EU Referendum

[Master Ray]

Looks like Crazy Boris (ain't he such a laugh?   ) has stabbed Davey Boy in the back...

Seems like Cameron is haemorrhaging support left right and centre...

[Stephanie]

I would love for you guys to stay with us in this crazy EU thing.  That said, I have never been one for clubs and groups and stuff - so I do get why some will want to leave. It's certainly not like it's working very well right now...

The thing is, as has already been pointed out, that it's going to be very hard, to say the least, to make a really educated decision. People will be presented with a gazillion of "facts" and it will be so hard to really know which of them are facts indeed. I do wonder, given that UK companys will still want to do trade with EU companys (and vice versa) - is leaving really going to make such a big difference in the end? There are always conditions, rules, etc. - and maybe things won't change all that much anyway, psychologically, however, a break might really hurt - both sides.

I am not sure what my vote would look like, to be honest.

Anna has made a really good point, though...it could help to look at WHO it is that wants to leave the most...if those are the folks that you can't really trust, why now trust them on this issue and believe they have the country's best interest at heart. It's an interesting way to look at things.

[Bunny]

The problem inthe UK Stef is that we still have a small island, insular mentality. We're force fed "Great" Britain, failing to acknowledge everyone is proud of their country. We see Europe on holiday and thats it.  Whereas from my recent Slovakia trip, the overlap of cultures was astonishing and wonderful We dont have that here and some dont want it sadly. Unless you live in London, which is more global,all the rest of the UK is fed on is Eastern Europe coming here and taking jobs/benefits.

 

[Pol]

Its hard to work out exactly who to trust, do you trust one bunch of tory backstabbers' or another bunch of tory backstabbers , the labour party are a bit of joke and the snp have their own agenda, does Europe really want a independent Scotland anyway

[Anna Woman von NRW]

Simples : Trust no-one 

[Master Ray]

So, did Mr Cameron, in PMQT, actually stoop so low as to insult Mr Corbyn as to what he was wearing?   

The pig-botherer is rattled.

[Johnz]

Glad to see this discussed and hope that others join in. It is probably the most important decision Brits will make in a long time. There are so many interesting questions to ponder (ie. what about Scotland?) Do they want to leave? And what if they don't?

I can understand that people must be fed up with all the politics in Europe but now is not the time to be complacent. Like Anna said, take a look at who mostly advocates an exit. It's the right and far right and it's the same all over Europe.

If anyone had told me 5 years ago that the EU may be falling apart and Donald Trump may become president of the United States I would have laughed as hard as my grandfather did when some said to him in 1932 that Hitler would become chancellor and there would be another war...

[andydrbeard]

A mate and I had this chat at work yesterday. By November Trump could be president, the UK could be out of the EU and the world may be well on the way to being a very different place. And it could be argued that the extremists like ISIS are well on their way to achieving one of their goals to a more fragmented and less cooperative world. That's a cheery thought to start the day isn't it...

[ldopas]

So, did Mr Cameron, in PMQT, actually stoop so low as to insult Mr Corbyn as to what he was wearing?   

The pig-botherer is rattled.

For fear that I again get accused of defending Cameron let me say first I think the guy is a slithery git. Ok.

But MR. do you not see the irony in posting how "low" it is that Cameron mentioning Corbyn is not wearing a tie (hardly a capital offence). And then you put the bit about "pig botherer". A story which if you read Private Eye for example, we know now that Elizabeth Oakshott (daughter of the odious Lord Oakshott liberal no mark and back stabber extraordinaire), made up.

Let us rise above methinks? 

[ldopas]

The problem inthe UK Stef is that we still have a small island, insular mentality. We're force fed "Great" Britain, failing to acknowledge everyone is proud of their country. We see Europe on holiday and thats it.  Whereas from my recent Slovakia trip, the overlap of cultures was astonishing and wonderful We dont have that here and some dont want it sadly. Unless you live in London, which is more global,all the rest of the UK is fed on is Eastern Europe coming here and taking jobs/benefits.

 

I think firstly you, as a lot of left leaning people do (Emma Thompson stand up please), are far too harsh about our country. I certainly do not recognise your description and I go all over the UK and elsewhere for work.

Are you saying that apart from London, which is what you said, the rest of us are all UKIP EU haters? Are we really? What about Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Bristol etc. Multicultural places all?

We are an island you are right of course. But as we are not attached to Europe as a landmass we do see ourselves in that fashion. I don't think that is wrong necessarily. In Europe you can transport yourself from country to country easily, a bit more difficult to swim the channel. 

I think people are genuinely concern about numbers, that doesn't mean we are all jingoists or racists. Or even UKIPpers. Population is important, we all know it effects density, services and cheap labour can drive down wages.

It is NO shock that polls tell us that the leave vote is higher in ethnic minority communities here. As they bring an entrepreneurial instint with them. Are they "insular"? I don't think so.

[ldopas]

Anna has made a really good point, though...it could help to look at WHO it is that wants to leave the most...if those are the folks that you can't really trust, why now trust them on this issue and believe they have the country's best interest at heart. It's an interesting way to look at things.

An excellent post and I agree with it all, except this paragraph.

I think we must look at facts and data and not personalities. I really do not care who wants us to leave. In fact I could turn that around and say to you look at who wants us to stay. Cameron for one.

A lot of comments here take snipes at people, or talks about how "insular" we are. Or how shit the EU is. I think this is all chaff and we need to drown that all out and talk about the information. Ok it is subjective, it is difficult, but that is all we have.

For a person, as you all know ahem    , who usually has set views I'm really torn. I'm really not sure. My business does work with a lot of Spanish, Portuguese, German and other companies quite happily. In fact if we lived together as a unit as well as we work together there would be no problem. But I've a feeling I'm only going to make my mind up when I have the pencil in my hand to put the cross.

[eastmidswhizzkid]

Can we please change it from "yes or no" to - in or out ?, or stay or go ? I am loosing track here.

i agree, and  i think that the confusion is deliberate.

personally (and i have only just started to seriously consider this issue ) i think we should stay in. undoubtedly keeping the £ (pound sterling) and rejecting the euro has -so far- turned out to be the correct decision. other than that i can't see any real benefts from being seperate from europe. our geographic situation as an island means that we can maintain our physical borders' security whilst politicallly keeping travel between here and the mainland as open as possible. whilst i appreciate that there are concerns among some with regard to immigration i can honestly say that -for me- the related scaremongering caused by the isolationists is the most worrying aspect of immigration. if you're coming here because you are searching for a better life then you are welcome as far as i'm concerned. end of.
chaos forgive me but i actually agree with cameron on one thing: the west faces a vast variety of serious threats from all over -this is a bad time to be breaking friendly ties with our neighbours and a bad time to fragment europe.

i will add other opinions as and when they occur to me. watch this space...

[Stephanie]

I think we must look at facts and data and not personalities. I really do not care who wants us to leave. In fact I could turn that around and say to you look at who wants us to stay. Cameron for one.

You are absolutely right about that, of course - both, the need to look at facts and Cameron. 

The bit about the facts is going to be really hard - can't be helped, though - but what can you do?

[ldopas]

It is hard Stephanie I agree. The amount of crap that is thrown around by everyone is like wading through treacle to get at the core of the issue. But it is so important for us all I think.

The issue really is as I see it, removing the chaff a bit, is do we want to be part of an ever closer union with Europe or not. And by union we mean one state, subjugation of some/many of each countries national decision making into one amorphous mass. In essence the country would be called Europe.

Lots of people are worried about the concept of amorphous mass states. There is evidence for example that the US/Canada/Mexico want/wanted to form the NAU the North American Union and have....guess what...one currency. When elites want to herd currencies, countries, states into one block, alarm bells should sound. They do in my head anyway! 

This is a stated aim of many of the countries. Britain never signed up for this. That is not being rude it is a fact. In fact I'm unaware that any other member was asked that either, but they do not seem as concerned which is fine. Now I'm not saying this is wrong, I'm not saying we have had treaties our weaselly politicians signed up to that didn't ratify the ever closer policy. But it seems to matter to us for a multiplicity of reasons. So we want a vote.

My feeling is that we will stay in and I think that vote will not be as close as people think. For example only 11% of 18 to 29s want to leave. And that is fine, that is democracy.

For me, people like Cameron, Gove, Corbyn, gulp Galloway are a complete irrelevance to me. They don't run my business or family, they will still have their nailed on cushy career politicians salary and pension to look forward to. So I think we must look at data on how it will effect us.

IF we go, and I do not think we will, there seems to be some sort of thought that we hate Europe. I believe the complete opposite and we still will be part of Europe. Trade will continue, because that is its nature. We will still be friends. We must still cooperate for security for all. We share so many values between us that will continue.

ps I know what some of you are thinking. Bloody ldopas doesn't post for a month and now we cannot shut the bugger up!   

[Pol]

Firstly I hope your well idopas.
For me the problem is being ruled by Brussels , I'm all for free trade, open boarders, working together for the greater good of everyone. I think were being driven apart by stupid rules that doesn't suit this country and many others. Surprised that nobody has mentioned that Europe costs us £55 million everyday