. But we can also transform the efficiency of our immigration system, using modern technology such as data analytics and machine learning to make the process radically cheaper and faster. If we do that, there’s no reason why visa decisions couldn’t be made within 24 hours and at a fraction of the cost, so helping fast-growing British businesses recruit the talent they need to succeed globally.
These are all steps that the government could take quickly, and that would make our country an even better place to do business, as well as send an unmistakable signal to the world about the kind of country that the newly independent Britain wants to be.
If we pull together like this, we can make a strong and positive statement about our collective resolve to look forward, not back. And, most important of all, we can let the world know that Britain will never stop being entrepreneurial, never stop facing outwards and never stop inventing, making and trading.
So whichever way you voted in the referendum, it’s worth bearing in mind these beautiful words attributed to Johann Wolfgang Goethe: “Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.” This is certainly a brave new world, but as long as we continue to dream and dare to be bold, Britain has the brightest possible future ahead.
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Thanks - if you don`t vote, don`t complain later ...
This seems to be fairly accurate... yes, 36% of 18-24 voted and only 58% of 25-34 year olds... let me know if the link doesn't work and I'll try again...
https://twitter.com/SkyData/status/746700869656256512
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So, here are a few things to consider late at night when you're contemplating the fall of the Roman Empire...
Corbyn now has essentially what he wanted – out of the EU. Cameron likewise. The irony is that Corbyn isn’t going to leave on his own accord. Therefore, he now becomes a central player in the negotiations to leave, should he actually feel like doing so. Labour needs to step up with whatever they've got left.
Brexit terms and a relationship with the EU require the agreement of the remaining 27 members. There is little unity within the club; many of the newer entrants are very sceptical of the original Old Boys’ Club. Any bullying could trigger a referendum, and so it should.
Agreement requires a 'super qualified majority'; in other words, 72% of the remaining member countries which represent 65% of the remaining EU population. Further, the European Parliament must also approve any deal.
Before 2009, it wasn’t possible to leave. Permission to leave only comes with Article 50 which was enacted as a part of The Treaty of Lisbon – after Ireland was forced to re-do the referendum because they returned an ‘unfavourable decision’ the first time. Negotiations are envisaged to last for 2 years, but the article has never been invoked till now.
The notion that border controls must be asserted between Northern Ireland and the Republic is nonsense. Sweden and Norway have no such agreement, and the UK has always had special provisions in this regard since partition. Should the EU want to flex its muscle here, it risks alienating Ireland. There is a lot of talk in Dublin about preserving this unique relationship and a keen interest in not being forced to go heavy on Britain. Ireland is prepared to be an ally of Britain and this has been stated publically. In light of this, there is even a discussion about the merits of re-joining the 53-member state British Commonwealth. Ireland could easily play a key role in Brexit and it is in their interests to do so, given the economic inter-dependency between Ireland, Northern Ireland and the UK. Ireland has a lot at stake here and plenty to be pissed off at since the banking crises.
There are obvious reasons to conclude an intelligent and generous association deal, least of all because Euro-scepticism is at an all time high throughout the EU. Judging by their comments, both Merkel and Hollande realise this. There is no doubt that every pro-EU leader is on the edge, should a similar referendum be announced elsewhere – a very real possibility.
If the likes of Weber, Juncker and Schauble want to get nasty about this divorce, or should other countries want to use this as a test case for political opportunism (see Spain), they might want to consider whether or not it would create a domino effect.
Anyway, back to Twitter and Instagram and how we can overturn decisions....
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The size of the online petition may well lead to a debate in Parliament; however, it will need retrospective legislation which isn’t going to happen.
I have a simpler answer.
We should have another referendum to see if everyone is happy about the 1st referendum.
If the majority in the 2nd referendum are not happy then we can go back to the electorate with a “Do you want another EU Referendum Referendum.”
If the answer is yes, there will be a 2nd EU Referendum.
Obviously, the result of that might cause a bigger problem (hard to believe I hear you say).
If Remain win, are the votes of the 2 EU Referenda (?) added together to get a winner, or do we go to a 3rd EU Referendum as a best of 3?
If Leave win, then the little known Sturgeon Joker (Junker?) can be played ie. lose 2, win the 3rd and use Conkers Rules.
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Hasn't that petition been proved to be bogus? I'll try and find the link...
The vast majority of votes seem to have come from abroad. Fro memory, 39,000 votes came from Vatican City (which has 800 inhabitants) likewise 24,000 from North Korea... :(
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Certainly a lot of the petition has been found to have false signatures, 70,000 plus
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When we are properly out of the EU, will we be able to call Snickers bars Marathons again :-\
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When we are properly out of the EU, will we be able to call Snickers bars Marathons again :-\
Not sure if I've posted this one before, but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC-MicfQFyw
I just want Opel Fruits back to their original name, not f-ing 'Starburst'....
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You can call them what you wish. Unfortunately, you will need a wheelbarrow full of money to buy them, and they will be luxury goods, beyond the reach of most people. Thanks Outies!!! ;D
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I keep reading posts on other Forums about how 'the old' ruined the future of the youngsters by voting leave... NO! They ruined it for themselves! Hell, they didn't even have to do anything as basic as showing up at a polling station, they could have registered for a postal vote and done it at their convenience!
And, please, don't anyone use the excuse that 'well, they're young, they didn't understand...' ::) If you're over 18, you're an adult and with that comes adult responsibilities. Decades ago, someone of a similar age would be sent to fight a fuckin' war. I'm seeing a lot of spoilt children in adult bodies just moaning, basically.
Yes, I am officially a grumpy old man, but you know, make your bed etc.
Exactly. I heard time and again in "yoof" audiences how noone is telling them enough about it. Erm, ding dong. You have the internet now, bloody look it up!!!!!!!! We managed to vote and find out in the past we had a newspaper and 4 channels.
Molly coddled, time to bring back national service, what ho! :D
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Thanks - if you don`t vote, don`t complain later ...
This seems to be fairly accurate... yes, 36% of 18-24 voted and only 58% of 25-34 year olds... let me know if the link doesn't work and I'll try again...
https://twitter.com/SkyData/status/746700869656256512
Ok, perhaps the 71% I heard quoted on TV was a little too much, but it was well over 50% who didn't bother.
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Divided kingdom ????
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Maybe Mr Osborne should read this.
"Hello, world. Britain has dared to dream and is open for business
article by rohan silva
Three swift confidence-boosting measures will convince people at home and investors abroad that we have a dynamic future
The “leave” campaign’s slogan was “take control”. Well, now we truly are in control. I don’t mean that in the narrow sense of taking control of certain policy areas from the EU. I mean that we’re in charge of our own fate as a country. The choice we make about how we react to Thursday’s momentous vote will affect the lives of everyone in Britain, and we have to get it right.
If we perpetuate the negativity and scaremongering of much of the campaign, there’s a very good chance we’ll turn the warnings of Project Fear into a self-fulfilling prophesy. As Franklin D Roosevelt put it: “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.”
On the other hand, if we come together behind a positive new agenda — in particular for the economy — we can make a reality of the optimistic vision of Britain outside the EU put forward by some “leave” campaigners.
If we pull together, we can make a strong statement about our resolve to look forward, not back
Let me be clear: I was firmly in the “remain” camp. I believed that while the EU is grotesquely flawed in many ways, the potential economic shock of leaving was simply not worth it. But now that the vote has gone the other way, there’s only one thing that matters: avoiding that potential shock, and if we can, engineering a lasting economic boost.
The key to that is confidence. Building confidence in Britain’s economic prospects outside the EU is the single most important thing we now need to do. For the next few weeks, the eyes of the world will be on us. People will be trying to understand why we voted the way we did, and wondering what it means for them. In particular, global investors will be weighing up their options: should they put planned investments on hold? Take their money out? Or perhaps even put more cash in?
The immediate reaction of many — including here in Britain — to the decision to leave the EU was to see it as us turning our backs on the world. However, if the international business community starts to hear that Britain will continue to be an open, dynamic, trading economy — and in fact we actually want to be more open and dynamic than before — then we can make that the reality.
Here’s how. Before I became an entrepreneur, I was a policy adviser to the prime minister, working across all areas of policy. Every year, I would draft a note from No 10 to the Treasury before the budget and autumn statement, outlining proposals to move the economy forward. It’s how I was able to push through policies to create the world’s most generous tax breaks for early-stage investment, as well as entrepreneur relief and other measures to help small businesses flourish.
Were I still working at Downing Street, here’s the submission I would make today, at this critical moment in our economic life. It’s a bold, positive agenda designed to boost confidence in Britain. Not so much a “punishment budget” as a “power-ahead budget”.
First, to boost global investor confidence, we should cut corporation tax to a worldwide low of 10%. At a stroke, this would make every global chief executive sit up and take notice. “Wow — shouldn’t we relocate to Britain?” they would ask. The answer is yes. Reducing our corporation tax rate to that level would instantly make the UK a top choice for business location, bringing jobs and investment in its wake.
Second, to boost small business confidence and resilience, we should take immediate action to cut business rates. Unlike corporation tax, which is paid only on profits, firms pay business rates whether they make money or not. They can be a massive factor in small companies such as high street shops having to shut when times are tough, and it’s a deeply regressive policy. We should make dramatic cuts to small business rates and compensate councils for the shortfall in revenue.
And finally, to boost public confidence, we should act quickly to deliver reform in one of the most high-profile areas of the referendum campaign: immigration. This would show citizens that their votes really do make a difference, going some way towards restoring faith in the political process. But it would also directly help our economic prospects if we made it easier for people who can make a contribution to our economy — for example, entrepreneurs or graduates from the world’s top 50 universities — to come and work here.
Part of this would be the new Australian-style points system we are promised, which ought to be outlined within the next 10 days. But we can also transform the efficiency of our immigration system, using modern technology such as data analytics and machine learning to make the process radically cheaper and faster. If we do that, there’s no reason why visa decisions couldn’t be made within 24 hours and at a fraction of the cost, so helping fast-growing British businesses recruit the talent they need to succeed globally.
These are all steps that the government could take quickly, and that would make our country an even better place to do business, as well as send an unmistakable signal to the world about the kind of country that the newly independent Britain wants to be.
If we pull together like this, we can make a strong and positive statement about our collective resolve to look forward, not back. And, most important of all, we can let the world know that Britain will never stop being entrepreneurial, never stop facing outwards and never stop inventing, making and trading.
So whichever way you voted in the referendum, it’s worth bearing in mind these beautiful words attributed to Johann Wolfgang Goethe: “Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.” This is certainly a brave new world, but as long as we continue to dream and dare to be bold, Britain has the brightest possible future ahead.
So basically a return to Thatcher's 80's ("the business of business is business") with an extra bit of 'let the rest of Europe deal with the riff-raff' and 'has anyone seen our Empire lately?' thrown in for good measure. Brave New World indeed.
I do agree with the notion that Britain needs to pull together and get on with things. It would appear that your (so-called) leaders have disappeared up their own arses. The only actual news about what might happen that you've had so far is Osbourne announcing the likelihood of tax increases today. Something to look forward to. His suggestion to delay the actual Brexit (Article 50) until such a time that Britain is happy with all the negotiations (whilst trying to secure extra deals outside of the EU) would mean years of uncertainty and would be damaging to everyone.
Time to pull the finger. Having an actual government would be a good start.
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Does anyone find Galloway's excellent speech here, which makes a clear reference to Tony Benn, an example of right-wing, anti-EU populism? Or is it simply that Galloway makes a concise case for Lexit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8cF93B58Vw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8cF93B58Vw)
Not a nationalist argument, but a democratic one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U)
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Johnz, you're right. Both the Tories and Labour have played bloody shockers. Embarrassing.
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Johnz, you're right. Both the Tories and Labour have played bloody shockers. Embarrassing.
It's not good at all. Britain needs good leadership now more than ever in the last 70 years. I can't think of anyone who is up for that job. Strange times.
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Labour seems to be tearing itself apart. Good. I don't truly dislike Corbyn, but nobody is gonna vote for him as PM. He needs to resign if he has any respect for his own party.
And, to be fair, the potential candidates seem as bad as him.
I'd love to see a proper left-wing party as a valid force in UK politics... been a while since that one, eh?
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We will sell you Alex and Nicola, free transfer for Rooney and Kane, were no taking Joe hart though
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Labour seems to be tearing itself apart. Good. I don't truly dislike Corbyn, but nobody is gonna vote for him as PM. He needs to resign if he has any respect for his own party.
And, to be fair, the potential candidates seem as bad as him.
I'd love to see a proper left-wing party as a valid force in UK politics... been a while since that one, eh?
Thats an interesting one. He was voted for by the grass roots and is Chairman Mao according to the Daily Hate Mail. The problem with extreme left or right's is that they arent popular with the middle ground......Thatcher/Scargill anyone?
Cameron is an evolution of Blair but right of centre. So given that, I feel it will be someone in that ilk. I genuinely beleive it will be Theresa May, as absent in the shenanigans as Jeremy was.
Dislike her immensely BUT possibly the only candidate with any steel to drag us through this. Johnson, or BJ, if you will is exactly that. Makes the right noises for one side, but has no real purpose other than a bit of entertainment.
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So BJ is out. What a pathetic waste of space. I guess it's a good thing.
Looks like Michael 'people in this country have had enough of experts' Gove is the new favourite.
This whole thing would be hilarious if it wasn't so bloody sad.
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Hope its not Michael gove , he just looks like a right slimey bastard . Female leaders seem to be really popular at the moment, though I'm sure we all remember our last female pm
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Hope its not Michael gove , he just looks like a right slimey bastard . Female leaders seem to be really popular at the moment, though I'm sure we all remember our last female pm
Eagle versus May is not going to get me excited. Sorry! Nor is Jarvis versus Gove. Jezuz, is there no one of depth and focus to take us through this?
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Blimey. BOTH main UK political parties now ripping themselves apart from the inside? :o
Is it too insane of me to think either party are thinking 'shit, perhaps our previous ideals are wrong and we should start listening to the people and starting respecting their interests, then maybe we might get a shot at staying in power?'
Nope... that's crazy talk. Sorry, I shouldn't drink in the week.
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Step away from the bottle, Ray
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Step away from the bottle, Ray
But... it's the only time I feel optimistic about the future? :'(
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Bloody Hell. Steven Crabb....Wolverine with a tidy haircut!! :o
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Bloody Hell. Steven Crabb....Wolverine with a tidy haircut!! :o
Also thinks that homosexuality is a disease that can be 'cured'....
::)
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Bloody Hell. Steven Crabb....Wolverine with a tidy haircut!! :o
Hey Wolverine as PM sounds good. No one would give us any shit! ;)
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Step away from the bottle, Ray
But... it's the only time I feel optimistic about the future? :'(
Yoga? Meditation? Hugging trees?
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Justin Sullivan for PM!
While I realise that's not entirely realistic, it would be awesome to see him front up at PMQ's to ANY of the 600-odd spineless creatures we laughingly call our Political Masters.
As for the referendum...hate, fear, misinformation and outright lies on both sides.
Remain: A complete non-entity of a campaign, secure in blissful complacency, led by euro-sceptics who didn't believe in it (Cameron, Corbyn (half-heartedly) et al. No compelling case put forward.
Leave: Spearheaded by Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Nigel Fromage....endorsed by Rupert Murdoch, Donald Trump and Katie Hopkins...Nuff said, there's six reasons to vote remain.
Such was the utter bollocks from both sides, I disregarded both of them, researched it myself, and voted according to my conscience..
Peace.
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Justin Sullivan for PM!
While I realise that's not entirely realistic, it would be awesome to see him front up at PMQ's to ANY of the 600-odd spineless creatures we laughingly call our Political Masters.
As for the referendum...hate, fear, misinformation and outright lies on both sides.
Remain: A complete non-entity of a campaign, secure in blissful complacency, led by euro-sceptics who didn't believe in it (Cameron, Corbyn (half-heartedly) et al. No compelling case put forward.
Leave: Spearheaded by Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Nigel Fromage....endorsed by Rupert Murdoch, Donald Trump and Katie Hopkins...Nuff said, there's six reasons to vote remain.
Such was the utter bollocks from both sides, I disregarded both of them, researched it myself, and voted according to my conscience..
Peace.
Damn, Andi, please post more often. Nicely put!
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Justin Sullivan for PM!
While I realise that's not entirely realistic, it would be awesome to see him front up at PMQ's to ANY of the 600-odd spineless creatures we laughingly call our Political Masters.
As for the referendum...hate, fear, misinformation and outright lies on both sides.
Remain: A complete non-entity of a campaign, secure in blissful complacency, led by euro-sceptics who didn't believe in it (Cameron, Corbyn (half-heartedly) et al. No compelling case put forward.
Leave: Spearheaded by Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Nigel Fromage....endorsed by Rupert Murdoch, Donald Trump and Katie Hopkins...Nuff said, there's six reasons to vote remain.
Such was the utter bollocks from both sides, I disregarded both of them, researched it myself, and voted according to my conscience..
Peace.
Mate, whether it was an unexpected typo or stroke of genius, Nigel Fromage has made me chuckle, cos its fooking brilliant.
Kudos. :) ;)
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Drummyb - I have to admit, it was an act of deliberate pettiness. I've called him that for some years, simply because I know it would wind him up.
Master Ray - Over the last ten days, I've been verbally attacked by friends, family and assorted numbnuts for my political beliefs. But I have a thick skin.....sticks and stones and all that....so I will continue to speak up for what I believe in; peace, tolerance, equality, understanding, respect.
The line from 1984 - "Two nations under one crown divided more and more" - sadly seems more appropriate now than it did 30 years ago.
Peace,
Andrew
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Arse....
Ive just got back from France. wish you told me before eh mate!
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Bye bye Boris.............
Night night Nigel .............
So just where is the plan ????????????????? More pertinently who's plan was it? Don't matter who you are seems the answer is : it wasn't me ! What a spineless soup of unevolved amoebic pondlife. My balls that ended up in the incinerator are bigger than theirs -wankers.
Like guilty little school boys running away after dropping the match in the bonfire the day before 5th November - Guy Fawkes where the _fuck are you now we need you?
Beyond pathetic
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(http://i.imgur.com/O3bTuwH.gif)
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A message to 'stuff'.
Hi, Stuff (especially Political Stuff).
There's been so much going on since Friday 24th. We're all struggling to keep up with it. It's all just one bloody thing after another. Any chance that absolutely NOTHING could happen for a week or two? Maybe a new judge on Strictly, I think we can handle that. Otherwise... could we just chill out with no STUFF happening and get our breath back for a bit? Also, no more beloved celebrities dying would be awesome.
Yours, sincerely, Everyone.
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A message to 'stuff'.
Hi, Stuff (especially Political Stuff).
There's been so much going on since Friday 24th. We're all struggling to keep up with it. It's all just one bloody thing after another. Any chance that absolutely NOTHING could happen for a week or two? Maybe a new judge on Strictly, I think we can handle that. Otherwise... could we just chill out with no STUFF happening and get our breath back for a bit? Also, no more beloved celebrities dying would be awesome.
Yours, sincerely, Everyone.
NO!!! No new judges on Strictly. STOP MESSING WITH STRICTLY
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Good to hear that Belgium guy quoting nma ie rats and sinking ships , thankfully there won't be another sailing anywhere near them
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So, the insanity of the populace prevailed. Not so great, Britain! It'll probably go down as the worst ****-up in modern western democracy, from the egocentric choice Cameron took, to the dirty campaign, to not taking swaths of the population serious in their anger, to the disintegration of UK politics and the UK, to the entire slew of Brexit perpetrators being too wimpy to take on responsibility for the bloody mess they caused, and economic uncertainty leading to further inequality - the opposite of what some Brexiteers argued for. And Brexit hasn't even happened yet.
I would say the "best" possible outcome is: a continued division of the population (see the US over the past 15 years since Bush's "with or against us"), possible breakup of the union, some muddled way into bilateral treaties with a lot of nastiness, but including free movement of people and same amount of net pay to the EU(e.g. like Norway), but no UK voice/vote inside the EU, and no real change. Taking back control yeah? More likely a nastier outcome, triggering a continued rise of fascism across the continent. Which is why I am particularly frustrated with left-wing Brexiteers ignoring the fact that they contributed to this move to the far right - the vote was never about freeing the continent from neoliberalism (first place to start with that would be the UK government) as it was driven by a rightwing agenda of vile populists.
Better put than I ever could:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-article-50-triggered-eu-membership-turmoil-europe-marine-le-pen-fascism-a7120216.html
The only hope is that this rage is channelled into a progressive anti-neoliberal mass movement. The alternative would mean the return of fascism to Europe. Nearly a hundred years ago, a young Russian said, “There are decades where nothing happens and there are weeks where decades happen." That Russian was Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov – also known as Lenin. History never ended after the collapse of communism. But it has now returned with a vengeance.
Although that hope is very very optimistic.
Tell all the people who believe what they read in the press
Tell all the folk who stare from behind suburban walls
The enemy is not some nation far across the sea
The enemy is with us every single breathing day.
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Whilst I was a Remainer and II get the need to blame a right wing agenda or media scare stories, I think that does a dis-service to people who voted out. Sure there will have been a small element of knuckle draggers. There will have been far more who have the ability to make a rationed and informed opinion. There are enough Out Voters on this forum, are they all scared by stories or insane and right wing?? This was by and large a close call
It is nonsense to blame an Out decision around conspiracy theories and predict the demise of the world. People didnt buy what the EU sold. End of.
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If the UK is to get anywhere then surely it will have to adopt the policy of free movement of workers for trade agreements exactly what the right wing didn't want. I agree things are looking bad , Cameron had to step down as pm what choice did he have. Nigel good riddance n hopefully the beginning of the end of ukip. Boris didn't resign he is still a mp but who would have wanted him as pm - definitely something good. Jeremy well well its been clear for a while he isn't up to the job, the modern Michael Foot ie totally unelectable.
Lets not forget a lot of people were against the European Parliament, sending them lots of money n getting laws and regulations that we don't want. That's the only reason why I and many others voted out, do I think I've done the wrong thing its far fast too early to say, everyone know it would be tough it's not even two weeks yet n we haven't even triggered article 50 yet. The labour party needs a incredibly strong leader n has to accept were out if its continue to challenge for government
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Thanks
Tell all the people who believe what they read in the press
Tell all the folk who stare from behind suburban walls
The enemy is not some nation far across the sea
The enemy is with us every single breathing day.
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To be honest, I doubt anyone will have the nerve to push the Article 50 button. Even if they do, it's a long way down the line and the way things are going in Europe, I suspect things will be vastly different by the time any action takes place...
A friend of mine was in Germany last week and the overwhelming response he got from German folks he met was they wished they were allowed a referendum and, if it happened, it would be a massive LEAVE vote... I'd love to hear from any German folks on this Forum or, indeed, anyone from any EU country...
Certain media outlets seem to put this as an issue of the UK being naughty people who are messing with the absolute unity of the EU whereas, from what I can gather, there is an enormous amount of unrest in other quarters, unrest that is on the brink of boiling over and is not being addressed...
The general hysteria and accusations of idiocy and racism don't help.
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To be honest, I doubt anyone will have the nerve to push the Article 50 button. Even if they do, it's a long way down the line and the way things are going in Europe, I suspect things will be vastly different by the time any action takes place...
A friend of mine was in Germany last week and the overwhelming response he got from German folks he met was they wished they were allowed a referendum and, if it happened, it would be a massive LEAVE vote... I'd love to hear from any German folks on this Forum or, indeed, anyone from any EU country...
Certain media outlets seem to put this as an issue of the UK being naughty people who are messing with the absolute unity of the EU whereas, from what I can gather, there is an enormous amount of unrest in other quarters, unrest that is on the brink of boiling over and is not being addressed...
The general hysteria and accusations of idiocy and racism don't help.
As a German who was in Germany until last week, I would say that most people think that Brexit was a pretty unwise move that will mostly affect the working classes. The fact that no one in Britain seems to have thought about what they should actually do now (other than resign) is not exactly making people want to follow suit.
However, there is a growing far right that welcomes Brexit and will use it in much the same way as UKIP have done. Many people are critical of the EU but I would say that the vast majority feels that the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.
So I would say that until such a time that Britain can convincingly show that Brexit was a success most people will regard it as a risk not worth taking.
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The voting was to push the 50 button - now or in the next 2 years
And your friend and the "leave" ones he met - he didn`t met me ;) and an overwhelming responce "leave" responce here - perhaps I have the wrong people around me to talk or read the wrong newspapers ???
Most mosts seem not to know how to deal with that here (and your leaders for the in/out taking a time out within some days and leave their voting people - saying sorry (does sorry perhaps mean: I know and you know, I`m an a**hole, but don`t start a battle, let`s have a cup of tea, tomorrow is another (Scarlet or what her name) day) ?
To be honest, I doubt anyone will have the nerve to push the Article 50 button. Even if they do, it's a long way down the line and the way things are going in Europe, I suspect things will be vastly different by the time any action takes place...
A friend of mine was in Germany last week and the overwhelming response he got from German folks he met was they wished they were allowed a referendum and, if it happened, it would be a massive LEAVE vote... I'd love to hear from any German folks on this Forum or, indeed, anyone from any EU country...
Certain media outlets seem to put this as an issue of the UK being naughty people who are messing with the absolute unity of the EU whereas, from what I can gather, there is an enormous amount of unrest in other quarters, unrest that is on the brink of boiling over and is not being addressed...
The general hysteria and accusations of idiocy and racism don't help.
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Hey, just repeating what I heard... ???
I don't think it's an overwhelming 'leave' thing here, probably a more 'remain' if anything.
Struggling to understand your last paragraph, lotus... but I don't think you're an a-hole by any means.
Johnz... if you're from Germany, I respect your opinion / outlook / wisdom.
If I were a gambling man, I would put money down on Brexit never happening...
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What I do find interesting is the media who peddled the panic stories about being colonised by Eastern Europe so quick lets get out, are now the same media peddling stories about how we're going to hell in a hand cart. Seriously dont read the news. Your life will not change a jot.
MR it would be career suicide for any politician to go against the referendum
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Some very interesting comments from former Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt:
"What are you waiting for? When will the Council recognise that this type of EU - you cannot defend it any more. Europe needs to be reformed... European citizens are not against Europe, they're against this Europe."
Wisest words I've heard from anyone. I would say this is so applicable to UK folks, yes, even the Brexit supporters...
Or can we all keep pretending that the EU is a candyfloss wonderland where all our dreams come true?
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Some very interesting comments from former Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt:
"What are you waiting for? When will the Council recognise that this type of EU - you cannot defend it any more. Europe needs to be reformed... European citizens are not against Europe, they're against this Europe."
Wisest words I've heard from anyone. I would say this is so applicable to UK folks, yes, even the Brexit supporters...
Or can we all keep pretending that the EU is a candyfloss wonderland where all our dreams come true?
Totally agree with the Belgian PM. I don't think anyone thinks that the EU is great anymore. The major differences are whether you believe that it should exist or not and whether you can improve things from within or without. And let's face it, right now the UK is doing very little to persuade anyone of the benefits of its new found independence. But hopefully that will change.
I live in New Zealand but I grew up in Germany and England and am married to a Norwegian. So that's what my perspective is based on. I do visit Europe most years and I really feel that the dissatisfaction has been growing steadily all over Europe over the last 10 years. It just takes different forms in different countries but it's the same feeling of disillusion with authority and worry about the future. In Germany this is mostly directed at the government. In Britain, I feel that both Labour and Tories have used the EU as a scapegoat to distract from their own short-comings. Brits are the least informed Europeans in regards to EU matters. Sadly, it seems that this suited UK governments just fine. That is not to say that the EU is perfect. Far from it. But right now, it's obvious that the UK government is an even bigger shambles than the EU.
The lack of democracy in the EU got mentioned a lot too. I agree but think this was exaggerated. How democratic is the actual Brexit now? The people that took you there have disappeared and you have no say in who will lead Brexit or what direction it should take. You will most likely get a hardline Tory version that will strive to make Britain 'attractive' to business. And we all know what that means.
I think rather than wishing failure upon each other it's important for the people in the EU and the UK to work together to overcome these issues. It's time that people get involved in political processes again (beyond occasional protest votes) and for authorities to ensure that concerns are addressed. Easier said than done.
What worries me most about Brexit is that it shows that there now is an alarmingly large part of the population (all over Europe) that is easily swayed by populism and that is no longer interested in actual facts.
It's nice to be able to have this conversation without the obligatory nastiness that goes with it elsewhere. I understand that people in the UK must be sick of it by now but I appreciate everyone's views and hope that more people will contribute. After all, it is probably the most important political event of the last 50 years or so and the political decisions of the next 5 to 10 years will have far reaching consequences. I hope people rise to the occasion.
Sorry about the long post.
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A friend of mine was in Germany last week and the overwhelming response he got from German folks he met was they wished they were allowed a referendum and, if it happened, it would be a massive LEAVE vote... I'd love to hear from any German folks on this Forum or, indeed, anyone from any EU country...
Hmmm, I don't think that would happen necessarily, especially not after people have seen how the Brexit ended. Of course we, too, have those right wing activists who were overjoyed with the result - but then that is in their job description, right? ::)
But their voices are the ones that the media tend to speak about. No, before the referendum, Germans overwhelmingly stated how much they wanted the UK to stay in and everyone here was really shocked and saddened by the result.
The problem is indeed what the Belgian guy you quoted has said: people have no issues with the EU as such - just with the way it currently is. And the guys in charge - in all countries - either don't get it or they don't care enough.
I read a very interesting article yesterday, unfortunately it is in German and several pages long - but it all came down to this: the working class, which politicians seem to think does not really exist anymore, does still exist - and they feel they have no-one out there to represent them, to speak for them. So they turn to parties they wouldn't normally vote for, simply because they feel that, by doing this, they will get heard.And the parties in question are abusing this, just as the Brexit is being abused, for their right-wing ideology.
Which is scary, very scary.
But no, at this very moment I doubt that Germans would vote "Leave", it's not what I gather from the people around me.
Next year's elections should be...interesting... :-\
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Couple of excellent posts from Stephanie and Johnz and I bow down to superior wisdom from people who know Germany bettr than I do...
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I read a very interesting article yesterday, unfortunately it is in German and several pages long - but it all came down to this: the working class, which politicians seem to think does not really exist anymore, does still exist - and they feel they have no-one out there to represent them, to speak for them. So they turn to parties they wouldn't normally vote for, simply because they feel that, by doing this, they will get heard.And the parties in question are abusing this, just as the Brexit is being abused, for their right-wing ideology.
Which is scary, very scary.
An excellent well made point.
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So, Theresa May it is to negotiate Brexit...let's see what she can do, or is she just the latest Tory to be thrown under the bus by the circle of shitehawks.
Let's see if she brings Disraeli's brainchild to the negotiating table...
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So, Theresa May it is to negotiate Brexit...let's see what she can do, or is she just the latest Tory to be thrown under the bus by the circle of shitehawks.
Let's see if she brings Disraeli's brainchild to the negotiating table...
Very true, I don't hold out much hope on any brilliant solution as the "let's have another referendum because we don't like the result of the referendum" undemocratic lot get into gear. My view is we will do Brexit-lite, a fudge like all political moves these days. The long grass is a-calling! :)
Meanwhile on the other side Armageddon by the "new kinder progressive" politics, a leader clinging on, challengers as anodyn as the Tory contenders, bricks thrown through windows, death threats, attempts to bully people into voting a certain way.
It's fascinating and appalling all at the same time. Perhaps now is the time for a party that can properly balance the fact we are a power economy and make it even more powerful and attractive to business allied to proper social policies to combat inequality. And to me, that is neither of the two main parties, or indeed any of the others. It used to be the Liberals until they lurched into the kitchen sink club.
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So Boris Johnson is the new foreign secretary now.
Should I laugh or cry?
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Thought Boris getting the job was very strange, wondering if Jeremy Clarkson will be his assistant lol
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Agreed... Boris as foreign secretary? That's the worst possible job you could give a thoughtless fool like him! I appreciate he stepped down from the leadership race with the promise of a well-paid job, but surely something like 'Minister In Charge Of, I Dunno, Something Irrelevent Like Newts' would be more applicable?
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A German newspaper put a nice spin on it. " You got us in this mess, you can take the flack for it" :)
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I can criticise EU also myself for many reasons. Just I hate the way that right wing above all used the argument, populism etc. that is fucked up.
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I see the EU is increasingly coming to the stark realisation that the British economy's importance to Europe cannot be denied or minimised out of spite.
There are now planned discussions to allow the UK an exemption from the freedom of movement, something which Merkel and Hollande refused to consider only a few weeks ago. We were told the freedom of movement was one of the basic principles which we must accept outright. Seemingly, it can now be adjusted...
In doing so, immigration concerns with greater controls are addressed, but participation in the single market with full trade access is unaffected.
Clearly, losing the UK from the further integration project and the single market is too much - the economic cost too great. No doubt the last thing German businesses want are tariffs and quantitative quotas when trying to export to one of their largest and most profitable markets. It's hardly a surprise, is it?
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Money talks
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I see the EU is increasingly coming to the stark realisation that the British economy's importance to Europe cannot be denied or minimised out of spite.
There are now planned discussions to allow the UK an exemption from the freedom of movement, something which Merkel and Hollande refused to consider only a few weeks ago. We were told the freedom of movement was one of the basic principles which we must accept outright. Seemingly, it can now be adjusted...
In doing so, immigration concerns with greater controls are addressed, but participation in the single market with full trade access is unaffected.
Clearly, losing the UK from the further integration project and the single market is too much - the economic cost too great. No doubt the last thing German businesses want are tariffs and quantitative quotas when trying to export to one of their largest and most profitable markets. It's hardly a surprise, is it?
I do think you are a bit blinded by your contempt for the EU. It is very much a two way street. Remember that the EU never wanted to lose Britain. The pound is currently at a 31 year low and things really aren't looking too great for the UK's economy.
The reality is that neither side will come out better off. So it is now up to the both parties to find a way that lets the UK effectively stay in the EU while giving the Leavers the illusion of independence.
While you consider Brexit a victory of some sort, I think it's becoming increasingly more obvious that the whole thing is a farce.
With all the other goings on in Europe at the moment I really think that we need this instability like a hole in the head.
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What is interesting to note is that the EU itself has moved so far away from the initial post-Brexit position of 'Article 50 must be initiated ASAP' (even Juncker isn't demanding this now) and 'there can be no single market without freedom of movement'. You don't even need to read between the lines to see that the EU is going to bend the rules, because it does realise what a loss Brexit represents. Think about it: the second largest economy and the greatest military power in the EU rejects greater political, economic and military integration.
Having a weak currency is not necessarily a bad thing - see how China regularly manipulates its own exchange rate to favour itself and become a powerhouse in the process. Northern Ireland is a prime example of how a devalued pound can be of great benefit - for the majority of the last decade it has exploited an overvalued Euro in the Republic of Ireland. Turkey did likewise throughout the 00s and 10s at the expense of Greece. Of course, this is a tried and tested example of monetary policy which can stimulate economic growth, but anyone who is in the Eurozone cannot do this, because the ECB holds the cards. Poland escaped many of the worst aspects of recession, simply because it could devalue the zloty. Look at how Slovakia and Slovenia still pay a heavy price for being tied to the Euro. I clearly see how this also devastates the group of PIIGS, all of which would be better off without it. We might well see Italy and Greece leaving it soon.
The whole thing is a farce, providing that action isn't taken to move forward. Negotiations to leave must begin sooner rather than later. The real reason we are here is because the European project in its current form of political and monetary union doesn't work. 28 member states with different histories, cultures, perspectives and so forth cannot be moulded into one superstate. Just think for one minute how this couldn't work in any other continent - even South America where this is a more dominant language, culture and history. It doesn't even work with something like NAFTA, and Canadians and Americans are much more similar than Europeans are.
As for Europe's many current problems, they have long roots and the outright refusal to consider alternatives in banking policies, fisheries policies, the role of the state, immigration and economic policies (fiscal/monetary), with regard to differences in each member state's needs and abilities, has been nothing short of tragic really. One size does not fit all. Even when it tried to woo Iceland after 2008 it failed, largely because the cost of membership was much greater than the benefits.
I like Europe and its diversity, but such concerted attempts to create a superstate, ignorant of the wider complexities, is doomed to failure.
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Looking really good isn't it ..................................
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Looking really good isn't it ..................................
Bit early to say isn't it? Both sides are posturing, as utterly predictable and anything agreed will be "not good enough, too little, too much, outrageous, brilliant" by the left and right wingers and of course the groups with vested interests in whatever topic is being negotiated. All I know is a majority voted for it, bad or good.
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Of course it's too early to give an Alan Hansen post match analysis but not too early for a "5 minutes into the 90 and it's not looking promising Gary, forwards look asleep, the midfield is absent and the defense is running around like headless chickens. Let's hope the goalkeeper has a good game".
No doubt there is an awful lot of posturing and "statement of intent tackles" going in but take your partisan glasses off for a moment and smell which way the wind is blowing. You know I was remain and I know you were leave but forget that and just attempt to view things from a non-interested third party eye, just where does this end up? Far too much reportage around the edges is building up to a very negative result for the UK. No the dire consequences of armageddon as presented by the remain campaign have yet to materialize but they are starting to build and as for the Narnia offered by the leave campaign lets just say that wardrobe looks a million _fucking miles away (350 million for the NHS anyone ? ;D).
I've not for one minute posited a view against the results of last years referendum , it was what it was. Don't stop it being a stupid mistake though.
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So. A year later does anyone know whats happening yet? ;D :'(
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So. A year later does anyone know whats happening yet? ;D :'(
Did anyone ever know what was going on? The Leavers' argument was based on Jingoism, wild speculation and bullshit, whilst the Remain campaign was based on entropy, inertia and bullshit.
Never have I seen such an important issue argued so poorly by both sides.
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I've not for one minute posited a view against the results of last years referendum , it was what it was. Don't stop it being a stupid mistake though.
You just did right there!
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Fair play but what I meant to say was I didn't try and and suggest the result should be changed in any way - the great british people spoke and that's that: I think you knew that smarty-pants :-*
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Give it 20 years and their will be a decision as to whether we go back in. Ill be in a nursing home and oblivious, mind
:o
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Never have I seen such an important issue argued so poorly by both sides.
Now there's a truth :)
Give it 20 years and their will be a decision as to whether we go back in. Ill be in a nursing home and oblivious, mind
:o
In 20 years they will probably still be arguing about how we are going to leave and we'll be there in the nursing home asking our Care Assistants (if there are any by then) "did we win that Brexit thing and did we get our empire back?"
Still at least the lawyers will have kept the economy strong and stable ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Never have I seen such an important issue argued so poorly by both sides.
I think jackroadkill wins this thread.
Can anyone, regardless of their opinion, honestly say that they have absolute faith and respect in either side?
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Never have I seen such an important issue argued so poorly by both sides.
I think jackroadkill wins this thread.
Yep :)
Can anyone, regardless of their opinion, honestly say that they have absolute faith and respect in either side?
Nope :-*
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Just found out today that the Tories have refused to put an end to cuts to emergency services (that after saying that they were listening to the public... did Grenfell not actually happen?) yet there's a billion £££s to buy themselves the majority they needed (that's public money, not Tory money... anyone vote for that?)
That Magic Money Tree just grew a few more branches, eh? Just not the Labour one, that one doesn't exists, obvs... ::)
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Ok controversial maybe but the eu was a steaming pile of shit that was always doomed to fail
Will brexit be a even bigger pile of shit who knows but looking that way just now
For every good thing the eu gave us there was something equally as bad
Frying pan - Fire
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Never have I seen such an important issue argued so poorly by both sides.
I think jackroadkill wins this thread.
Can anyone, regardless of their opinion, honestly say that they have absolute faith and respect in either side?
Gee, thanks!
I didn't vote in the referendum, which is not my usual style (spoiled ballot, anyone?), and this was purely down to not wanting to nail my colours to the mast of either campaign, each of which had done such a crappy, cut-price job of putting forward a cogent, rational and (above truthful or even reasonable) argument. Both Leave and Remain just indulged in a playground spat that revolved around "Your argument's crap", "No, YOUR argument's crap".
Furthermore, I can't believe that folk were surprised when, after the referendum, various promises weren't met, figures were found to have been plucked from thin air, and blessed were those with a vested interest in either side's status quo. That's to say nothing of the flagrant lying, general doom-mongering and lack of positivity engaged in by "our" (I use the term loosely) politicians.
In short, I was too ashamed of the whole poxy affair to get involved.
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Fair play but what I meant to say was I didn't try and and suggest the result should be changed in any way - the great british people spoke and that's that: I think you knew that smarty-pants :-*
Hehe! My trousers of choice, smarty pants! ;)
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Just found out today that the Tories have refused to put an end to cuts to emergency services (that after saying that they were listening to the public... did Grenfell not actually happen?) yet there's a billion £££s to buy themselves the majority they needed (that's public money, not Tory money... anyone vote for that?)
That Magic Money Tree just grew a few more branches, eh? Just not the Labour one, that one doesn't exists, obvs... ::)
Hi MM. Where did you hear that? I've heard nothing, and just had a trawl on the net. Nothing.
Not saying you are right or wrong, and of course we should not cut emergency services, the clue is in the word "emergency", of which I am still here thanks to emergency services!!!!!!!!!
But there is a lot of fake news out there, especially from the left at the moment. But both sides are guilty. Im with Anna on this that a lot of the stats and info, unless from a source we know is bullshit.
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Give it 20 years and their will be a decision as to whether we go back in. Ill be in a nursing home and oblivious, mind
:o
IF the EU exists by then! Not just us going being the issue there are massively more issues with the EU that could tear it apart.
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Fair play but what I meant to say was I didn't try and and suggest the result should be changed in any way - the great british people spoke and that's that: I think you knew that smarty-pants :-*
Hehe! My trousers of choice, smarty pants! ;)
Well perhaps Mr Rees-Mogg thought them smart in 1858 ;D ;D ;D ;D
But there is a lot of fake news out there, especially from the left at the moment. But both sides are guilty. Im with Anna on this that a lot of the stats and info, unless from a source we know is bullshit.
Bigly fake news especially from those commies that don't like little small hands ;)
Yes far too much numerical data is banded around without the nuances that make it a reasoned rational piece of work, equally though you have to dig behind the immediate headlines to get a grip on exactly what has been going on. Unfortunately "fake news" has become an identikit slogan with which to tarnish anything the reader happens to disagree with as total bullshit.